Is it difficult for you to grasp the concept that Honda did not issue warnings to persons that bought '04 CRVs prone to fires until forced to by the NHTSA? Is it your opinion that NHTSA should not have gotten involved in order to protect the innocent car buyers that did not know any better and relied on Honda's past excellent record?
Common sense dictates that any entity (i.e. Honda) that places a product into the mainstream of commerce that is a potential fire hazard, warn the public and provide education to their trained service technicians on how to use "a minimal bit of extra care and common sense" in order to prevent engine fires. Honda's blanket denial that a problem exists and the subsequent blanket denial of any liability once the problem has become obvious to the general public and government does not nothing to bolster Honda's credibility. I understand your unconditional loyalty to Honda since I am sure you are rewarded handsomely for your efforts. However, the relentless biased advocacy by a Honda employee only continues to diminish the reputation of Honda by those reading these Boards. Steve
Ecotrklvr: ”But it ain't Honda's fault that people can't seem to manage removing the old gasket while changing the oil. This isn't the first time this has happened to anyone - my neighbor had her Toyota Camry spew oil because of a double-gasket. Let's put the blame where it belongs, and stop trying to have manufacturers have to redesign everything to be idiot-proof.”
I agree that double gaskets can and do happen on any vehicle. Identifying a manufacturing problem with the factory-installed oil filters certainly helped cut down on the number of CR-V fires. But, just like any other vehicle, double gaskets can, and will, happen with CR-Vs. The difference, as far as I can tell, is that with most/all other vehicles, you get a nasty oil spill. Did the Toyota Camry that spewed oil - did it catch on fire?
Ecotrklvr: ”This is starting to go the way of the Audi Unintended Acceleration fiasco. That proved to be Unintended, all right. But those folks were still hitting the accelerator, and not the brake. Check it out for yourselves on that one.”
And this is a good comparison to the CR-V fires? Are you calling the CR-V fires a fiasco because factory-installed oil filters were more prone than usual to result in double gaskets? Or because Honda-trained technicians and other mechanics have shown some difficulty in removing the old gasket before installing the new filter?
Audi owners were hitting the gas pedal. What specifically are CR-V owners doing to cause these fires? Trusting their dealer to correctly change the oil? Or buying the CR-V in the first place?
Isellhondas: Finally, a sensible post! Your Audi example is an excellent one. People just won't take personal responsibility.
That’s a nice thought in the abstract. But tell me, what irresponsible act are CR-V owners guilty of when their CR-Vs have caught fire? Did they make a mistake in taking their CR-V to their Honda dealer for their oil change? Did they take their CR-V to the same place as their other vehicles for the oil change, expecting the same results?
As a person who sells Hondas, are you really saying that CR-V owners should show greater personal responsibility when it comes to oil changes by doing such changes themselves and NOT taking their CR-Vs to their Honda dealer? If that’s not what you mean, please explain how CR-V owners can show more personal responsibility in preventing these fires.
Too bad Honda did not give this simple advice to their technicians. Maybe, if Honda had acknowledged the problem a little earlier, a few fires could have been avoided. Steve
I'm not trying to protect anyone and I sure do not speak for Honda. you can believe this or not but I would be saying the same thing if this were another make or model. A couple of years ago when the Toyota "sludge" issue was being beat to death, I even jumped in and suggested it was more than likely a result of people not changing their oil often enough. I still believe that.
I do hope Honda corporate people read these forums too and make product changes accordingly.
Still, you can't make a car idiot proof. If a mechanic fails to tighten a bleeder screw, the car will lose it's brakes and if someone forgets to tighten the lug nuts on one wheel it can fall off...happened to me.
People like to argue how a manufacturer "could" or "should" have designed something differently to prevent damage caused by carelesness.
Tell it to the NHTSA! Actually, it is probably too late. It appears that other Honda advocates tried your same argument and failed. Don't fret over it too much though, I'm sure there will be another problem with Hondas in the future that will enable you to lay the blame on anyone or anything other than Honda. From the looks of the last two years (engine fires and PTTR), you should not have to wait long. Steve
Why would anyone assume that all oil changes in question were done at Honda Dealers? Poor training on the part of those Honda dealers, to be sure. But these aren't Honda - they are not owned or operated by Honda. So why blame Honda? Let's not confuse Honda the Manufacturer with Honda Dealers. The problem lies with poor training of oil changers.
I've not seen the 2002+ oil filter location - is it really that bad? I've been reading this forum for years now, and until the oil fires, I didn't see any posts bemoaning the oil filter location.
