Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

jaserb

Why do I feel like I was just flamed by the host? Weird...

Anyway, this is what I was talking about. Apparently you just need to take the front tire off.

-Jason

jeffmust2

I for one like a host with a sense of humor.

And don't Hyundai owners need a sense of humor, sooner or later?

Like taking the front tire of a Santa Fe off is going to help you put bikes inside. That's plain silly.

mudpuddle

The 2001 Santa Fe brochure has a picture of 2 bikes loaded in the back of it. I'll have to find the brochure to describe it accurately.

jaserb

Although, the image of someone pulling the front tires off their SUV to help fit their bike inside is pretty funny. Steve, if you're still around, the Santa Fe might be just what you're looking for, and you could save some money compared to the Liberty / Escape.

-Jason

mudpuddle

The 2001 Santa Fe brochure does show a picture of 2 bikes, front wheels removed, in an upright position, in the back of a Santa Fe. There is an available interior bike rack which can be purchased from the dealer. The back seat is folded down in the picture. Very neat looking set up.

scape2

in my opinion the styling is either you like it or don't like it. I have a chip on my shoulder for Korean products after reading an artile in a business week about how one sided the trade practices are with South Korea. They will sure sell them here but hate to buy ANY American made products!
The Escape offers two different bike racks. One for the roof and one for the rear. You can easily fit two bikes into the rear of the Escape. I have done it. Its nice the seats fold flat. I will be the first to admit. Ford stumbled at the intruduction of the Escape and will pay for a few years until people realize the Escape/Tribute are reliable and quality built vehicles. My wife, kids and I are outdoor type people. My Escape will soon be tested in the Mountains.. skiing time!...Ford/Mazda did do their homework check these out....

p0926

Scape- You got it almost right with your statement that "Ford stumbled at the intruduction of the Escape and will pay for a few years until people realize the Escape/Tribute are reliable and quality built vehicles."

I think that a more accurate way to put it would be: Ford stumbled at the introduction of the Escape and will pay for a few years until it can prove that the Escape/Tribute are reliable and quality built vehicles. But then it's a Ford product that we're talking about and reliable and quality aren't the first adjectives that spring to mind when discussing Fords. ;-)

-Frank P.

mudpuddle

Can someone explain why the transportation charges for a Ford/Mazda Triscape (built in Kansas City)are higher than the transportation charges for a Santa Fe (which is built in Korea). Ya see, scape2, it's stuff like that which irritates consumers. Forget about the South Korean trade practices....GM just took over Daewoo, that's how you get your foot in the door in Asia.....there are no real borders anymore when it comes to business. We should be thankful that there are foreign competitors keeping the pressure on GM & Ford.

suvshopper4

mudpuddle: I believe the transportation charges are directly related to the average costs of moving a (foreign-built) vehicle from the US port to the dealership or the (North American-built) vehicle from the manufacturing plant to the dealership.
The cost of the foreign-built vehicle's boat ride from Asia or Europe to the US is not reflected in the transpo charges. That is part of the invoice price.
I think.

zxrsizer

Juice,

Where did you get your bike rack? How much was it? Can you remove it when not using it so you can get into your rear hatch?

I note the presence of the baby carrier. We have one of those, too.

Thanks.
Mayme

odie6l

I'm surprised all this talk about a Santa Fe accesory hasn't gotten some nibbles from HUNG yet. I have my head impact cushion on my monitor ready.

Odie

diploid

Haven't seen a post from him in a long time.

scape2

over this stigma of its lack of reliablity. Please check www.msn.carpoint.com and go to the advice section on cars/trucks. They have data showing every make/model for years back. Ford doesn't do as bad as so many wish/or think they do.... SURPRISE!

scape2

of a world economy. I believe In FAIR trade. Granted GM owns Daewoo, but who is keeping their jobs? I have lost my job to "Foreign competition" and its no fun. You can't compete with people willing to work for $3 an hour... and worse yet a buck a day! I was fortunate to go back to school and land a good job, now this ones on turning shakey and trends show will once again be "exported" in the future....

jmlagasca

Although something like this may never happen under normal driving conditions it's definitely something to talk about and to consider. Take a look:

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code= carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=02945750

To hell with those edmunds posting rules , what's with this 115 characters max? Anyways type in the above url with no spaces...

BTW, I do like the Liberty a great deal. Great looking and very capable!

tidester

jm,

what's with this 115 characters max?

I've been hit with that a few times myself - yes, it's irritating! I'll look into it.

tidester
Host
SUVs

p0926

Jeff- Interesting article. I find it odd that AutoWeek doesn't install outriggers (such as those used by CU) when they conduct cornering tests that by their own admission "push the subject vehicles to find their limits". I also thought the passenger compartment of the Jeep held up pretty good considering it rolled twice on pavement. Finally, this accident again proves the point that any SUV handles differently than a car and the higher the CG then the greater the likelihood of a rollover occurring. While the Liberty no doubt has the highest CG and the Forester the lowest, all the vehicles in this topic are more prone to rolling over than virtually any passenger sedan.

