Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

1272830323396

Comments

  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    I believe you're correct. The Freelander was available before Ford bought the Land Rover division of Rover from BMW.
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    I'll take the rear mounted spare any day.

    Ever look at 4x4 magazines? They must all put it there for SOME reason, right?

    (ease of access, out of the way, more cargo room)

    Plus, it is one more thing between you and the driver behind you...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's right, a 5 speed auto would be the first-in-class, and it makes the steptronic features more fun because there is more shifting to do.

    Also, I think it'll be the only one here that manages both axles.

    Questions is, is that enough? Probably, given the low volumes and the cachet of the name.

    I like the Defenders with the spare on the roof. Now that looks cool.

    -juice
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    The Freelander was first introduced in Europe in 1997. Ford took ownership of Land Rover on July 1, 2000. The initial design of the Freelander was started around 1991-2, which predates BMW ownership. At the time it was designed, Rover Grp actually had a partnership agreement with Honda, which had supplied the platform for the Stirling, which was based on the Acura Legend. Honda also marketed a version of the Discovery in Japan from 93-95 as the Crossroad. The CRV was inspired by initial design studies of the Freelander.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I recall the Honda connection. Didn't know about the CR-V though.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    As usual, always good informative info. Thanks.

    Bob
  • odie6lodie6l Member Posts: 1,173
    The Landrover Freelander was designed by Jerry McGovern and when FMC deceided to to design the Escape/Tribute they asked Jerry McGovern to oversee the Design and Development of the Escape/Tribute. I'm not saying the the Escape is an perfect mirrored image of the Freelander. But when you look at them they do alike in many ways, just like the Aztek and Rendavous look alike but have differences. The Differences is what makes the each Manufacture's body style different. Another example is the Chevy Cavalier and the Saturn SL1. They are built on different assembly lines in different plants, but they are the same car with different styles.

    I'm sorry if this upsets you Tincup.

    Odie
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    A civil difference of opinion will never upset me. Gerry McGovern didn't join Ford until 1999, and while he may have had some influence on styling details, the basic design would have had to have been locked in to make the Spring of 2000 launch. Normal vehicle development takes 3-4 years, and basic design is one of the first things that has to be locked in, as this is a prerequisite to engineering and sourcing tooling for production. There is a lot of speculation about the Freelander, claiming it shares a platform with the CRV or Escape. It shares no parts with either. I personally see no more resemblence between the Freelander and Escape than I do between the CRV and Escape/Tribute. But styling is subjective, and I do respect your opinion. But please do me a favor, do not use the Freelander and the Aztek in the same message again. (Shudder) ;)
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    The Rendezvous and the A***K have a lot more in common than just looks. They are after all GM siblings and as such, share a great number of parts.

    -Frank P.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Odie: I have to disagree. I think the Escape and Tribute look more like the CR-V and Explorer.

    The Freelander looks about as unique as you get in this segment, without getting too frisky like the Santa Fe.

    Also, it does not share a platform or engine with the Escape. That's not necessarily a good thing, since it won't match the 200hp in the Escape, but they surely do not share parts like the Aztec and Rendezvous do (GM minivan platform, engine the same).

    Heck, even the Pontiac Montana has more in common with the Buick Rendezvous.

    About all the Escape and Freelander have in common is their basic two-box shape, but you could say that about all SUVs.

    Also, the Cavalier and Saturn do not share a platform or any engines. The Sunfire is the Cavalier's twin. I've rented a Cavalier, and it feels substantially different than a Saturn.

    Again, they share a basic sedan shape, that's all.

    -juice
  • odie6lodie6l Member Posts: 1,173
    http://www.nctd.com/sneakpreviews/02lr-freelander_sp.cfm


    here's a pic of my Escape taken at the same angle as the 1st pic of the Freelander. Just for you to compare.
    image

    Odie


    P.S. - IMO it still looks like an Escape to me.

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    look similar in the same sense that Camrys, Accords, Galiants all look similar.

    Tincup's right, in that they share no parts—and he's in a position to know, since he works for Land Rover.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    BTW, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm not asking you to change yours, just defending mine.