Many years ago, when I was in school, I worked part time in a gas station. I goofed up changing the oil on my own beloved 1962 Impala SS. It had a miserable canister filter. I must have pinched the gasket and I failed to check it for leaks when I was done. I drove away only to quickly smell oil burning. The filter dripped oil all exhaust manifold.
No, it didn't catch on fire but it sure could have.
The leak wasn't the fault of Chevrolet or the Purolater filter company and it wasn't the fault of Mobil Oil. It was the fault of a careless 18 year old who was in too much of a hurry to follow common sense procedure.
You don't have to refer to it in such negative terms as 'arguing.' I prefer to call it playful banter. As I am sure you are aware, my unhapiness as related to my '05 CRV results from the PTTR problems. Hence, since Honda is either unwilling or unable to correct the problem, both parties will submit to arbitration based on the Lemon Law. I requested that Honda take the vehicle back. They refused. Apparently, they do not want a faulty vehicle either. Who does? I have inquired whether you would like to buy the vehicle. I received no response. I assume your lack of enthusiasm to purchase a vehicle with PTTR is for the same reasons as Honda's refusal to take the vehicle back. Steve
I said: ”Or because Honda-trained technicians and other mechanics have shown some difficulty in removing the old gasket before installing the new filter?”
... to which, I think, ecotrklvr said: ”Why would anyone assume that all oil changes in question were done at Honda Dealers?”
I can’t speak for others on this forum, but I did not say it was just technicians at Honda dealers doing these oil changes. On the other hand, in reading over the complaints to the NHTSA, I see that a number of them specifically mention the dealer doing the oil change. And that was certainly the case with my first oil change ... the oil change that resulted in a double gasket and smoke - but no fire, because I caught it in time.
I would agree that there’s some poor training of oil changers. But logically, that poor training should show up in other vehicles and in other oil changes. I submit that it does, in the form of double gaskets, loose oil drain nuts, oil spilled on various parts of the vehicle, etc. But I’m not reading anything anywhere about any other vehicle having the kind of problem with engine fires that’s anywhere close to the degree that the CR-V continues to have.
I don’t know if the CR-V is designed in such a way as to make changing the oil filter that much more difficult than changing the oil filter on any other vehicle. I don’t know if the CR-V is designed in such a way that a serious oil leak (oil gush, oil spew, etc.) will lead more often to an engine fire than with any other vehicle. But I do know that it is not reasonable to expect technicians to show more ability to properly change the oil in one vehicle than in another. If the oil changers do what they have always done, some oil changes will be botched. And it seems to me that a botched oil change on a CR-V is one helluva lot more serious than with any other vehicle.
“I never said that” isellhondas said: ”Your Audi example is an excellent one. People just won't take personal responsibility.”
The Audi example shows that individual owners, not technicians and not the manufacturer, were at fault. You said that this was an excellent example. You seem to be comparing the two, the Audi and the CR-V, and so my question remains, what irresponsible act are CR-V owners guilty of when their CR-Vs have caught fire?
Someone else wrote that "Honda is responsible for seeing that their technicians know how to properly work on their cars". Well, my point is that the mechanics don't work for Honda, and so they aren't "their" technicians.
Have I missed something - has someone implied that CR-V owners are guilty of some irresponsible act? There are several parties involved in these fires, but no one has said it's the owners' fault. I'm merely pointing out that the pe4rson who changes the oil, and doesn't CLEAN THE GASKET SEAT, won't find the old gasket. Every gasket that's replaced on anything, won't work very well if it's placed onto a dirty gasket seat. Not cleaning it amounts to incompetence. Incompetent mechanics are to blame. Honda didn't change anyone's oil. So don't blame them - at least for this.
I stand corrected. There's actually a more recent press release on the Hondanews.com website (the official Honda news site).
Marysville, Ohio 01/10/2005 -- Exercising its flexibility to produce both cars and light trucks in Ohio, Honda of America Mfg. has announced that it will begin production of the popular Honda CR-V sport utility vehicle at its East Liberty Auto Plant and an all-new Acura SUV at the Marysville Auto Plant, both in 2006.
ecotrklvr said: "Have I missed something - has someone implied that CR-V owners are guilty of some irresponsible act?"
