you're complaining about a car that with shipping, and including power everything, decent sound, ABS, side curtains, better power, impressive fuel efficiency... stickers at $15,200?
to each his own i guess. the accent hatch has a lot of nice features, not as good as a stereo, but i wouldn't pay 16k for it when i can get a used civic for a bit more.
This is the expected xD pricing, but I agree - its too high. :lemon:
The gap between xD and xB has remained the same ($1,300) even though the xB now has a bigger/proven engine. (xB is 4 inches wider inside, 4 inches more rear leg room, 15 cubic feet more interior space, and 3 gallon bigger gas tank.) Scion must be banking on the need for better mileage (22/28 for the xB and 26/32 for xD).
A similarly equipped Yaris is $2200 cheaper than the xD, and has been proven with a well known engine. And with Yaris you can strip it down and save another $1200. This price gap would be further inflated if dealers are piling on additional charges to Scion prices. Note that interior/exterior dimensions of the two cars are very similar, with the two additional doors on the xD being the biggest difference. According to Edmunds owner discussions folks seem to adjust quickly to the center mounted instruments in the Yaris and overall are enjoying the car.
I guess Scion really doesn't want to sell anything but the xB and tC. :confuse:
Well if setting the bar at a six year old model and then not topping it is impressive to you, we just have different definitions of the word impressive, that's all. Fit's FE isn't impressive for such a small light car either.
Will there be a diesel or a hybrid in xD's future, do you think?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't think toyota will put a diesel or a battery in a scion. With the new epa numbers the civic is still rated at 36 mpg on the hway. I can get a 06 civic ex with less than 15 thousand miles out the door for 17k. That smokes a xD due to the fact the stock xD is ugly. If it looked good in base form it would be a deal to me but after I drop a grand on new wheels and tires from tirerack and a couple of hundred on a good tint job and pay the jacked up dealer doc fees, the scion xD starts looking over priced. A one year old civic ex looks good in its base form w/o any add ons and has better mpg, better power, better ride quality on the hway, better safety record as well as its a proven performer. The new engine toyota is putting in the xD is unproven. It might be great but still it and the car are in its first model year and that is a strike against it. I wanted to buy the xD but at this price point from a scion "jack up the fees" dealer I just don't see it happening. I really wanted to like this car Thanks Scion:lemon:
The engine in the xD is the same old engine from the last dozen years of Corolla, it just has VVt on both sides now, that's all. Calling it unproven is going a bit far.
Also, I would suggest you actually wait until the car is here to drive it before making back-to-back assertions about highway ride with other models.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I can't spec out an '07 Yaris h/b with 4 doors, ABS, side curtains, power windows, locks, mirrors and an impressive sounds system with a 5M at $13,000, which is the claim you're making....
In fact, with 2 doors, significantly less power, a plain sound system.... the cheapest I can keep it comparably equipped is $14,500...
ABS and side curtains don't mean squat to me. Frankly I'd rather not have ABS as it engages too soon/often on snow or ice (especially on GMs but even on my '97 Camry). And I'd trade both for better brakes/tires in a heartbeat. I'd rather have more control to avoid s to start with. Apart from these items I priced out a Yaris here at Edmunds, so I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from.
I have a $5000 stereo at home (plus a second stereo plus a separate HT system) and IMO it's stupid to think you can hear true fidelity above road/engine/wind noise (especially in an inexpensive hatchback). So again, fancy car radios don't show up at all on my radar screen.
Yes, Yaris has less horsepower, but how the extra power in the xD translates into real world driving (or even test track numbers) is yet to be seen. As Yaris weighs about 400 pounds (15%) less than xD it is probably close to a performance tie.
Yes, Yaris hatchbacks are 2 doors, not 4 (as I mentioned previously). As this would be a commuter car for me alone to drive 2 doors and power windows/locks/mirrors don't much matter either. (The $2200 difference in pricing I did included power windows/doors, but you could save another $500 by deleting them.)
I'm not saying that Yaris would be a nicer car than xD, just that comparing size, features, and expected performance the xD is pricey. And since Yaris doesn't have much of a mark-up its almost like Scion pricing (without the Scion dealer add-on fees).
xA and xD are both 4 door well equipped economy hatchbacks (and the cheapest offering) from the same company. I'd say that makes them very comparable, with the biggest differnce being the move from a 1.5L to a 1.8L engine. The xD is $1,800 more than 2006 xA (from Edmunds).
As the 2007 Camry CE cost $2,300 more than the 2008 xB (from Edmunds), where will that put Corolla pricing compared to xD? Again, too high I fear.
Pound for pound a yaris hatchback is a better deal than the xD. I can get the yaris for invoice were I live with no fees. Just tax tag title. If they were priced the same I'd probably take the xD with no fees but that is not going to happen. The xD will sell for sticker plus hundreds of dealer fees. Their will be people willing to give dealers their money w/o dealing. When I sold cars we called those types, "lay downs". The yaris gets much much better hway milage than any other non hybrid on the road hands down. Between those two, the yaris hatch 5 speed is a steal. :P
That's fine that ABS and side curtains don't mean anything to you, but in effort to construct a valid comparison, I think its important to compare apples to apples. The Yaris, at MSRP - which, for all intents and purposes the standard of comparison (since purchase price varies on what? a thousand different factors for the Yaris), is not that far off the xD's pricing.