    Check out the windows towards the rear. They sweep up like the Discovery, giving it a taller stance. The front hood is also very unique looking. The Escape is far more plain looking (still handsome, mind you).

    A key difference is it has permanent AWD with a viscous coupling, like that in the Santa Fe, RAV4, and Subarus with manual trannies. Ford uses a completely different system that doesn't even have a center diffy.

    Also, the Ford has a hatch that lifts up, while the Freelander will get a swing open door. That makes more of a difference than it seems, because the structure has to be beefed up in the areas where the hinges lie.

    So, different chassis, engine, drivetrain, tranny, and (to my eyes) styling.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Check out Edmunds sampling of Subaru's AWD:

    http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/driving/articles/46997/article.html

    Now THAT is off-roading! Woo-hoo!

    Also, someone asked about Forester vs. Impreza production. Originally, they were to build 10,000 WRXs, but that changed almost immediately to 12,000 due to pre-orders, and now it's up to 15,000. So those 5,000 come at the expense of Forester production, since they're made side-by-side in Gunma, Japan.

    So expect about 10% less supply of Foresters this year. Demand is still good - no rebates.

    -juice
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    I certainly agree that taking that angle from the photo's there is a resemblence. I guess having seen the two together side by side from all angles I see many more differences than similarities.
  • cpintucsoncpintucson Member Posts: 41
    If you want to take your SUV off-road a gate mounted spare is far superior to under-mount for hill ingress/egress clearance.

    Why even consider a spare mounted in the "cargo" compartment?

    As far as gate-mounted spares go, it's about time American car makers realize that we park with the passenger side adjacent to the curb. Why did it take so long to have the gate swing toward the driver's side?

    American owners of Freelander, don't you find this a big inconvenience to have the gate swing the "wrong way"? What was Land Rover thinking when designing a car sold in America?
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    I have no problem with the rear door being hinged on the right. For my usage, it is even mildly convenient - it saves me two steps going between the rear door and the driver's door.
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    The Freelander was designed and built in Britain by an English vehicle manufacturer, a country that drives on the LH of the road, hence the gate design. Land Rover did not have the resources to redesign the rear opening for the US market. I agree that it should open the other way for this market, and maybe it will on the next redesign. That would depend on whether sales justify that happening.
    Land Rover Discovery owners have been dealing with the same issue since 94, and there are very few complaints lodged with LRNA (oops)I mean AMJLRNA about this.
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    #1702 Jeep Liberty Crash Test Performance

    "...after owning this vehicle for 11 days, my husband was hit on the passenger side by a large van traveling approximately 45mph. The car sustained the impact, rolled and remained upside down. My husband walked away with only scratches and a stiff neck. I am very pleased with the safety performance of this vehicle. We are ordering a new 2002!!..."
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Chris: it's cost cutting measure that Honda and Toyota are also guilty of. They don't retool for our side of the road.

    The spare inside and under cover is the best for both safety and convenience. They don't have to occupy cargo space as they did on the Cherokee - just look at a Forester. They even make use of the wheel cavity to offer a water-proof cooler that'll hold a 12 pack! :-)

    Outside mounted spares can wreach havoc even in very low speed collisions, block your view, require several steps to open, and/or make the hatch heavy. If you driving in mud and get a flat, the spare may get filthy.

    Just got back from the Outer Banks and had a nice time driving my Forester on the beach just south of Salvo. No problems going right up the 4x4 ramp and driving around, even in soft sand. Oh, and I got 26.5mpg driving down, including the day on the beach, and 28.4mpg coming back. That despite having a cargo carrier on my roof the whole time!

