The Stock Market and Investing

cdnpinhead

in my mind at least, is where can one go to get a better deal? Most people stay where they are and tolerate whatever happens. The key people won't, which is why people and industries are leaving California by the thousands. That works from one state to another, but what about those of us who are willing and able to pull up stakes and go to a different county?

Ayn Rand aside (let's all go to an imaginary place and start over), what country offers real incentives to people who are willing to take risks and/or disincentives to those who think work really cuts into their day to an unacceptable degree?

The U.S. used to be that place. Where do people go now, given what's going on here? Brits have been moving elsewhere for decades, as have others who would otherwise deal with confiscatory tax rates.

The fact remains that those who contribute the most eventually get sick of paying for people who feed at the government trough; historically they've moved on or simply quit, to live on the dole themselves.

This should be interesting.

gagrice

The U.S. used to be that place. Where do people go now, given what's going on here?

That has been the question people have asked for at least 5000 years of recorded history. Where is the promised land? Many places offer a welcome retreat from high taxes if you have a decent retirement. If you want to work and try to survive the options get very thin. Right now in the USA, I can count on one hand the places that offer decent wages and good living conditions. I talked to a friend this morning that has put his house on the market. He knows he will lose a lot of money. Then just hit several areas around the country starting in the state of Nevada. He hopes to get away from tax and spend state governments. He has a Navy and Civil Service retirement and with Tri-Care he can get medical any place in the USA. He fell in love with San Diego while in the Navy. His kids are working in TX. So nothing but the marginally nice weather to keep him here. I think he is representative of 100s of thousands of Americans that are retired or on disability. CA is now for the Very Rich, High paid Public Employees and those on welfare. The middle class is screwed in CA.

cdnpinhead

High paid Public Employees

You're being redundant, my friend.

I guess we all just get to hide and watch. Moving from the blue states to NV or TX works for awhile, but I need a whole 'nother country to look at.

Sadly, the last best hope in the world was here, and it's about to go down the chute. Who knows, maybe the adventurous will end up in Russia or the mideast -- depends on the taxes, among other things. The key is not supporting people who have better things to do than work.

fintail

There still are no other countries who offer stability along with opportunity like the US does, for the average person not born into a trust fund or a free ride aided by parental largesse, etc. It sure as hell isn't going to be unstable Russia or wacko fundamentalist Middle East - not in the next century anyway.

People who make theirs aided by an expensive existing system, then run away when the maintenance is due, are simple traitors, IMNSHO.

All of the tax debate is interesting. What is the ideal tax number for the top few? Why not mirror the numbers when there was prosperity? Guess the globalization pandora's box ruined that one. Trickle down obviously hasn't worked, it just produces short and damaging bubbles. Lots of whine about entitlement out there ....the top few seems to feel entitled to something as well - defacto guaranteed ROIs. And still no concrete plans to cut back the biggest trough feeders - our insane military-industrial complex.

fintail

"He has a Navy and Civil Service retirement"

Amusing that someone with those lottery winnings would complain about tax and spend waste. I wonder how much of his career was funded by that ideal, how necessary his positions really were. Lots of hypocrisy out there.

There's a lot of the US outside of coastal CA and metro NYC.

gagrice

Amusing that someone with those lottery winnings would complain about tax and spend waste.

I can tell you 20 year military retirement is barely beer money. He worked on base in some civil service job. Wait till you get to pay $500 or more a month in taxes to live in your own home. Utilities at $700 plus due to state regulations. 10% state income tax and 9.75% sales tax. All before you get hit up by the Feds.

I just learned something researching tax free municipal bonds. The interest is NOT tax free if you are a victim of AMT as we are. It would be nice to live in a state that does not waste money as CA does in more ways than anyone can imagine. Living in WA where you don't pay income tax and your sales tax is less, it is easy to cast stones at those that are fed up with Liberal politicians always in your wallet.

gagrice

Why not mirror the numbers when there was prosperity? Guess the globalization pandora's box ruined that one.

