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I'm convinced the fold-into-the-floor third row seat will become a must-have for this type of vehicle, just as 4 doors became must-haves for extended-cab pickups and minivans.
Bob
I've got 2.0 kids and love the 4Runner and don't want anything bigger. It would be nice to have the seats to take in and out as needed for hauling their friends around or two adults like sardines for a ballgame or such.
Steve
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I wish they folded flat, though, because I really don't like the Landcruiser-style seats. I've never checked this out, but could someone tell me whether or not they come completely out on the 'Cruiser, if you don't want them blocking your view or cargo area? I wouldn't mind quite as much if they were removable.
The Facts:
1995 4Runner SR5, V6, Auto, 4x4, 55K miles
The Problem:
First "Electric" service light came on.
It still comes on and off sometimes.
Coughs when first staring in the morning.
Usually a burst of fumy smoke when starting.
It's worse when damp out.
Lives 1/2 mile from beach in Florida.
Sputters taking off from traffic stop.
Going 40-45 mph without accelaration, followed by acceleration through 45-50mph, it will "keep bucking", until pounding the gas causing a downshift, then bucking stops.
Engine light comes on and off sometimes.
Only has 55k miles on it, mostly small town stop and go traffic.
Dealer has done the following, at a cost of about $850, and problem is still the same:
New igniter.
New distributer cap.
New plugs.
New 'wires'.
Fuel injectors cleaned.
Changed transmission fluid.
This is a single female friend of mine, who is now afraid to drive alone because she thinks it may 'die'. She is thinking of selling, but I think this is a very solvible problem.....she has had it to the dealer 3 times to no avail. She loves the truck except for this.
I told her someone out here will know better than her dealer.
Any Ideas?
>this was just one insider's take on the new
>design
There were 4 of us in the room that saw the video and came to the same conclusion, but you're right in that it's just an opinion, like everyone else's in here. One major difference, though, is that I have actually seen a company promotional video of the new 4Runner, and I don't believe anyone else in here has.
I've seen the spy shots. We saw the new style in a close up video, no cladding, 180 degree wrap around the car and a 360 of the interior. But they wouldn't give us any photos to scrutinize or mull over. We have to go strictly from memory. I haven't seen any post in here that can equal our experience. I'll take a Toyota company video over all the spy shots out there, expecially the grainy ones in snow with black cladding on a black vehicle. No, it doesn't look anything like the Lexus, but yes, many of the components are the same.
>The thing is, we're going by what insiders are
>telling us, but they may not be privy to all of
>Toyota's plans
Very true, most of us aren't privy to ANY of Toyota's plans, but that's true for ALL vehicle manufacturers. It's a very competitive market, and all of them want to 'tease' you without divulging too much to the competition.
You've also had many 'red herrings' in here, like Buzzlight, spreading misinformation and denying real information. So you have to take everything with a grain of salt.
We're real close now, we've held together this long, we just need to wait another month or so and they'll start appearing at the dealerships. Then we can all go out and buy one, right?
"""""
/0-0
>
\_/
Now, not all regions will offer all models, but for certain the Southern CA region will bring the V8 only in thru the first three months. Look for this car to debut on the west coast in early mid to late Sept, and in any kind of decent volume in October.
The 8642 is the V6 2wd, and the Sport model now has its own model code: 8646. The 8648 is the V6 Limited (as it is now).
The V6 4WDs are the same as they are this 2002 year - SR5 is a 8664, but the SPORT edition now carries its own model code as an 8666.
The V8 models are all new model codes, same configurations as above - three of each, 2WD or 4WD. One significant thing is that all V8 models have the 5-speed automatic transmission. The V6'es have a 4-spd automatic.
I have seen this car in photos, spy-shots, and I'd say it looks like nothing I have seen before other than a slight resemblance to Sequoia, it's big brother! The bulges over the wheel wells are making it far better looking than a current model, and best off, that V8 is the same motor as Sequoia. But, alas, no third rear seat in store for us.
I promise to post more detail as I get it.
CF
Rward99 or semantics, can you share more detail about the front-end styling? I'm a little concerned when I hear it resembles a Sequoia, because I don't really care for it's styling. I think it's too wimpy-looking, in an over-sized way, kind of like Baby Huey. I was hoping the new 4Runner's front-end would maybe have a closer resemblance to the RAV4, or the top half of the front of the Highlander. Which headlights, grill, and bumper do they resemble more? From the spy shots, it looks like a melding of all three, with a touch of the center bulge of the current 'Runner's bumper. As long as it's as tough-looking as the current 4Runner, I'll be happy.