In a word, yes, you implied that very thing. If this is not what you meant, then I interpreted it incorrectly. However, in your first message you talked for two paragraphs about oil changes - the need to be careful, check for the old gasket, clean "the machined flange on the engine block", if all CR-V oil changes were done correctly there would be no fires, etc. And all of that was fine. But then you said: "This is starting to go the way of the Audi Unintended Acceleration fiasco. That proved to be Unintended, all right. But those folks were still hitting the accelerator, and not the brake. Check it out for yourselves on that one."
My (admittedly limited) understanding of the "Audi fiasco" is that the problem of unintended acceleration was the fault of the Audi owners. You brought this example up in connection with the CR-V fires. If the Audi example is a good example to use when talking about the CR-V fires, and the Audi example is all about the owner being wrong and causing the problem, I'd like to know how CR-V owners are causing the fires.
"There are several parties involved in these fires, but no one has said it's the owners' fault."
Again, it was clearly implied in your message where you brought in the example of Audi and unintended acceleration. Either that was a poor example, or it was a good example ... and if it is a good example, then please just connect the dots for me and tell me how CR-V owners are responsible for CR-V fires, just the way Audi owners were responsible for unintended acceleration.
Then isellhondas chimed in with: "Finally, a sensible post! Your Audi example is an excellent one. People just won't take personal responsibility."
Same question to you. You said the Audi example is an excellent example, and that people just won't take personal responsibility. So take that next step.
Audi owners caused unintended acceleration by hitting the gas pedal when they should have hit the brake. CR-V owners cause CR-V fires .... how?
... or maybe just admit that the Audi experience illustrates a totally different kind of problem.
As posted above, some of CR-V production is being brought over here to North America. It's sorta old news, but when it was first announced the subject was talked over pretty extensively. Here's the short of it based on the consensus of that discussion.
The line is expected to start in early 2006. That's a wee bit early for producing the 2007 model CR-V (which we expect in October-November of 2006). However, it is possible that the line will start with production of the RDX earlier in the year, then add CR-V units to the line later.
Anyway, it's a pretty good bet that current generation CR-Vs are not going to be produced there. It doesn't make sense to have a line tooled up for a vehicle that is about to be redesigned.
On the quality front, first year bugs are always a concern. I'm sure there will be a few glitches with the first units of the G3 CR-V. However, I expect the same with the units built in Japan and Europe as well. Shifting production from the UK to the US should not be.
A great many old-school Honda fans (import fans, really) liked to claim that Japanese workers were superior to those from the US. They used that theory as a weapon in the import vs domestic wars. When Honda shifted Accord production to the US, that crowd had a choice. Give up the weapon, or give up the Accord. When the Accord did have a few problems, they gave up the Accord. But they never compared it with the problems they had with first year units from Japan. The truth is, US-built Accords had fewer warranty claims than those from Japan. But the word of mouth campaign ignored the facts and kept clinging to their old theory.
Thanks Varmint - your info always sounds like it makes sense. You must have a ear on the Honda board room wall! But most importantly you know cars and are thoughtful in your analysis. I have owned 3 Acuras (currently an '04 TL) and have always been pretty pleased with them. Want to get the wife a CR-V SE but am not in a rush - she still likes her '98 A4. So I'll wait until either I see a really good deal (maybe leftover '05) or until I se if the '06 have a goodie or two that makes me want a '06 for her.
The Audi is a bad example of who was to blame, but a great example of who wasn't to blame - the manufacturer, in both cases. That's why I cited it. I have nothing but sympathy to those drivers and owners who suffered from this problem, whatever and whoever was to blame.
I apologize - it really isn't a good example at all. I just hate the whole "deep pocket" model of assigning blame.
Can the messages posted on this forum regarding the forbidden topic be moved to the other forum set up for that topic so that people coming to the Edmunds forums looking for information on that topic can find all the relevant posts in one place?
We had our CR-V in the shop a couple of weeks ago for a minor repair done under warranty (the light switch in the glove compartment wasn't working properly and needed to be replaced). Yesterday we received a survey from Honda. Is filling it out and sending it in a waste of time?
I wish I had received a survey after our 5,000 mile service, or even the service the very next day (to fix the oil leak caused during the 5,000 mile service). I wish I had received a survey after our 10,000 service, when my request to watch the oil change - I was told "no problem" when I made the appointment - was ignored.
But instead - and I'm sure these surveys are sent out randomly (wink, wink) - I get a survey after a successful minor part replacement. The survey doesn't give the date of service, but it does say that "... you recently had work completed..." - guess I really shouldn't fill it in based on my August '04 experience, should I?
Aren't the surveys sent from Honda for warranty work? And any survey for maintenance would only come from the dealer? Or does Honda send the survey for both warranty work and maintenance work? I never got a survey card for my 105K maintenance at the dealer.
