Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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Comments

  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    The Aztek's APEAL award is old news. The award is based on customers' responses to a survey. You would rate your car highly too if it were an Aztek.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    That's for sure. After all, there's no way anyone who bought an Aztek in the first place would ever admit that they made a mistake. And since the resale value of an Aztek is roughly comparable to that of scrap metal, they might as well pretend that they're happy with it.

    -Frank P.
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    Somebody somewhere (don't know if it was on edmunds) wrote that Aztek owners may be happy because they got a good, trouble-free vehicle that met their expectations in the first 3 months, which is essentially the APEAL criterion. They found the styling acceptable going into the purchase (otherwise they wouldn't have considered the vehicle). Sounds plausible.

    Same with the #2 Hyundai Santa Fe.

    I believe the GM personnel got loaners, so I doubt that JD Power would have included them in the survey. Then again, the Azteks could have been the Veeps holiday bonuses...
  • gsogymratgsogymrat Member Posts: 97
    If Azteks are basically good vehicles with poor resale value maybe buying a used one is the smart way to go.
  • canadatwocanadatwo Member Posts: 198
    Buying a used one would be the way to go if you plan to keep it for a long time. Vehicles with poor resale continue to depreciate quickly through out their life.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, it was a bad year for profits (losses), so it makes sense to punish the Veeps in that way! LOL!

    Aztec did poorly on IIHS crash tests, as did the minivans. Rendezvous did better.

    -juice
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Since the Rendezvous is basically a stretched Aztek, which itself is built off of the minivans.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wonder if they redesigned the front? Same engine, same basic platform, and the stretch happened on the other end (the rear, basically).

    Even the Rendezvous is nothing out of the ordinary. I liked the interior but it really needs a more refined engine to compete at that price level. The V6 is coarse and loud when you push it.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A while back someone was asking about putting bikes inside the cargo area, and we weren't sure if they would fit in a Forester.

    Well, they do. Subaru of Japan even sells an interior bike rack. Click here:

    http://accessory.subaru.co.jp/forester/catalog/index.html

    Then go to T25 (our 2.5l engine), then Luggage Room, and it's pictured right there.

    -juice
  • jfg4jfg4 Member Posts: 2
    I am pushing my husband to purchase a Forester rather than the Jeep Liberty. He likes the SF a lot, but in the end he is turned off by the styling and because he feels it is targeted more toward women. I thought he was way off base until I saw the following numbers on the % of female ownership (from the Daniel Heraud section on the Carpoint site - in each review he lists buyer demographics):

    Pathfinder 24%
    Explorer 29%
    Liberty 33%
    Xterra 37%
    Highlander 38%
    Escape 45%
    CRV 50%
    RAV4 59%
    Forester 62%

    In fact, after looking at other Heraud reviews, I couldn't find any other vehicle that skewed more toward women than the Forester. I find it hard to believe that the Forester is the most female-oriented vehicle on the road.

    Any comments on whether these numbers are reliable? I mean, is the SF really the ultimate "woman's car" on the market today? Do these numbers jibe with what people are seeing out there?
  • guyfguyf Member Posts: 456
    I would go for the Forester rather than the Liberty. Subaru will introduce the new one shortly. It may be worth to wait a couple of weeks.
  • dielectric7bbdielectric7bb Member Posts: 324
    so wait...Why do you care what others drive. Why not buy what you like the most, not what others like the most. It's all about your personal preferences and tastes. The jeep is designed for those who want to go hardcore off-road, but never will(for the most part), while the Subaru is more designed for the 99.9% of the population that will never see anything but a dirt parking lot.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Auto Pacific has some stats, and they say:

    Forester: 55% female
    CR-V: 59% female
    RAV4: 62% female

    I guess the discrepancy could be due to issues with who registers the car vs. who actually drives it.

    But generally you'll find that car-based SUVs appeal to the practical consumer that doesn't need to go off road. Instead they want fuel efficiency, a comfortable ride, and good safety scores.

    In general, women are very practical and buy the vehicle that fits their needs. Men tend to be more influenced by testosterone-driven traits that are far less practical.