-Frank P.

vin_weasel

and the sooner people realize that, the safer we'll all be. It's really scary to see a top heavy SUV making rapid lane changes through traffic like it was a little sports car.

ateixeira

Mayme: mine is the OE Subaru bike rack and hitch. Each were about $200 from a wholesaler, but I use the hitch for towing and wanted it anyway.

It does fold and yes you can open the hatch, even with the bikes still on there, which I do routinely. It slides right off once you remove the locking pin. Nice thing is you have to lift the bike only a foot or so, so it's really easy to load. The catch? It only holds 2 bikes, while some hold 3 or 4.

That Liberty rollover is a bit spooky. I'm a big fan of the Liberty, but admit it did feel a bit tipsy. It's a vehicle I would drive more slowly than my Forester, by default, though. Maybe Jeep should be using tires that are less grippy, so it slides sideways instead of tipping.

Buying vehicles according to their origin is a zero-sum game. Let's say you shopped a PT Cruiser and an Outback, US vs. Japan, right? Totally wrong. The PT Cruiser is built in Mexico by DAIMLER Chrysler, a German company. The Outback is built in Indiana, USA, and the largest stakeholder is GM.

The Jeep Liberty is also German owned, and the Ford Escape was developed mostly by Mazda. None of the cars we are discussing are completely domestic.

-juice

scape2

All SUV's have rollover probablity, not just the LIberty. People just need to learn to slowdown and take it easy....

diploid

Or a Forester.

ateixeira

Well, they are more likely to roll, as is anything with a high center of gravity. The Liberty is particularly tall, too.

But what I'm saying is that suspension engineers should know the cornering limits, at least in controlled slaloms and skidpad tests, and should choose the tires accordingly.

I was able to drive several cute-utes at Edmunds Live, and they had a slalom course. None of the ones I drove wanted to tip over, they all just made their tires howl. My buddy took a Forester a bit too quick in the slalom and it went into a 4 wheel drift, which is how it should behave when you exceed the limits. The Grand Vitara did surprisingly well and was neutral, too, but most others like the RAV4 and CR-V had understeer limit the slalom speeds and the fun.

So I think Jeep ought to take another look at either the suspension or the tires.

-juice

tiredofmanual

It's very possible that a stiffer suspension or different tires could have changed all this. It's even possible that a beefier rollbar would have prevented this.

I have a feeling that what happened is somewhat akin to what knocked down the Tacoma Narrows bridge or why soldiers in days gone by would break cadence when crossing a bridge. The swaying back and forth was at just the right frequency, causing the energy to continue to grow and grow until it went beyond the limits. Remember that it took quite a few runs at very similar speeds before it finally rolled, and when they tried again, they could only get it to go onto two wheels. If this is the case, then it is highly unlikely to happen in a real-world situation. However, a more thorough investigation needs to happen to determine the exact cause.

ateixeira

Well, a beefier anti-roll bar would keep it flatter, but that might actually increase the lateral force limit and make the tendency worse. Stickier tires and wider wheels would have the same effect.

Either way, Jeep owners aren't very likely to be taking slaloms at the limit.

-juice

canadatwo

Makes sennse that the Liberty would have a higher tendency to roll over than say a Forester.

The Liberty has a much higher centre of gravity - it is narrow and tall

Its 6 or 8 inches of suspension travel are an indication of how much "space" there is between the axles and the body of the vehicle.
I would only buy a Liberty if I was going off-highway a fair bit (even logging roads) and was looking for a vehicle that could stand up to it.
Of course, you have to be more careful with the Liberty.

For highway travel, the CRV, Forester, CRV, and even the Escape are better choices.

ateixeira

You said CR-V twice, are you trying to hypnotize us with subliminal messages?

Just kidding. ;-)

-juice

rsholland

Both the Liberty and Montero (which CR got up on two wheels) have long suspension travel. I think both these vehicle need a wider track, to help counter this problem.

Bob

p0926

ateixeira

ZZZ, huh, what just happened? ;-)

Liberty and Montero are very tall, too. The roof rack on the Liberty was hard to reach.

-juice

rsholland

they both need a wider track. The height-to-width (including the track) ratio needs to improve.

Bob

tiredofmanual

You can't get too wide or you risk not fitting on many trails. This is a problem Hummers have, and Jeep would catch even more flak from the faithful if this were to happen.

ateixeira

I don't think it needed to be quite as tall as it is, in that case. Seems like it's 4 inches taller than it needs to be, IMO. That makes the roof rack inconvenient, and the interior is airy but you likely won't actually use that space.

Maybe delete the roof rack plus any top-heavy options (moonroof?) and widen the track by an inch or so.

