Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

xwesx

kyfdx said:

xwesx said:

kyfdx said:

xwesx said:

Is that "money factor" based on a monthly rate, then? So, the APR is essentially 7.21%?

.00601 MF approx = 14.42% APR

Er, what?! It's hard to say what the basis is if that is true. I mean, I see how to get there for a 24-month lease, but 14.42% over 24 months is still 7.21% over 12.

You’re doing the math wrong.. 🤷‍♂️

Okay, so it is just a really weird calculation and wouldn't matter if this was a 24-month lease or some other term. It is just MF * 24 = APR. Yikes. That's just horrific.

oldfarmer50

xwesx said:

Is that "money factor" based on a monthly rate, then? So, the APR is essentially 7.21%?

I got 14.42% as well but I don’t really know how they calculate things.

Michaell

OK, I mocked up a sample lease payment for our Escalade. I assumed a 10% discount from MSRP.

Hopefully, this explains how a lease payment is calculated.

Sandman6472

Having issues getting the key out of the ignition again like it did when the tranny cable snapped last year. Doesn't happen all the time but enough to become annoying. It says that the vehicle is not in "P" and top make sure it is. So, I have to restart the vehicle, put into "D" and then back into "P" before it'll work properly and the key will come out. Like I said, it doesn't happen all the time, but just enough to be annoying. It's these little things that have me want to see the 2025 GTI show up on dealer lots so I can at least go test drive one. I did tell the other half that if I do end up buying, it'll probably be that because it's the same size as what I have now and the easiest thing to do. She agreed and said just go ahead and do it when they start showing up.

suydam

Went used-car shopping with daughter and son-in-law. Tried out a bare bones 2020 Toyota Sienna priced stupidly high and a very nicely equipped 2021 Buick Enclave priced quite fairly. Drove all over the lot looking for a 2021 Santa Fe that the sales guy never did find. They don’t know exactly what they want, so it was a start at least. It will be a second car for them. I think they want to look at a Santa Fe when one can be found and also a Honda Pilot. Anyone have any thoughts on these or anything else as choices for a second family vehicle? They already have a Toyota RAV4 Prime, just had their second baby, so they want at least a midsize vehicle.

xwesx

Yeah, I don't know what it is about Siennas, but apparently they are rare flesh for sellers to be pricing them like they are.

stickguy

Ouch

Michaell

suydam said:

Went used-car shopping with daughter and son-in-law. Tried out a bare bones 2020 Toyota Sienna priced stupidly high and a very nicely equipped 2021 Buick Enclave priced quite fairly. Drove all over the lot looking for a 2021 Santa Fe that the sales guy never did find. They don’t know exactly what they want, so it was a start at least. It will be a second car for them. I think they want to look at a Santa Fe when one can be found and also a Honda Pilot. Anyone have any thoughts on these or anything else as choices for a second family vehicle? They already have a Toyota RAV4 Prime, just had their second baby, so they want at least a midsize vehicle.

My son and his wife have been half-heartedly looking for a new vehicle for their family - two kids, ages 3 and 12. Currently have two Hyundais - an Elantra GT and an Accent. He saw a Mitsubishi Outlander that appealed to him.

I know it's not the most popular vehicle out there, but I imagine they are priced less than the bigger brands.

qbrozen

@xwesx said:
Okay, so it is just a really weird calculation and wouldn't matter if this was a 24-month lease or some other term. It is just MF * 24 = APR. Yikes. That's just horrific.

It has nothing to do with the term. This just so happens to be a 24-mo program, but the calculation remains the same for 36. MF x 2400 = APR. Why 2400? I have no idea. They could have come up with any other number combination. It is just what some schmoe somewhere in time chose and it stuck.

stickguy

Seems more logical to double the MF and times by 1200. Same end result but seems more like an annual amount!

kyfdx

Multiply times 12 to get an annual rate (because the money factor is for a monthly rate)
Multiply times 100 to get a percentage as a whole number (as a percentage is actually a fraction of the principal)
Multiply X 2 (because MF is applied to CAP cost + residual, when the amount "financed" is an average of those two numbers).

12
X 100
X 2
= 2400

It's easier to understand if you work it the other way. Converting an APR into a MF by dividing. Then the MF doesn't seem so random.

suydam

Or, for the math-impaired like me, use an online calculator.

nyccarguy

xwesx said:

Yeah, I don't know what it is about Siennas, but apparently they are rare flesh for sellers to be pricing them like they are.

