Has anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area managed to find a dealer willing to sell the Sequoia at anything below MSRP. Seems to me a bit steep to be paying 5-8K over the rival competition. I'm looking for a 4x4 SR5, not fully loaded though.
So far been through : Toyota Vallejo, Toyota Fremont,Toyota Oakland,Toyota Walnut Creek ....
Like all things the vehicle is new, so what can i expect - if anyone has made good deals out there let me know and with who - i'd really appreciate it.
Width-wise, a 4x8 sheet of plywood fit easily with room to spare. The rear door closed after I placed the front of the plywood on the headrest (the plywood was only a 1/4 thick). A 10' 2x6 fit just under the sun visor.
Dude, that's exactly my dilemma. I can't see spending that extra $8,000. And in terms of interest and monthly payments it adds up to even more. I've looked and looked and pondered and pondered and I can't see spending the extra money. All the SR5 Sequoias I've looked at are right around $37,000-$40,000. There's nothing wrong with a Tahoe. Nothing! Read Automobile Magazine's 4 x 4 Field Guide, it gives the Tahoe a great review. It even says that "it is an excellent choice." The Sequoia is nice but you also get a lot for a $32,000 Tahoe. It also depends on what you need it for. Do you need it for serious towing? There's quite a difference between the two, as in 2,200 lbs. Plus, the Tahoe has less plastic on the outside and seems a lot more solid. Sure, the Sequoia rides and handles a little bit better, but not much. If you have the extra cash and are willing to spend it on the Toyota quality, then do it. Talking to Toyota owners, they're great vehicles. But just to let you know, my friend leased a Tahoe and absolutely loved it. He just got out of the lease and right back into another Tahoe. He strongly recommended it to me. I've looked at a fully-loaded Tahoe for $36,000. Good luck!
And for movan, it's ludicrous to compare the 2002 Escalade and the Sequoia. It's not even close. You're silly to think the Sequoia is actually equal or better. I'm laughing so hard it's hard to even continue this message ... Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
joerafferty: if you are still unable to make a decision about whether to buy the Tahoe or the Sequoia, the reason may very well be that (a) your head tells you what is right, but your heart says another, or (b) the opposite of (a)...:-)
Seriously though, joerafferty has been *searching* for the perfect SUV - low cost being the xfactor. Time and time again he has referenced the Tahoe as being a "good alternative" to the SEQ... Go ahead, make that purchase of your beloved Tahoe. You know it is the wrong decision otherwise you would have done it by now.. Procrastinate for as long as you like, finally after everything is said and done, you will buy that Sequoia even if it kills you :-)
I had a very hard time finding a Limited 4x4 Sequoia in the Bay Area. After shopping with AT LEAST a dozen dealerships ( from Gilroy up to Vacaville) and walking out of MANY we finally got exactly what we wanted from Gary Brown at San Francisco Toyota for 1500 under MSRP. Give him a call and good luck.
You are right, my heart wants the Sequoia ( even though it will be my wifes) but my head has to get involved when were talking the $$$ differences. You are right in that you get what you pay for, but if I pay the extra and get a clicker or vibrator, then I will be as frustrated as many over on the trunda solutions board. I spoke with Dianne and she has not had one customer with those traits ( I think cliffy also said he is not aware of any customer with those problems) but the list is growing and they are not happy.
listen up... There will ALWAYS be problems with every car out there. That is inevitable. Yes, the SEQ does have some problems... surprise ! surprise!! but is it any better or worse than other vehicles out there ?
The biggest issue has been on the ticking/ clicking noise owners have found. This noise is more an annoyance than a problem hazard. Yes, it is not a good thing to have the engine tick endlessly, and I can understand how an owner feels about this. But, more interesting observation is that many of us think that Toyota is "invincible" and cannot make a *bad* product (I am not saying the SEQ is a bad product), hence at every opportunity, owners will complain of ne thing or the other.
I started on this board complaining about the radio antenna on the SEQ I purchased, and quickly realised that it is nothing more than aesthetics. There could be far worse problem than a simple radio antenna not retracting when I switch from radio to Tape or CD.
I am not saying you should plough your hard-earned $$ on this vehicle, just letting you know that there are both good stories and bad stories about every vehicle. The difference, imo, is that your Toyota product will, more often than not, last you much longer and will give you many years of reliability than most of its competition. The price you pay may be steep, though...
Your choice... I made mine and bought the SEQ and loves it, ticking or not, vibration or not...
I am a positive person, and prefer to look at the many good things in the vehicle w/out focusing endlessly on the *wrong* things... Call me an eternal optimist :-)!
Someone else echoed what I was thinking...Go ahead and make the fiscal move and buy the Tahoe and you are guaranteed to regret it. Certainly the Sequoia will get you $2000 or more in resale value over the Tahoe or other domestic. I see 1999 Expeditions in the paper selling for $30,000 and just have to laugh. Right now you can get a loaded 2001 Expy for about $30K, sombody's losing their shirt. Besides the Tahoe/Expy's are a dime a dozen. The "exclusivity" of the Sequoia has to be worth another $1000 or so.
Also, in reference to the Sequoia "desing flaw" about the buffeting noise. This happens with all large vehicles, it bothers me so much that I lock out the window function while I'm on the hwy. It is kind of neat to open that back window, some noise but tolerable (unless you have a tractor-trailer bearing down on you).
