I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

fintail · February 5

I've called that Ford corporate steering wheel the "Frowny face" wheel. They used it for a long time, I think my dad's 85 F150 had it, and it might have been used through the end of the "bullnose" style (1986).

Speaking of pickups and that Chevy 4 spoke design, I remember this one used in trucks well into the 90s, always thought it didn't look great:

roadburner · February 5

This is the only 4 spoke wheel I like. I have one hanging on the garage wall for when I buy a vintage BMW without an airbag.

uplanderguy · February 6

I like the Avanti's wheel, both the '63 interior-color style and the fake-wood '64 style shown here. Horn is activated by buttons in the two spokes. I do always chuckle a bit that the center says "Studebaker Corporation", which they also used on Lark clock bezels where there wasn't a clock.

Stude's president Sherwood Egbert wanted a "wood" wheel. I saw minutes of the board meeting where it was presented. The minutes show one board member saying he thought the wheel "looked cheap". The next line below was, "The wheel was approved for production by Mr. Egbert", LOL.

Looking closer, this was a well-optioned car. Has the factory AM-FM radio, and tilt wheel. The slide-out "Ladies Beauty Vanity" with mirror in the glovebox, was standard equipment. The instruments are Stewart-Warner.

kyfdx · February 6

tjc78 said:

@kyfdx said:

That reminds me of the Lincoln wheel from the '70s, but I might be mis-remembering.

The Lincoln had a rubber insert around the whole inside rim that was a horn button. Easy to find if it was your car, but ridiculous, considering every other car on the planet had horn buttons in the center.

Ahh…. The Rim Blow Steering Wheel. Phased out after 1974.

My 79 Continental had the wheel @stickguy showed. Nearly all of them had the “wood” break away at the ends.

Yeah, that was on my Mom's '72. That's the car I learned to drive on. Her '76 didn't have that.

fintail · February 6

The Avanti used real wood, right?

Speaking of 4 spokers, MB had a corporate steering wheel that lasted even longer than the Ford frowny face. For the R107 SL which debuted in 1971, a 4 spoke wheel was introduced that eventually made it to all cars. Here it is in a 1972 SL:

The style was adapted for an airbag around 1980 and lasted until 1991-92, here it is in a 1992 SL:

uplanderguy · February 6

No, the Avanti wood wheel was fake.

fintail · February 6

uplanderguy said:
No, the Avanti wood wheel was fake.

How about the dash and console?

uplanderguy · February 6

Fake, too.

One thing I liked about all Stude gauges of that period, no matter the model--glass lenses and chrome rings, instead of plastic.

fintail · February 8

Today out in the snow spotted a late 70s/early 80s Malibu sedan that looked to be in decent shape, and a 90s 911, I think a 964.

uplanderguy · February 9

Since day one I've really liked the '78 Malibu Classic coupe, but it seems like most of those cars have long-ago been turned into 'rods' around here. The sedans were proportionally odd I thought. I think the '81 roofline revision was an improvement, although at first I didn't care that the vertical break in the rear door glass was not parallel with the rear of the door--I remember you not liking that either! But minds can change--I used to not like the tapered B-pillar of '77-79 Fleetwoods and I like it now.

fintail · February 9

uplanderguy said:
Since day one I've really liked the '78 Malibu Classic coupe, but it seems like most of those cars have long-ago been turned into 'rods' around here. The sedans were proportionally odd I thought. I think the '81 roofline revision was an improvement, although at first I didn't care that the vertical break in the rear door glass was not parallel with the rear of the door--I remember you not liking that either! But minds can change--I used to not like the tapered B-pillar of '77-79 Fleetwoods and I like it now.

I remember Andre said something about the 00-04 Avalon reminds him of the 78-80 Malibu - I think the one I saw was a 6 window, so it was one of those. The non-parallel soft pillar in the formal roof 81+ is just a little irksome yeah, where for me anyway the B-pillar on 77-79 Fleetwoods is somehow interesting.

I remember when I was a kid kind of liking the 6 window for some reason, maybe because they were police cars when I was that age.

andre1969 · February 10

It's funny, but I never really noticed that off-kilter flip out vent window on the formal-roof midsized cars until we started talking about it here. But now suddenly, it's one of those things I can't un-see!