If you think about used Siennas and the high prices, it is supply, demand, perception of long term reliability. SUVs have been the dominant choice of transportation for families over the past how many years? I know personally I've bought three since 2011. Not very many minvans are made anymore. You are down to Chrysler, Honda, & Toyota. Chrysler will always be the economy choice for used buyers. Then you are down to Honda & Toyota. Honda's transmission problems , especially with Minivans have severely tarnished their reputation for durability. You are left with Toyota. People tend to hold on to them and there isn't much supply on the used market as the others. Dealers know that people will pay a premium for Toyotas and especially Siennas.

kyfdx

Price drop of $500 on the X3 we traded

https://www.tomgrayautosales.com/vdp/21966079/Used-2017-BMW-X3-xDrive28i-Sports-Activity-Vehicle-for-sale-in-Louisville-KY-40204

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

xwesx said:

Yeah, I don't know what it is about Siennas, but apparently they are rare flesh for sellers to be pricing them like they are.

If you think about used Siennas and the high prices, it is supply, demand, perception of long term reliability. SUVs have been the dominant choice of transportation for families over the past how many years? I know personally I've bought three since 2011. Not very many minvans are made anymore. You are down to Chrysler, Honda, & Toyota. Chrysler will always be the economy choice for used buyers. Then you are down to Honda & Toyota. Honda's transmission problems , especially with Minivans have severely tarnished their reputation for durability. You are left with Toyota. People tend to hold on to them and there isn't much supply on the used market as the others. Dealers know that people will pay a premium for Toyotas and especially Siennas.

Kia Carnival is also available.

Michaell

Small rant coming ....

What is it with all the "Line" trims, these days?

R-Line - VW
S-Line - Audi
X-Line - Kia
N-Line - Hyundai

Doesn't seem like there is an original idea out there, anymore.

I took the Subaru into my independent shop this morning - the power steering belt is making an awful racket when I start the car first thing in the morning. Probably needs to be replaced.

explorerx4

You can add:
ST Line - Ford

Michaell

explorerx4 said:

You can add:
ST Line - Ford

Oops, you're right - missed that one.

laurasdada

Don't forget the Walk the Line - Johnny Cash

tjc78

@Michaell said:
OK, I mocked up a sample lease payment for our Escalade. I assumed a 10% discount from MSRP.

Hopefully, this explains how a lease payment is calculated.

Well… what we learned here is leasing an Escalade is not a smart thing!

If you put taxes down and financed 90K for 5 years @6% your payment would be nearly $300 cheaper.

corvette

kyfdx said:

Price drop of $500 on the X3 we traded

It's interesting that they wholesaled it. I'm guessing it was below the price point they want on their used lot, otherwise, a clean, well maintained used BMW with no stories would be something you'd think they'd keep.

kyfdx

corvette said:

kyfdx said:

Price drop of $500 on the X3 we traded

It's interesting that they wholesaled it. I'm guessing it was below the price point they want on their used lot, otherwise, a clean, well maintained used BMW with no stories would be something you'd think they'd keep.

Yeah... I'm surprised they didn't put it on the Audi lot, next door.

But, it does show it needs service in 1200 miles. Oil change, cabin filters, spark plugs, brakes (!). Maybe it wasn't worth it to them.

Just noticed that the used car dealer has a link to the actual window sticker information (when new)

Michaell

tjc78 said:

@Michaell said:

OK, I mocked up a sample lease payment for our Escalade. I assumed a 10% discount from MSRP.

Hopefully, this explains how a lease payment is calculated.

Well… what we learned here is leasing an Escalade is not a smart thing!

If you put taxes down and financed 90K for 5 years @6% your payment would be nearly $300 cheaper.

No, leasing a 2025 Escalade is not a smart thing to do.

Lots of 2025 models have very high money factors to encourage customers to find a leftover 2024 model and lease that instead.

anonymousposts2025

We have an empty space in the garage.. what’s everyone driving these days?

We’ve been all over the place looking at small and sporty (Civic SI, Lexus IS) or another EV ( Prologue).

suydam

Daughter and son-in-law are also looking at the Prologue.

stickguy

I would like to drive one of those. Or the Acura version. Someday.

anonymousposts2025

We just sold our Model Y. Great but redundant with our RAV4 Hybrid and we figured it’s a good time to get a manual before they are obsolete. Not many manual options ..

Michaell

@anonymousposts2025 said:
We just sold our Model Y. Great but redundant with our RAV4 Hybrid and we figured it’s a good time to get a manual before they are obsolete. Not many manual options ..