One last question for you both. What's your take on whether or not Toyota will offer the 3rd row, maybe for mid 2003 or for 2004? I know it may be way too far off to know for sure, but what's your best guess?
Thanks, guys! You're really helping me hold my sanity together. ;o) Only about a month and a half to go...
Bob
Even the new Ford Explorer has a third row seat. It's small, though. And with that third row in use (it's a bench, so no, you can't fold down one half and use the other half for all of your passengers' stuff), there is barely enough space for two or three grocery bags. But that extra seating capacity is there in the new Explorer, and if you're in a pinch, you can cram your most obnoxious buddies way back there (or your in-laws).
Just like most Ford SUV buyers can size up for themselves (no pun intended)how much space they need in either an Explorer or Expedition, I'm sure that Toyota buyers have the intellectual capacity to choose the vehicle that best suits their needs. By putting the third-row seat in the 4Runner, I think that people who normally don't look at Toyotas (or can't afford them) will cross over and buy a 4Runner instead of a Pilot, Durango, or Explorer, big sellers that do offer seating for 6+.
Here's the math that Toyota has to do with their Casio calculators: which number is greater?
A. The miniscule amount of Toyota loyalists who may abandon plans to buy a Sequoia because of this "alleged" third row seat in the new 4Runner.
B. The amount of customers who, having originally intended to buy a non-Toyota midsize SUV that could fit more than 5 passengers, ended up buying a 4Runner instead.
I would venture that, even without a calculator, the amount of "crossover" customers would vastly outnumber the lost sheep who wander from the abundant pastures of the Sequoia into the warm fields of the smaller, but still profitable for Toyota, 4Runner.
But I'm not in the auto business doing design or marketing, I'm just a junior high school teacher. The former explains my inability to predict what the vehicle I want to buy wil look like. The latter contributes both to my poor spelling and grammar.
muskadine
For the 3rd seat I would guess that Toyota:
1. didn't feel there was enough demand
2. added too much cost
3. didn't have time to work it out
4. wants to wait it out and see how it works for the other auto manufacturers
Will it cost them some sales? Sure, some people will definitely look elsewhere for a 3rd seat, but that's always true for many things, with price probably being the biggest thing to make people go to the competition.
Will a 3rd seat be offered mid year?
I think that unless they just didn't have time to release it at the beginning of this model year they won't do it mid year. If it's on the board I would look for it next model year.
Something else to consider is that the new 2004 Sienna will be bigger, have more horsepower than its predecessor, 4WD, full side curtain airbags, 3rd row disappearing seat and better gas mileage than the SUVs. So Toyota customers will also have that as an option as well as the Sequoia.
Bob
A lot of what has been discussed lately about the 4Runner has been about the new model that's coming out soon. And much of that talk has been based on guessing what the new 2003 will be like. Since we haven't seen clear pictures or a reliable spec sheet, our discussion fodder consists largely of some insider tidbits that have been shared by a few folks who claim to be in the know.
So your comment about the ostensible third row seat representing too much of an incestual inbreeding of features in the Toyota SUV family (Get out the banjos, baby. Yee-haw!), is a very perceptive one.
Why? Because all people like me can do who can't decide to get a lame-duck 2002 or a 2003 is speculate and second-guess Toyota's design and marketing strategy.
Toyota must have some kind of plan for their Disney-like family of vehicles. You want to have some kind of gradations and differences between your vehicles as they are phased in, refined, and phased out. Some vehicles may get little goodies down the line to rekindle interest when a particular model's sales slow down.
Here's my theory, especially regarding the seat thing:
Toyota releases the new 4Runner next year. Being new, and since SUVs are still hotter than a winter in Hades, the 2003 could have five lawn chairs for seats and it will still sell very well. The Limited gets more upscale while the SR5 faces a price freeze or small cut. But dealers will still get MSRP for a while since it's the new darling on the block. Watch Pathfinder sales suffer meanwhile until Nissan redoes that redoubtable offroader. In 2004 at the earliest if at all, Toyota adds a third row seat for so that we cary passengers native to Lilliput.
So yeah, maybe the Runner vs. Sequoia seat thing is a bit far fetched, and you had me going there, buddy. But in principle, it's indicative of a manufacturer's desire to not have too much redundancy in it's product lineup. What might happen if the Highlander and the 4Runner both added extra seats next year? People would have a heck of a time trying to figure out which Toyota to get!