    image

    -juice
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    It's odd that they don't retool for the American market. But what's even more interesting is that the spare is located on the right side (especially in the CR-V's case), and since other markets have the wheel on the right side, it means that rear view is blocked partially by the spare.
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    ...really worry about the rear view over a spare tire?
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    If you look over your right shoulder while backing the spare should be on the left side on a LHD vehicle, as what you see best would be the RH side of the rear glass.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Thanks tincup. So they not only don't switch the hinges for the tailgate, the spare is left to block our view as well. At least on the CR-V, the spare is low and not actually high & centered, like in the Sportage.
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    would require more than just switching hinges, it would require structural changes in the rear pillars along with trying to match RHD taildoors with RHD vehicles and LHD taildoors with LHD vehicles. Also the machines that line up the taildoors with the body while the taildoor is being attached would have to be redesigned to work either way and synchronised with the vehicle to assure LHD taildoors wouldn't arrive at a RHD body. The costs involved in this do not justify changing design.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    for having a "liftgate" design instead, that works perfectly for both LHD and RHD markets.

    My preference for the spare tire, is for a roof-mounted unit, with some sort of an "easy-swing-down-access" feature. It could even be enclosed in an aerodynamic casing.

    Bob
  • vin_weaselvin_weasel Member Posts: 237
    The other day I saw an SUV I didn't recognize from behind. I got closer and it turned out it was a Liberty (which I normally pick up right away). The reason I didn't recognize it was because the rear tire had been removed. It looked like it had suffered an impact on the tire. The only damage to the vehicle was the sheet metal around the mounting bracket seemed to be pushed in. No glass damage. It was a dealer vehicle so I can only guess that the incident happened when they were unloading the vehicle or something relatively minor. I wonder how these are going to stack up rear-collision wise to the other vehicles with rear-mounted spares.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    'squatch: hopefully they do when backing up! Unless they park by braille, that is! :-O

    Bob: your idea has a problem too - it raises the center of gravity of an already tall vehicle, with ill effects on handling.

    My wife got an offer for a $50 certificate if she drove a Buick, so we went a test drove a Rendezvous.

    It's a vast improvement over the Aztec, for several reasons, but I still didn't like it much. The front seat wasn't comfortable for me, and that engine is coarse and unrefined, not to mention slow. They should use the 3.8l. Passenger room was good but cargo room non-existent with the 3rd seat in place. The faux carbon fiber trim looked cheap and fake.

    In summary, not much of a threat to any existing SUVs, except perhaps GM's own Aztec.

    -juice
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    The roof can be like that of a Nissan XTerra or Land Rover Discovery and let the tire hang from the ceiling in the cargo area where it won't hit passengers in the head.

    The SUV won't suffer much in terms of aerodynamics (since when do SUVs have aerodynamics, anyway? Since when does one care about an SUV's aerodynamics?), and you can have a liftgate and a full sized spare that doesn't block the rear.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Yeah, putting a spare on the roof will add 50 or so pounds to the roof, which is not great. It just means more effort needs to be put into better handling to compensate the higher CG. Perhaps all that's needed would be a wider track?

    The other problem with a roof-mounted spare might be parking garages with low ceilings.

    Or...

    Another possible solution: What if the spare was mounted vertically in front of the radiator, under the hood? Obviously the front of the vehicle, including engine compartment would have to be designed for that from the get-go. It might also aid in crashes.

    There's no law that says a spare has to be at the back of the vehicle. It could even be mounted in a tub under either the front or rear seats too. Honda's Odyssey has a donut spare located under the middle seat, under the floor. Years ago, Subaru used to mount the spare under the hood, over the engine. This worked fine because the low-mounted boxer engine allowed room for that kind of arrangement. Also, Land Rovers used to mount the spare on top of the hood.

    Bob
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    I don't believe that you can mount a spare in the engine compartment anymore due to U.S. Federal safety requirements, and most vehicles lack the room in the engine compartment. If it was mounted in front of the radiator it would severely compromise vehicle cooling and could interfere with the SRS system. I know mounting on the hood is no longer allowed in the US as it obscures forward vision and could become a dangerous missile in case of an accident. As has been stated the location is always a compromise based on convenience, image, tradition with regulations and liability issues as additional considerations.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    The problem is that, well at least for me, a full sized spare is much better than a donut. Otherwise, I'm sure Honda could've done so with the new CR-V.