GLI?

xwesx

anonymousposts2025 said:

We just sold our Model Y. Great but redundant with our RAV4 Hybrid and we figured it’s a good time to get a manual before they are obsolete. Not many manual options ..

Yep, it's a sad time for us drivers of manuals.

stickguy

One reason I want to get one again. Before there aren’t any more or my body falls apart to much to use one!

What I really need is a sporty manual pickup. That would solve my problems! Since the wife doesn’t want to drive the maverick and I don’t want 3 cars now.

anonymousposts2025

That’s our reasoning for buying a manual now. We are getting older. I was a baby of 20 when I started this forum. We are in our 40’s and 50’s now. Time flies.

oldfarmer50

suydam said:

Went used-car shopping with daughter and son-in-law. Tried out a bare bones 2020 Toyota Sienna priced stupidly high and a very nicely equipped 2021 Buick Enclave priced quite fairly. Drove all over the lot looking for a 2021 Santa Fe that the sales guy never did find. They don’t know exactly what they want, so it was a start at least. It will be a second car for them. I think they want to look at a Santa Fe when one can be found and also a Honda Pilot. Anyone have any thoughts on these or anything else as choices for a second family vehicle? They already have a Toyota RAV4 Prime, just had their second baby, so they want at least a midsize vehicle.

Nothing wrong with the Sienna but I don’t see much difference between it and a Pacifica. The Buick Enclave might be the bargain compared the Asian selections.

Sandman6472

Sprayed WD-40 on the key and put it in & out of the starter hole numerous times and it didn't stick once. Even left the key in the starter for a few hours so the WD-40 could do it's trick. Had no liquid grafite so figured the WD-40 would do. Hopefully that'll do the trick going forward as I don't want a major problem going forward.

Did a duck duck go search earlier about when the 2025 GTI's are going to hit the market and couldn't find any info anywhere. Looked at all our local dealers and only saw 2024's being offered which is something I do not want. Read the write-ups on the new 2025 model and things were mostly positive especially with the improved infotainment system and new alloy designs, somethings which are important to me. Would hope that by March or April, we'll see some at the dealerships. Was hoping to get something done the lat week of 2024 but don't think that'll be happening. And I'm also not going to rush into something unless it's what I really want. But...I am ready to make a move!

anonymousposts2025

@oldfarmer50 said:
Nothing wrong with the Sienna but I don’t see much difference between it and a Pacifica. The Buick Enclave might be the bargain compared the Asian selections.

My sister-in-law had a Pacifica as a company car, it needed a few new transmissions while she had it. I would stay far away.

stickguy

I rented one up here and drove down to Newark airport (cheaper and easier than trying to fly out of Albany). 5 people and all the luggage in perfect comfort. Of course, I was not concerned about longevity of the tranny or the Pentastar coolant pipe issues.

anonymousposts2025

We picked up a 2014 Odyssey late last year. We had a 2020 Sienna XLE but sold it because we thought one was leaving the nest. Our 19 year old appears to be comfortable living here so that was a mistake. We don’t like new Siennas or Odysseys and didn’t want to sell the Tesla or RAV4 at that time. It has 140k, but works for our needs.

roadburner

My son was looking at X3s, but I found a CPO 2021 GLC 300 at my M-B dealer. My son really likes it, even though it's a bit over his planned purchase price (and it's an "AMG Line," BTW). It's heavily optioned- Distronic Plus, Upgraded LCD headlamps, Burmester, HUD, surround view- heck, I'd even be tempted if I needed/wanted another SUV. I'm going to check it out for him this weekend.

explorerx4

This guy usually has pretty good info but take this with a grain of salt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDk9wSGThwE

laurasdada

roadburner said:

My son was looking at X3s, but I found a CPO 2021 GLC 300 at my M-B dealer. My son really likes it, even though it's a bit over his planned purchase price (and it's an "AMG Line," BTW). It's heavily optioned- Distronic Plus, Upgraded LCD headlamps, Burmester, HUD, surround view- heck, I'd even be tempted if I needed/wanted another SUV. I'm going to check it out for him this weekend.

After driving the GLC, X3 and Q5, I surprised myself by preferring the Benz (thought It would have been the X3). I thought it was the most balanced of the three, fun with luxury.
The better 7/8 wanted the X3. So, there you go.