Your blanket statement was that the xD is $2200 more than the Yaris, but REALLY what you meant was that the xD stickers for $2200 more than the Yaris YOU'D buy - sans abs, side curtains, modern conveniences, etc. That's fine, I just found it misleading.
At the end of the day, I'm sure Toyota could care less - they've now got 5 different models to cover buyer choice in the sub $20K arena (6 if you count Yaris h/b and sedan separately). If you buy a Yaris instead of an xD, the company is no worse off... ~alpha
No Scion dealer charges less than sticker. And sticker is pretty low, for what you get so......if you can get a car with the features a Scion has for the price, please, let us all in on it. :surprise:
alpha01, you're right as I blew right through the stuff that didn't matter to me. Probably shows that I'd make a lousy salesperson.
I just re-read Consumer Union's review of the Yaris, and it's not real pretty. Like the Cobalt/Cavalier upgrade, the Yaris/Echo upgrade was a welcomed improvement but still not satisfying when compared to the competition. Apparently its the Toyota name that is selling it (efficiency and reliability being good things).
As I put 25,000 - 30,000 miles on per year, I want satisfying and economical. So I might be back to the xD. If wifey is set on a new xB, I wanted something a bit different. The new Corolla would fill that bill but I can't see paying more for it than a xB (as the expected pricing would dictate). OTOH the early owner comments here at Edmunds for the new xB are quite glowing with highway fuel economy rated into the low 30s. So for $1300 more for much more of a car, I'm torn. :confuse:
New vs. used is an apples vs. oranges scenario, not a valid comparison.
BTW around here year old Honda/Toyota products typically sell for $1000 less than current new prices, making the used option pretty pointless (to give up warrantee and better interest rates on loans).
I snagged the quote below from car & Driver and it makes me wonder if the Scion xD will be any good. I mean Daihatsu was just an awful car maker and now theyare making the xB and teh xD for Toyota nd on top of that C&D really lambasted the xB. I think the Scion xD needs a test drive but Daihatsu :confuse: That makes me worry. Here is the quote
"It didn't’t fail. Daihatsu assembled the original Scion xB, supplies the new xB and xD to Toyota, and sells a version of the ’08 xB as the Daihatsu Materia. Your homework: Google the Daihatsu Tanto, the Daihatsu Mira Gino, and the (defunct) Daihatsu Naked. We can’t help feeling that this corn-fed, overweight, thoroughly Americanized xB represents a squandered opportunity to give us something really different."
What makes you think Daihatsu is an awful carmaker? Their cars tend to last forever. The only reason Daihatsu left the States is because the type of cars they make were not big enough to be well-suited to this country. In Japan Daihatsu is the second biggest kei-car manufacturer.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What makes you think Daihatsu is an awful carmaker? Their cars tend to last forever. The only reason Daihatsu left the States is because the type of cars they make were not big enough to be well-suited to this country. In Japan Daihatsu is the second biggest kei-car manufacturer.
basically try and name a decent car they ever made or sold here. Ask anyone who owned one if they were any good and you'll find people using very bad words to describe them. One guy told me they make Hyundai's look like a BMW! They have also been compared to Yugo's. Overseas models, i can't say. but I never met anyone who liked a Daihatsu.
I remember the short run for Daihatsu, but they brought a small car that was of an old design. They also had better options for a small car than anyone else, but they priced them too high. They tried to tout themselves as the Mercedes of small cars. Since Toyota owns more than 50%, you would not think they would be known as a bad car.
I remember the short run for Daihatsu, but they brought a small car that was of an old design. They also had better options for a small car than anyone else, but they priced them too high. They tried to tout themselves as the Mercedes of small cars. Since Toyota owns more than 50%, you would not think they would be known as a bad car.
Either way the bottom line is who would buy a new and improved Yugo? :confuse: daihatsu screwed up for whatever reason and they have been gone a long time. Hyundai has worked very hard to get from the bottom of the barrel to the middle of the barrel. i'm not saying the xD will be an awful car but for me the fact it is actually a Daihatsu will affect my decision at some point. The Honda Fit has really uncomfortable seats and doesn't easily get the economy it should. I had a 2005 Jazz so i know first hand about that. The Scion xD has possibilities but it's brand new model and now a Daihatsu made one. If Honda only made wagons like before instead of SUV's. Still I'll have to test drive one first.
Actually the new ist (xD) is built in Toyota's Takaoka plant along with the Vitz, Ractis and Japanese Corolla. The original xB was assembled by Central Motor Co., and the tC by Toyota at the Tsutsumi plant. That quote is missing some homework as well.
Dropped my care off for service and the dealership had a grey metallic xD 4A for $16,180 (included $155 floor mats and destination charges). The saleguy professed no knowledge of dealer add-on pricing gimmicks. This is good news. He was nice enough to open it up for us.