    Or is it even possible to store the spare under the rear bench? I mean there's gotta be space under the rear seat bench to give it height, and I'm skeptical that automakers would allow passengers to ride directly on top of mechanical components. The only problem I see to this is that you won't be able to flip the seats forward for additional cargo space.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bob: Fiat Unos made in Brazil still have the spare in the engine compartment. It's pretty bizarre to pop the hood and see a full size (!) spare there!

    I imagine there are air flow concerns for cooling if it's out front, plus that could make front-rear balance even worse than the usual 60/40.

    In many vehicles, the gas tank lies under the rear seat.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    If this were possible, obviously the radiator and cooling system would need to be larger/beefier to handle the decreased air flow.

    All I'm suggesting is that the spare doesn't have to go in the rear. I think there are other locations that could work, and I'm talking about a full-size spare, not just a donut.

    Bob
  • kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    It was fun to trick some folks, saying "this car does not have an engine, it runs on a spare tire, wanna see?", then pop the hood, and there it was! The small 1.8L engine was almost completely hidden underneath. You should have seen the looks on peoples faces!

    I had a few people insisting on looking in the cargo area, searching for the engine... "it has to be rear-mounted, right?", hee hee hee.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    IIRC the Yugo's spare was also mounted on top of the engine...no thanks!

    -Frank P.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I thought the Yugo had a spare there *instead* of an engine.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I just put up some nice photos of our off road trip from this weekend. Check out photos 16 and 32 of my Pine Barrens album to see my Forester in action.

    -juice
  • sasquatch_2000sasquatch_2000 Member Posts: 800
    What about on the fender like in the old days?
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    LOL@ the Montero stuck in the mud.
  • mad0865mad0865 Member Posts: 176
    Juice, that looks awful familar; was that the Pine Barrens of NJ?

    -mad
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yep, near the Atsion Ranger Station.

    Pretty fun stuff. We even had an Impreza RS in our group. Cars with less clearance could take easier bypass routes around the tough stuff. We had tow straps and large SUVs to help us out if needed, but the RS never got stuck. Neither did any of the Foresters, or the Outback Sport.

    The Monty got stuck, but he was a wild man. He took the water crossing several times, once in reverse!

    An XT6 got stuck in the water, flooding the engine and interior, literally. My Forester crossed that water twice, though slowly the first time.

    The BRAT got stuck in the mud pit a few times, but he was persistent and eventually he conquered even the toughest mud pit.

    While the smaller, lower cars some times skipped the tough sections, they also ran at a faster pace, rally style. I'm glad noone wrapped themselves around a tree, given how narrow the trails were.

    A Forester hit 50mph at one point. It was nuts! I kept speeds more reasonable. It was loads of fun.

    -juice
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    I swam in Atsion Lake as a teenager, and as an adult I canoed the Mullica River, putting in just across the road from the lake.

    Pretty country, in its own way.

    ejp
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    It seems as if everyone on here is either from NJ or Canada.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Most in our group were from PA, MD, or NY, and drove to the event.

    I saw the lake when I drove to use the rest room. There wasn't one near the ranger's station (across the street). It's really nice out there. For families, there are two very nice playgrounds near the parking lot.

    The trails start next to the ranger station, and aren't hard to find. They sell trail maps there, too.

    -juice
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    Does anyone know what percentage of the Escapes and Tributes sold are 4-cylinder models?
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    No, but I bet it's miniscule.

    Frank P.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Most of the Escapes I've seen do not wear the V-6 badge of honor.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    An Autoweek preview article on the new CR-V mentioned that most Escape owners opt for the V6. They did not offer specific data, just that tid bit.

    It's a big spread in power. 130hp is low for the class, and 200hp is near best-in-class. To me the choice is obvious.

    -juice
  • big_guybig_guy Member Posts: 372
    Here where I live, every Escape or Tribute I have seen on the road has been a V6. I haven't seen any of the 4 cylinder models on the roads. Same thing goes for the Sante Fe . . . all the ones I have seen on the roads have been the V6. Just an observation.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Your Privacy

By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.