Believe me I am not looking for problems, I have owned many Toyota's including a Camry now. And I agree that overall , Toyota does make a better product and I think the Sequoia is a great vehicle. When I started the process back in November, my goal was to have a Sequoia around May. I had not even been looking at the tahoe's, but just recently in Seattle the Tahoe price has come down below dealer invoice that is why I have even started to look at them. If I don't get the Sequoia, its not because I don't want one.
does anyone have an idea how much it costs the Ford to put together a single Expy ? Or how much it cost Toyota to do same for the SEQ ? Or Chevy for the Tahoe ?
My take is this:
Each Expy XLT probably cost no more than $9K tops from factory. The dealer buys it at ca. $18K tops (lots of dealer incentives, volume discount, dealer holdbacks, rebates,...). Now, we the [non-permissible content removed] buyers walk in and they offer an $8,000 discount on the XLT, for a grand total of $25K for the vehicle. See how much profit the dealer is holding ? Yeah ! The profit is there, alright, otherwise the dealership and Ford would be out of business a long time ago.
Ditto for Toyota and other car makers....
For the SEQ, I'd probably guess at $15K tops from Toyota. Dealer buys at $24K, and the [non-permissible content removed] buyer walks out with a $37K bill and says "Hooray, I got a $2500 off MSRP", like the dealership lost a dime on the deal...
I once saw a $10K off of 2000 TLC in a local paper here in San Diego. Whereas the SEQ had no incentive listed in the ad. Now, if you calculate that the rebate/discount would bring the vehicle down to a *manageable* $45K+ price tag, this may make the decision to buy that 4WD SEQ Limited, a tad difficult ! whatdayathink of that ?
The whole point of this is a reality check when you worry about how much you are willing to pay for a vehicle. Regardless of what you paid, you are still losing the game, it is simply a matter of "how much are you willing to lose?"
I recently (2 weeks ago) made an inquiry for my father into a Toyota Tundra from a dealership within my state. While talking with the salemans, I casually asked about the Sequoia just to see what kind of deal they were offering. He told me that they were letting them go at $100 over invoice. I checked their website and it confirmed it. Today I went to their website and their inventory has dramatically decreased and it only gives MRSP prices, but they still may be willing to make excellent offers. The internet salesman also told me that he had people all over the country buying from him. For those interested check out the following website : http://www.tuscaloosatoyota.com or contact Ryan Gillispie
To answer oac3, I think that I can speak for all salespeople that contribute to this board that the markups that you are quoting for the dealers are far off. Otherwise, we would have retired long ago!(At least I would have). Remember, that while the typical toyota dealer may sell 9 or 10 sequoias a month at a nice profit, they are also selling 60-80 camrys and corollas a month at little or no profit! I don't think that we have to appologize for making a profit. Supply and Demand. The market controls the price in most cases.
Apparently the problem with the bass control in the Land Cruiser has been traced to the amplifier which is being replaced (see the Land Cruiser thread on this board). Does anyone know if this will apply to the Sequoia as well?
You were probably looking in the mirror when you were laughing. As far as "ludicrous to even compare", either R&T or Car and Driver did a review a couple of months ago of the 2002 Escalade, and a separate one on the Sequoia. They loved how the Escalade bounced along, and loved getting into the third row seat through the narrow opening (not). In the comments section by the three reviewers, they said they'd rather spend the money on a loaded up Sequoia than the Escalade. If your definition of luxury is a big wreath on the grill, go for it. I could have bought the Navigator or new Escalade for the same price as my Ltd, but my definition of luxury is far different than yours.
just responding to rhanson3 and joerafferty who are mainly concerned with the cost difference b/w the Tahoe and the SEQ...
i have nothing but utmost respect for the sales people on this forum - cliffy1 and dianne - for example. they are people who have integrity often not synonimous with car sales people. i do not intend to bash them for making a profit; they deserve to.
i make a distinction b/w the dealer and the sales people. the profits of the dealership does not necessarily translate to the $$ made by sales, since each sales person has parts of his/her income coming from the actual sales he/she made, whereas the dealer gets to keep profits from every single deal made by any of its sales force. there is a difference as i am sure you know....
I could not agree more. If I buy the Sequoia it will be most likely from Dianne as she has educated me on this vehicle for the last 9 months, well before it was even introduced. I have also tried to steer people her way on both boards. She earns her business. Cliffy has also spent alot of time educating here and at Tundra solutions. They both do a great job. My price comments were not directed at where their pricing is at, but the price difference in the two vehicles in general. Maybe I am overly concerned, but I had not even considered the Tahoe until I started reading on tundra solutions the vibration and engine problems. I hope these are just isolated occurances because the Sequoia has been, and still is my number one choice.
I am now in possession of a lovely TX couple's Sequoia (ya, ya, you know who YOU are!) and I wanted to -- actually, promised to post when I could see a PM package car with my own brown eyes!
It's really got cloth inserts in the doors and no heated seats. It really doesn't look bad at all, but for someone wanting the smooth doorsides, the company we use to upgrade seats to leather (when there are no side airbags) can easily re-do the doorsides as well to match.
Photos up at the sequoiasolutions.com website to follow in a post I will entitle PM package. This particular car is silver sky.