Gauges are electric (nothing to see until the engine starts). The odd dash design around the gauges didn’t feel as awkward as they appear in photos. Everything looked well built and fit me (5’-7”) very well. There are four cup holders, the center ones are small. You sit up quite chair like (I like that). There’s lots of back seat leg room (with the seats moved all the way back, they have 6 inches of travel). With the driver’s seat about where I’d have it, I had 5 inches of room from my knees to back of the front seat. However the rear seat headrest when down hit my upper back and had to be extended quite a ways up for proper adult fit (probably a child safety thing that they go that low).
Obviously the “trunk” is small, but has a number of cubbies around the spare and of course those rear seats can move forward. The car is already prepped for XM.
Under the hood things looked less promising. Self-serving won’t be easy as the engine compartment is fairly tight (however the hood opens nearly 90 degrees). Some disassembly of fuse boxes, etc. would be required to change headlamps. Checking fluid levels are easy enough, but the green battery light is tucked under the wiper/fire wall such that it’s hard to see (at least in full daylight).
The new xB is almost truck like in comparison (heavier, bigger, more powerful). The xD should get about 20% better fuel economy. I’m not planning on buying until next summer, so I’ll probably wait to take test drives for a while. But my early choices are xB, xD, new Corolla, and Civic. For the 25-30,000 miles a year I do mostly by myself, the xD looks the most promising.
As I said on the xB thread, I take what CarandDriver says with a grain of salt. I cancelled my subscripton years ago. The Daihatsu Materia IS the new xB in Japan. Toyota Japan owns Daihatsu, Hino, AND Lexus. As far as Daihatsu supplying the new xD and the xA I don't know for sure. But if they do build the new one there's no reason to think it will not be as good as the first xA or ist. Mackabee
I can't believe you fell for that one! :confuse: Sounds like that was a dealership scam, I would have run out of there as fast as I could. I would call Scion USA and file a complaint. They may charge you a processing fee as long as they are charging it to every customer. "salesman" and "special benefits" are nothing but a scam. You can purchase the car at any Scion dealer since the price is the same. The only difference will be the dealer's processing fee or doc fee. Mackabee
As I said on the xB thread, I take what CarandDriver says with a grain of salt. I cancelled my subscription years ago. The Daihatsu Materia IS the new xB in Japan. Toyota Japan owns Daihatsu, Hino, AND Lexus. As far as Daihatsu supplying the new xD and the xA I don't know for sure. But if they do build the new one there's no reason to think it will not be as good as the first xA or ist.
I have no idea who builds it or where I know Toyota owns Scion but that's about it. As far as Car & Driver goes usually they are ok about most of what they print. Motor Trend on the other hand is so obviously biased depending on who gets the most advertising that it's like watching pro-wrestlling and thinking that the outcome of the match isn't predetermined. Hopefuly build quality will be good.
Its not a bad looking car when you get to see it in person although it requires new wheels/tires to look decent imo. The main problem I have with it is the price and scion dealers. BTW Honda is will be bringing the 2.2 diesel civic for MY 2009. Its worth waiting for. :shades:
Its not a bad looking car when you get to see it in person although it requires new wheels/tires to look decent imo. The main problem I have with it is the price and scion dealers. BTW Honda is will be bringing the 2.2 diesel civic for MY 2009. Its worth waiting for.
What problems do you have with the Scion dealers? We are seriously considering the Scion as a second car for my wife and I don't care about steel wheels in fact I LOVE it! Now I can buy whatever wheels I want aftermarket and use the stock steel ones for winter tires,so for me that's a plus.
I haven't heard about the Civic as a diesel, do you have a link? I have heard the Accord will be available as a late 2008 model but that's not official. Give me a diesel accord any day and it's a real world 50mpg!
50 mph baby!
See you in the Sloooooow lane :P I think you meant 50 mpg!
I'd really like to hear about your experiences with the Scion dealers tho.
What problems do you have with the Scion dealers and the price? The price is clearly stated on the window stickers and on the Scion websites. There is the pure price philosophy which states Scions are sold with no haggle prices a la Saturn. If the dealers you are going to are adding bogus fees find another dealer. Plain and simple. Mack
I test drove two xDs over the weekend, expecting to be a new owner by Sunday night. I currently drive an 06 xA, which I've owned since Sept 06. Both test drives of the xD were disappointing. The xD has just as choppy a ride as the xA, the noise level seemed higher, and the added engine power did not provide much more acceleration, perhaps because of the additional 300 lbs of weight.
One of the features on the xD I was looking forward to is the cruise control. I couldn't find any indicator light on the dash showing when the cruise control was on. Could it be that Scion added cruise control at the last moment and had no provisions for an indicator light?
Too bad. It seemed like a good cheap car on paper (except for styling and only a 4-speed automatic) that you could get all the basic features most people need and want plus stability control on, but the bumpy and noisy ride destroys it. I also don't like the Scion radios that look just like an aftermarket radio (meaning they may get stolen by people who think they are aftermrket stereos).