Generally you are more aware of what is and what is not a myth. The 90% tax rate is a case for you to study a bit closer.

The 90% Tax Rate Myth

There is a "myth" that the economy of the United States chugged along at least in part due to higher taxes on the wealthy in the past. First, this myth, like so many about creating prosperity, ignores that U.S. growth came after two world wars wiped out most of our competitors. Second, the implication is that "the rich" were actually paying 90 percent taxes at some point in history. That's never been the case.

So, let's get more complicated. When there was a 94% top rate in 1944-45, there were so many deductions and exclusions that the taxable income was not comparable to someone's entire income. First, the top rate started at $200,000, which today is equal to $2,413,059.90 — so the maximum EMTR would apply only to incomes of $2.5 million. But, that's still taxable income, not earned income.

In 1944, you could deduct business meals, all business travel, all forms of interest payments, and much more. You could even deduct spousal travel expenses on a business trip! (Why travel alone?) Companies could also "loan" or "provide" almost anything to an employee, from an apartment to standard benefits. It was possible to shelter tens of thousands of dollars from taxable income. Three-martini lunches and expense accounts were important realities, skewing tax calculations.

As a result of deductions and exclusions, even the theoretical maximum Real Rate of taxation at 60% in 1944 overstates taxation dramatically. The reality? On earned income, the richest U.S. taxpayers paid close to 40 percent of their earned incomes in taxes in 1944. We simply didn't count much of the compensation as taxable income.

http://almostclassical.blogspot.se/2011/03/90-tax-rate-myth.html

kyfdx

The U.S. used to be that place. Where do people go now, given what's going on here?

At the risk of wearing out references to Warren Buffett... (from the same interview with Charlie Rose in BusinessWeek)

In international terms, where do you see the best economic prospects?

Europe is still drifting downward to some degree. And Asia’s coming off the best rate of growth, but they’re coming down somewhat. The U.S., actually, is strongest relative to where it was six months ago or nine months ago. Housing is coming back big-time. But five years from now, 10 years from now, the world everywhere will be doing better.


Why?

Just because capitalism and market systems work. It’s been working, you know, since 1776 here. And it wasn’t because we had stimulus programs in 1794. Our system unleashes people’s potential. And we’ve got 312 million people that want to do better tomorrow than today. Over time, that works. This country goes forward, and it’ll continue to go forward. The luckiest person in history on a probability basis is the baby being born in the United States today.

fintail

And what is the return on those retirement contributions compared to what the average private sector worker could earn on the same funding? $700 a month for utilities? In reality, or speculation? $500/month for property taxes? Needs to seek a senior reduction (my grandmother pays far below the normal rate), or sell the place that those of a similar age and position couldn't dream of buying today.

Sales tax is less in WA? It's over 9% in the county where I live, and developed western WA is one of the bluest of blue areas. It's a tax and spend bottomless pit, yet has somehow survived better than many regions. Just as the troubled imperfect USA still looks more appealing for the average working person than most of the rest of the world.

fintail

Interesting article. No surprise there were more loopholes then. But still, it would be interesting to see what the top few actually *paid* during prosperous (not necessarily wartime) years vs today, or times during the last 30 years. Reality over rates. Still doesn't look like those tax reductions have really produced anything positive for the economy. Examining how the wealth gap has widened, it appears those reductions have had a different impact.

gagrice

Just as the troubled imperfect USA still looks more appealing for the average working person than most of the rest of the world.

I agree with that for sure. Unless you work for a US company in some foreign hell hole.

