Even though the xD and the new xB are one size apart in engines, the 1.8 in the xD is newly reworked, adding variable timing on the exhaust valves, whereas the xB's engine is a carryover from the existing RAV4 and Camry. So the price of the two may be very close even though they are a size apart in engines.
However, from a marketing POV, I still think they will be shooting for some sort of "magic number", like $14,995. Which would make it about $650 less than the xB, unless that price were to include destination.
At $15-15.5K, it would be very competitively priced if you consider competing NON-Toyota vehicles, and the xD's standard feature set.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
At $15-15.5K, it would be very competitively priced if you consider competing NON-Toyota vehicles, and the xD's standard feature set.
very true, the xd has a long standard list; the only one to out do it for bang for buck would be the rabbit, which at this price only offers two doors (but a richer interior.)
Of course the new Rabbit for '08 has the newly revised 170 hp engine, so I wonder how long the rock-bottom $14,9 base price will be hanging around?
And feature for feature the xD almost matches the base Rabbit - they are very close. You trade the power (and standard rear discs? I forget) of the Rabbit for the fuel economy and the two extra doors of the xD. With the Fit providing a third flavor for about the same money in the Sport trim.
And didja hear? For not much more money, there will soon be a Lancer Sportback available again, with power slotting in between the xD and Rabbit and most of the same standard amenities.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And feature for feature the xD almost matches the base Rabbit - they are very close. You trade the power (and standard rear discs? I forget) of the Rabbit for the fuel economy and the two extra doors of the xD. With the Fit providing a third flavor for about the same money in the Sport trim.
The rabbit will spend a lot of time sitting in the repair shop. I owned an original rabbit many years ago long before they changed the name to Golf. I was run off the road on a blind corner and of course the guy didn't stop so my car was totalled by the time the estimate was finished. It was a good car handled great and got good economy but expensive to maintain and when something went wrong I would have no car for 2-3 days while they fixed it. If you own a VW you really need a spare car for when it's in the shop and VW does not give you a loaner car either. If the reliability went up (maybe actually make them in Germany?) it would be different but the Toyota built Scion and the Honda Fit are most likely going to be very reliable. I've already owned a 1.3L Jazz and it's a great city car more fun than my old rabbit but needs better tires. I'm going to need a second car for my wife and I think the Fit might be good but also the Scion xD is a real possibility. I sure won't pay sticker never mind OVER sticker for any car. Honda dealers have a bad habit of doing just that. :mad:
The scion dealers do have quite a mark up in most parts of the country. The call it the doc fee which is pure profit. Often 400 dollars on top of the 500 to 700 dollars they make from the factory in addition to the dealer installed parts they over charge on. Overall for the price of the car scion dealers do very well on gross profit when you consider it as a % of the base price of the car. Better than all in the same category of cars. But a lancer hatchback is news to me! I'd like to see that car but all in all mitsu has very lacking mpg. I'm surprised that a japanese maker would offer cars in the US with domestic car mpg but they are nice. But gas is 3.49 for regular in my neighborhood. My new car has got to get excellent mpg. And speaking of great mpg I was at a toyota dealer yesterday looking at the new over priced xB and saw the yaris hatch. The reviews about the car have not been very good but the car does not look that bad. With TRD suspension installed it might be a decent little ride. If it had the new xD motor in it I would snatch it up today. The sales rep I spoke with said he can't give them away. Maybe that is just in the city. Where you live are you seeing many yaris cars out and about. The mpg on it is very good.
The local Toyota dealer here does not seem to ever have a Prius or Yaris on the lot. If they do, it lasts usually a few weeks at most.
I live in a dead industrial town turned truck stop with a lot of retired, poor industrial workers. So even in the recent month I have seen a slew of new-to-the-road scooters, Yaris, Priuses, Geo Metros,etc.
I, too, am a fan of the Yaris hatchback.
I have not researched this...but does VW still do the wonky wiring? ..didn't they run everything in series?
The rabbit's 150 hp with 170 torque is very nice on paper but in reality that car will be a constant drain on your patience and pocket imo. But I priced the yaris last night on toyota.com and bring it up to safety standards prices it at 14,300. But since its a regular toyota and in my area they are collecting dust in dealers I could get it a grand less. But I'd have to add a aftermarket cruise since toyota does not offer it on the hatch model and no tach on the hatch is also a strike against it. So the only way I'd buy a yaris is if scion over prices the xD and none of the other makers have anything new out. I really wish mazda would hurry up with the redesigned 3. I bet that ride is going to be solid. :shades:
I have been very tempted more than once to get a Yaris hatch. The lack of a tach has kept me away. I like having a tach.