From many angles, I don't think it's even noticeable, but when you view the car dead-on, from the side, it draws attention to it. It almost looks like they're trying to line that soft pillar up with the rear of the C-pillar, rather than the rear of the door.

kyfdx · February 10

I think they put the angle in, purely to get the most rear window that would still roll down. Definitely should have matched the angle on the C-Pillar

andre1969 · February 10

kyfdx said:
I think they put the angle in, purely to get the most rear window that would still roll down. Definitely should have matched the angle on the C-Pillar

Nah, those rear windows were still stationary, even with the more formal-roof look. For ventilation all you got was the little quarter window the flipped out.

I think another thing that looks odd if you stare at it too long, is how repetitive the chrome trim is. First, you have the drip rails on the roof. Then the trim around the door itself. And finally, the chrome surrounding the bottom, top, and rear edge of the flip out vent. I wonder if they could have gotten rid of the chrome around the vent window, and just let the glass itself seal against the rubber gasket? It might have given a slightly cleaner look, and saved a buck or two on the assembly line.

imidazol97 · February 10

The front edge of the vent wing is NOT parallel to the back edge.
It's not parallel to the strong chrome strip on the front edge of the C-pillar.
It's not parallel to the back edge of the C-pillar.

I tried making it parallel to the back edge, and that would have looked awful.
Making it parallel to the chrome strip front edge of C would have looked better
but not quite right.

I think this was done by committee by trying different directions and picking
the one they thought was least disturbing to the eye.

andre1969 · February 10

On the subject of rear windows rolling down, one thing I started noticing, mostly with downsizing, was that the window glass was attached to the soft pillar at the rear, rather than the front edge of the door.

GM's '77 B/C-bodies did this, as well as Ford's '79 Panthers. The '79 Mopar R-bodies did it as well, although with their doors being frameless, it kind of made sense. The '76 Aspen/Volare and '77 Diplomat/LeBaron also did this, but still managed to roll down almost all the way, only sticking up about an inch and a half.

I wonder what the rationale was, for attaching the window to the soft pillar? If they had attached it at the front edge of the doorframe, they would have rolled down further, as more of the window could clear the rear wheel cutout.

When the FWD X-cars came out for the 1980 model year, the rear door glass was attached at the front, and as a result, actually went down further than it looked like it would. I wonder if there's any difference with regards to aerodynamics or wind buffeting on the back seat passengers, as to whether the window is anchored at the front of the door, or the rear?

kyfdx · February 10

andre1969 said:

kyfdx said:
I think they put the angle in, purely to get the most rear window that would still roll down. Definitely should have matched the angle on the C-Pillar
Nah, those rear windows were still stationary, even with the more formal-roof look. For ventilation all you got was the little quarter window the flipped out.

I think another thing that looks odd if you stare at it too long, is how repetitive the chrome trim is. First, you have the drip rails on the roof. Then the trim around the door itself. And finally, the chrome surrounding the bottom, top, and rear edge of the flip out vent. I wonder if they could have gotten rid of the chrome around the vent window, and just let the glass itself seal against the rubber gasket? It might have given a slightly cleaner look, and saved a buck or two on the assembly line.

The rear window doesn't roll down at all?

andre1969 · February 10

kyfdx said:
The rear window doesn't roll down at all?

Nope, not one bit. GM hollowed out the door panels in back on sedans, and wagons, to recess the armrests. Here's a '78 Malibu Classic, as an example:

The '78-80 had the big "picture window", that was simply too big to roll down, regardless, and had the flip out vent in the C-pillar. For 1980, the Cutlass and Century dropped their clunky "Aeroback" designs and went to the formal-roof look, like that '82 Malibu I posted earlier. The LeMans and Malibu adopted that roof for '81. And even though they moved the vent from the C-pillar into the door itself, the big window was still stationary.

It's been ages since I've been in the back seat of one of these cars. My grandparents had an '82 Malibu Classic Estate wagon for a couple years, and learned to hate it, fast. The stationary rear windows were just the icing on the cake. They also hated it because it was slow, tended to stall and sputter (as most early 80's domestics did), and it fried a couple ECUs. I've heard that the armrests were too far forward, to really be of much use. In fact, I seem to recall one of of here on Edmund's saying that, awhile back.