    The Forester is very user friendly, easy to get in, easy to load, easy to operate, and easy on the wallet at the pump and with your insurer. It's also very safe, with good crash test scores and ABS standard on every model ever sold in the USA. Those factors may be more appealing to women than knobby mud tires.

    -juice

    PS That women find my car very appealing is a good thing, isn't it? I get thumbs up all the time.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Now you're driving a "chick" car...
  • corey76corey76 Member Posts: 63
    All this mentioning of the Aztek and not one person spelled it right. "k" not "c"
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yes, I'm driving a "chick" car. A babe-magnet. I get lots of stares from beautiful women. They stop me in parking lots to ask about it. Men ignore me completely. It's so horrible! ;-)

    Other things that attract much-wanted attention from beautiful females: puppies and babies. If you're not married, a great strategy is to offer a friend to baby-sit or dog-sit. Women will flock to you, and it's a really great way to break the ice.

    I wish I had thought of that back when I was single! :-)

    -juice
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    lol, juice - all you need to do is to drive the Soob to a wedding with a baby and puppy in tow and you'd cover all the bases. Better yet, take the Miata :-)

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Surprisingly, most Miata owners are male. This surprised me a bit, too, but I guess lots of owners auto cross or keep them as a 3rd car (like me).

    But it still manages to attract females, sure.

    A baby and a puppy at a wedding? You are set! :-)

    -juice
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Corey76- Actually, Aztec is the proper spelling for the ancient indian civilization located in Mexico. It was GM which decided to invent the new spelling. Why I don't know. Maybe the were afraid of being sued by 400 year old mummies!

    -Frank P.
  • speterson1speterson1 Member Posts: 228
    On Subaru's home page there is a link detailing their Sept. 11 response, and they have given "cash and equipment" totalling 1 million, not nothing.
  • HankrHankr Member Posts: 100
    This piece is a bit old and I cannot verify its accuracy as of today... but it does convey what I believe to be a reasonable consideration for us all in our buying decisions...

    ... that in this day and age, though there are indeed small differences between various vehicles, they are ALL by-and-large VERY CAPABLE. 30 years ago we felt lucky to get 100K from a car. Today we don't even go in for a tune-up until then.

    Though I too look at horsepower, handling and cupholders, in the end I've decided that I'm going to BUY AMERICAN.

    If the car's a little noisier, or its cupholder a little less convenient, I'll accept the compromise in exchange for knowing I've sent $20,000 to Detroit (where it is spent and re-spent down the value-chain) than Tokyo or Seoul.

    Just something else to think about.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Hank- You do realize that very few "American" autos are still made in Detroit? Meanwhile many (if not most) of the Toyotas and Hondas along with BMWs, Mercedes, Subarus, etc. are as least assembled in America and may have more American parts content than some allegedly American brand autos. Bottom-line is that "buying American" isn't such a black and white issue any more.

    -Frank P.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Hank's story is one of those urban legends that's getting spammed into mailboxes everywhere. I deleted it above. www.snopes.com is a pretty good link for rumor stories like this one.

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • HankrHankr Member Posts: 100
    Yes... I do realize that many foreign nameplates are assembled here (many with sizable US-sourced content). And many US nameplates are assembled / sourced outside of the US and Canada.

    But it is a consideration for me, and I suspect would be a consideration for more people if they just took a moment to reflect on it.

    The information is available on any car's window sticker, and probably on the web as well.

    I'm not trying to incite any foreign-phobias... just raise an awareness that in a down domestic economy and given our more-than-deserved-unpopularity (IMO) in the rest of the world, we should all consider taking care of our own.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, so buy a Jeep Liberty and help pay for a german CEO's luxury vacation home. Chrysler is owned by Daimler. At least the Liberty is built in Ohio, but many Chrysler models are built in Canada and Mexico (so ALL the money goes overseas, labor and profit).

    Then look at Subaru. GM is the biggest shareholder. The Forester is built in Japan, but the Outback is made in Indiana, so isn't it more "American" than the Jeep? By far, IMO.

    GM also owns large stakes in Suzuki and Isuzu, and Rodeos are made in Indiana next to those Outbacks. Saab is a GM division, and I think they just acquired Daewoo.