You can get a tach and the cruise by going with the sedan and buying the power package, but now you are looking at a $14-15K car, and the pedals are spaced too close together for my feet. Plus I much prefer the looks of the hatch to those of the sedan.
So I will stick with my old Echo for a while. The xD looks tempting, although I instantly dislike that silly looking gauge arrangement, with the tach arrayed like a fuel gauge on the other side of the speedo. And then it won't get near the Echo for fuel economy. The fuel economy of the current small cars on the market is very disappointing to me.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The rabbit will spend a lot of time sitting in the repair shop. I owned an original rabbit many years ago long before they changed the name to Golf.
really? you know this for a fact? because mine has not spent anytime. (i'll assume you are still talking about the current gen rabbit, but basing your opinion on the prev gen golf.)
i guess vw dealers vary, but i don't see the need for a loaner anytime soon.
the rabbit is totally made in germany save for the engine which has german components and it sourced from mexico. Reliability for the mkV rabbits has much improved over their previous generation. I agree that reliability would probably be better on the fit, and the scion after a few years, but my bunny is no headache unless i go to the dealer and specifically ask for a '___mile service' and not just an oil change.
The rabbit's 150 hp with 170 torque is very nice on paper but in reality that car will be a constant drain on your patience and pocket imo
yup, DEF in your opinion, because not only is the power/torque (power is going to be up to 170 by the way) not only good on paper, but in real world driving too.
And the REALITY is that it hasn't been any kind of drain on patience...while probably not as cheap as an xd, it realatively low price makes up for its fuel disadvantage when compared to say a comparably equipped 20k civic or mazda 3. so the pocket is doing good.
i cant wait to see an xd in person. and with all the trd add ons it should be VERY fun to drive. I wish honda was more proactive about factory performance like toyota and vw are: lots of warranty safe mods that while a little expensive, have perfect fit and finish.
really? you know this for a fact? because mine has not spent anytime. (i'll assume you are still talking about the current gen rabbit, but basing your opinion on the prev gen golf.)
Lucky you! because I've owned a few VW's as has my family and many friends, yes including NEW models Jetta, Golf, Passat and New Beetle. My ex-GF had a new beetle and loved it. She had the aftermarket wheels that looked like flowers. Anyway it was always in the shop for something. My friend who is a doctor he loved his Passat until after about a year the thing be came very problematic. Some of my co-workers have been real diehard VW fans but like Jeep owners wished their cars were more reliable. Many people like the VW but it just costs too damn much when something breaks out of warranty and they often have enough problems within warranty. I'm happy that you have no problems with yours....yet. But that just isn't the norm. i tried to find the JD Powers survey that shows manufacturer initial problems for various makes but I could only find the one with the 1-5 star rating. VW's break, and often is my personal experience and that of people I know but they are loyal so they keep the car. One guy was royally screwed when he wanted a ride into work and found out I couldn't do it any longer as I had changed jobs, his VW Golf was always broken down it was like 3-4 years old, no idea how many miles on it. He bought it new. He loved that car but I'd say a Chevy Vega or a Ford Pinto or Fairmont would have been 10 times more reliable. The dealers in my area were not the nicest people and always tried to squirm out of fixing anything under warranty. So you can have VW, they blew their chance with me and probably many other people as well. But never fear I hear MINI is catching up to VW as far as poor service and poor reliability goes. Maybe VW won't be at the bottom any more? When you get ripped off a few times you decide to not go through the hell that is VW again. Too bad because I would love to have a diesel.
I wish honda would get off its ### and give us the diesel civic thats been on sale for a while overseas and a 2nd gen Fit. And mazda, where is the new 3? We need more small cars. Gas prices are never going down again. The xD seems to me the best thing going until the later part of next year at the earliest. And we don't even know if the xD is going to be any good although it seems very promising. But I have to agree that the tach on it looks lame. I'd rather have a regular old tach .