Movan ... if the grill, wood trim and an "ugly-looking" steering wheel are your main insults towards the Escalade than I guess you're right. The Sequoia is better. (SARCASM!) God forbid anyone mentioned the Escalade has 345 HP (105 more than the Sequoia), 380 lb-ft of torque (65 more than the Sequoia), 8,500 lb. of towing capacity (2,000 more than the Sequoia), an 11-speaker Bose stereo system with a 6-CD in-dash player, the Ultrasonic Rear Parking Assist, the On Star system ... I mean I could go on and on. The only thing I saw in my mirror was you, as I was blowing by you on the highway. Bye, see ya! Give me a break, if I had $50,000 to spend I would race to my nearest Cadillac dealer and plunk it right down on an Escalade. I wouldn't even consider a Sequoia, Tahoe or Yukon. Unfortunately, I don't. I'm done debating. No more, please, it's too tiring.
Before you put down any $$$ on a Caddy read tjos story::: I had a friend who bought a brand new 1999 Caddy Escalade ( when they first came out) I think he paid like $48,500. However after having the vehicle in the shop three times for the same vibration problem .. I told him: see you should have bought the T.L.C. Well he went to the nearest Toyota dealer and test drove a Landcruiser for a half day ( great dealer)..
Well he was sold ( it took a while he was a diehard. buy American type) So he tried to sell his Caddy in June of 2000 , not yet a year old, ...well he had no offer a above $36,000. for two months, needless to say he was very upset. Then finally he just traded in on a 2000 T.L.C. for $33,500. Today he does not get to drive the T.L.C. much, his wife won't let it out of her hands, unlike the Caddy wich his wife hated the Escalade handled.. He stated " He_l will freeze over before I ever buy a Caddy again..!!!
This is from a former GM believer...!! I would take a loaded limited Sequoia over a Escalade any day of the week, so will my friend...By the way I sold a LX 470 for $1,500 less than what I bought it for a year later...(long story) That will never in a 1000 years happen with any year Caddy....!~!
topgn ... They are two totally different friggin' vehicles! The brand new 2002 is totally redesigned. You mentioned the 2000. They're not even close. Your argument doesn't make sense! Listen, the Sequoia is a great SUV. But we're talking about apples and oranges here. And then you mentioned a Land Cruiser????? Sequoia or Land Cruiser????? I'm done chatting!!!!! See you folks later. I'm switching over to the Tahoe/Yukon chat room.
P.S. - This morning on the Today Show a car review magazine rated the Chevy Suburban as the best SUV for resale value. I'm pretty sure that's a GM, right? So chew on that!!!!!
Take it from me. DONT MESS WITH THE SEQUOIA OWNERS. As you are finding out, they hate anything that even resembles something critical of the Sequoia.
Do like the rest of us. Just sit back and watch them speak.
While I think the Sequoia is a good vehicle it is not a great one for my needs but trying to debate things on this board is nothing short of impossible.
Oac, Here in FL I saw an add for 10K off a Land Cruiser as well. Problem was that after gold package and crazy add-ons, the sticker was $65K, it was supposedly a bargain at $55,000. Bottom line is there is no such thing as a $45,000 Land Cruiser, unless you jump in the time machine and go back 5 years. And as far as auto maker profit, what is your point? When I make the decision to purchase anything from a carrot, to a car, to a house, I don't even consider what it costs the seller to produce that product. I don't even think about it. I simply evaluate the product, look at my finances, and evaluate whether the transaction makes good business sense to me at the time. According to your logic, perhaps I should buy a Civic for $13,000 because it costs Honda $11,000 to build it and market it. Plus, I don't even mind dealers holding firm on the MSRP (although I didn't pay sticker). I've walked out of many more dealerships without a purchase than I have had with a purchase. Dealerships are perhaps the most glaring example of the most important economic principle (except for wall street), supply and demand. Joe Rafferty, I saw that Today piece as well about the Suburban holding good value and I was perplexed by the statement. Every year in spring, you can buy Tahoes and Subs all day long either near Invoice or even below invoice. Imagine if you had to have the 2001 Tahoe when it first came out and you paid MSRP. Then two years later, a buyer could buy a 2003 for as much as you want for your used one. And here's another thought, why can you buy Expy's and Tahoes at invoice right now. Perhaps because they built too many of them, they weren't built very well, and the public is getting tired of quality/resale issues. Did you notice the Suburban commercial that came on after that segment? I know, I know, spoken like a true Sequoia homer.
As far as the Seqoia Luxury or not question goes, I have a close friend who owns both an Expy Eddie Bauer and a 2001 Navigator. He flat out agrees that the Sequoia is nicer in every category, except the much noted horsepower category. I've noted many squeaks and quality issues in his 3 month old Navigator, and it cost over $10,000 more. I don't normally "rub it in", but I had to this time.
Okay, before people start to flame me, I must confess that between the Sequoia, MDX, RX300 & ML320, I was most impressed with the Sequoia. The problem is that a lot of people are willing to pay MSRP or more and thus artificially increase the price on the Sequoia above the already very high price set by Toyota. A loaded SR5 goes for $38K or so plus TTL. A loaded Limited goes for $42K and up plus TTL. I can get a loaded '01 ML320 right now at invoice ($40K plus TTL). I just think that the Sequoia is really over priced right now. I am willing to pay a little premium for the Toyota quality and design over the American brand SUV's, but not $6K to $8K or so more. Therefore, I must side with those who are thinking about taking a Tahoe or Yukon over the Sequoia because of the big price difference. For me, since I really don't need that much room, for the same price as the Sequoia, I will take the Mercedes (even though I know that the ML will not be as reliable as the Sequoia). I really like the Sequoia, but not that ridiculously high price.