28firefighter

@roadburner said:
My son was looking at X3s, but I found a CPO 2021 GLC 300 at my M-B dealer. My son really likes it, even though it's a bit over his planned purchase price (and it's an "AMG Line," BTW). It's heavily optioned- Distronic Plus, Upgraded LCD headlamps, Burmester, HUD, surround view- heck, I'd even be tempted if I needed/wanted another SUV. I'm going to check it out for him this weekend.

If past you could see you now. Your MB Dealer.

Sandman6472

Had to go to Walgreens yesterday to pick up prescriptions and there was a long line to get into the parking lot. Looked just wide enough, so I went for it. At the end, I heard some scraping and was thinking I either hurt the tires or the alloys but guess there was just enough room, and nothing happened. Man, was I happy but taught me a lesson...never be in a hurry going forward as bad things could happen!

nyccarguy

@anonymousposts2025 said:
We picked up a 2014 Odyssey late last year. We had a 2020 Sienna XLE but sold it because we thought one was leaving the nest. Our 19 year old appears to be comfortable living here so that was a mistake. We don’t like new Siennas or Odysseys and didn’t want to sell the Tesla or RAV4 at that time. It has 140k, but works for our needs.

Just curious, how is the odyssey? Have you had to do any major maintenance items? You had it checked out before you bought it? How many miles were on your Sienna? Which do you prefer?

venture

Sandman6472 said:

Had to go to Walgreens yesterday to pick up prescriptions and there was a long line to get into the parking lot. Looked just wide enough, so I went for it. At the end, I heard some scraping and was thinking I either hurt the tires or the alloys but guess there was just enough room, and nothing happened. Man, was I happy but taught me a lesson...never be in a hurry going forward as bad things could happen!

Going backward too!

qbrozen

@kyfdx said:
Multiply times 12 to get an annual rate (because the money factor is for a monthly rate)
Multiply times 100 to get a percentage as a whole number (as a percentage is actually a fraction of the principal)
Multiply X 2 (because MF is applied to CAP cost + residual, when the amount "financed" is an average of those two numbers).

12
X 100
X 2
= 2400

It's easier to understand if you work it the other way. Converting an APR into a MF by dividing. Then the MF doesn't seem so random.

OR we start our own leasing company and use a crazy new thing called “borrowing surprise.” We’ll start with a flat 8% interest. Divide it by pi, add the square root of beta (which varies monthly according to GDP), sprinkle it with pixie dust, and multiply by the sum of 3 darts the customer throws at our happy Funtime dartboard. With the final number in hand, Mr Bobo, our chimp, will record the customer’s payment. This is all just fun and show for the customer, of course, because we’ll simply be using 12% in the background, but don’t tell them because it is a secret!

kyfdx

It may seem that way, but it's a straightforward calculation.

They don't determine the money factor, then calculate what APR that might be.
They determine the APR (just like a loan), then convert it to a money factor for ease in calculation.

As I mentioned, it's easy to understand if you do the reverse calculation.

And... not a secret!

stickguy

The issue is more that dealers don’t state the apr which buyers understand (well, most of them!). And that I bet is intentional.

kyfdx

stickguy said:

The issue is more that dealers don’t state the apr which buyers understand (well, most of them!). And that I bet is intentional.

Except, technically, it isn't an APR. Most dealers don't advertise the APR, either, as they want to mark it up without you knowing.

That's more of a dealer issue than a math problem

tjc78

I understand the math that goes into it … but using a MF does cloud the calculation for 95% of customers.

If I said I leased my car at a 7% interest rate most can relate that. OTOH if I say the MF was .0029 they would look at me sideways.

Also the MF can only go up what seems like a little bit and it has a major impact.

.0035 doesn’t seem like an appreciable difference from .0029 but it’s 8.4% vs 7.

Michaell

tjc78 said:

I understand the math that goes into it … but using a MF does cloud the calculation for 95% of customers.

If I said I leased my car at a 7% interest rate most can relate that. OTOH if I say the MF was .0029 they would look at me sideways.

Also the MF can only go up what seems like a little bit and it has a major impact.

.0035 doesn’t seem like an appreciable difference from .0029 but it’s 8.4% vs 7.

Back in the days when MF were really low, we would have members point out that one MF was three times larger than another (.00005 vs. .00015, for example). We pointed out that the relative difference in payment was pretty small.

kyfdx

One more semi-interesting thing about our trade-in.

Trade on 15th (Friday)
Carfax shows sold at auction on 18th
Listed by used car dealer on 20th