"But I have to agree that the tach on it looks lame"
Thank you! Yes! Who on Earth thought that stupid thing looked good? Not only ISN'T it very stylish, its functionality is compromised IMO. I am sure that it is going to be hard to read, with the speedo going the other direction on the same dial. Dumb.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
yes including NEW models Jetta, Golf, Passat and New Beetle.
the new beetle was very poor in reliability the first couple years it was out. i know a couple of people who have later versions...and no problems.
newer golfs? ok. then they are not mkV's. Because the rabbit namplate is exclusive to the mkV platform and the only one you'll find with a 'golf' name plate is in germany. the difference between reliability/quality between the mkIV and mkV is HUGE.
if they are so awful, why did your family continue to buy newer vw's?
As a replacement for a 2001 Sienna!! (Our family is getting smaller, but I thought I'd have a hard time getting her out of that giant purse.) And she's ready to give up the third seat and the V6. So from my perspective, the xB is not overpriced at $16,230. I see it as a Camry wagon, with basic interior trim.
Fortunately our Scion/Toyota/Lexus dealer doesn't do any additional markups.
if they are so awful, why did your family continue to buy newer vw's?
My family gave up on VW after many years of owning them and I think the last VW they owned was the dasher so that ought to date it for you. Me I bought a Golf back around 1990-91. I have had friends and others buy VW's and to put in in perspective the Dasher was on par according to my father far worse than the Chevy Vega he owned which he said was the absolute worst piece of trash he'd ever bought! My parents switched in Buicks for about 10 years then my Mom couldn't get what she wanted in a mid size wagon so she ended up going over to Subaru and was very happy with her Subaru's until she died. My father won't give up his Lesabre for any other car and his is like 10-11 years old and looks like it came out of the showroom.
Friends on the other hand have all tried VW, well not all, but more than a few and co-workers have as well. VW has screwed them all over. I've heard the complaints again and again and I tell them VW did the same to me. Ask around and you'll find that if a brand is always bad fro you you just vote with your wallet ad buy something else. What is VW going to offer me or anyone else to convince us that they are now reliable? The cars are expensive and overpriced and the dealers are things I can't say in a public forum. If the quality is so huge between the MkIV and the MkV, what does that tell you? I've owned a LOT of cars both new and used and I have no intention of typing them all out for you. But I will NOT buy a VW, I will NEVER reccomend one to my family or friends under any circumstances and if they want to buy one it's ok, but I tell them don't come crying to me when you have problems with it. You deal with the dealer and the service depts yourself. I will not deal with the VW people any more I used to be the one who would sort it all out especially for co-workers but no longer. I'm happy you like your VW and hope it serves you for many many trouble free miles. But nothing will make me buy a VW again. If I won their new R32 in a lottery I'd sell it as soon as I got the title!
I think it's probably going to be best if I don't really discuss the VW's any more. You like them as do others and I don't. I respect that you like and buy them. I'd easily take the new Scion xD over the rabbit or any other VW. The scion should be reliable and as far as driving it goes I will try one when i get the chance.
In comparing the overall gear ratios (from crankshaft to drive axle), I noticed in the xD specs that the 5th gear in the manual has a higher ratio (3.21) than the 4th gear in the automatic (2.89). That's also true in the xB, 3.10 in the manual versus 2.79 in the automatic. That means for a given speed the automatic should run at lower rpms on the highway than the manual and therefore should use less fuel per mile. But the EPA fuel economy ratings don't bear that out. Any thoughts on why?
5 speeds always do better than 4 speed autos. 4 speed autos do not have enough gears to go through. The higher ratios will simply give the auto similar mpg on the hway as the manual. 4 speed autos never give better or even similar mpg. They are always searching for the proper gear.
Perhaps the EPA highway test procedures assume a lot of hills and variable speeds. That's the only way I can see how the manual tranny could do better on fuel economy with its higher overall gear ratio. The kind of highway driving I do involves long stretches at nearly constant speed in high gear, running on cruise control most of the time. I notice that several drivers of the new xB are claiming to get mpgs in the low 30s, which is well above the 28 mpg highway rating. None of them indicated which tranny they were driving.
It appears scion is just trying to be different to be different with no functional reason in mind. If the tach was inside the speedo and rising in the same manner as every other tach in history, that would be kind of neat and much easier on the eyes as well. I guess our ears are going to be the primary tach on the xD. :confuse: Oh well...
Seems to me that Toyota has a bunch of s all hovering around the Camry: new xB, new RAV4, and Highlander. The new RAV4 and Highlander are SUVs that I see little difference in (other than price).