In response to #1127 - guess they aren't going $100 over invoice in NJ? We aren't sure yet what exactly we want in the Sequoia - have not done much looking because dealers don't have much on their lots to see. I realize people are willing to pay MSRP, but we can't and wouldn't want to. Where in NJ are you located? Let me know if you run any great deals. Thanks.
The fact that people are paying close to MSRP is far from an artificial price increase. That is the result of supply and demand. Yes, there are many vehicles that can be purchased for less and there are reasons for that. The manufacturers built a product that doesn't justify its price in the market. The Sequoia doesn't currently fit into that category. It may some day but not today.
I understand your point, and I do agree that Sequoia is a very desirable product. With that, I still feel that the Sequoia is over priced, just like the MDX. For the life of me, I cannot understand why people are willing to pay near MSRP or even over MSRP for any thing. I would say the same thing about the ML320. When it first came out, people were paying MSRP and over for it, and I thought that was nuts. For that matter when Acura TL first came out it was at and over MSRP, but now you can get it for less. I know everyone has a different price point and the supply and demand and all that (I was an econ major), but whether I call it "artifical" increase or not, there are too many people with the gotta have it now and pay anything attitude that "some how" drive up the price.
It's been stated before, but a big chunk of the price difference will most likely be made up on the back end. If current demand and current production schedules are any indication the resale value of the Sequoia should be much higher and eat up a lot of that price difference. For the people buying Tahoe & Yukon - if this is your preference and it fits into your budget better, then you are making the right choice. Choice is personal after all. Every make and model has horror stories posted about them, some more than others, none are perfect.
brillmtb. Not all Sequoia owners are fanatics, but I will admit some do get a tad defensive. I would attribute some of the defensiveness to first year jitters. We all want to believe in Toyota quality even though we bought these beasts in the first model year. My guess is that you have a Montero? Sweet. I had an 85 Montero Sport and an 89 Raider. I probably would have gone with the Montero Limited, but I needed a little more room.
joerafferty, You are right - The Caddy is much plusher and probably defines luxury in this class. I'm not sure I would jump at it (even if I had the cash) as GM has a lot to prove to me in terms of build quality. I had a bad GM experience a few years ago and don't want to get burned by them again.
Our used car manger just bought a used Sequoia at wholesale auction. It is a silver sky 4x4 Limited with everything you can stuff onto it. MSRP was about $45K. Want to know how much he paid for it? $42500 plus auction fees and transportation. This was at a VERY large regional auction in PA.
I think that is nuts, but he already has it sold for a tidy profit. I think he actually sold it for more than the last Limited I sold new. Somebody out there thinks a 6000 mile used Sequoia Limited that he can take home today is worth nearly the sticker price of a new one that he must wait for.
I'm not posting this message to defend this. Nor and I saying discounts can't be had. What I am saying is that in this region, demand for the 4x4 Limited is extremely high and prices reflect this and probably will for quite some time. The SR5 is not in the same category around these parts but even they aren't too far off.
If anybody is unhappy with their Limited 4x4 and want to get rid of it quickly, ask the used car manager at your dealership if he could take it to Manheim for a cut of the deal.
"I said it right there: The company we use to upgrade to leather (WHEN THERE ARE NO SIDE AIRBAGS)"
Dianne, I hate to be a stickler, but you statement is ambigious and I can't read tone and body language over the net (although in truth I can imagine what kind of tone "I said it right there" might possibly be)
As to the ambiguity...someone may then ask....
"Oh...well than what company do you use when you DO have side airbags?"
I guess it may be easier for me to just make the following statement....
Side airbags and aftermarket leather are not possible at the same time.
You have restored some confidence that not everyone over here is crazy. Appretiate you honesty.
I do believe (want to believe) that Toyotas built in the US are close to the same quality as thier established Japanese models. I helped buy a Toyota for my mother-in-law with that in mind.
First year anything is a risk as you point out. I would feel more comfortable going with a first year Japanese model over American. Just a preference I hold. My Father got burned on his 99 JGC (multiple problems, difficult time getting dealer to admit to them) and this has significantly influenced my choices.
I think the Tahoes/Yukons are not as bad as some would lead the readers to believe over here. I almost went with one given the unmatched towing ability. They ride nice and use a long time favorite motor. Reliability? I dont know for sure but I dont hear many complaints with the newer models.
I agree with brillmtb: "Take it from me. DONT MESS WITH THE SEQUOIA OWNERS. As you are finding out, they hate anything that even resembles something critical of the Sequoia."
Toyota owners are a fiercly loyal lot (not necessarily a bad thing - by the way I have continuously owned Toyotas since 1975 so I can criticize if I want to!). However there is no doubt that Toyota is a vain snobby company. I have posted before about my aggravation about Toyotas pricing policies. Everything is a base model and you have to option virtually every feature most buyers demand. As a very good example consider that the Lexus GS430 comes w/o leather! How many GS430s (a $50K+ car) are sold w/o leather? Ditto the Land Cruiser.
However I have on several previous occaisions (4 to be exact) put up with the arrogance of Toyota to buy one anyway because of the quality of the vehicle compared to the competition. Toyota's enviable reputation for quality indeed is worthy of buyer loyalty!
