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Toyota 4Runner



  • intmed99intmed99 Posts: 485
    First, most modern SUV nowadays with ATRAC/4-ETC/etc. can make through an obstacle with one wheel traction. That is no longer a mighty feat. Since they all have the same system, what DIFFERENTIATES one from another is how flexible the suspension is. Wheel on the ground is ALWAYS better than no wheel. Do you agree? How about this: if your wheels are on the ground, you activate ATRAC less...thus, resulting in less brake pad wear (or even burn out of the brakes in heavy duty terrain)...thus, in essence, a more durable off-roader.

    And i NEVER said that wheel articulation is the only thing that mattered. Please don't put words in my mouth.

    BTW, FYI, multi-plate clutch packs are generally not highly regarded due to the fact it wears down and needs frequent lubrication. Examples: Acura MDX's rear differential, Jeep GC Varilok/quadradrive crap, Honda CRV's rear diff, etc. Here is another fact: most off-roaders prefer GEAR-based differentials due to better durability...guess what "Torsen" is famous for?? Hint: Torsen LSD is gear-based. In off-roading, they make Detroit Truetrac. With regard to Torsen in '03 4Runner, i assume it is gear-based also.

    Remember, those same "people in the know" thought the Mercedes ML was the greatest gift to human to do everything on another level, even off-roading. Well, at least in off-roading, it flunk big time once it was trail-tested against other conventional SUVs!

    Yeah, i know, most people will never know the difference. Remember, we're talking about each vehicle's CAPABILITY, not what it will be used for by soccer moms.
  • intmed99intmed99 Posts: 485
    but, in the pic above, the right rear wheel should compress a whole lot more, even if it is IRS. I think my old CRV had more compression than that...really! Oh yeah, high-performance tires are great for off-roading! Geez!
  • intmed99intmed99 Posts: 485
    This is my friend's CRV during one of our off-roading trips (when i still had my CRV):

    He was stuck. However, notice the rear it compresses.

  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    The only reason you (re)introduced that Touareg image was to prove your point regarding the superiority of solid axle "articulation." Period.

    Who cares? The Touareg with limited articulation will probably go any place off road your '02 4Runner can go, and blow your gen3-Runner into the weeds on road. I'd love to see a test of your '02 4Runner against the Touareg, just to shut you up. Unfortunately, it will only be matched against a new '03 4Runner, which I'm sure it will do quite well against.

    As far as I'm concerned, the new '04 4Runner (or Touareg) will be as a capable off road as I (or most people) will ever need.

    As I stated many posts back we'll just have to agree to disagree. You have your opinions, and I have mine. Now can we get back to 4Runners, afterall this is a 4Runner forum...

  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    I thought you made an awfully big deal about articulation initially and it was countered. I didn't see anyone putting words in your mouth.

    I like the suggestion to agree to disagree and move on.

    Steve, Host
  • Did I just read in one of the posts above that you got a 03 limited 4runner for 3k of list?

    What dealer and state?
  • intmed99intmed99 Posts: 485
    Geez, don't get offended! This is just a debate. Shut me up?? Ok, i better get off the topic before you start cursing at me. Apparently, we are not talking about off-road ability...but rather ON-road ability (you know, the thing that will blow my 4Runner into the weeds). Geez, i should go out and get an SUV to drag race! I thought we were talking about solid axle vs. IRS in OFF-ROADING. Guess not. Sorry.

    Rsholland, so you admit it...IRS is very limited in ability. The only thing that makes it any capable is the other systems (traction control systems, torque, etc.), which is present on most SUVs today.

    Steve, please re-read my posts above...and try to comprehend the arguments presented here. Rsholland and I are debating (at least i think we are) about IRS vs. solid axle in off-roading. He pointed out the limited '03 4Runner rear axle travel (he started it!)...and now i am pointing out the embarrassing wheel travel of his hero, VW Touareg.

    Ok...i won't mention this again IF it is not brought up again.
  • intmed99intmed99 Posts: 485
    This forum is for ALL 4Runners! I can talk about my '02 4Runner, can't i??
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    I've stated my position. Time to move on...

  • I think the trend hear is to frown on specific dealer/salesman name dropping (for the record I'm just a consumer like the rest of us). That said, I visited a dealer in the Asheville, NC, that uses a no hassle price policy and had 3 new '03 runner's discounted by 2-3k below msrp. I'm not quite ready to purchase myself, but if I was I'd probably be going to them. Hope that helps.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,683
    Dealers names are fine - we frown on posting salesperson's names and contact info. Thanks for asking!

    Steve, Host
  • Hello

    Just wondering if anyone in Canada ordering an new 2003 4-Runner below MSRP. Went to a couple of dealer, none of them seem to offer any discount?

  • peter78peter78 Posts: 284
    "foghorn48" may of been talking about Jim Barkley Toyota in Asheville N.C.. It has a web site with one price shopping. They currently have 4Runners $800 to $2300 off. Also I notice a dealer in CA. that has a web site and their discounts are $1500 to $2100 off, they are Carson Toyota.