I've never understood how a front wheel drive vehicle with unibody design (no separate frame) can be a "platform" at all. With finite element structural analysis and CAD seems like each body would be designed from the ground up with engines, brakes, and other parts pulled off the shelf.
Most of the cars I've owned that had a tach were automatics, and all had enough engine noise/vibration to let me know when I was pushing it hard. Modern engines, especially the sizes found in 95% of cars are designed to rev way higher than needed in everyday driving. And the majority of cars today, even small ones, are sold with automatic trannies anyway.
So a tach ends up being pretty pointless. Howver I did test drive a 1989 Integra that was so quiet I needed the tach to know if the engine was running or not when the car was parked.
Seems to me that Toyota has a bunch of vehicles all hovering around the Camry: new xB, new RAV4, and Highlander. The new RAV4 and Highlander are SUVs that I see little difference in (other than price).
I've never understood how a front wheel drive vehicle with unibody design (no separate frame) can be a "platform" at all. With finite element structural analysis and CAD seems like each body would be designed from the ground up with engines, brakes, and other parts pulled off the shelf.
BTW while at the dealership we picked up a Scion brochere that included a section covering the xD. Notable differences with the new xB include larger turning radius, rear drum brakes vs. disc, VSC and traction control optional versus standard, and inclusion of active front headrests. EPA mileage is 25/32 manual and 27/33 automatic.
I'm perplexed that you don't see a difference between the RAV4 and Highlander? The Highlander is some 7 inches longer than the RAV4, many cubes bigger inside, and several hundred pounds heavier. There's also alot of equipment that can be had on the HL, that isn't available on the RAV4?
when the news of the scion xd first came out, it wasn't supposed to have cruise control. i don't know if it was an oversight by the people that did the report or scion changed it's plans due to customer feed back. does anyone know if the lack of armrests is another oversight or it just won't have one?
Scion at first did not want to give standard cc but after the feedback they received from the internet, they changed their tune and gave it standard. Armrests in the xD are optional only and that is no misprint. Its about a 120 dollar option but worth it if you spend a lot of time on the road.
"I'm perplexed that you don't see a difference between the RAV4 and Highlander? The Highlander is some 7 inches longer than the RAV4, many cubes bigger inside, and several hundred pounds heavier. There's also alot of equipment that can be had on the HL, that isn't available on the RAV4?"
But overall is it worth squeezing the market with another medium sized SUV (and abandon the small SUV market)?
I'm certainly not impressed with 7 inches or several hundred pounds. If cubes are important, I'd get another Sienna. For me, any of these are plenty well enough equipped, so more equipment isn't a factor. As almost nobody "needs" a AWD SUV, the entire hybrid SUV concept is an oximoron IME. But price is a huge factor to me.
How well is the Highlander selling since introduction of the new RAV4?
Yes and no. Yes the Highlander is on a Camry ( extended ) frame but it's more Avalon like with just a V6 option. Infact the Highlander is more Lexus-like than a Camry.
Since the Camry is basically a 2.4L sedan the new xB is the long lost offspring of the old Gen 3 Camry. It rides and drives amazingly like a Camry. It's also a blast with a manual tranny with the 2.4L in such a relatively light weight vehicle.
Then you get VSC/Trac and all the airbags standard at a price $2000 less than the base CE Camry now. This may be Toyota's next Prius ( a hidden hit waiting to be discovered ).
I think a hybrid xB would be a good move considering the xB mpg.. Price wise it would not be so hot but still a deal in the hybrid market for biggish cars. I think overall scion made a huge step back on making the 2nd gen xB less efficient than the first. They should have changed the body up a bit and gave it the new 1.8 that is going in the xD. Big step back the way gas prices are going. :lemon:
i found one. its called the rabbit. (it does have 2 doors less, and less room inside, but handles better and is quicker.) You can find the 4 door for marginally more.
OK... since you've already decided on the Rabbit, perhaps it is time to stop mentioning it and praising in the Scion xD discussion. Let's leave this discussion for those who have interest in the xD.
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17K? If you can find one at that price. I saw one last week going for 19333. It was the cheapest one they had. And value? How is getting mpg in the low 20s in the city a value? Its not. What till regular hits 4.50 then tell me about value. Super is 4.45 where I live right now.