However that alone is not enough to justify the fierce loyalty SQ owners are demonstrating for any criticism directed their way, as pointed out by brillmtb. May I suggest the real reason!! Whenever anyone overpays for a car (MSRP is overpaying) they must justify their decision all the more strongly. Particularly when the prices start to drop and their overpayment becomes painfully obvious. Most SQ owners participating in this forum bought early and thus paid a premium.
Bottom line: the more you paid (particularly the closer to MSRP you paid) the more you defend your position.
Almost all new vehicles are over priced and no one should pay MSRP and think this is a good price.
Agreed that some want to have now, are rich enough that it doesnt matter.
What keeps the prices up is the demand...period. Everything new seems to draw initial interest and demand then things cool down after the first anxious people buy and the prices fall.
I dont think this is unique to the Acura and Toyota product lines.
We are in the market for a third vehicle and have looked at a lot of vehicles! We ended up with another choice.
Bottom line I did not like the SQ the best. We currently own a '99 EB Expedition; that has been virtually trouble-free by the way. I do not see enough differences between the two to justify giving up a fully paid for vehicle to buy an overpriced one. To compare to the Eddie Baurer package one must buy a Limited (with additional extras to boot!) with its rediculously ugly metal dash!
Put the two vehicle side-by-side today (2001 vrs 2001) and compare features there is a lot of things I favor with each. I would probably give the SQ the edge, but I can't get over the hideous dash of the Limited.
Our choice the Acura MDX!! For us a far superior choice to the SQ. We had to pay MSRP (but with many dealer extras thrown in free) for the MDX so we too will probably fiercly defend it. But we got the vehicle we wanted for what we believe to be a good price in today's market
The dealers in Seattle are buying 4*4 limited in Canada for invoice and selling them at 1k to 2k below msrp. The Bellevue dealership has 4 canadian limited's on his lot. Your auction buyer would make more money doing that. Bob H
We wouldn't put customers through that. There are too many legal questions about those Canadian trucks. I did work at one dealership who bought Canadian Siennas but that store was not very concerned about keeping long term customers.
brillmtb and msu79gt82 and rruck1 have redeemed this chat room. Objective view points, thank you guys. We all agree that the Sequoia is a nice truck and that Toyota spells quality. It's just a matter of getting a good deal or not. Actually, in today's market, I don't think you can go wrong with any of the full-size SUVs. I think everyone's quality is solid; it is just a matter of budget, taste and need.
Just to defend the Sequoia, it was named SUV of the Year by SUV Magazine. It nudged out the Acura MDX and Yukon Denali. I think the other entrants were the Hyundai Sante Fe, Ford Escape, Oldsmobile Bravada, Subaru Forester and others, but nothing else really stuck out. The MDX and Denali tied for best interior.
msu79gt82 ... Good luck with the MDX. I looked at one, too ... very nice! I like the fact everything is included, and the interior is beautiful. However, from the back, it looks too much like a mini-van. I like the fact that the Sequoia, Yukon and Tahoe look like trucks. But you got yourself a nice SUV!
rruck1 - I won't be buying the Escalade either ... NOT ENOUGH MONEY! Dreeeeeeaaaaaammmmmm!!!!!
Own both an MDX and a Seq 2wd Ltd. Probably one of only a handful who do (see #865).
Much to my chagrin, my wife often points out how superior us men are at comparison shopping and how we always know best (I bought the Acura on pure faith. She test drove the Seq and had to have it).
"Oh darling" she snorts sarcastically "But Acura is a luxury make isn't it ? But why doesn't your MDX have those luxury features such as running boards to help my kids and my little 5'2'' frame into the vehicle like the Seq has ? And those little luxury touches such as power mirrors, so that you can park in the garage without knocking down the walls of the house. And what happened to the power rear window on the MDX ? You know that's luxury for me when I can throw my gym bag or some light shopping into the back without continuously having to open the entire door, dear.
So tell me darling, what is it that's so luxurious about your MDX ? Is it the superior sound proofing and ride ?"
"Er, no." I admit, thinking about the wind noise from the roof rack and the generally higher level of road noise. "It's not the ride dear. Your Seq really is very, very comfortable."
"Maybe it's the number of cup holders, then ?"
"Er, no dear. There's 10 in the Sep and the same in the MDX."
"Then it must be the roominess ?"
"No, it's not that dear, the Seq has more room" I admit. After all it can seat 8 as opposed to seven in the MDX.
"Then it's got to be the MDX's better third seat. Sure'ly that's it darling."
"Er, definitely not dear."
"I know. I've got the answer. It's the 4WD and the fact you can take it out into the wilderness without worrying. Why Acura were so thoughtful to give you front mud guards and who cares if they didn't bother with the rear ones. Stone chips on the paint work will only be a minor nuisance. And of course, they've designed the MDX so well, that if you have a puncture some where out there, then the space-saver spare is guaranteed to get you back. But darling I don't understand why the Seq has a full size spare and why does it come with four mud flaps. Is all that really necessary ?'
"Honey, I'm afraid all the reports I've read say that only light off-roading is recommended with my MDX. In fact, most of them tell you to stick to the highway. So it's not that dear."
"Then maybe luxury means that you have more safety in an MDX, darling. Doesn't your MDX come with Traction Control, VSC, Curtain Airbags and Day Time Running Lights like my Seq ?"
"No dearie, I'm afraid it doesn't."