But I'm not sure if that last sentence is toungue in cheek!
muskadine
=o)
It will be very interesting to see how the Sequoia will fare now that the new Expedition (with it's split-fold-down third seat) has hit the streets. My feeling is that the Sequoia matches mostly closely to the Expedition, of all the full-size SUVs, so the comparison becomes all the more valid. The success (or failure) of the Sequoia's split-fold-up third seat vs. the Expedition's split-fold-down third seat will be interesting to watch, in terms of sales gains or losses—especially if and when Toyota ever decides to offer a third seat for the 4Runner in the future.
Bob
Contact Macneil Automotive at: http://www.weathertech.com/main.asp
or www.macneilautomotive.com
phone: 800 441 6287
Look up Weatherflectors
I have a set of the Weatherflectors on my 02 4Runner windows and they are great, much better than using tape on type. They cost $79.95 plus shipping for a set of four. You can purchase just for the front but I recommend buying all four. I do not know why Toyota does not sell them as OEM parts? These fit inside the window frame, will not interfere with the opening and closing. One of the best upgrades I made to my 02 Thundercloud Sport Edition. Good Luck.
I'm proud to say I live in a country where I can freely elect to make "choices" about what I think, what I say, what I do, and what I buy. Our founding fathers did not intend to create a republic where government or public-opinion would coercively manipulate individual will. This, my friend, is called fascism. I respect your opinion to buy American products, but I'm disappointed that you would cowardly bait people with this kind of half-thought out rhetoric.
I urge you to take this topic to the appropriate forum, if you want to bring it on. There are a number of forum members who are much more knowledgable and informed about macroeconomic isses such as free trade and globalization than I am. If you do want to discuss this, but you probably don't--you want to babble and complain--you should stick to specific issues, not cowardly baiting. 'Cause last time I checked, that's what "sellout wimps" do: they behave like cowards.
muskadine
By the way, speaking of the Arlington cemetary. I wonder how many US pilots from WWII are buried there because of the shoddy quality of the US-made aircraft that were shredded by superior German and Japanese aircraft? Brave, my friend, is knowing that you're flying a F4F Hellcat, P40 Warhawk, or a early model P-51 with the crappy Allison engine against a Mitsubishi Zero or a FW-190. Those pilots fought hard despite the fact that they were using inferior weapons. I wonder what they would have chosen to fight with if they had a choice of using a Japanese or German plane. It was competition, my friend, that made the US stronger.
And that's the American way.
No use encouraging him to go to N&V, Muskadine - Pf_flyer uses the Big Bazooka over there:-)
Steve
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Bob
Steve
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muskadine
You folks on this forum display the utmost integrity and I will continue to follow this forum because of your professionalism and experience....
I hope you weren't referring to me when you made this statement. I own an Explorer and have posted several references here about the new Expedition and Explorer. I was NOT trying to "bait" anyone, just trying to point out facts, and to encourage an interesting dialogue.
Bob
This isn't such a big deal if you only tow infrequently. If you do it a lot, or push the capacity of the truck, you are more likely to develop creaks, rattles and wind noises if you have no frame.
>the RAV4 or Highlander, or closer to the
>Sequoia...
I saw the video in February, but I definitely remember that my first impression of the front end was that it looked like the Sequoia at the headlights and hood. Definitely not like the RAV4 or Highlander. The sides, I thought, were almost unchanged. The rear struck me as being somewhat like a Blazer. I couldn't tell if the rear window rolled down or not, but it appeared to be the solid rear door that the Sienna has.
I have to say that I was both let down and pleased at the same time. I had heard that this was going to be a "major" redesign, so I expected a BIG change. I was disappointed because I felt that it was pretty much the same design as before, but I was also happy that they had not made it into a Sequoia either. (I like the Sequoia for many things, but exterior styling isn't one of them. It reminds me of the old International station wagon, aka the "family truckster".)
There were no stats offered, but rumor in February was that it would be wider and a little longer, but all dimensions were less than the Sequoia. (Toyota doesn't care, by the way, if its models compete with one another. They can very easily control production. They would just make more of the one and not the other, and still rake in all the profits.)
True, but I think Toyota would rather see their models competing with Nissan, Ford, etc., rather than compete with in-house rivals. That's always been one of GM's biggest problems: Buicks would compete more with Oldsmobile, than with Mercurys or other outside brands. Competing with with outsiders is the only way you get *conquest* sales.
Also, one of Toyota's hallmark traits is *conservatism,* in terms of market approach, and with model upgrades. The same criticism has been leveled at Honda. Frankly, I wish they'd be more daring. I think Toyota took some chances with the new RAV4 and Celica, and, IMO, those vehicles are real winners. I'd like to see more of that from Toyota.