2.79 for gallon? You are a very lucky man! I do think I am going to be getting the xD but the new accord coupe with the new A-Vtec is very tempting. The new A-vtec engine sounds fantastic but I'm going to hold off for a while and see if any big problems pop up in the xD and the new accord. First year cars can be ify. I wish I had a 2nd gen mazda 3 and fit to choose from as well but that is not going to happen this year and I can't wait around forever...
My dealer sells all Scions for sticker and 3 of 4 of the new xB's they had in were strictly stock (the 4th had alloy wheels).
Since wifey is sold on the new xB 5M, that leaves me with tough choices for a good alternate car. I'm thinking about an xD 4A, but it's expected price is virtually the same as a XB 5M. Does it make sense that they'd be the same price? Does it make sense to have two such similar cars?
xD is going to be 1000 to 1200k less if scion maintains the first generation models pricing difference. Not to mention you will pay a significantly less at the pump for the xD.
I'm curious about your dealer macmanus? What is the "doc Fee" from the dealer.
The bottom line of Scion stickers at my dealer match Edmunds' stated MRSP. There's no extras for "doc fee", etc. shown. Options are listed on a separate sheet. But I've yet to seriously talk price or purchase. They're the largest dealer in the state and draw customers from the big city 100 miles away.
I really like the dealership. I've seen their limits in terms of service (they can't fix my Mazda's overheating problem) and I've seen them take advantage of females in the service department (talking them into service that only a perfectionist would even consider). OTOH oil changes (including quicky car wash) are only $17 for our Sienna and $23 for the Mazda (didn't buy it there). Sales guys are nice. And they (very affordably) rent cars for a day/week/month. For under $30 I can rent a Corolla for a day (drive 200 miles), get the oil changed, and get reimbursed for the mileage from work (and clear money in the deal :shades: ).
Why don't all dealers rent cars? What a great way to really try one out. I brought home a RAV4 last summer for a night (while the dealer was waiting for Mazda parts that failed to be delivered) which made for a great chance for wifey to try it out.
Doc fees are not posted on the cars. You don't find out how much it is until later. They probably should post what they want to charge for doc fees next to the factory sticker since they charge the fee on all cars rather than springing it on you at the end. Maybe ths will be mandated in the future.
It's a local issue that has nothing to do with the manufacturer. This is why is not on the Maroney label. It is regulated in MD to $99 Max. Across the border in VA it's unregulated but the fee has to be posted conspicuously on the dealership floor. Some stores I've seen do post it as an addendum sticker next to the Maroney label.
I know that it has nothing to do with the manufacturer. That's why I said the dealers should do this themselves. The dealers have no problem posting additional homemade stickers for their preinstalled dealer-installed accessories and "market adjustment."
The dealers should be mandated to also post all their self-made fees such as doc fees or "dealer prep" on these stickers. There is no reason for them to save this until you are signing papers to make the purchase.
Maybe being forced to post it on each car will give them incentive to lower it since they know other dealers might lower theirs as a competitive advantage.
The dealers make up and control these fees. It is not a mandatory fee such as sales tax, license and registration that you have to pay at any dealer.
"... The dealers should be mandated to also post all their self-made fees such as doc fees or "dealer prep" on these stickers. There is no reason for them to save this until you are signing papers to make the purchase."
They save the fees for last because the customer would not get to the papers if the fees were discussed up front.
On my xB, over a couple a visits to the salesman, I got a couple of prices written on the back of his business card. Not until I went to order the car and had to sign a purchase order, did I see there was $900 in 3 items called "documentation", "salesman", and "special benefits package". All were fees and non-negotiable under pure price. So I went to another dealer with lower fees. But evidently a lot of customers who get as far as the purchase order don't back out.
Always remember the first rule of sales. The one who wants the deal the worst, gets the worst deal. If any dealer tries this crap, get up and walk. These BS fees are the reason I probably will not buy a Scion. If I can't find a dealer that does not try to hose me on the xD, I'll probably buy a year old honda civic ex.
You have got a point eldaino. Why pay the depreciation on a new car. A civic with 15k miles is nothing. The car will do 200k easy with a little upkeep. I'm still going to check out the xD and IF I can find a decent dealer, and that is a big IF, I might buy the xD. But I'm not going to limit myself to the xD. A year old civic ex or a mazda 3i will do me just fine. The both have better performance than the xD and mpg as good or better. I just wish the 2nd gen fit would be out this fall. I think honda is going to hit a home run on that one.