"Maybe it weighs more darling. That would be an advantage in an accident with another car, wouldn't it sweetie ?"
"No. It doesn't weigh more dear."
"Well maybe luxury means the MDX can tow more and has more horse power and torque darling ?'
"Er, no I don't think so dear."
"Yes, I think I've nailed it. You husbands are always worried about repair costs. Especially when it comes to the transmission and engine. That must be it. Acura must give you a better power/train warranty than Toyota. after all it's a luxury make. The quality has to be better doesn't it ?"
"Er, sorry dear. The MDX power/train warranty is 4 yr/50,000 miles whilst the Seq is 6yr/60,000 miles."
"Well maybe luxury is being able to fold the seats down so that you can get a 4' x 8' piece of plywood home that you can't in the Seq. darling."
"No dearie, for the one time in 3 years that we need to, we can easily get a 4' x 8' piece of plywood into the Seq. even without taking the seats out."
"So it's got to be the superior paint work darling. Doesn't the MDX look fabulous when it's waxed."
"No dear that's a bit of a sore point and I don't want to talk about it (water stain marks from "leaky" side mirrors that take days to dry up are a bit of a nuisance. Thank goodness I live in san Diego where it doesn't rain too often).
"Then maybe, the leather seating is a better grade and so is the carpeting ?'
"No dear. You know as well as I do that my MDX has vinyl on the third seat whilst your Seq has leather. But we are getting closer sweetie."
"Oh for Pete's sake darling. Tell me what it is. Put me out of my misery and just tell me what makes your MDX a luxury vehicle."
"Er... it's, er....it's the trim inserts in the dash and the doors. I know they're plastic dear. But they really do look like wood !"
Comments
Has anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area managed to find
a dealer willing to sell the Sequoia at anything below MSRP.
Seems to me a bit steep to be paying 5-8K over the rival
competition. I'm looking for a 4x4 SR5, not fully loaded though.
So far been through : Toyota Vallejo, Toyota Fremont,Toyota Oakland,Toyota Walnut Creek ....
Like all things the vehicle is new, so what can i expect - if
anyone has made good deals out there let me know and with
who - i'd really appreciate it.
thanks
Brian
http://www.edmunds.com/chat/cartalk022001.html?id=hphall2.cartalk2
I've looked and looked and pondered and pondered and I can't see spending the extra money. All the SR5 Sequoias I've looked at are right around $37,000-$40,000.
There's nothing wrong with a Tahoe. Nothing! Read Automobile Magazine's 4 x 4 Field Guide, it gives the Tahoe a great review. It even says that "it is an excellent choice."
The Sequoia is nice but you also get a lot for a $32,000 Tahoe.
It also depends on what you need it for. Do you need it for serious towing? There's quite a difference between the two, as in 2,200 lbs.
Plus, the Tahoe has less plastic on the outside and seems a lot more solid.
Sure, the Sequoia rides and handles a little bit better, but not much. If you have the extra cash and are willing to spend it on the Toyota quality, then do it. Talking to Toyota owners, they're great vehicles.
But just to let you know, my friend leased a Tahoe and absolutely loved it. He just got out of the lease and right back into another Tahoe. He strongly recommended it to me.
I've looked at a fully-loaded Tahoe for $36,000.
Good luck!
And for movan, it's ludicrous to compare the 2002 Escalade and the Sequoia. It's not even close. You're silly to think the Sequoia is actually equal or better. I'm laughing so hard it's hard to even continue this message ... Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
Seriously though, joerafferty has been *searching* for the perfect SUV - low cost being the xfactor. Time and time again he has referenced the Tahoe as being a "good alternative" to the SEQ... Go ahead, make that purchase of your beloved Tahoe. You know it is the wrong decision otherwise you would have done it by now.. Procrastinate for as long as you like, finally after everything is said and done, you will buy that Sequoia even if it kills you :-)
wanna bet ?
1) Ya get what you pay for.
2) ....Refund
Then it's a Sequoia, okay.
No refund
Maybe a Tahoe
Owe money
A used 1986 Yugo
We're waiting on our taxes and this killer loan sale from my Credit Union in March.
I may wind up doing all this research for nothing.
But, hey, it's all been fun ... I think?
The biggest issue has been on the ticking/ clicking noise owners have found. This noise is more an annoyance than a problem hazard. Yes, it is not a good thing to have the engine tick endlessly, and I can understand how an owner feels about this. But, more interesting observation is that many of us think that Toyota is "invincible" and cannot make a *bad* product (I am not saying the SEQ is a bad product), hence at every opportunity, owners will complain of ne thing or the other.
I started on this board complaining about the radio antenna on the SEQ I purchased, and quickly realised that it is nothing more than aesthetics. There could be far worse problem than a simple radio antenna not retracting when I switch from radio to Tape or CD.
I am not saying you should plough your hard-earned $$ on this vehicle, just letting you know that there are both good stories and bad stories about every vehicle. The difference, imo, is that your Toyota product will, more often than not, last you much longer and will give you many years of reliability than most of its competition. The price you pay may be steep, though...
Your choice... I made mine and bought the SEQ and loves it, ticking or not, vibration or not...
I am a positive person, and prefer to look at the many good things in the vehicle w/out focusing endlessly on the *wrong* things... Call me an eternal optimist :-)!