This survey, a 4-page survey sent by Honda and not the dealer, appears to cover any kind of service. Question 2 reads:
Did this service include: (Mark all that apply) ___ oil change ___ routine/scheduled maintenance ___ repair you paid for ___ repair covered by warranty ___ other
There is space for comments, and generally the four lines would be enough, but I think I have more to say. They give the option of filling out the survey online, and I may look into that.
Then again, I may just hang onto the paper survey for a while. I went out last night to check the glove compartment light - to make sure it went on and off with the switch - and the light never came on, whether the engine was running or not. Either the bulb has blown since the repair was done a couple of weeks ago, or the repair was never done or it was done incorrectly. Either way, it's another trip back to the dealer. Sigh.
... I'll pick up a bulb this weekend - easier and faster that way. I'd rather not go to the Honda dealer any more than is called for with the service contract we've got.
It's not clear from your posts but hopefully you are aware that the parking lights and/or the headlights have to be on in order for the glove box light to function.
Anything is possible but I would hope after working on your glove box light they wouldn't leave you with a blown out bulb.
I replaced the original crappy Duelers in January on our 02, after 26000 miles. They held air ok, but they were a little noisy and they wore down too soon for an OEM tire. I had them rotated every 5000 miles or so, and the tire shop that I replaced them at said they were at 4/32 or so. I was getting close. They were surprised that I got that many miles out of them. The customer ahead of me that day was replacing his original Duelers on his Saturn Vue after 17000 miles, so I felt pretty good.
In keeping the same small size (205/70/15), what have others been replacing with? This car is basically a grocery and kid hauler for my wife in a warm climate, and she is easy on the car. I almost went with the Yokohama Avid's, but ended up getting the Goodyear Assurance ComforTred. I think they had a higher treadwear rating and the Yoko's were in 215, not 205. Didn't want to mess up the speedo too much. We are very happy with the new tires, since they are passenger car tires, not light truck tires like the Duelers. The ride is quieter and the braking is noticeably improved, even with the original brakes.
I went with the Yokohama Avid Tourings in the OEM size for my '99 CR-V. I've been very happy with them, although my CR-V originally came with BFG Touring T/A's, not the dreaded Duelers.
(use your imagination to insert a non-car smiley here)
I replaced mine (back in '02) with Michelin X-Ones, and need to replace those within the year. I've got 60K miles on them so far and they have been great. I'm in central Florida so wet traction is a big issue with the summer storms.
I sold my 2001 CRV almost 18 months ago so I've not been on the board for a while. It's amazing how things have changed. I don't mean to oversimplify but the last generation CRV board had two kinds of posts. People talking about how much they loved their CRV or folks talking about adventures and trips they were taking in their CRVs.
When I first saw the new CRV I was disappointed that with 7 years to work on it that this was the best that Honda could do as a follow up. There are reptiles in Florida that have evolved more quickly in 7 years then the CRV.
And the current generation continues to disappoint with questionable quality, customer service, ergonomics and design.
well, your observation is probably fueled by two factors. one, i bet more, and more different kinds of folks buy the crv now than when you bought yours. back then the market for small suvs was young, and buyers were more likely to be young active folks. the new version is EVERYWHERE and that means all kinds of folks are buying it. young couples, old grannys, families etc. so the dialogue traffic is much more geared to mundane issues rather than adventures regarding the crv. second, all of these 'new' folks are much more plugged in to these types of forums than they were 7 years ago, so you're more likely to hear from them. i'd say the new crv, though not a stunner in any category, is as close to being the perfect everyday vehicle as you can get. the original had what,? 121 hp and a civic interior? my 2003 has 160 hp, 162 fp torque, gets good gas mileage, and can whip a 15 mpg 200+ hp liberty. it is extemely crashworthy, comfortable, handles well, and the flexible interior allows me to throw my dog, and/or two mountain bikes in it in the blink of an eye. though not revolutionary it is head and shoulders better than the original. our other vehicle is a new beetle convertible, and a pity on those who must drive daily under a roof. but if i was forced to choose between these two, i'd pick the crv for it's performance, sportiness, safety, reliability, and flexibility. may the sun god forgive me for saying so. but the fact is the with the new crv honda improved on every aspect of the old crv which was a quick fix to get a foothold into the 'pocket suv' market.