Scion Dealers are notorious for charging high doc fees. 300 to 900 dollars and if you live in a metro area that has several scion dealers they all seem to magically have the same fees. Hmmmm? Wonder what that is all about? And they try to come off with," Its pure pricing, We can't do anything about the fees" If they try that BS on you walk away. Check out hondapreview.com for info on the diesels. Accord and civic are coming to US. Accord within 13 months, civic about 14 months. For me they are worth the wait. The xD is not a bad car by any means and a couple of months ago I was all for getting one this fall but I feel they priced it about 700 dollars to much and scion dealers in nyc are horrible with doc fees. Plus I use to sell cars and I like to get in the box and deal. No haggle pricing always falls in favor of the dealer. I promise you that. All of these things together just put me off on the xD. I've still got a 96 honda prelude with over 200k and it is still running strong so I'm going to sit back and wait for my honda diesel. Good luck with the car buying steve and always remember, the one that wants the deal the worst, gets the worst deal.
Scion Dealers are notorious for charging high doc fees. 300 to 900 dollars and if you live in a metro area that has several scion dealers they all seem to magically have the same fees. Hmmmm? Wonder what that is all about? And they try to come off with," Its pure pricing, We can't do anything about the fees" If they try that BS on you walk away. Check out hondapreview.com for info on the diesels. Accord and civic are coming to US. Accord within 13 months, civic about 14 months. For me they are worth the wait. The xD is not a bad car by any means and a couple of months ago I was all for getting one this fall but I feel they priced it about 700 dollars to much and scion dealers in nyc are horrible with doc fees. Plus I use to sell cars and I like to get in the box and deal. No haggle pricing always falls in favor of the dealer. I promise you that. All of these things together just put me off on the xD. I've still got a 96 honda prelude with over 200k and it is still running strong so I'm going to sit back and wait for my honda diesel. Good luck with the car buying steve and always remember, the one that wants the deal the worst, gets the worst deal.
Thanks for the suggestions. For me the xD is one of a few cars we are looking at as a second car for my wife. I hear you on the doc fees tho and if a dealer ever told me it's $300-900 I'd just say ok well, knock it down to $50 which is reasonable. If they didn't, I'd walk. I absolutely hate the way that dealers have been with the Honda Fit and many of the small economy cars. Charging full MSRP, few if any discounts. Now they have a right to do that but they will lose my business. My wife doesn't want a big car like the Accord, but if I can buy an Accord for a few grand more over a Fit or Scion it's a better deal. Unfortunately we will be screwed because when we get back to the USA we will need a car within a week. That means we will not have time to wait for a Honda diesel. We did think maybe just use 1 car for a year and then get a diesel. That is also a possibility. No doubt we are dealing from a disadvantage however there are some volume dealers in that area and when it's time to buy we will have a check in hand. So no financing which the dealers also hate. Buying a vehicle in the Philippines is also no haggle. You pay the price or you don't get the vehicle and salespeople are not on commission. They are paid about $5 daily. Which is an average daily wage. So they don't care if you buy or not. I don't want used so I might either buy upscale or buy down scale and ante up for a diesel when the come out. I just don't know yet. Once the fuel goes up the dealer gouging will hopefully get less. Limiting the Fit was a stupid move on the part of Honda and Honda salespeople are generally very snobbish and rude. Their service dept is usually great tho. I am so going to miss driving a diesel but not much I can do unless they release it in January. Thanks....
If you knew how much markup is on a Scion you'd laugh. Most salespeople at my store stay away from them because it's a flat commission. So how long did you sell cars for? Mackabee
Steve if I were you I would hold off a bit and try to make it a while on just one car. But going a year on just one probably won't work unless you live where public transportation is well developed. But I would try to hold off at least until you get a decent deal on something. Try looking at a 07 civic LX or a used 06 civic ex. After all the fees that the scion dealers try to pile on, you might be in better shape that way. And with a civic you won't have the availabilty problems that you mentioned with the fit. The US market is flooded with civics and they will give you better mpg, ride and safety. Whatever you do stand fast until you get a good deal!! Good luck.
The markup on scions is about 700 bucks. Comm per unit is a mini so the sales reps don't make their money on the gross. They make it on goals and fees. I sold cars long enough to know that its a losers game unless you are selling used with strong management that will let you make gross on your deals and not try to screw you over with them making theirs on volume and backend.
Steve if I were you I would hold off a bit and try to make it a while on just one car. But going a year on just one probably won't work unless you live where public transportation is well developed. But I would try to hold off at least until you get a decent deal on something. Try looking at a 07 civic LX or a used 06 civic ex. After all the fees that the scion dealers try to pile on, you might be in better shape that way. And with a civic you won't have the availability problems that you mentioned with the fit. The US market is flooded with civics and they will give you better mpg, ride and safety. Whatever you do stand fast until you get a good deal!! Good luck.