Also, in reference to the Sequoia "desing flaw" about the buffeting noise. This happens with all large vehicles, it bothers me so much that I lock out the window function while I'm on the hwy. It is kind of neat to open that back window, some noise but tolerable (unless you have a tractor-trailer bearing down on you).
My take is this:
Each Expy XLT probably cost no more than $9K tops from factory. The dealer buys it at ca. $18K tops (lots of dealer incentives, volume discount, dealer holdbacks, rebates,...). Now, we the [non-permissible content removed] buyers walk in and they offer an $8,000 discount on the XLT, for a grand total of $25K for the vehicle. See how much profit the dealer is holding ? Yeah ! The profit is there, alright, otherwise the dealership and Ford would be out of business a long time ago.
Ditto for Toyota and other car makers....
For the SEQ, I'd probably guess at $15K tops from Toyota. Dealer buys at $24K, and the [non-permissible content removed] buyer walks out with a $37K bill and says "Hooray, I got a $2500 off MSRP", like the dealership lost a dime on the deal...
I once saw a $10K off of 2000 TLC in a local paper here in San Diego. Whereas the SEQ had no incentive listed in the ad. Now, if you calculate that the rebate/discount would bring the vehicle down to a *manageable* $45K+ price tag, this may make the decision to buy that 4WD SEQ Limited, a tad difficult ! whatdayathink of that ?
The whole point of this is a reality check when you worry about how much you are willing to pay for a vehicle. Regardless of what you paid, you are still losing the game, it is simply a matter of "how much are you willing to lose?"
Thanks!
Internet Sales
Tuscaloosa Toyota
877-470-2262 (Toll Free)
He's the guy that emailed with the quote.
i have nothing but utmost respect for the sales people on this forum - cliffy1 and dianne - for example. they are people who have integrity often not synonimous with car sales people. i do not intend to bash them for making a profit; they deserve to.
i make a distinction b/w the dealer and the sales people. the profits of the dealership does not necessarily translate to the $$ made by sales, since each sales person has parts of his/her income coming from the actual sales he/she made, whereas the dealer gets to keep profits from every single deal made by any of its sales force.
there is a difference as i am sure you know....
Say, didn't the original Model T have a 100% real wood dash? Man, were they living it up......8^)
It's really got cloth inserts in the doors and no heated seats. It really doesn't look bad at all, but for someone wanting the smooth doorsides, the company we use to upgrade seats to leather (when there are no side airbags) can easily re-do the doorsides as well to match.
Photos up at the sequoiasolutions.com website to follow in a post I will entitle PM package. This particular car is silver sky.
Dianne
God forbid anyone mentioned the Escalade has 345 HP (105 more than the Sequoia), 380 lb-ft of torque (65 more than the Sequoia), 8,500 lb. of towing capacity (2,000 more than the Sequoia), an 11-speaker Bose stereo system with a 6-CD in-dash player, the Ultrasonic Rear Parking Assist, the On Star system ...
I mean I could go on and on.
The only thing I saw in my mirror was you, as I was blowing by you on the highway. Bye, see ya!
Give me a break, if I had $50,000 to spend I would race to my nearest Cadillac dealer and plunk it right down on an Escalade. I wouldn't even consider a Sequoia, Tahoe or Yukon.
Unfortunately, I don't.
I'm done debating. No more, please, it's too tiring.
"the company we use to upgrade seats to leather (when there are no side airbags)"
Are you allowed to put AM leather on seats with airbags? Somehow I'm betting that the government says no.
Well he was sold ( it took a while he was a diehard. buy American type) So he tried to sell his Caddy in June of 2000 , not yet a year old, ...well he had no offer a above $36,000. for two months, needless to say he was very upset. Then finally he just traded in on a 2000 T.L.C. for $33,500. Today he does not get to drive the T.L.C. much, his wife won't let it out of her hands, unlike the Caddy wich his wife hated the Escalade handled.. He stated " He_l will freeze over before I ever buy a Caddy again..!!!
This is from a former GM believer...!! I would take a loaded limited Sequoia over a Escalade any day of the week, so will my friend...By the way I sold a LX 470 for $1,500 less than what I bought it for a year later...(long story) That will never in a 1000 years happen with any year Caddy....!~!
The company we use to upgrade to leather (WHEN THERE ARE NO SIDE AIRBAGS)
.
Listen, the Sequoia is a great SUV. But we're talking about apples and oranges here.
And then you mentioned a Land Cruiser????? Sequoia or Land Cruiser?????
I'm done chatting!!!!! See you folks later. I'm switching over to the Tahoe/Yukon chat room.
P.S. - This morning on the Today Show a car review magazine rated the Chevy Suburban as the best SUV for resale value. I'm pretty sure that's a GM, right? So chew on that!!!!!
Do like the rest of us. Just sit back and watch them speak.
While I think the Sequoia is a good vehicle it is not a great one for my needs but trying to debate things on this board is nothing short of impossible.
Here in FL I saw an add for 10K off a Land Cruiser as well. Problem was that after gold package and crazy add-ons, the sticker was $65K, it was supposedly a bargain at $55,000. Bottom line is there is no such thing as a $45,000 Land Cruiser, unless you jump in the time machine and go back 5 years. And as far as auto maker profit, what is your point? When I make the decision to purchase anything from a carrot, to a car, to a house, I don't even consider what it costs the seller to produce that product. I don't even think about it. I simply evaluate the product, look at my finances, and evaluate whether the transaction makes good business sense to me at the time. According to your logic, perhaps I should buy a Civic for $13,000 because it costs Honda $11,000 to build it and market it. Plus, I don't even mind dealers holding firm on the MSRP (although I didn't pay sticker). I've walked out of many more dealerships without a purchase than I have had with a purchase. Dealerships are perhaps the most glaring example of the most important economic principle (except for wall street), supply and demand.