This just in from www.scionlife.com A guy who works for a Scion dealer posted it. He always has inside info so I do not doubt his word.
WITH shipping, the xD will be:
manual 15130
auto 15930
I will not likely be buying a xD this fall. I'm going home to honda or moving over to Mazda. Most likely I'll stay with Honda. My old prelude treated me good. Scion got greedy and lost a potential customer. 2k bump up from the xA.. Bad mojo
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However, from a marketing POV, I still think they will be shooting for some sort of "magic number", like $14,995. Which would make it about $650 less than the xB, unless that price were to include destination.
At $15-15.5K, it would be very competitively priced if you consider competing NON-Toyota vehicles, and the xD's standard feature set.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
very true, the xd has a long standard list; the only one to out do it for bang for buck would be the rabbit, which at this price only offers two doors (but a richer interior.)
And feature for feature the xD almost matches the base Rabbit - they are very close. You trade the power (and standard rear discs? I forget) of the Rabbit for the fuel economy and the two extra doors of the xD. With the Fit providing a third flavor for about the same money in the Sport trim.
And didja hear? For not much more money, there will soon be a Lancer Sportback available again, with power slotting in between the xD and Rabbit and most of the same standard amenities.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The rabbit will spend a lot of time sitting in the repair shop. I owned an original rabbit many years ago long before they changed the name to Golf.
I was run off the road on a blind corner and of course the guy didn't stop so my car was totalled by the time the estimate was finished. It was a good car handled great and got good economy but expensive to maintain and when something went wrong I would have no car for 2-3 days while they fixed it.
If you own a VW you really need a spare car for when it's in the shop and VW does not give you a loaner car either.
If the reliability went up (maybe actually make them in Germany?) it would be different but the Toyota built Scion and the Honda Fit are most likely going to be very reliable. I've already owned a 1.3L Jazz and it's a great city car more fun than my old rabbit but needs better tires. I'm going to need a second car for my wife and I think the Fit might be good but also the Scion xD is a real possibility. I sure won't pay sticker never mind OVER sticker for any car. Honda dealers have a bad habit of doing just that. :mad:
The local Toyota dealer here does not seem to ever have a Prius or Yaris on the lot. If they do, it lasts usually a few weeks at most.
I live in a dead industrial town turned truck stop with a lot of retired, poor industrial workers. So even in the recent month I have seen a slew of new-to-the-road scooters, Yaris, Priuses, Geo Metros,etc.
I, too, am a fan of the Yaris hatchback.
I have not researched this...but does VW still do the wonky wiring? ..didn't they run everything in series?
You can get a tach and the cruise by going with the sedan and buying the power package, but now you are looking at a $14-15K car, and the pedals are spaced too close together for my feet. Plus I much prefer the looks of the hatch to those of the sedan.
So I will stick with my old Echo for a while. The xD looks tempting, although I instantly dislike that silly looking gauge arrangement, with the tach arrayed like a fuel gauge on the other side of the speedo. And then it won't get near the Echo for fuel economy. The fuel economy of the current small cars on the market is very disappointing to me.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
pricing is going up a couple hundred bucks, but nothing out of the ordinairy. Yep rear discs are standard.
really? you know this for a fact? because mine has not spent anytime. (i'll assume you are still talking about the current gen rabbit, but basing your opinion on the prev gen golf.)
i guess vw dealers vary, but i don't see the need for a loaner anytime soon.
the rabbit is totally made in germany save for the engine which has german components and it sourced from mexico. Reliability for the mkV rabbits has much improved over their previous generation. I agree that reliability would probably be better on the fit, and the scion after a few years, but my bunny is no headache unless i go to the dealer and specifically ask for a '___mile service' and not just an oil change.
yup, DEF in your opinion, because not only is the power/torque (power is going to be up to 170 by the way) not only good on paper, but in real world driving too.
And the REALITY is that it hasn't been any kind of drain on patience...while probably not as cheap as an xd, it realatively low price makes up for its fuel disadvantage when compared to say a comparably equipped 20k civic or mazda 3. so the pocket is doing good.
i cant wait to see an xd in person. and with all the trd add ons it should be VERY fun to drive. I wish honda was more proactive about factory performance like toyota and vw are: lots of warranty safe mods that while a little expensive, have perfect fit and finish.
Lucky you! because I've owned a few VW's as has my family and many friends, yes including NEW models Jetta, Golf, Passat and New Beetle.