Thanks, actually I'll be living in the boonies of New Hampshire and there is NO public transit at all! I'm currently living and working overseas and when I get back to the US after almost 5 years I will need a car within a week. I don't have a car there and I had enough of used cars to last me 3 lifetimes unless I am going to track or offroad the car, I steer clear of used. My wife likes the Fit, we already owned a Jazz here so we are familiar with the car. My wife is partial to sports cars and basically; anything that lets me drive like a maniac! :surprise: :shades: So we need a regular car for shopping and normal city stuff, she wants an EVO for a family car. (What a Great Wife!) But the Scion xD and the Fit are dealer ripoff cars in the US, as they overcharge big for them. I paid like $12K for my 1.3L Jazz and in the US it's going to be a feast on my wallet. The EVO won't be out until March and no Mini dealers are anywhere nearby so Honda is at the top of the list and then Scion. A Civic Si would be good but I don't think my wife can drive it with the revs screaming up at 8600 rpms! not after coming out of a diesel. Also she likes torque so we'll see. I never saw a woman love to drift and smoke the tires as much as my wife does! of course she prefers this on dirt roads.... The Fit or Scion would allow me to buy the EVO unless it crazy priced. I thought about the BMW 135i but the RFT's are troublesome and no room for a spare so that's almost a deal killer right there, ditto the Cooper S. The Fit and Scion have hauling room but the seats in the Jazz were kinda hard and the Fit is the same but the Scion looks like it will have better seats. I'm still a bit concerned about it being a Yaris tho. Just in the showroom here the manual was clunky and was like stirring coal. My wife hated the manual in the Yaris, and does not want us to buy the car. She thinks the manual in my Hi-Lux is miles better. Plus snow is a factor for us and I'd hate to buy the new fugly Impreza but the base model is $18K and I might be able to swing it. I'd rather have a Honda for longevity. A hatch is better for us and we need snow tires in the winter anyway. I might buy an older WRX and RallyCross it, but that's not reliable transport that we both need right away and our free time is limited. Up there you cannot get anywhere without a car. it's mandatory and reliable is a keyword up there. Honda, Subaru, Toyota and Chevy, Ford and Dodge trucks are very common. Thanks for the suggestions.
I drove a new xD. Being a 05 xB owner, I wanted to test the new car. I drove an auto. The xD overall is a very nice car. I would suspect that a base xD would be around what I paid for my xB with options (but not TTL).
The inside was definitely lower than my car, but it was enough headroom for my 6 foot frame. The back seat was slightly less. In legroom, the front was great and the back was not bad. It was no comparision to my xB, but I was not touching the seatback either. The rear headrests need to be lowered when the back seat is unoccupied to not block your rear view. The back window is pretty small. Both the front and back seats are very comfortable.
The front seats door armrest was a minus. They were too low. Shorter people should have more use with it. The center armrest is still an option. In the back seat, the door was perfect.
I liked the gauges. The fuel gauge is digital. The speedometer and the tachometer are unique. I liked the creativity. The orange night lights were attractive. The stereo was awesome. I noticed 8 speakers in the car. The AC worked great and I live in FL.
The most impressive thing was the ride. Its a highway car, my current xB is not. This surprised me. Its also quiet for the size of the car. Its quieter than my xB at highway speed. Even though, there is a place for a blind spot in the left back corner, I had no trouble.
The rear cargo area is small though. Grocerys are fine. However, you would have to use the back seat for anything else. Vertical cargo would have to be flat, unlike my xB.
In terms of power, the auto felt faster than my manual xB, but I know thats relative. I would imagine that the manual xD would be fun.
The steering was very tight and responsive, but all Scions are known for this.
The car comes with front and side airbags.
In conclusion, I liked it and was very impressed. My xB is still the most unique (in my opinion), but the new xD is no question an improvment over the last xA or xB when it comes to ride, safety, and layout. Although, I still like my center gauges in my xB. The new xD is much closer to my xB than the new one. The styling looks like a mini matrix, but it sure doesn't drive like a matrix especially in the driving position.
I worry about how easy for me or cheap for the service guys it will be with the cramped engine compartment (but its not worse than Civic or Fit).
Glad to read that it is "a highway car" as most of my driving is rural. This would be a long distance commuter car just for me, with occasional trips into the big city where the automatic would come in handy.
I'd to fit my golf clubs sideways, we'll see.
I found those reat head rests were in the middle of my upper back when down, but I can understand how they'd block the rear view when up (like many cars).
We'll have to see how actual mileage, etc. works out.
Steve you are a very lucky man to have a wife like that! But on the cars, have you considered a mazda 3i. Hway miles are very good 35+. I've got a buddy who gets 37 on the hway plus it is a blast to drive. Independant suspension front and back with 148hp. Check out the reviews on this car. Plus mazda dealers will sell them at invoice all day long. You can get a 3i touring 5MT for about 16k plus TTL. Test drive one of these when you get back and have your wife test drive it as well !
Don't know what it's like where you live, but here all the Mazda dealers sell them as a sideline, where you're treated as an after thought and a nuisance. Hard to get in for service, parts aren't well stocked, and only one service guy in the whole shop that works on them. Worse yet, many of these dealers sell (or used to sell) primarily domestics, so you're barely tolerated by other customers as a traitor.
Unfortunately Honda, Toyota, Subaru, and VW families of cars have the only strong dealer networks around here.
Steve you are a very lucky man to have a wife like that! But on the cars, have you considered a mazda 3i. Hway miles are very good 35+. I've got a buddy who gets 37 on the hway plus it is a blast to drive. Independent suspension front and back with 148hp. Check out the reviews on this car. Plus mazda dealers will sell them at invoice all day long. You can get a 3i touring 5MT for about 16k plus TTL. Test drive one of these when you get back and have your wife test drive it as well !