-juice

p0926

Carefeul Juice, "the interior is airy but you likely won't actually use that space" could just as easily be used to describe the Forester. :-)

-Frank P.

ateixeira

That's true, but the Forester is still a relatively short vehicle, I'm sure the shortest in the class and least likely to tip. It's just the seats are set low, to help the center of gravity, and that makes headroom seem cavernous.

So the Forester doesn't need to be made shorter, perhaps the Liberty does. Just a thought.

-juice

PS Oh, and I've packed bags of wood chips to the ceiling (21 x 3 cubic feet), so I've used that cargo space, for sure.

huck7

It seems that the trade-off for the greater off-road ability in the KJ (Liberty) is the higher risk of roll-over. This is similar to the CJ's and YJ's. Folks should do some homework and buy the vehicle that they are comfortable with. If they want a shorter vehicle, there are plenty to choose from. Although I plan to buy a Liberty, if I lived in a more temperate climate, I would be tempted to buy a cooper-mini. Then I could exchange roll-over for roll-under.

:- )

ateixeira

Stock Wranglers handle really well. I recall some very high skidpad numbers for those. It's just that many folks lift them and then they become vulnerable.

-juice

rsholland

would probably do wonders in terms of resisting rollovers on the Liberty.

Bob

tiredofmanual

Would most likely cost a lot of money, so I wouldn't expect to see that until the next redesign, if at all.

I do agree that an inch or two would make it much more stable and probably wont affect it too much on the trails.

However, in order to maximize it's offroad ability, Jeep just needs to find a way to lower the center of gravity without affecting the ground clearance. I wonder what the weight distribution of the new V6 is. Since it is an overhead cam design, I wonder if it is more top-heavy than the old pushrod inline 6 that it replaced. And with the new IFS, they should be able to mount the engine/transmission lower than before; are they doing this?

p0926

Hey, if they want to lower the Liberty's CG, they just need to put in a H-6 boxer from Subaru :(o)

-Frank P.

ateixeira

A simple solution is to just switch to wheels with a different offset (-15mm would give you more than an inch wider track, effectively). That way the tires can be placed further apart. You do have to take into account the geometry of the suspension, but it's a quick fix they could apply here.

Just got the Autoweek issue in print that wrote about the rollover, the damage is rather severe. An Aussie Forester owner (Troy, from the Yahoo Forester Club) who off roads a lot, and had 2" taller springs, lift kits, and big tires on his, also rolled over, but the damage was only cosmetic and none of the glass even cracked.

The V6 may lie high in the engine bay to help ground clearance.

-juice

rsholland

I think the damage is pretty severe too. I don't like the way the "A" pillar caved in. Reminds me too much of rolled Explorers I've seen pictures of. Their "A" pillar is very weak too.

Bob

canadatwo

see:

www.money.cnn.com/2001/11/29/autos/suvs/

mainly because of the rear mounted spare.

I would guess the CRV would not do well either.

canadatwo

http://money.cnn.com/2001/11/29/autos/suvs/

ateixeira

I found the IIHS source here:

http://www.highwaysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/low_speed.htm

For the vehicles in this topic:

$485 for Tribute/Escape

$573 for Subaru Forester

$1287 for Hyundai Santa Fe

$1417 for Jeep Liberty

That's the average damage for 4 different 5mph tests. Hard to imagine the Jeep suffered that much damage. It seems so sturdy.

-juice

kate5000

old Cherokee also looks sturdy, but I witnessed it totally getting pancaked after a rollover...

xxx1246605

Can anyone tell me what the fair price is for a tribute es with or without a moon roof? I live in the central new jersey area.Thanks Jim

gsogymrat

Surprise! the Pontiac Aztec got JD Powers APEAL award for best entry SUV. This was based on owners responses to a satisfaction survey. The Hyundai Santa Fe was second, Toyota RAV4 third. Overall the most beloved vehicle was Volkswagon's New Beetle.

Here's a link: http://carpoint.msn.com/Browse/win_2879.asp

ateixeira

GM may be guilty of ballot stuffing, though. I know for a fact that they gave several Aztecs to mid-level GM employees, to get them out there for the public to see, since they weren't selling (Automotive News).

I'm not sure if they were loaners or keepers, but if those employees were in the survey that taints the results.

Another funny story was that after Richard won an Aztec on Survivor, Rosie O'Donnell bought one for each of the other contestants. Lots of freebies, basically, and if you didn't pay for a car that might just bias your survey a little. ;-)

Also, you have to love the Aztec to get past its looks, so the very few that did must find it appealing.

Still, an odd but interesting fact.

-juice

scape2

is being redone sometime in 2002. It is going to loose its body side cladding and much of its awkward appearance. There is a picture of one in Motor Trend, I believe it was the August or September issue. It looks 10x better...

winbro

it'll probably look more like the buick rondevous. aren't they the same platform?