The only issue I've heard of with the old design is burnt valves. Honda's recommendation in the owner's manual states "adjust valves only if noisy at 105K miles". Most folks here recommend having them adjusted 30K mile intervals, about a $100 service item at the dealer.
I've got a '99 CRV with 106K miles, had the 105K service last month, includes timing belt change, $650 for everything, never had even one unexpected problem, still going strong.
Did the old CRVs have mundane issues such as catching on fire more and having more of a problem with "torque steering" aka PTTR? Steve
I am sure if someone double gasketed the old CR-V oil filter it would catch on fire eventually. PTTR was an issue with the 1st generation CR-V as well.
" I am sure if someone double gasketed the old CR-V oil filter it would catch on fire eventually "
The oil filter is right above the exhaust. I've burned my arm a couple times changing the filter, and it isn't easy to see the engine block. Never had a double gasket though. I don't know how it is in relation to the 2nd gen CRV. Maybe someone else has experience with both gens.
Was the PTTR with the 1st gen just the early years? And was there a fix? I haven't heard of that.
I've owned one of each generation.. My first one was a 5-speed and the other one is automatic..
Gen 1.. great visibility, no sunroof, no tinted glass for the wagon section.. painfully slow (127 HP), but that was helped by the stick..
Gen 2.. Sunroof!!, indash CD changer, gobs of power-even with the slushbox, less visibility with the rear-door design, easy fold rear seats without removing headrest..tinted glass in wagon section (keeps it much cooler).
Otherwise, they feel and drive almost identically in most everyday driving (except for power).
Both have been fairly bulletproof.. as is typical for most Hondas..
Back when I first joined, there where several kinds of posts. The one not mentioned above was people flaming CR-V owners for not driving a "real" truck.
These boards are focused a great deal on buying and maintaining CR-Vs. I've made a few attempts to organize owners for trips and/or events, but most of the enthusiasts visit other forums. Edmunds just has a different crowd.
Torque steer IS NOT the same thing as PTTR. Some people may confuse the two but I would hope that someone who is inches from going to arbitration on their vehicle would know the difference. Otherwise me thinks they will be laughed out of the hearing.
Torque steer is a function of the vehicle (due to power and FWD combo). Many vehicles have it (ooh I wonder how many of those owners want their money back, LOL).
PTTR results from a misalignment and/or a problem with tires.
Comments
Common sense dictates that any entity (i.e. Honda) that places a product into the mainstream of commerce that is a potential fire hazard, warn the public and provide education to their trained service technicians on how to use "a minimal bit of extra care and common sense" in order to prevent engine fires. Honda's blanket denial that a problem exists and the subsequent blanket denial of any liability once the problem has become obvious to the general public and government does not nothing to bolster Honda's credibility. I understand your unconditional loyalty to Honda since I am sure you are rewarded handsomely for your efforts. However, the relentless biased advocacy by a Honda employee only continues to diminish the reputation of Honda by those reading these Boards. Steve
I agree that double gaskets can and do happen on any vehicle. Identifying a manufacturing problem with the factory-installed oil filters certainly helped cut down on the number of CR-V fires. But, just like any other vehicle, double gaskets can, and will, happen with CR-Vs. The difference, as far as I can tell, is that with most/all other vehicles, you get a nasty oil spill. Did the Toyota Camry that spewed oil - did it catch on fire?
Ecotrklvr: ”This is starting to go the way of the Audi Unintended Acceleration fiasco. That proved to be Unintended, all right. But those folks were still hitting the accelerator, and not the brake. Check it out for yourselves on that one.”
And this is a good comparison to the CR-V fires? Are you calling the CR-V fires a fiasco because factory-installed oil filters were more prone than usual to result in double gaskets? Or because Honda-trained technicians and other mechanics have shown some difficulty in removing the old gasket before installing the new filter?
Audi owners were hitting the gas pedal. What specifically are CR-V owners doing to cause these fires? Trusting their dealer to correctly change the oil? Or buying the CR-V in the first place?
Isellhondas: Finally, a sensible post! Your Audi example is an excellent one. People just won't take personal responsibility.
That’s a nice thought in the abstract. But tell me, what irresponsible act are CR-V owners guilty of when their CR-Vs have caught fire? Did they make a mistake in taking their CR-V to their Honda dealer for their oil change? Did they take their CR-V to the same place as their other vehicles for the oil change, expecting the same results?
As a person who sells Hondas, are you really saying that CR-V owners should show greater personal responsibility when it comes to oil changes by doing such changes themselves and NOT taking their CR-Vs to their Honda dealer? If that’s not what you mean, please explain how CR-V owners can show more personal responsibility in preventing these fires.