On utilities. We have the highest in the USA at a top tier 34 cents per KWH. If you want to stay cool in the summer and use your AC you can expect $400 per month electric bills. We do not turn ours on until the inside tops 80 degrees. Our home is also very well insulated. The only neighbor that still has a lawn spends $350 per month keeping it green. And it is not that big of a lawn. Most everyone lets their lawn go to natural weeds. If we have a cold month my propane will cost me about $500. We don't turn on the heat until the house hits 64 degrees. If you are so unfortunate enough to be on city sewer, that is based on your water bill. Even in small homes it is not unusual for people to have $300 per month water and sewer bills. The cost is all predicated on our high electric rates. Forced on us by our Liberal pinko government. They mandate alternative energy. They fine the utility if you don't use a certain amount. Then the State and Feds block your alternative wind and solar projects in the name of environmental impact. Always the home owner gets the shaft.

It was not that long ago the average home in San Diego was $624k. That equals about $6200 per year for taxes. The closest incorporated city to us has 9.75% sales tax. State takes 7.25% which goes up Jan 1st. Income tax rate goes up also.

cdnpinhead

. . .we’ve got 312 million people that want to do better tomorrow than today.

That may be true (though I'm convinced that a significant number of people are quite willing to just manage & have zero ambition), but the real question is how many of them are willing to take the responsibility for creating that better tomorrow themselves, as opposed to expecting someone else to do it for them.

houdini1

Why not mirror the numbers when there was prosperity?

Indeed, why not? I assume you are talking about tax rates and spending rates, yes?

ljflx

You know when you think about it the tax increase is senseless as it not only threatens the economy but it amounts to nothing but hill of beans accounting vs the spending we're doing. You've got a deficit that will probably average $13 trillion over the next 10 years (maybe, maybe also more like $16 trillion+) and you have $1.6 trillion in Obama's desired tax increases. So if you do the math that can't even pay the tip on Obama's spending spree. Since the Dems want to spend us into oblivion and feel that there will always be someone to lend us whatever trillions we need at very low rates why even waste our time trying to pay for any of it ourselves. All this is about is what Obama said before his first election - "we're going to spread it around". And oh yes - procuring votes so we can keep up the wrecklessness. That's all this is about AFAIC. There's no responsibility here. Just say this was your mandate and run to the MSM to keep up the nonsense.

ljflx

And still no concrete plans to cut back the biggest trough feeders - our insane military-industrial complex.

That's the only manufacturing we have left. Do you know how many middle income jobs will be lost to that.

imidazol97

Here's a video from the NYSE floor, Rick Santelli:

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000132964

Watch the part after 3:20, it's the most informative about the diversion being used to distract the American people from the real problem in our future: entitlements. Note the hypocrisy pointed out about savings on paying unemployment are tiny from the admin's side, but when it's similar amounts in income from those awful 2%ers, that same amount is very important. Which is it?

Will the grown ups get to do something about entitlements or are we going to wait until the stock market crash and high inflation because no one will buy our debt?

houdini1

While it is true that some munis are subject to the AMT...most of them are not. If this is a concern make sure before you buy. Of course, if the bonds go up in value, the increase is considered a capital gain and is taxed.

houdini1

Obama wants a proposal from the Repubs. because if they come back with changes to SS and Medicare, they will then own it, not him.

I think the Repubs actually have Obama over a barrel here. Going over the cliff is a much better deal, spending wise, than the crazy "compromise" that Obama has on the table.

How do you negotiate with someone who comes back with a worse deal than the deal already on the table? I say wait him out until he actually puts forth a workable compromise. If we go over the cliff, Obama owns it.

fintail

Yes. Cold war foreign policy (includes military) expenses in this brave new world aren't workable. Don't just reform domestic spending, but cut the external feeders off the taxpayer teat.

Maybe it is time for some shared sacrifice. As it is now, the only "class warfare" has been a downward movement just like the imagined fairytale economic policy.

fintail

No, tell me, how many, compared to the overall employment picture?

War based economies based on perpetual deficit spending and contrived battles never survive.

fintail

re: offshore employees...that's just free trade, right? Lack of regulation is good, right? We should emulate Chindia and environs, right? Some of the more Ayn Randian minds out there would actually agree.