    Ford owns most of Mazda, Jaguar, and Volvo.

    DCX has Mitsubishi.

    So, who is independent? Hyundai, even though they teamed up with Kia. But they remain Korean, and build the Santa Fe there.

    Toyota is, even though they have a partnership with GM and make many models here.

    Honda is probably the most independent, but they too assemble cars here, and use Isuzu diesels in Europe.

    If you limit yourself like that, there is almost nothing left. GM and Ford are the only true "domestic" makes left over, but the Focus is european. Even the Saturn LS was based on Opel chassis and powertrains (european again).

    It used to be easy, but it's so complicated today that honestly you are better off just buying the best car, not one with a (formerly) American label.

    -juice
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    It is truely hard to "Buy American" anymore. But, you can at least make sure the vehicle is at least assembled in the U.S. When my wife wanted an Accord I made sure the one I bought was at least assembled in the U.S. If Americans educated themselves on the WTO and NAFTA it truely benefits the largest corporations. Giving them access to cheap labor and resources. We have lost more American jobs, good family wage paying jobs to China in the last 10 years than to any country in U.S. history. They have a policy that if you are going to sell it in China is must be at least made in China.... What a concept.... After Sept 11 I am trying my hardest to buy American products..
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Just look at the first character of the VIN, if it's a "1" it was assembled in the USA.

    My guess is that in 2002 most automakers are going to lose money, so don't worry about where profits end up. They'll actually be subsidizing your purchase with their losses.

    -juice
  • HankrHankr Member Posts: 100
    You are right, and more exacting than I was.

    I'd happily drive a Legacy / Outback, but I'd exclude the Forseter (the one I like best). No way on the Hyundai, Jeep would be a maybe, etc.

    But it will be an exercise I'll go thru in a month or two when I create my "possible" list in my purchase process.

    It is important to me a) where assembled; b) domestic content, c) country of ultimate ownership; in that order.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    This discussion really belongs in the News & Views section.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Perhaps, but this topic has been a bit slow lately. :-)

    Back on topic, the 2003 Forester redesign debuts on Wednesday at 10:45 am. It may be on sale as early as May, too. Should have evolutionary updates, though it is a complete redesign.

    -juice
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
  • canadatwocanadatwo Member Posts: 198
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Toronto next.

    Bob
  • guyfguyf Member Posts: 456
    Will be unveiled at the Chicago Auto Show.
  • guyfguyf Member Posts: 456
    I was just checking customer ratings on Car Point. The Santa Fe comes out with 9.1 overall, 9.3 Recommendation; the highest of all SUV'S I've checked there; higher than CR-V, Highlander, MDX, BMW X5, Forester, etc...

    For those of you who still hesitate due to the old Hyundai reputation that is something to consider...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's good news. They also scored 2nd in JD Power's APEAL study this year, behind the Aztec.

    If they can boost their reliability scores, and maybe shed some weight, they could do some serious damage in the small SUV class.

    Check out the Forester: www.media.subaru.com. Click on Forester, then check out the last two pics. They modernized the look, made it a tad bigger in each dimension, and lifted it for more ground clearance.

    -juice
  • canadatwocanadatwo Member Posts: 198
    My thoughts are probably not yet.

    1. Needs a restyle to be acceptable to far more people (similar as the Forester, but not as bad as the Aztek)

    2. Hyundai vehicles will never (not in the next 10 years anyway) get the same same recognition as Japanese or German vehicles, no matter how good they build them. Dealers are far and few in between for a reason.
  • guyfguyf Member Posts: 456
    You may be right but it may not take 10 years. Recognition is nice but it's you who have to pay for it when you buy but you do get some of it back at resale time.

    When we buy a Hyundai, there is no premium for the "name" or to pay for Jacques Villeneuve F1 engines...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hyundai did remarkably well in sales per dealer, though, so the dealer network is likely to grow. I read that they only had 576 dealers in 2001.

    Perception lags about 3-5 years behind reality. If the new Hyundais hold up well 5 years from now, then people will forget their bumpy start in the US.