I'm not trying to protect anyone and I sure do not speak for Honda. you can believe this or not but I would be saying the same thing if this were another make or model. A couple of years ago when the Toyota "sludge" issue was being beat to death, I even jumped in and suggested it was more than likely a result of people not changing their oil often enough. I still believe that.
I do hope Honda corporate people read these forums too and make product changes accordingly.
Still, you can't make a car idiot proof. If a mechanic fails to tighten a bleeder screw, the car will lose it's brakes and if someone forgets to tighten the lug nuts on one wheel it can fall off...happened to me.
People like to argue how a manufacturer "could" or "should" have designed something differently to prevent damage caused by carelesness.
Tell it to the NHTSA! Actually, it is probably too late. It appears that other Honda advocates tried your same argument and failed. Don't fret over it too much though, I'm sure there will be another problem with Hondas in the future that will enable you to lay the blame on anyone or anything other than Honda. From the looks of the last two years (engine fires and PTTR), you should not have to wait long. Steve
Why would anyone assume that all oil changes in question were done at Honda Dealers? Poor training on the part of those Honda dealers, to be sure. But these aren't Honda - they are not owned or operated by Honda. So why blame Honda? Let's not confuse Honda the Manufacturer with Honda Dealers. The problem lies with poor training of oil changers.
I've not seen the 2002+ oil filter location - is it really that bad? I've been reading this forum for years now, and until the oil fires, I didn't see any posts bemoaning the oil filter location.
I'll just continue driving, without the slightest fear, my wonderful CRV that does not pull to the right, left, or anything else.
Seriously, if you are that unhappy with or fearful of your CRV, you should probably sell it.
Many years ago, when I was in school, I worked part time in a gas station. I goofed up changing the oil on my own beloved 1962 Impala SS. It had a miserable canister filter. I must have pinched the gasket and I failed to check it for leaks when I was done. I drove away only to quickly smell oil burning. The filter dripped oil all exhaust manifold.
No, it didn't catch on fire but it sure could have.
The leak wasn't the fault of Chevrolet or the Purolater filter company and it wasn't the fault of Mobil Oil. It was the fault of a careless 18 year old who was in too much of a hurry to follow common sense procedure.
I didn't call a lawyer either.
You don't have to refer to it in such negative terms as 'arguing.' I prefer to call it playful banter. As I am sure you are aware, my unhapiness as related to my '05 CRV results from the PTTR problems. Hence, since Honda is either unwilling or unable to correct the problem, both parties will submit to arbitration based on the Lemon Law. I requested that Honda take the vehicle back. They refused. Apparently, they do not want a faulty vehicle either. Who does? I have inquired whether you would like to buy the vehicle. I received no response. I assume your lack of enthusiasm to purchase a vehicle with PTTR is for the same reasons as Honda's refusal to take the vehicle back. Steve
... to which, I think, ecotrklvr said: ”Why would anyone assume that all oil changes in question were done at Honda Dealers?”
I can’t speak for others on this forum, but I did not say it was just technicians at Honda dealers doing these oil changes. On the other hand, in reading over the complaints to the NHTSA, I see that a number of them specifically mention the dealer doing the oil change. And that was certainly the case with my first oil change ... the oil change that resulted in a double gasket and smoke - but no fire, because I caught it in time.
I would agree that there’s some poor training of oil changers. But logically, that poor training should show up in other vehicles and in other oil changes. I submit that it does, in the form of double gaskets, loose oil drain nuts, oil spilled on various parts of the vehicle, etc. But I’m not reading anything anywhere about any other vehicle having the kind of problem with engine fires that’s anywhere close to the degree that the CR-V continues to have.
I don’t know if the CR-V is designed in such a way as to make changing the oil filter that much more difficult than changing the oil filter on any other vehicle. I don’t know if the CR-V is designed in such a way that a serious oil leak (oil gush, oil spew, etc.) will lead more often to an engine fire than with any other vehicle. But I do know that it is not reasonable to expect technicians to show more ability to properly change the oil in one vehicle than in another. If the oil changers do what they have always done, some oil changes will be botched. And it seems to me that a botched oil change on a CR-V is one helluva lot more serious than with any other vehicle.
“I never said that” isellhondas said: ”Your Audi example is an excellent one. People just won't take personal responsibility.”