Yes i am a very lucky guy to have a woman like her. She is truly great! I have owned Mazda's in the past and I really liked my Miata and Ford never got near to touching that with their gremlin filled hands. But I really do see Mazda as a Japanese Ford and in general I don't feel like they are good people to buy from or deal with. I even put up a review about my Miata on Edmunds Dealer Reviews as buying it was a nightmare, service I had a guy who was a Miata specialist do everything else. That's why I never considered Mazda in any configuration.
Looking at the Daihatsu web page they show no car plant in japan but several parts plants. they show several car plants outside of japan and indonesia. The vin on the xB shows japan made. They could be suppling parts and materials but does not look like they are actually building the US xB's. The materia loooks like a clone, just like the Chery QQ looks like the daewoo Aveo
Comments
to which i reply - ohplezz
Decidedly not. When's the diesel coming?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The gap between xD and xB has remained the same ($1,300) even though the xB now has a bigger/proven engine. (xB is 4 inches wider inside, 4 inches more rear leg room, 15 cubic feet more interior space, and 3 gallon bigger gas tank.) Scion must be banking on the need for better mileage (22/28 for the xB and 26/32 for xD).
A similarly equipped Yaris is $2200 cheaper than the xD, and has been proven with a well known engine. And with Yaris you can strip it down and save another $1200. This price gap would be further inflated if dealers are piling on additional charges to Scion prices. Note that interior/exterior dimensions of the two cars are very similar, with the two additional doors on the xD being the biggest difference. According to Edmunds owner discussions folks seem to adjust quickly to the center mounted instruments in the Yaris and overall are enjoying the car.
I guess Scion really doesn't want to sell anything but the xB and tC. :confuse:
Will there be a diesel or a hybrid in xD's future, do you think?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Also, I would suggest you actually wait until the car is here to drive it before making back-to-back assertions about highway ride with other models.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In fact, with 2 doors, significantly less power, a plain sound system.... the cheapest I can keep it comparably equipped is $14,500...
Not that they are really comparable vehicles, hence the name change. They are both Scions below the xB. That's about what they share in common.
DrFill
ABS and side curtains don't mean squat to me. Frankly I'd rather not have ABS as it engages too soon/often on snow or ice (especially on GMs but even on my '97 Camry). And I'd trade both for better brakes/tires in a heartbeat. I'd rather have more control to avoid s to start with. Apart from these items I priced out a Yaris here at Edmunds, so I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from.
I have a $5000 stereo at home (plus a second stereo plus a separate HT system) and IMO it's stupid to think you can hear true fidelity above road/engine/wind noise (especially in an inexpensive hatchback). So again, fancy car radios don't show up at all on my radar screen.
Yes, Yaris has less horsepower, but how the extra power in the xD translates into real world driving (or even test track numbers) is yet to be seen. As Yaris weighs about 400 pounds (15%) less than xD it is probably close to a performance tie.
Yes, Yaris hatchbacks are 2 doors, not 4 (as I mentioned previously). As this would be a commuter car for me alone to drive 2 doors and power windows/locks/mirrors don't much matter either. (The $2200 difference in pricing I did included power windows/doors, but you could save another $500 by deleting them.)
I'm not saying that Yaris would be a nicer car than xD, just that comparing size, features, and expected performance the xD is pricey. And since Yaris doesn't have much of a mark-up its almost like Scion pricing (without the Scion dealer add-on fees).
As the 2007 Camry CE cost $2,300 more than the 2008 xB (from Edmunds), where will that put Corolla pricing compared to xD? Again, too high I fear.
Your blanket statement was that the xD is $2200 more than the Yaris, but REALLY what you meant was that the xD stickers for $2200 more than the Yaris YOU'D buy - sans abs, side curtains, modern conveniences, etc. That's fine, I just found it misleading.
At the end of the day, I'm sure Toyota could care less - they've now got 5 different models to cover buyer choice in the sub $20K arena (6 if you count Yaris h/b and sedan separately). If you buy a Yaris instead of an xD, the company is no worse off...
~alpha
DrFill
I just re-read Consumer Union's review of the Yaris, and it's not real pretty. Like the Cobalt/Cavalier upgrade, the Yaris/Echo upgrade was a welcomed improvement but still not satisfying when compared to the competition. Apparently its the Toyota name that is selling it (efficiency and reliability being good things).
As I put 25,000 - 30,000 miles on per year, I want satisfying and economical. So I might be back to the xD. If wifey is set on a new xB, I wanted something a bit different. The new Corolla would fill that bill but I can't see paying more for it than a xB (as the expected pricing would dictate). OTOH the early owner comments here at Edmunds for the new xB are quite glowing with highway fuel economy rated into the low 30s. So for $1300 more for much more of a car, I'm torn. :confuse:
BTW around here year old Honda/Toyota products typically sell for $1000 less than current new prices, making the used option pretty pointless (to give up warrantee and better interest rates on loans).
I think the Scion xD needs a test drive but Daihatsu :confuse:
That makes me worry.