Live in a hot dry place, deal with higher utilities. Isn't that how it always works? Want a lawn in what is effectively a desert? Pay up. I live in a colder place than you, and I might use the heat when it snows - seldom otherwise. But, I don't need a big house with acres of space I don't use. I live within my means. I live in a very high cost of living area, my w/s/g is usually no more than $60, power around $40 - the crony capitalist cable monopoly costs me more, and that's only because I am too lazy/too much of a luddite to just use online media. Home owner is kind of a funny thing anyway - don't pay taxes or maintain the place for awhile, and see who owns what. Don't seniors get a property tax break? Maybe just sell, move to a lower cost area (plenty with decent weather), and reap the rewards of a housing market that will never be seen again. Enjoy those proceeds, don't worry about the kids. Some people are forced to move to maintain employment, others might have to for cost of living.

ljflx

That's my whole point that he does not have a clue on how to negotiate. I'd let it go over the cliff if I'm the Reps.

houdini1

On one of the Sunday news talk shows, the guy that was supposed to be representing the Reps said that "We know that if we go over the cliff, the Reps will be blamed".

About the time my heart rate got back to normal...he said it again !! Where do these guys come from?

ljflx

Except for my interest in Apple I'm completely out of the market as of tomorrow. I took half out on Thursday for end of business Friday and the rest out today effective tomorrow. When a rebounding Apple can't hold a $9 gain you know you're in trouble. Politics are just too much right now and even if Charlie is right about a deal there's too much skirmishing coming up. But again - I see nothing but a cliff, which again is what I'd do if I'm the reps, or a last minute bad deal. Even some dems made statements that Obama should put cuts back on the table. If the people are stupid enough to blame a body of congress instead of the president for not leading and negotiating properly than what does it matter. Next election is 4 years out. Better to take blame now.

gagrice

Don't seniors get a property tax break?

Not in CA. The Homeowners exemption on a $600,000 home is $7000. Why do they even bother?

I agree on the lawn. Luckily I am not in a subdivision with covenants that mandate keeping your lawn green year round. Most have put in fake grass to get around the mandate. Your utilities are cheap in Washington. Many liberals are headed your direction to change all that. They will be mandating 20% alternative energy, banning any coal generation and taxing the heck out of your utility companies. All of which trickles down to the consumers. I also live very frugal well below my means. Two solar companies have told us they could not save us any money on our electricity. We just don't use enough to justify a $25,000 solar system.

anthonyp

It`s easy to say the things you do, but if a person is retired and has family and friends it is difficult to move....I agree if someone owns a `mansion` they should consider downsizing, but that is expensive also...Alot of fees, and in some cases taxes...plus it really is upsetting....

I admire your frugality, but if I wanted acres of surrounding land, I would expect to pay for it.....In some cases if there is enough land, the and can be snipped off and a conservation easement given...The tax benefit is that the land now can`t be subdivided into additional lots, and then that can be deducted from taxes, and also used to lower the assessment...Of course there are many fees involved, and that is what the `system` wants you to do...It increases economic prosperity....

I think prosperity is just around the corner and about to explode out..Optimistic..I am Tony

fintail

But when the family is gone, sell the big place. If friends are a concern, downsize and stay in the area. If one lives in an area where rents are grossly lower than mortgages (like in my area), maybe not buy at all. Best financial decision I ever made was not jumping into the market when my coworkers were jumping on me to do it back in 06. So many of them are way underwater still.

I am relatively optimistic too. Not so much for a 2004 style mirage boom or 1980s style nonsense, but maybe for painfully slow gradual upward momentum that is sustainable. That's the key. I like to think that each of these crashes results in some lessons learned. All of the political babble is just distraction. This place still remains the relative beacon, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

fintail

Reforms are needed, then. I think my grandmother pays like a third the normal rate. But she's not one of those oldsters still raking in 10K/month from mysterious sources.