    Hyundai spends money racing, for sure. They compete in the WRC series, and even in the US Rally. This year they are expected to be Subaru's main competitor (Subaru swept last year).

    -juice
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    is not without faults. Visit www.auto.com, and www.alldata.com and see the recalls and TSBs....
    I am not trying to put them down just giving information.....
  • canadatwocanadatwo Member Posts: 198
    in an off-road ranking by a "noted" 4x4 test driver Robin Choiniere.

    See "The Auto Guide 2002" by Jaques Duval page 40.

    Suprised me really. But looking at the pictures, it looks like most of the testing was done on gravel areas. Also, no explanation was given for the rankings. As well,the Liberty won the overall test.

    The off-road rankings went:
    Forester
    Liberty
    Xterra
    Tribute
    Escape
    Rav4
    XL7
    SantaFe
    CRV
    Sportage.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Hmmm... I'll have to read the article but there's no way a Forester could beat a Liberty in a true off-road test. Don't get me wrong, the Forester is plenty capable of handling the off-roading requirements of 95% of SUV owners but I'm pretty sure the Liberty is the best fit for that other 5%.

    -Frank P.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I have to question that article that the Forester beats the Liberty offroad.. I do offroading with friends that have Jeeps/ATV's and 4x4 trucks. The Liberty is built to offroad with its suspension, chasis and ground clearance. The V6 in the Jeep would also give it a huge advantage over the Forester when pulling itself out of tough spots. This test will have to be looked at in detail and facts only instead of opinions.....
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    No wonder the Forester won this "off-road" test...that's where its advantages are - on gravel.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Come to a Light Off-road Event in Southern NJ!


    http://isuzu-suvs.com/events/pb02-17-01/index.html


    A Light off-road event in Southern New Jersey! Come enjoy the trails!


    -mike

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If the test is set up to measure speeds in light-duty scenarios, I can see how the Forester would excel. Keep in mind it's based on the World Rally Championship Impreza chassis, and is used by the Subaru WRC in rally reconnaissance missions.

    Look at it this way: would you rather do a power slide in a Forester, or a taller, tippier SUV?

    -juice
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Oh the Forester hands down :-) But then I don't consider doing power slides on gravel to be off-roading either.

    -Frank P.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, it's RallyCross, but technically that's still off road. ;-)

    Car & Driver said it was very capable off road when they first tested it, with ground clearance and approach/departure angles being the limitations. And that was an L model, with no rear LSD.

    Edmunds also mentioned the ride was more comfortable off road than some trucks.

    So for light duty, why not? It's worked well for me at the beach and at our Pine Barrens run (sand/mud mix).

    -juice
  • gsogymratgsogymrat Member Posts: 97
    Because I am leasing a Cherokee I got a letter from Jeep saying if I test drove a Liberty within the next 2 week they would give me a cool Jeep duffle bag. My lease is not up for several months but in the interest of getting a good comparison I test drove the Liberty, Escape, Tribute and Santa Fe in the same afternoon. I didn't drive the Forester, CR-V, Rav4 or Vue because they either couldn't pull my camper or I didn't like their styling/features. I'm looking for a 2WD model under $23K so that is what I tested. The Liberty had great interior styling and features (LOVED the radio controls on the steering wheel) and a nice solid feel but I didn't like the MPGs, the swing-out tailgate, the rear-wheel drive or Jeep-style ride. The Jeep dealership here also sells Mazdas and the saleperson was surprised I preferred the Tribute. I liked the zippy responsiveness, the layout of the cargo space and the exterior styling. However the wind noise coming off the roof rack was quite loud at highway speed. Maybe they installed the crossrails wrong because there was not as much noise from the Escape. The Escape was nice but I preferred the subtle styling and driving differences of the Tribute. The Santa Fe was my favorite of the bunch. It had the most quiet sedan-like drive, most comfortable seats and definitely the most features for the money- leather, auto climate control, etc. My only complaint is the front exterior styling-- the humps over the front wheel are too high and block your view. My partner liked the Liberty and the Santa Fe but being from L.A., where you are what you drive, wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai. The new Kia SUV looks very promising from the pictures and specs, so I will definitely look at it when it hits the showroom.
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