My ex-GF had a new beetle and loved it. She had the aftermarket wheels that looked like flowers. Anyway it was always in the shop for something. My friend who is a doctor he loved his Passat until after about a year the thing be came very problematic. Some of my co-workers have been real diehard VW fans but like Jeep owners wished their cars were more reliable. Many people like the VW but it just costs too damn much when something breaks out of warranty and they often have enough problems within warranty. I'm happy that you have no problems with yours....yet. But that just isn't the norm. i tried to find the JD Powers survey that shows manufacturer initial problems for various makes but I could only find the one with the 1-5 star rating.
VW's break, and often is my personal experience and that of people I know but they are loyal so they keep the car. One guy was royally screwed when he wanted a ride into work and found out I couldn't do it any longer as I had changed jobs, his VW Golf was always broken down it was like 3-4 years old, no idea how many miles on it. He bought it new. He loved that car but I'd say a Chevy Vega or a Ford Pinto or Fairmont would have been 10 times more reliable.
The dealers in my area were not the nicest people and always tried to squirm out of fixing anything under warranty.
So you can have VW, they blew their chance with me and probably many other people as well. But never fear I hear MINI is catching up to VW as far as poor service and poor reliability goes. Maybe VW won't be at the bottom any more?
When you get ripped off a few times you decide to not go through the hell that is VW again. Too bad because I would love to have a diesel.
Thank you! Yes! Who on Earth thought that stupid thing looked good? Not only ISN'T it very stylish, its functionality is compromised IMO. I am sure that it is going to be hard to read, with the speedo going the other direction on the same dial. Dumb.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
the new beetle was very poor in reliability the first couple years it was out. i know a couple of people who have later versions...and no problems.
newer golfs? ok. then they are not mkV's. Because the rabbit namplate is exclusive to the mkV platform and the only one you'll find with a 'golf' name plate is in germany. the difference between reliability/quality between the mkIV and mkV is HUGE.
if they are so awful, why did your family continue to buy newer vw's?
Fortunately our Scion/Toyota/Lexus dealer doesn't do any additional markups.
My family gave up on VW after many years of owning them and I think the last VW they owned was the dasher so that ought to date it for you. Me I bought a Golf back around 1990-91. I have had friends and others buy VW's and to put in in perspective the Dasher was on par according to my father far worse than the Chevy Vega he owned which he said was the absolute worst piece of trash he'd ever bought! My parents switched in Buicks for about 10 years then my Mom couldn't get what she wanted in a mid size wagon so she ended up going over to Subaru and was very happy with her Subaru's until she died. My father won't give up his Lesabre for any other car and his is like 10-11 years old and looks like it came out of the showroom.
Friends on the other hand have all tried VW, well not all, but more than a few and co-workers have as well.
VW has screwed them all over. I've heard the complaints again and again and I tell them VW did the same to me.
Ask around and you'll find that if a brand is always bad fro you you just vote with your wallet ad buy something else. What is VW going to offer me or anyone else to convince us that they are now reliable?
The cars are expensive and overpriced and the dealers are things I can't say in a public forum.
If the quality is so huge between the MkIV and the MkV, what does that tell you?
I've owned a LOT of cars both new and used and I have no intention of typing them all out for you. But I will NOT buy a VW, I will NEVER reccomend one to my family or friends under any circumstances and if they want to buy one it's ok, but I tell them don't come crying to me when you have problems with it. You deal with the dealer and the service depts yourself. I will not deal with the VW people any more I used to be the one who would sort it all out especially for co-workers but no longer.
I'm happy you like your VW and hope it serves you for many many trouble free miles. But nothing will make me buy a VW again. If I won their new R32 in a lottery I'd sell it as soon as I got the title!
I think it's probably going to be best if I don't really discuss the VW's any more. You like them as do others and I don't. I respect that you like and buy them.
I'd easily take the new Scion xD over the rabbit or any other VW. The scion should be reliable and as far as driving it goes I will try one when i get the chance.
Based on size, the Highlander (Camry platform) is a Camry wagon, the Matrix (Corolla platform) is the Corolla wagon, and the XD is the Yaris wagon.
Oh well...
I've never understood how a front wheel drive vehicle with unibody design (no separate frame) can be a "platform" at all. With finite element structural analysis and CAD seems like each body would be designed from the ground up with engines, brakes, and other parts pulled off the shelf.