Utilities aren't so cheap rather than my place is small. It's 65.7 degrees in this room right now, and I am fine. This is a liberal greenie eco weenie area, if I owned a poorly built mcmansion palace, I would be paying through the nose...but I am not.

ljflx

White House rejected Reps proposal yesterday. Why? - It had cuts that would effect SS and Medicare not by actually cutting them but delaying them. We are going nowhere fast. WH is setting this all up as a blame tactic rather than truly negotiating. It may backfire badly. The campaign is done - it's time to finally start governing responsibly. IMO - it will look bad for Obama to miss a settlement on such a big item so soon after he is president. Call it whatever you want and get the media to paint it however you want but in the end he's the leader and it will show a big lack of leadership. On top of that the 2% SS payroll tax kicks back in plus an income tax increase so the middle class gets hurt. Further, the people in NJ, Staten Island and Long Island are beginning to see how used they were by Obama in Sandy's aftermath. Help is very slow and townhall meetings are getting ugly. Of course the NY Times is not covering any of this. You have to find out about it thru local media outlets.

imidazol97

> It may backfire badly.

Not with the MSM that most watch having his back on everything.

>You have to find out about it thru local media outlets.

Do you have any links--I would be interested in reading their coverage. I'm surprised there's not more in the true media about the people's dissatisfaction, Fox, Townhall, Breitbart, etc.

When's the time to move out of funds as this all blows up? Or will it?

ljflx

Here's one. Local TV coverage and other stories I've read provide a lot of others. Basically people are very frustrated with the red tape and feel that Obama came to NJ (bypassed NY) more to put Christie in a compromising situation rather than to really help. Both NY and NJ are democratic voting states because of the clusterred big cities to NY (if you made Newark, Jersey City and other areas which are very close to NYC in NY than NJ would be republican) so Obama wasn't looking for votes here, he was looking for a national effect. Couldn't get it in NY because they have a democrat governor in Cuomo. But he'll run against Hillary, and probably get it for the nect democrat president nominee.

http://www.app.com/viewart/20121204/NJBIZ/312040069/NJ-businesses-struck-by-Sand- - y-frustrated-waiting-FEMA-SBA-help?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

cyclone4

Len - I agree that this is disturbing. The government should be speeding up the process for recovery of the Jersey shore, Staten Island, NY, etc. Usually, there are two sides to every story and I would like to hear FEMA's and SBA's side just to make a fair judgement.

houdini1

The refusal of the Reps. to raise tax rates is really the only thing holding the party together (such as it is). If they cave on this they are history and they know it. Obama knows it too. Thus the stalemate.

ljflx

That's why I pulled all my investments. I see little to no hope of saving this from going over the cliff. One way or another we are imperilling the economy and the only way Wall street rallies significantly in the near term is the Romney approach. But that's a defeat of Obama. Both parties have set this up as do or die and no one can win a situation like that. I don't think people of the country realize what's happening here.

ljflx

There are people displaced over 100 miles from their homes. Some LI residents are in hotels in Albany. Obama promised the Jersey shore that he would push for FEMA to push applications thru with minimal red tape when he was here. The result is 22 approvals out of 32,000 applications. His whole visit to the Jersey shore was a sham. The same thing is going on in NY but he never went there or spoke aloud to to its people. As I noted there was nothing to gain in NY politically. Things like this and the degrading of Romney campaign he ran make me realize that his image to voters is very very far removed from the reality of what he is. He talks about tax increases as if its a lifeline when in reality it can't even pay the tip on the deficit increase that will occur over the next 10 years. Yet it's a threat to the economy he's willing to take. As I posted yesterday - why even bother to cover so much of a small portion of the deficit spending if you believe China will keep the unlimited funding at peanuts interest rates coming, as his party and the liberals who support it do.

houdini1

For Obama, it is not about raising revenue at all. He wants to humiliate the Reps and get them to break the Norquist pledge not to raise taxes. If they do, he knows it will tear the Rep party apart.