Most people attribute these stationary windows to cost cutting. However, I remember reading a Consumer Reports write-up on these cars from 1978, where GM claimed it was actually a result of wind tunnel testing. Apparently, at highway speeds, you actually got better air flow with the vent windows, than you would have with roll down rear windows. Although, I don't know if they were comparing that against a window that could roll all the way down, or the as-is "picture windows", which would only be able to roll down a couple inches, at best? Or perhaps somewhere in between.

I'd imagine though, at lower speeds, stop and go traffic, etc, these cars would roast you on a hot day without a/c.

I think GM was also trying hard to make these cars feel like genuine midsized cars, a worthy alternative to traditional midsizers like the Fury/Monaco and LTD-II/Cougar. When GM downsized the B/C bodies for 1977, they did give up a bit of shoulder room compared to 1976, but were still in range of the mastdon-class big cars from Ford/Chrysler...around 61". So GM didn't have to resort to tricks like hollowed out door panels with the '77 big cars.

But when the midsized cars shrunk for '78, the shrinkage was more noticeable. The typical '77 midsized car had about 59" of shoulder room, and the typical compact had around 56-57". The downsized GM midsizers for '78 had about 57-57.5", I believe. So they were closer to a compact in shoulder room, than what people expected out of a midsize. So, I think they resorted to tricks like those recessed armrests, to make the cars appear roomier. I think they also made the seats thinner on the downsized intermediates.

I'd imagine a lot of people complained about those stationary windows, but they didn't seem to affect sales. I'd think if there was enough of a backlash, GM would have corrected it. But they stayed stationary right up through the end in 1987, when the last Cutlass Supreme sedan rolled out of the showroom.

Chrysler made the back windows stationary on the '81 K-car sedans and wagons. They were also stationary for the first half of 1982. However, when the FWD LeBaron/400 came out, as mid-1982 they had roll-down windows in back. Most likely, this was because they had the little quarter windows in the back of the door blanked out with vinyl, similar to the M-body 5th Avenue. And since they used the same door as the K-car, it was just cheaper and easier to make them all roll down, rather than have some roll down and some stationary.

I also imagine Chrysler took a lot more flak than GM for those fixed-window cars, as the K-cars were compacts marketed at a lower price point than GM's midsized cars. As a result, they were probably less likely to have a/c, which meant fresh air ventilation was more critical.

kyfdx · February 10

ab348 · February 10

In the fall of ‘77 my dad bought a ‘78 Grand Lemans Safari wagon on introduction day and I was relegated to the back seat much of the time, with the fixed side windows and vent panes that were very close if not identical to what the sedans received in the early ‘80s. No A/C for us back then either. The heat issue seemed nonexistent since whoever was in front would have their window cracked on a warm day, plus the LeMans dash had 4 air vents high in the middle so you would get some air moving. But it would have been an improvement had they been operable.

I would say that the door trim did but you more sear seating width by recessing the armrest into the door. By doing away with the protruding armrest you gained 2”-3” on either side. I would also advise never buying a pilot line car, which I think this was. Lots of parts were either of subpar quality for fit and finish or didn’t work properly.

fintail · February 10

andre1969 said:
It's funny, but I never really noticed that off-kilter flip out vent window on the formal-roof midsized cars until we started talking about it here. But now suddenly, it's one of those things I can't un-see!
From many angles, I don't think it's even noticeable, but when you view the car dead-on, from the side, it draws attention to it. It almost looks like they're trying to line that soft pillar up with the rear of the C-pillar, rather than the rear of the door.

I am pretty sure the formal roof Malibu was aiming for the look of this car - no doubt these have rear door windows that roll down:

ab348 · February 10

I agree, Fin. I also have no doubt that the inoperable rear door windows were indeed sold to management as a cost savings.

fintail · February 10

ab348 said:
I agree, Fin. I also have no doubt that the inoperable rear door windows were indeed sold to management as a cost savings.

And almost 50 years later people still snark about the fixed rear windows that started with the buttless Cutlass. Penny wise and pound foolish. I recall some early K-car sedans also had similar rear windows.

andre1969 · February 11

Hey Kyfdx, Kirstie, or other admins...could someone check on Uplanderguy's account and see if there's anything you know of preventing him access to here? He texted me this morning and said he couldn't get in, the the little circle just keeps spinning and spinning like he's on dial-up! Thanks!

andre1969 · February 11

Speaking of that first-gen Seville, I notice here, that rear spacer window in the door has a slight taper to it, where it's just a bit narrower at the top, compared to the bottom. It's been awhile since I've seen one with the windows rolled down, but I seem to recall they follow the slope of the front edge of the window, rather than the soft pillar, and do go almost all the way down.