So a tach ends up being pretty pointless. Howver I did test drive a 1989 Integra that was so quiet I needed the tach to know if the engine was running or not when the car was parked.
I've never understood how a front wheel drive vehicle with unibody design (no separate frame) can be a "platform" at all. With finite element structural analysis and CAD seems like each body would be designed from the ground up with engines, brakes, and other parts pulled off the shelf.
BTW while at the dealership we picked up a Scion brochere that included a section covering the xD. Notable differences with the new xB include larger turning radius, rear drum brakes vs. disc, VSC and traction control optional versus standard, and inclusion of active front headrests. EPA mileage is 25/32 manual and 27/33 automatic.
But overall is it worth squeezing the market with another medium sized SUV (and abandon the small SUV market)?
I'm certainly not impressed with 7 inches or several hundred pounds. If cubes are important, I'd get another Sienna. For me, any of these are plenty well enough equipped, so more equipment isn't a factor. As almost nobody "needs" a AWD SUV, the entire hybrid SUV concept is an oximoron IME. But price is a huge factor to me.
How well is the Highlander selling since introduction of the new RAV4?
Since the Camry is basically a 2.4L sedan the new xB is the long lost offspring of the old Gen 3 Camry. It rides and drives amazingly like a Camry. It's also a blast with a manual tranny with the 2.4L in such a relatively light weight vehicle.
Then you get VSC/Trac and all the airbags standard at a price $2000 less than the base CE Camry now. This may be Toyota's next Prius ( a hidden hit waiting to be discovered ).
If you want economy, get the xD. Want value, get the xB.
DrFill
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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
BTW, C&D tested the Rabbit at 8.1, 0-60. :surprise:
My gas is 2.79 regular.
DrFill
Since wifey is sold on the new xB 5M, that leaves me with tough choices for a good alternate car. I'm thinking about an xD 4A, but it's expected price is virtually the same as a XB 5M. Does it make sense that they'd be the same price? Does it make sense to have two such similar cars?
I'm curious about your dealer macmanus? What is the "doc Fee" from the dealer.
I really like the dealership. I've seen their limits in terms of service (they can't fix my Mazda's overheating problem) and I've seen them take advantage of females in the service department (talking them into service that only a perfectionist would even consider). OTOH oil changes (including quicky car wash) are only $17 for our Sienna and $23 for the Mazda (didn't buy it there). Sales guys are nice. And they (very affordably) rent cars for a day/week/month. For under $30 I can rent a Corolla for a day (drive 200 miles), get the oil changed, and get reimbursed for the mileage from work (and clear money in the deal :shades: ).
Why don't all dealers rent cars? What a great way to really try one out. I brought home a RAV4 last summer for a night (while the dealer was waiting for Mazda parts that failed to be delivered) which made for a great chance for wifey to try it out.
They probably should post what they want to charge for doc fees next to the factory sticker since they charge the fee on all cars rather than springing it on you at the end. Maybe ths will be mandated in the future.
The dealers have no problem posting additional homemade stickers for their preinstalled dealer-installed accessories and "market adjustment."
The dealers should be mandated to also post all their self-made fees such as doc fees or "dealer prep" on these stickers. There is no reason for them to save this until you are signing papers to make the purchase.
Maybe being forced to post it on each car will give them incentive to lower it since they know other dealers might lower theirs as a competitive advantage.
The dealers make up and control these fees. It is not a mandatory fee such as sales tax, license and registration that you have to pay at any dealer.
They save the fees for last because the customer would not get to the papers if the fees were discussed up front.
On my xB, over a couple a visits to the salesman, I got a couple of prices written on the back of his business card. Not until I went to order the car and had to sign a purchase order, did I see there was $900 in 3 items called "documentation", "salesman", and "special benefits package". All were fees and non-negotiable under pure price. So I went to another dealer with lower fees. But evidently a lot of customers who get as far as the purchase order don't back out.
xD, I'll probably buy a year old honda civic ex.
I just wish the 2nd gen fit would be out this fall. I think honda is going to hit a home run on that one.
WITH shipping, the xD will be:
manual 15130
auto 15930
I will not likely be buying a xD this fall. I'm going home to honda or moving over to Mazda. Most likely I'll stay with Honda. My old prelude treated me good. Scion got greedy and lost a potential customer. 2k bump up from the xA.. Bad mojo