    Being new, some dealers may deal while most won't. I say hang on awhile or do your home work. I remember buying a Honda in 1980 from another state, not to save money, but simply to find one. It worked out pretty well. I try to buy from a local dealer if I can.

    Oh yes if you want to get to Jim Barkely Toyota or Carson Toyota you will have to figure out their web site since I probably can't post it, but if you know their names it wouldn't be hard to figure out. Also you may want to try your local dealer's web site or simply go by and visit, I don't think this is exactly a sellers market, I believe deals will come, maybe not right away, but they should come.
  • aufan1aufan1 Posts: 21
    For those who do not like the cladding on the SR5 and don't want a limited...
    I talked to a dealer today and he said Toyota could make a midyear revision IF they get enough complaints about it.
  • jvkalrajvkalra Posts: 98
    I checked out the 03 today, and found both the driver's seat (after adjusting it), as well as the rear seat kind of uncomfortably low. Uncomfortable may be a strong word, but I'd like to sit more upright. I'm not quite 6'.

    Anyone else feel the same way? Also, this is an apples/oranges comparision, but with the CR-V or Pilot the seating positions are more upright and comfortable. Maybe this has something to do with a car vs truck platform.
  • Cliffy:
    Thanks for the xreas explanantion. Any first hand knowledge or educated guesses about how it might effect offroad performance (articulation), positively or negatively?

    Chris, Peter and Steve:
    Thanks for the clarification of the ground rules. Yes the dealer I went to, was indeed Jim Barkley Toyota. Very impressed with the sales staff, pricing policy and selection. That said their no hassle pricing might mean that you won't get your absolute best deal there when discounts become more widely available.

    Nice pickup on how to influence Toyota. Will be going to they're site next. Here's an idea that might not work (too expensive?), but has the best of both body cladding options in my mind.... First lose the notched fenders, then how about color keyed cladding that still retains the matte finish/textured surface of the grey suff now? It would still be chip/scratch resistant, but wouldn't be so reminiscent of a Pontiac Aztek/Chevy Avalanche. Just a thought.
  • I've heard that when the V6 does come out in Dec/Jan that it will only be available in SR5/Sport and not Limited, has anyone heard differently???
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    website says it comes standard with V-6 - surely they can't ship EVERY SINGLE limited with the optional engine.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    for 4Runner fans with an engineering talent...

    As we all know, Toyota and other SUV brands have put a tow limit of 1000 pounds on any trailer that is lacking trailer brakes. We also know that most states require trailer brakes over a certain weight. With that in mind, my state (Maryland), requires trailer brakes on any trailer over 3000 pounds. The 3000 pound state limit is probably the most common limit imposed by most (although not all) states.

    Okay, that leaves a 2000 pound descrepency between what Toyota requires (1000 pounds) and the state of Maryland (3000 pounds). Is it possible (or realistic) for Toyota (or any brand) to offer either: A) larger brakes, as part of a tow package, that could make up the 2000 pound brake descrepency? Or, B) put an extra set of calibers on the brakes, that would only activate when the trailer is hooked up, using the 7-pin plug once the wire is plugged in, as a trigger to activate the extra brake calibers? Or, C), a combination of both A & B?

    I would think some sort of a solution like this would make a lot of sense. It seems doable to me, but I'm not an engineer...

  • aufan1aufan1 Posts: 21
    Another option for Toyota would be to offer the SR5 with the body colored cladding (like the limited) and make the Sport with the gray GM look. Those who would want the cladding to avoid offroad scratching would be more inclined to purchase a sport anyway.

    It couldn't possibly be too expensive to switch the production process over to another type of cladding which they are already using on some models.

    It almost looks like if you had a minimal amount of skill with a screw driver you could pop that cladding off and switch it out...thus it couldn't possibly be too complicated for Toyota to do it somewhere along the production line!
  • A) Larger brakes
    You're after surface area which equals heat disipation. One may increase the surface area of a disc brake through either increasing the outside diameter of the disc, or decreasing the hub diameter of the disc. If you increase the outer diameter you need larger rims, and if you decrease the hub diameter, well, that will require your wheel hub to be smaller, which probably isn't very likely. ( there are of couse slotted and drilled rotors for increasing surface area, gassing of the pads, and increased air flow, but you can only do so much).

    B) adding extra set of calipers
    Bad idea because you will very quickly liquify your discs. Not to mention that even when the other calipers are not engaged, the disc will not be able to loose heat as rapidly because the extra set of calipers are in the way blocking radiation.

    D) No matter how good the vehicle can brake, the trailer will still be pushing the rear end forward (and if not in a perfectly straight line, which they are not, it will be pushing the rear end AROUND to the front). Actually adding better brakes to the vehicle itself could be even worse as the vehicle now has the ability to stop faster and that trailer doesn't want to. Must add trailer brakes.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Posts: 3,581
    There are states that require brakes for trailers over 1000 pounds. I don't recall which states those are, but they are out there.