I do think the A/G-bodies with the formal roof do have a nice look to them overall, but when you see it side-by-side with the first-gen Seville, I think it really makes it look like a bad knockoff. I think it's mostly because the Seville has that long hood, and the front axle is further forward. It also looks like it has less front overhang than the Malibu does, but that could just be because of the proportioning. It could be the same amount of overhang, just a smaller percentage of the car's overall length.

I think the Seville's 15" tires also help give it a more sure-footed stance.

Kirstie_H · February 11

andre1969 said:
Hey Kyfdx, Kirstie, or other admins...could someone check on Uplanderguy's account and see if there's anything you know of preventing him access to here? He texted me this morning and said he couldn't get in, the the little circle just keeps spinning and spinning like he's on dial-up! Thanks!

Nothing wrong with his account. Most often, issues like this are either local, or due to a browser extension. My first suggestion would be to attempt sign-in using an incognito/in-private window. If that works, it's likely a browser extension. He can always connect with us by emailing help@edmunds.com.

imidazol97 · February 11

@andre1969 said:
Hey Kyfdx, Kirstie, or other admins...could someone check on Uplanderguy's account and see if there's anything you know of preventing him access to here? He texted me this morning and said he couldn't get in, the the little circle just keeps spinning and spinning like he's on dial-up! Thanks!

I had something similar happening on certain sites yesterday. I found I could log in using my phone on the same house wifi.

I suspect fb or other programs leaving trackers.

Rebooted computer and ran windows defender scan.

andre1969 · February 11

Thanks Kirstie and Imidazol97. I passed your comments on to Uplanderguy

imidazol97 · February 11

I'm home and tried logging on. All 3 browsers are doing the spinning circle after entering password. Chrome acted like there had been an update to it. I believe Brave and Firefox all use the chrome in their browser.

I can log in on chrome on my android phone.

My computer has a win 10 update on it that it's processing now. Maybe they're fixing a conflict.

@kistie_h @andre1969

kyfdx · February 11

I have Chrome and Windows 10. Of course, I'm never signed out.. lol

imidazol97 · February 11

I've tried incognito and private log in on Chrome browser and Brave on two different computers. Spinning circle after password on both.

I had a problem months ago that got a malformed entry error after putting in password. I ended up setting up a Brave browser only for edmunds.

I'm locked out of Edmund from both laptops. I haven't checked son's older tower engineering computer that i rarely use.
@Kirstie_h @andre1969

ab348 · February 11

Maybe the computer gods generally are cranky.

I do most of my TV watching these days via YouTube. The way I access it is via my cable/internet provider’s digital cable which has a YT channel that is like watching it thru the app. For whatever reason it works better than the Roku YT app, until today. I got notification of a new vid from one of the accounts I subscribe to, so I decided to give it a look. It came up with a Spanish soundtrack dubbed over the video (which was hilarious as it sounded like it was running at 2x speed, but annoying), and while you could go into Settings and see that in the first instance Spanish was selected as the language choice, if you tried changing it to English, the change was ignored. Later I tried to watch another vid and it was auto-translated into Indonesian and then even later I got one that was translated to German. All of these were originally created using English. Totally strange.

fintail · February 11

I found this for the Seville on ebay - I assumed the window rolled all the way down (as is usual on a MB anyway), maybe not:

On that note, kind of odd to find a clean door to a 77 Seville on ebay.

andre1969 · February 13

Don't Benzes tend to have rear doors where the front and back of the roll-down window are parallel to each other, and the quarter window is a fairly pronounced triangle? That way, they can position the soft pillar wherever they need to, to get the rear window to go all the way down.

I'd imagine having the window anchored at both the front and rear might help with buffeting, as well, rather than a window that leaves a gap as it rolls down, either at the front or rear.