Here is the quote
"It didn't’t fail. Daihatsu assembled the original Scion xB, supplies the new xB and xD to Toyota, and sells a version of the ’08 xB as the Daihatsu Materia. Your homework: Google the Daihatsu Tanto, the Daihatsu Mira Gino, and the (defunct) Daihatsu Naked. We can’t help feeling that this corn-fed, overweight, thoroughly Americanized xB represents a squandered opportunity to give us something really different."
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
basically try and name a decent car they ever made or sold here. Ask anyone who owned one if they were any good and you'll find people using very bad words to describe them. One guy told me they make Hyundai's look like a BMW!
They have also been compared to Yugo's. Overseas models, i can't say. but I never met anyone who liked a Daihatsu.
Either way the bottom line is who would buy a new and improved Yugo? :confuse:
daihatsu screwed up for whatever reason and they have been gone a long time. Hyundai has worked very hard to get from the bottom of the barrel to the middle of the barrel.
i'm not saying the xD will be an awful car but for me the fact it is actually a Daihatsu will affect my decision at some point. The Honda Fit has really uncomfortable seats and doesn't easily get the economy it should. I had a 2005 Jazz so i know first hand about that.
The Scion xD has possibilities but it's brand new model and now a Daihatsu made one. If Honda only made wagons like before instead of SUV's.
Still I'll have to test drive one first.
Gauges are electric (nothing to see until the engine starts). The odd dash design around the gauges didn’t feel as awkward as they appear in photos. Everything looked well built and fit me (5’-7”) very well. There are four cup holders, the center ones are small. You sit up quite chair like (I like that). There’s lots of back seat leg room (with the seats moved all the way back, they have 6 inches of travel). With the driver’s seat about where I’d have it, I had 5 inches of room from my knees to back of the front seat. However the rear seat headrest when down hit my upper back and had to be extended quite a ways up for proper adult fit (probably a child safety thing that they go that low).
Obviously the “trunk” is small, but has a number of cubbies around the spare and of course those rear seats can move forward. The car is already prepped for XM.
Under the hood things looked less promising. Self-serving won’t be easy as the engine compartment is fairly tight (however the hood opens nearly 90 degrees). Some disassembly of fuse boxes, etc. would be required to change headlamps. Checking fluid levels are easy enough, but the green battery light is tucked under the wiper/fire wall such that it’s hard to see (at least in full daylight).
The new xB is almost truck like in comparison (heavier, bigger, more powerful). The xD should get about 20% better fuel economy. I’m not planning on buying until next summer, so I’ll probably wait to take test drives for a while. But my early choices are xB, xD, new Corolla, and Civic. For the 25-30,000 miles a year I do mostly by myself, the xD looks the most promising.
Mackabee
Mackabee
To "lay downs" I would assume.
Mack
I have no idea who builds it or where I know Toyota owns Scion but that's about it.
As far as Car & Driver goes usually they are ok about most of what they print. Motor Trend on the other hand is so obviously biased depending on who gets the most advertising that it's like watching pro-wrestlling and thinking that the outcome of the match isn't predetermined.
Hopefuly build quality will be good.
I guess they are already arriving at dealers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
50 mph baby!
What problems do you have with the Scion dealers? We are seriously considering the Scion as a second car for my wife and I don't care about steel wheels in fact I LOVE it!
Now I can buy whatever wheels I want aftermarket and use the stock steel ones for winter tires,so for me that's a plus.
I haven't heard about the Civic as a diesel, do you have a link? I have heard the Accord will be available as a late 2008 model but that's not official. Give me a diesel accord any day and it's a real world 50mpg!
50 mph baby!
See you in the Sloooooow lane :P
I think you meant 50 mpg!
I'd really like to hear about your experiences with the Scion dealers tho.
Mack
One of the features on the xD I was looking forward to is the cruise control. I couldn't find any indicator light on the dash showing when the cruise control was on. Could it be that Scion added cruise control at the last moment and had no provisions for an indicator light?
I also don't like the Scion radios that look just like an aftermarket radio (meaning they may get stolen by people who think they are aftermrket stereos).
Thanks for the suggestions. For me the xD is one of a few cars we are looking at as a second car for my wife.
I hear you on the doc fees tho and if a dealer ever told me it's $300-900 I'd just say ok well, knock it down to $50 which is reasonable. If they didn't, I'd walk. I absolutely hate the way that dealers have been with the Honda Fit and many of the small economy cars. Charging full MSRP, few if any discounts. Now they have a right to do that but they will lose my business. My wife doesn't want a big car like the Accord, but if I can buy an Accord for a few grand more over a Fit or Scion it's a better deal.
Unfortunately we will be screwed because when we get back to the USA we will need a car within a week. That means we will not have time to wait for a Honda diesel.
We did think maybe just use 1 car for a year and then get a diesel. That is also a possibility.
No doubt we are dealing from a disadvantage however there are some volume dealers in that area and when it's time to buy we will have a check in hand. So no financing which the dealers also hate.
Buying a vehicle in the Philippines is also no haggle. You pay the price or you don't get the vehicle and salespeople are not on commission. They are paid about $5 daily.
Which is an average daily wage.
So they don't care if you buy or not.