    As you know, I do a lot of towing. I did tow a smaller aluminum boat that probably weighed 1200 to 1500 when loaded with gas and equipment. I didn't have brakes on the trailer and owned a T100. Stopping wasn't a real problem but did require more forethought when approaching an intersection.

    I now own a boat that weighs 4200 on the trailer. I opted for disc brakes on BOTH axles. It isn't required to have this set up, nor did my boat dealer think I needed it. Without the dual brake set up, I'm sure I wouldn't suffer and it would not be unsafe. With the dual brake, I actually can almost stop faster when towing than when I am not. Surge brakes do work quite well.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    << B) adding extra set of calipers
    Bad idea because you will very quickly liquify your discs. Not to mention that even when the other calipers are not engaged, the disc will not be able to loose heat as rapidly because the extra set of calipers are in the way blocking radiation. >>

    I was under the impression that some race cars use extra brake calibers, per brake. I figured if it works for competition vehicles, it could perhaps work on everyday vehicles too. Am I wrong?

    << Must add trailer brakes >>

    No question; just trying to figure out a way to bridge the 2000 pound gap here in Maryland, and in most states, between what Toyota requires and what the state(s) require.

    Thanks for your input.

  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    I believe California has a 1500 limit. There are a couple of states with no limit, a couple with a 2000 pound limit, and perhaps a couple with a 4000 pound limit. Beyond those, all other states have a 3000 pound limit. If I'm not mistaken, you're in Virginia, and I believe their limit is also 3000 pounds.

    My concern, apart from safety, is the liability issue. If you should cause an accident, and was operating the vehicle and trailer outside of the manufacturer's recommendations, while still being within the state's limitations, you may(?) be putting yourself at risk, in terms of claims, either by you, or someone trying to sue you.

  • Can any one definitely say how the torsen operates? Is it related to a viscous coupling? Clutches, wet or dry? Gearing, if so how does the gearing "know" how to engage/disengage? Thanks.
  • In the Toyota University PDF file, they explain the operation of Torsen LSD. Basically, the Torsen worm gears transfer torque based on transitional states; that being static, front-bias, or rear bias. Once the worm gears develop an axial thrust, they apply pressure to two disc clutch packs on each end. The clutches transmit torque as long as axial thrust (traction difference) continues and maintains fixed torque split until drive torque is reduced. The static front/rear torque split is 40%/60% and is determined by the radius of the sun gear (inner gear that drives the front wheels) and the ring gear (outer gear that sends torque to the rear axle). There are three possibilities:

    1) When both axles have equal traction, (static situation) the torque split is 40% front/60% rear

    2) When the front wheels begin to slip, the difference in torque causes up to 70% of the torque to be sent to the rear wheels

    3) When the rear wheels slip, up to 53% of the torque is directed to the front wheels
  • I just drove the 03 4runner Limited and I pretty much concur with what most people have already stated. The V8 engine and drivetrain are superb but I do have some concerns. I am 6'1" and with the sunroof and the front seats all the way down, my hair was brushing against the headliner at the edge of the sunroof. Does anyone know how much additional headroom would be available without the sunroof; and whether any Limiteds would be coming without sunroofs? The other things that were a bit disappointing, were the lack of rear seat leg room, as cliffy said, there is no place to put your feet under the front seats, so your knees are way up in the air with no thigh support. The rear storage area also appeared to be quite small compared to my Explorer, about 6" less deep.

    The Limited had the X-REAS suspension on it but not the air suspension. It also had a "FO" option which was a sport bumper trim package for $599. Is this something the dealer adds or is it a Toyota option?
  • beagles3beagles3 Posts: 132
    Well, on Sat I took my 6'4 husband for a test drive at a local dealership. It is his decision that will make up my mind for the $40,000 expenditure. He absolutely loved the handling, the smooth & powerful V8 and all the COOL gadgets on the inside. He felt that over our third generation it had been bettered with both more leg room and more width,but, had an issue with the headroom and the fact that the windshield seemed a little bit smaller (height) and more angular to see thru? The other thing was that the window buttons are really down there and if someone had very large hands, well, it would become difficult and uncomfortable to adjust while driving?

    Now to the outside, it has not grown on us thus far, even without the cladding, the squared off fenders leave us feeling like we are driving a GM product. I guess that when I purchase a vehicle for big $$, I need to love the outside appeal as well. Until I start seeing more on the road and visually accepting this angular looking rig, I will continue to happily drive my 1999 SR5. I love Toyota products,but, with a hefty price tag, I will wait and see if this new design will grow on us anytime in the near future???
  • jtm4jtm4 Posts: 60
    Has anyone seen a commercial for the 2003 4Runner? Seems odd that they've been at the dealers for a week and I haven't seen a TV add. I still see TV adds for the 2002 model w/rebate. Are they still trying to reduce 2002 inventory? Are they waiting until the end of the month, when the current 2002 rebate ends?
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