The Audi example shows that individual owners, not technicians and not the manufacturer, were at fault. You said that this was an excellent example. You seem to be comparing the two, the Audi and the CR-V, and so my question remains, what irresponsible act are CR-V owners guilty of when their CR-Vs have caught fire?
Have I missed something - has someone implied that CR-V owners are guilty of some irresponsible act? There are several parties involved in these fires, but no one has said it's the owners' fault. I'm merely pointing out that the pe4rson who changes the oil, and doesn't CLEAN THE GASKET SEAT, won't find the old gasket. Every gasket that's replaced on anything, won't work very well if it's placed onto a dirty gasket seat. Not cleaning it amounts to incompetence. Incompetent mechanics are to blame. Honda didn't change anyone's oil. So don't blame them - at least for this.
I don't. I already have a 2003 EX with only 14,000 miles.
Besides, yours is a 2WD.
Seriously, I haven't felt the PTTR that is affecting your CRV but I do hope your problem is rectified to your satisfaction.
Excellent idea! Here's the link: Honda CR-V engine fires
tidester, host
Marysville, Ohio 01/10/2005 -- Exercising its flexibility to produce both cars and light trucks in Ohio, Honda of America Mfg. has announced that it will begin production of the popular Honda CR-V sport utility vehicle at its East Liberty Auto Plant and an all-new Acura SUV at the Marysville Auto Plant, both in 2006.
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID0000?mid=2005011745918&mime=asc
So it looks like the new Acura RDX and CR-V will both be built in Ohio, probably for the 2007 model year (as someone else pointed out).
(user your imagination to insert a non-car smiley here)
In a word, yes, you implied that very thing. If this is not what you meant, then I interpreted it incorrectly. However, in your first message you talked for two paragraphs about oil changes - the need to be careful, check for the old gasket, clean "the machined flange on the engine block", if all CR-V oil changes were done correctly there would be no fires, etc. And all of that was fine. But then you said: "This is starting to go the way of the Audi Unintended Acceleration fiasco. That proved to be Unintended, all right. But those folks were still hitting the accelerator, and not the brake. Check it out for yourselves on that one."
My (admittedly limited) understanding of the "Audi fiasco" is that the problem of unintended acceleration was the fault of the Audi owners. You brought this example up in connection with the CR-V fires. If the Audi example is a good example to use when talking about the CR-V fires, and the Audi example is all about the owner being wrong and causing the problem, I'd like to know how CR-V owners are causing the fires.
"There are several parties involved in these fires, but no one has said it's the owners' fault."
Again, it was clearly implied in your message where you brought in the example of Audi and unintended acceleration. Either that was a poor example, or it was a good example ... and if it is a good example, then please just connect the dots for me and tell me how CR-V owners are responsible for CR-V fires, just the way Audi owners were responsible for unintended acceleration.
Then isellhondas chimed in with: "Finally, a sensible post! Your Audi example is an excellent one. People just won't take personal responsibility."
Same question to you. You said the Audi example is an excellent example, and that people just won't take personal responsibility. So take that next step.
Audi owners caused unintended acceleration by hitting the gas pedal when they should have hit the brake. CR-V owners cause CR-V fires .... how?
... or maybe just admit that the Audi experience illustrates a totally different kind of problem.
Take it to the proper forum. None of you are educating or protecting anybody. You're just making it impossible to read any thread related to the CR-V.
Now, with all due repect to the information you all have brought to the fires discussion, get out of here.
As posted above, some of CR-V production is being brought over here to North America. It's sorta old news, but when it was first announced the subject was talked over pretty extensively. Here's the short of it based on the consensus of that discussion.
The line is expected to start in early 2006. That's a wee bit early for producing the 2007 model CR-V (which we expect in October-November of 2006). However, it is possible that the line will start with production of the RDX earlier in the year, then add CR-V units to the line later.
Anyway, it's a pretty good bet that current generation CR-Vs are not going to be produced there. It doesn't make sense to have a line tooled up for a vehicle that is about to be redesigned.
On the quality front, first year bugs are always a concern. I'm sure there will be a few glitches with the first units of the G3 CR-V. However, I expect the same with the units built in Japan and Europe as well. Shifting production from the UK to the US should not be.
A great many old-school Honda fans (import fans, really) liked to claim that Japanese workers were superior to those from the US. They used that theory as a weapon in the import vs domestic wars. When Honda shifted Accord production to the US, that crowd had a choice. Give up the weapon, or give up the Accord. When the Accord did have a few problems, they gave up the Accord. But they never compared it with the problems they had with first year units from Japan. The truth is, US-built Accords had fewer warranty claims than those from Japan. But the word of mouth campaign ignored the facts and kept clinging to their old theory.