Right now it is a stalemate. If the Reps cave, it is checkmate. If they hang tough, Obama might become reasonable at the last minute...else this will carry over into next year where the Reps will put forth legislation to reinstate the Bush tax cuts and the Dems will put forth legislation for a middle class tax cut.

fintail

Why don't the reps just cave, reinstate the gifts next year, and just get it over with? Way too many egos at play on both sides of congress, amusingly so by people who don't seem to have had real jobs at any time in their lives. IMO, the image damage was done by the "degraded" challenger's run - time to rebuild now. A checkmate by sore winners isn't going to hurt them - going off the cliff and being blamed will hurt more.

ljflx

Don't agree with that at all. As Houdini states the whole party may be at risk here. If it splinters it's gone forever. They gain nothing by caving. If they eventually die because of media blaming them wrongly then how do the dems fault anyone but themselves in the future. There's nothing more dangerous in negotiations than negotiating with someone who has nothing to lose. Of course if the dems have no one to blame and a recession hits with a deficit going thru the roof then an even more conservative party will develop and may be looked toward as the party to rescue America from becoming citibank. IMO - Obama will cave if the reps play hardball. I can't even begin to tell you how often I walked and then got that phone call resurrecting the deal I was willing to do or something close to it.

anthonyp

As you come to Myrtle Beach , this could be a good time to make your `move` on Pauley`s......A number of people here in he Chas area have invested in front beach or the equivalent as a hedge not only against the possibility of inflation but also to have a `hard` asset....They all look for rentable properties with a record of rentals..

You know the rules , and depreciation and write offs on a business property are probably not going to be affected....Just a thought...

As you know I don`t think any of us will suffer for any period of time , due to the elasticity of our system and of us as individuals.....

I really just do not understand Apple`s market gyrations ....Just seems so counter intuitive.

I was in the aapl store yesterday exchanging the ipad2 due to an antenna problem...I got another new 4 for a gift, and thought about getting six or seven mini iPads...As they don`t have the retina screen I decided not to, but it was going to vastly simplify my Christmas shopping.....:) It really is a great company with many more years of growth.....Tony

gagrice

If you are a student of history, you don't make deals with Democrats. They will screw you every time. Tip O'Neill got the best of Reagan on more than one of his broken promises. Obama did the same to Boehner. No real budget cuts, no deal should be the GOP motto. If they let the Bush tax cuts expire Obama looks bad. As it will cut into his candy store to the poor and raise taxes on US in the Middle. Even if they only cut 10% of entitlements it will save $100 billion a year. Get out of Afghanistan and save another $100 billion. Probably easy to cut $50 billion out of the DHS.

ljflx

Agree 100%. Plus if the middle class wakes up January 1 and finds out they are now in the same category as the rich there is nothiing the MSM can write that will appease them. Blame will fall to Obama on that one because a campaign promise fails and he's the one that announced to the world they had a deal a year ago and that deal had the auto adjustments that kick in on January 1. And if that happens the economy is really in a tailspin with even more money needed to be borrowed to support dem policies. A tax rate increase may well end up as a tax revenue decrease in a softer economy and the dems owe a lot in dole outs thanks to the presidential win. This is going to get very ugly especially if Obama and congress take their scheduled December vacations without a deal in place.

ljflx

Tony,

Lots going on in my business right now. Too complex for me to do anything other than play the markets.

We have the fiscal issues hurting Apple again. As long as it looks like taxes going up then the pressure is on the sell side as too many people have LT cap gains in this company. As the need to sell declines later in the month this stock will soar IMO. None of this has anything to do with the fundamentals of the company so don't waste your time trying to figure it out. Cash may jump unusually high this quarter because of the large amount of cash that belonged in Q3 from iPhone 5 sales developing so late in that quarter.

fintail

IMO, if the cliff is reached, the party is done and will need a wholesale purge and rebuilding. It's halfway there even if a deal is reached. Nothing to lose doesn't just define the lame duck president - his opposition has no room for any moral high ground either.