Most domestic cars back in the old days, that relied on a quarter window in the back of the door tended to have a more squared-off roll-down window, and a more triangular quarter window, but then that started changing in the 70s. I guess the last domestics to be like that were the '79 Nova and its siblings? On the Aspen/Volare and the M-body offshoots, the rear window almost looks squared off, but as it rolls down it does leave a gap towards the front.

fintail · February 13

andre1969 said:
Don't Benzes tend to have rear doors where the front and back of the roll-down window are parallel to each other, and the quarter window is a fairly pronounced triangle? That way, they can position the soft pillar wherever they need to, to get the rear window to go all the way down.

I'd imagine having the window anchored at both the front and rear might help with buffeting, as well, rather than a window that leaves a gap as it rolls down, either at the front or rear.

Most domestic cars back in the old days, that relied on a quarter window in the back of the door tended to have a more squared-off roll-down window, and a more triangular quarter window, but then that started changing in the 70s. I guess the last domestics to be like that were the '79 Nova and its siblings? On the Aspen/Volare and the M-body offshoots, the rear window almost looks squared off, but as it rolls down it does leave a gap towards the front.

That's right, I think MB strategically placed the soft pillar to allow the window to retract fully. I think the soft pillar is virtually always parallel to the B-pillar, or vertical to the point where it doesn't impede. Like you mention, the soft pillar vanishing in many cars as the 80s moved on made a fully retractable window a rarity in some cars.

On the pillar note, I think I read on Malaise Motors that the non-parallel B-pillar on the 77-79 Fleetwood is just a cover, and it is normal underneath? I also notice Adam mentioned that detail in his latest video, funny how these topics appear everywhere at once.

fintail · February 13

A couple of odd ones on the gritty roads today - OG Jeep Gladiator pickup and an Olds Quad 442 driven by a little old lady.

imidazol97 · February 13

I saw 2 6th Gen malibu s, one white, one army green. This is the generation of Malubu Maxx, but these were both reg sedans. Great looking paint and no rust.

andre1969 · February 14

I can't remember the last time I've seen that style of Malibu. One of my Grandmom's friends had a Maxx. Grandmom called it a "Maxi". I was like Grandmom, please stop calling it that! 🤣

I wasn't a fan of that generation, style wise. Part of it was that the styling made them look really small. It looked more like a Civic or Corolla in size to me, even though it was midsized.

stickguy · February 15

In a driveway covered with snow a robins egg blue sunbeam alpine. And outside a shop (and I think used car dealer) a mid 70s late run nova. Green 4 door. Looked very clean, also with snow on it.

andre1969 · February 15

Speak of the devil...running errands this morning, I saw one of those '04-07 generation Malibus. A silver one, parked outside a quick lube place. Looked like it was in good shape.

fintail · February 15

I've always thought the Maxx was a neat concept, kind of European. The front end of that era Malibu has always bugged me a little, like the headlights are too high on the front fascia, somehow reminds me of a fish.

Michaell · February 15

Didn’t the Maxx have a rear seat that moved back and forth?

roadburner · February 15

There's a blue AH Sprite parked in a driveway on the route to my closest Shell station.

tjc78 · February 18

I wager this car is a one of one equipped the way it is and color.

https://www.facebook.com/share/1B2B9f3XTL/?mibextid=wwXIfr

stickguy · February 18

I like that one more than the more common black Grand National.

explorerx4 · February 18

Sticker says it has an Astro Roof but no definitive picture of it.

explorerx4 · February 19

Andre1969 is going to enjoy this and Uplanderguy is going to be sad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTg1PXnj3Mk

andre1969 · February 22

That was a nice little blast from the past. I used to watch "Hunter" when I was a kid. IIRC, when it first came out, it was on NBC Friday nights at 9 pm, up against "Dallas". That probably would have killed it promptly, but then they put "V: The Series" up against "Dallas" (ensuring "V's" death), and then put Hunter on Saturday nights.

For that car chase, at least they were respectful enough not to totally destroy that '61 Cadillac. But, it looks like it was just an old car at the time, so I wonder if, in real life, it ultimately met a sad fate? It'd be kinda cool if it was still around.

Wow, it's hard to believe Hunter is now 40+ years old!

stickguy · February 22

A caddy XLR yesterday got on the highway in front of me. A burgundy pearl color that was really sharp.

thebean · February 22

I assume @uplanderguy is affected by the logon snafu. I sure miss him and his posts here and on the Studebaker board. 🙁

I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

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