At the risk of introducing Ford back into this discussion, they made a very gutsy decision to introduce IRS into what is has always been a solid axle type of vehicle, with the new Explorer and Expedition. An additional payoff has been the ability to offer a fold-down rear seat—in vehicles that are no longer than the models they've replaced. (Note: GM had to add 13" to the TrailBlazer in order to offer the folding third seat.) Ford is going to win BIG in terms of sales because of those courageous marketing and engineering decisions.
Bob
For example, remember when the Cressida (Toyota's luxury car that hit stateside) came out? What was that, like in 1982? A lot of people thought that it was a joke that Japanese auto makers would spring a "luxury" vehicle on the US market. I mean, why would you drive a Toyota when you could drive a Buick, Olds, or Lincoln?
Case in point: my grandmother, lifelong Buick driver, now even drives a Toyota Camry!
And don't forget about, uh, what was it again? Oh, yeah. Lexus!
Even I used to make derisive remarks about Lexus, particularly some of their designs. But now Lexus is eating Lincoln, Cadillac, plus BMW and Mercedes for lunch. Okay, maybe that's a bit exagerrated, but Toyota has really done a good job expanding their US (and world?) market share by doing what GM (and Ford) should have done.
One more GM-Toyota parallel, but without the sorry GM ending (do I show too much of a bias?) Get in your time machine and go back to when Toyota announced its foray into "full-sized" trucks. Deja Vu with the Cressida/Lexus thing. Lots of people said stuff like, "No way can Toyota make a V-8." Or: "Only a wimp would buy a Japanese full size truck" (Poor allusion to the fellow who told us all off over the weekend).
I sure see a lot of dudes driving Tundras around my town who I wouldn't want to fight with in a dark alley.
And when the T100 tanked, Toyota bit the bullet and brought out the Tundra. GM or Ford would have just stuck their collective heads in the sand and continued to churn out a product that didn't have a place in the market.
Toyota not only learned where to emulate GM and Ford, but when they screwed up or miscalculated (T100) they were quicker to recognize and learn from their mistakes.
You get the picture. I won't elaborate much, but if Toyota can continue to conservatively expand their product base, but avoid the pathetic, wasteful brand redundancies rampant with the GM family, they'll continue to work their way up to being #1 in sales while continuing to make a quality product.
I mostly care about the latter than the former, just for the record. 'Cause last time I checked, I don't have a trust fund to help me finance expensive auto sales. And now that my wife just had a baby, she wants me to treat her to a new familymobile. So I need a quality product! But who doesn't?
But back to the 4Runner:
What Toyota does with the '03 Runner could be symbolic of its next strategic stab at the heart of the Big Three.
Regarding the new Ford Explorer (which I kind of like, too), Toyota ought to go balls out and just put that third row seat in the new Runner. Just don't compromise its ability to effectively go off road, or the 4Runner's rugged pedigree may become a thing of the past--along with a small contingent of its potential buyers.
Question for anybody who may happen to know: about what percentage of 2002 SR5 4Runners come with leather seats? Are they very common? Is Toyota likely to offer leather in some of the new 2003 SR5s?
I personally think the 4-Runner is a much better bet due to it's outstanding versatility,but, we are entitled to our own personal opinions. I would take the versatility over the ride any day(I drive 68 mi+ roundtrip from home to work everyday).
Does the side window deflector affect window tinting on the front windows? Will the deflectors cause tinting to peel at the top?
Toyota compromised the 4Runner a little too much in the '96 makeover, to be all things to all people including soccer moms, and it would be nice to see it get back to its truck roots. It is such a capable truck for offpavement stuff and towing.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Having said that, this conservative approach also has its pitfalls—especially when some other brand—who took a risky chance, and succeeded—like Ford, in this case. The first thing that comes to mind is: Why didn't Toyota think of that? Well, they very well "may" have thought of it too, but because of their conservative instincts, opted to play it safe. The net result is this (safe) approach unintentionally let Ford grab the leadership, and makes Toyota look sort of timid, if not outright dumb.
This happened to GM, Ford and Chrysler in the past few years. GM came out with a 3-door extended cab pickup, when everybody was coming out with 4-door extended cab pickups. Result: GM looked stupid, everyone else looked brilliant. Ford (and GM) came out with minivans with no sliding door on the driver's side, when Chrysler came out with a driver's-side sliding door. Result: Ford and GM looked dumb, and Chrysler looked brilliant. Chrysler recently came out with a redesigned minivan with a conventional third seat, whereas Honda's new minivan has a fold-into-the floor rear seat. Result: Chrysler looks dumb, and Honda looks brilliant. I fear the new 4runner will be put in the same situation.
Bob
You will not see this attitude change in your lifetime. To say that Toyota is conservative is like saying the Pope is somewhat religious.
Bob