I apologize - it really isn't a good example at all. I just hate the whole "deep pocket"
model of assigning blame.
Let's move on as varmit suggested...
tidester, host
Yes, but there's no way of automating the process - it would have to be done one-post-at-a-time-by-hand.
tidester, host
I wish I had received a survey after our 5,000 mile service, or even the service the very next day (to fix the oil leak caused during the 5,000 mile service). I wish I had received a survey after our 10,000 service, when my request to watch the oil change - I was told "no problem" when I made the appointment - was ignored.
But instead - and I'm sure these surveys are sent out randomly (wink, wink) - I get a survey after a successful minor part replacement. The survey doesn't give the date of service, but it does say that "... you recently had work completed..." - guess I really shouldn't fill it in based on my August '04 experience, should I?
How can they improve if they don't get constructive feedback?
-juice
Good idea about the comments......
Did this service include: (Mark all that apply)
___ oil change ___ routine/scheduled maintenance ___ repair you paid for ___ repair covered by warranty ___ other
There is space for comments, and generally the four lines would be enough, but I think I have more to say. They give the option of filling out the survey online, and I may look into that.
Then again, I may just hang onto the paper survey for a while. I went out last night to check the glove compartment light - to make sure it went on and off with the switch - and the light never came on, whether the engine was running or not. Either the bulb has blown since the repair was done a couple of weeks ago, or the repair was never done or it was done incorrectly. Either way, it's another trip back to the dealer. Sigh.
Anything is possible but I would hope after working on your glove box light they wouldn't leave you with a blown out bulb.
In keeping the same small size (205/70/15), what have others been replacing with? This car is basically a grocery and kid hauler for my wife in a warm climate, and she is easy on the car. I almost went with the Yokohama Avid's, but ended up getting the Goodyear Assurance ComforTred. I think they had a higher treadwear rating and the Yoko's were in 215, not 205. Didn't want to mess up the speedo too much. We are very happy with the new tires, since they are passenger car tires, not light truck tires like the Duelers. The ride is quieter and the braking is noticeably improved, even with the original brakes.
(use your imagination to insert a non-car smiley here)
When I first saw the new CRV I was disappointed that with 7 years to work on it that this was the best that Honda could do as a follow up. There are reptiles in Florida that have evolved more quickly in 7 years then the CRV.
And the current generation continues to disappoint with questionable quality, customer service, ergonomics and design.
Did the old CRVs have mundane issues such as catching on fire more and having more of a problem with "torque steering" aka PTTR? Steve
I've got a '99 CRV with 106K miles, had the 105K service last month, includes timing belt change, $650 for everything, never had even one unexpected problem, still going strong.
Did the old CRVs have mundane issues such as catching on fire more and having more of a problem with "torque steering" aka PTTR? Steve
I am sure if someone double gasketed the old CR-V oil filter it would catch on fire eventually.
PTTR was an issue with the 1st generation CR-V as well.
The oil filter is right above the exhaust. I've burned my arm a couple times changing the filter, and it isn't easy to see the engine block. Never had a double gasket though. I don't know how it is in relation to the 2nd gen CRV. Maybe someone else has experience with both gens.
Was the PTTR with the 1st gen just the early years? And was there a fix? I haven't heard of that.
-juice
Gen 1.. great visibility, no sunroof, no tinted glass for the wagon section.. painfully slow (127 HP), but that was helped by the stick..
Gen 2.. Sunroof!!, indash CD changer, gobs of power-even with the slushbox, less visibility with the rear-door design, easy fold rear seats without removing headrest..tinted glass in wagon section (keeps it much cooler).
Otherwise, they feel and drive almost identically in most everyday driving (except for power).
Both have been fairly bulletproof.. as is typical for most Hondas..
regards,
kyfdx
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These boards are focused a great deal on buying and maintaining CR-Vs. I've made a few attempts to organize owners for trips and/or events, but most of the enthusiasts visit other forums. Edmunds just has a different crowd.
Torque steer is a function of the vehicle (due to power and FWD combo). Many vehicles have it (ooh I wonder how many of those owners want their money back, LOL).
PTTR results from a misalignment and/or a problem with tires.
The new one has a lot more torque and mates better to an automatic transmission, IMHO. It also scores much better in crash tests.
More features now but the price also went up, so I wouldn't use that against the early ones.
Not to take anything away from ole reliable, but the new one was an improvement.
-juice