If that conservative party to "save us" as someone claimed, embraces more aimless obsolete social conservatism, and you think the libs are the road to ruin - sell your American investment vehicles of all types, as the opposition will fail yet again.

I am pretty sure you weren't negotiating national budgets with people who have endless ego with nothing to back it up :shades:

ljflx

You missed the point. It's the reps that have nothing to lose by negotiating hard.

fintail

I don't know, is making deal with fake fiscal conservatives any better than making deals with false reformers and wannabe progressives? I don't see either side actually producing anything sustainable. Spend and spend vs tax and spend. The "spend" is the problem.

Obama has a card to play - the fake fiscal conservatives being willing to sacrifice what was the middle class, to save questionable gifts given to the top few. Many won't take kindly to it.

I'll wholeheartedly embrace those 150BN in savings, even if it hurts the greatest entitlement funds eater of them all.

fintail

They have a little to lose, yet. I see them as only 70% dead after the pitiful election attempt. Being seen as a group that would sacrifice normal wage earners in order to try to save gifts given to a top few will do nothing but put another huge hole in the suit of armor. GOP needs an actual revolution in its ranks, not just populist nonsense without credibility or plans, as it has had the past severa; years.

gagrice

Ah but the middle class overwhelmingly voted for Romney. They will consider Obama the evil enemy even more than before the election. It will be seen in the 2014 election same as 2010. Obama will try to do as much damage as possible before 2014. He is a one worlder and that is his only real goal that I can see. He has screwed the non union middle class for 4 years. He has done NOTHING to help the poor and especially the poor blacks. He has less than a month, and he has a 20 day vacation in Hawaii planned.

fintail

They did? According to who? What are we defining as middle class? Lots of sources are debating and debunking the claims made by a bitter defeated strategist. Here is just one..... Oh, and another ...250K isn't it.

Everything you say could also describe the previous regime, and what would have been the results of Willard's economic miracle (had he possessed the cojones to reveal his plans). We are seeing the true problem with a two party system controlled by identical corporate interests. No matter who you choose, you lose (if you are a person who isn't a corporation too). And why the markets haven't collapsed even though this "cliff" nonsense is everywhere. In the long run, it won't matter.

gagrice

Noah is playing fast and loose with figures. Middle class would be a family income of $50k to $250k. Middle class starts at the median income which is now $50k. It was $54k before Obama and the Dems trashed our economy. I would not believe a word Madcow spews. She is a lapdog for the Democrats bought and paid for. Claiming $100k per year as rich or affluent is hyperbole. Maybe comfortable, hardly rich. You cannot afford full time tax attorney on a lousy $100k per year. In CA you are going to see a large chunk of that gone by April 15th. State takes $10k, IRS, $25k, another $6k for property taxes if you are living in a middle class average home. That is about 41% before you buy anything and pay 9% sales tax. Which on an MB stripper would be another $4 grand. Another $1000 in gas tax. It would be easy to pay 50% of that $100k in taxes.

fintail

I think the bitter strategist who wasn't able to help con the masses into being "saved" by a silver spoon with no actual substance or hard plans was also playing fast and loose with his statements. Why is 50K a cutoff? A couple making 27K apiece and having kids are on a very fine line in many places. 100K isn't rich, but for DINKs or people who live within their means (I know, un-American), it is affluent and significantly above average in all but a few areas. All but a few areas also don't have CA cost of living issues (nor do they buy new cars every year, and remember, there are endless tax deductions) - if those people think they can do better elsewhere, they can move to a garden spot like TX. Must be something keeping people in CA, right? That taxation doesn't sound unlike many other first world areas.