I don't want used so I might either buy upscale or buy down scale and ante up for a diesel when the come out. I just don't know yet.
Once the fuel goes up the dealer gouging will hopefully get less. Limiting the Fit was a stupid move on the part of Honda and Honda salespeople are generally very snobbish and rude. Their service dept is usually great tho.
I am so going to miss driving a diesel but not much I can do unless they release it in January.
Thanks....
Mackabee
Thanks, actually I'll be living in the boonies of New Hampshire and there is NO public transit at all!
My wife likes the Fit, we already owned a Jazz here so we are familiar with the car. My wife is partial to sports cars and basically; anything that lets me drive like a maniac! :surprise:
So we need a regular car for shopping and normal city stuff, she wants an EVO for a family car. (What a Great Wife!)
But the Scion xD and the Fit are dealer ripoff cars in the US, as they overcharge big for them. I paid like $12K for my 1.3L Jazz and in the US it's going to be a feast on my wallet. The EVO won't be out until March and no Mini dealers are anywhere nearby so Honda is at the top of the list and then Scion. A Civic Si would be good but I don't think my wife can drive it with the revs screaming up at 8600 rpms! not after coming out of a diesel. Also she likes torque so we'll see.
I never saw a woman love to drift and smoke the tires as much as my wife does! of course she prefers this on dirt roads....
The Fit or Scion would allow me to buy the EVO unless it crazy priced. I thought about the BMW 135i but the RFT's are troublesome and no room for a spare so that's almost a deal killer right there, ditto the Cooper S.
The Fit and Scion have hauling room but the seats in the Jazz were kinda hard and the Fit is the same but the Scion looks like it will have better seats. I'm still a bit concerned about it being a Yaris tho. Just in the showroom here the manual was clunky and was like stirring coal. My wife hated the manual in the Yaris, and does not want us to buy the car. She thinks the manual in my Hi-Lux is miles better.
Plus snow is a factor for us and I'd hate to buy the new fugly Impreza but the base model is $18K and I might be able to swing it. I'd rather have a Honda for longevity. A hatch is better for us and we need snow tires in the winter anyway.
I might buy an older WRX and RallyCross it, but that's not reliable transport that we both need right away and our free time is limited. Up there you cannot get anywhere without a car. it's mandatory and reliable is a keyword up there. Honda, Subaru, Toyota and Chevy, Ford and Dodge trucks are very common.
Thanks for the suggestions.
The inside was definitely lower than my car, but it was enough headroom for my 6 foot frame. The back seat was slightly less. In legroom, the front was great and the back was not bad. It was no comparision to my xB, but I was not touching the seatback either. The rear headrests need to be lowered when the back seat is unoccupied to not block your rear view. The back window is pretty small. Both the front and back seats are very comfortable.
The front seats door armrest was a minus. They were too low. Shorter people should have more use with it. The center armrest is still an option. In the back seat, the door was perfect.
I liked the gauges. The fuel gauge is digital. The speedometer and the tachometer are unique. I liked the creativity. The orange night lights were attractive. The stereo was awesome. I noticed 8 speakers in the car. The AC worked great and I live in FL.
The most impressive thing was the ride. Its a highway car, my current xB is not. This surprised me. Its also quiet for the size of the car. Its quieter than my xB at highway speed. Even though, there is a place for a blind spot in the left back corner, I had no trouble.
The rear cargo area is small though. Grocerys are fine. However, you would have to use the back seat for anything else. Vertical cargo would have to be flat, unlike my xB.
In terms of power, the auto felt faster than my manual xB, but I know thats relative. I would imagine that the manual xD would be fun.
The steering was very tight and responsive, but all Scions are known for this.
The car comes with front and side airbags.
In conclusion, I liked it and was very impressed. My xB is still the most unique (in my opinion), but the new xD is no question an improvment over the last xA or xB when it comes to ride, safety, and layout. Although, I still like my center gauges in my xB. The new xD is much closer to my xB than the new one. The styling looks like a mini matrix, but it sure doesn't drive like a matrix especially in the driving position.
I worry about how easy for me or cheap for the service guys it will be with the cramped engine compartment (but its not worse than Civic or Fit).
Glad to read that it is "a highway car" as most of my driving is rural. This would be a long distance commuter car just for me, with occasional trips into the big city where the automatic would come in handy.
I'd to fit my golf clubs sideways, we'll see.
I found those reat head rests were in the middle of my upper back when down, but I can understand how they'd block the rear view when up (like many cars).
We'll have to see how actual mileage, etc. works out.
Unfortunately Honda, Toyota, Subaru, and VW families of cars have the only strong dealer networks around here.
Yes i am a very lucky guy to have a woman like her. She is truly great!
I have owned Mazda's in the past and I really liked my Miata and Ford never got near to touching that with their gremlin filled hands. But I really do see Mazda as a Japanese Ford and in general I don't feel like they are good people to buy from or deal with. I even put up a review about my Miata on Edmunds Dealer Reviews as buying it was a nightmare, service I had a guy who was a Miata specialist do everything else.
That's why I never considered Mazda in any configuration.
but it was nice. the interior shine around the stereo was a bit of a turn off, and the interior fabric is not as nice as the fit's.