Joe Rafferty,
I saw that Today piece as well about the Suburban holding good value and I was perplexed by the statement. Every year in spring, you can buy Tahoes and Subs all day long either near Invoice or even below invoice. Imagine if you had to have the 2001 Tahoe when it first came out and you paid MSRP. Then two years later, a buyer could buy a 2003 for as much as you want for your used one. And here's another thought, why can you buy Expy's and Tahoes at invoice right now. Perhaps because they built too many of them, they weren't built very well, and the public is getting tired of quality/resale issues. Did you notice the Suburban commercial that came on after that segment? I know, I know, spoken like a true Sequoia homer.
As far as the Seqoia Luxury or not question goes, I have a close friend who owns both an Expy Eddie Bauer and a 2001 Navigator. He flat out agrees that the Sequoia is nicer in every category, except the much noted horsepower category. I've noted many squeaks and quality issues in his 3 month old Navigator, and it cost over $10,000 more. I don't normally "rub it in", but I had to this time.
For the people buying Tahoe & Yukon - if this is your preference and it fits into your budget better, then you are making the right choice. Choice is personal after all. Every make and model has horror stories posted about them, some more than others, none are perfect.
brillmtb. Not all Sequoia owners are fanatics, but I will admit some do get a tad defensive. I would attribute some of the defensiveness to first year jitters. We all want to believe in Toyota quality even though we bought these beasts in the first model year. My guess is that you have a Montero? Sweet. I had an 85 Montero Sport and an 89 Raider. I probably would have gone with the Montero Limited, but I needed a little more room.
joerafferty, You are right - The Caddy is much plusher and probably defines luxury in this class. I'm not sure I would jump at it (even if I had the cash) as GM has a lot to prove to me in terms of build quality. I had a bad GM experience a few years ago and don't want to get burned by them again.
I think that is nuts, but he already has it sold for a tidy profit. I think he actually sold it for more than the last Limited I sold new. Somebody out there thinks a 6000 mile used Sequoia Limited that he can take home today is worth nearly the sticker price of a new one that he must wait for.
I'm not posting this message to defend this. Nor and I saying discounts can't be had. What I am saying is that in this region, demand for the 4x4 Limited is extremely high and prices reflect this and probably will for quite some time. The SR5 is not in the same category around these parts but even they aren't too far off.
If anybody is unhappy with their Limited 4x4 and want to get rid of it quickly, ask the used car manager at your dealership if he could take it to Manheim for a cut of the deal.
The company we use to upgrade to leather (WHEN THERE ARE NO SIDE AIRBAGS)"
Dianne, I hate to be a stickler, but you statement is ambigious and I can't read tone and
body language over the net (although in truth I can imagine what kind of tone "I said it right there" might possibly be)
As to the ambiguity...someone may then ask....
"Oh...well than what company do you use when you DO have side airbags?"
I guess it may be easier for me to just make the
following statement....
Side airbags and aftermarket leather are not possible at the same time.
And if that is wrong, then I'll be corrected.
I do believe (want to believe) that Toyotas built in the US are close to the same quality as thier established Japanese models. I helped buy a Toyota for my mother-in-law with that in mind.
First year anything is a risk as you point out. I would feel more comfortable going with a first year Japanese model over American. Just a preference I hold. My Father got burned on his 99 JGC (multiple problems, difficult time getting dealer to admit to them) and this has significantly influenced my choices.
I think the Tahoes/Yukons are not as bad as some would lead the readers to believe over here. I almost went with one given the unmatched towing ability. They ride nice and use a long time favorite motor. Reliability? I dont know for sure but I dont hear many complaints with the newer models.
"Take it from me. DONT MESS WITH THE SEQUOIA OWNERS. As you are finding out, they hate anything that even resembles something critical of the Sequoia."
Toyota owners are a fiercly loyal lot (not necessarily a bad thing - by the way I have continuously owned Toyotas since 1975 so I can criticize if I want to!). However there is no doubt that Toyota is a vain snobby company. I have posted before about my aggravation about Toyotas pricing policies. Everything is a base model and you have to option virtually every feature most buyers demand. As a very good example consider that the Lexus GS430 comes w/o leather! How many GS430s (a $50K+ car) are sold w/o leather? Ditto the Land Cruiser.
However I have on several previous occaisions (4 to be exact) put up with the arrogance of Toyota to buy one anyway because of the quality of the vehicle compared to the competition. Toyota's enviable reputation for quality indeed is worthy of buyer loyalty!
However that alone is not enough to justify the fierce loyalty SQ owners are demonstrating for any criticism directed their way, as pointed out by brillmtb. May I suggest the real reason!! Whenever anyone overpays for a car (MSRP is overpaying) they must justify their decision all the more strongly. Particularly when the prices start to drop and their overpayment becomes painfully obvious. Most SQ owners participating in this forum bought early and thus paid a premium.
Bottom line: the more you paid (particularly the closer to MSRP you paid) the more you defend your position.
Agreed that some want to have now, are rich enough that it doesnt matter.
What keeps the prices up is the demand...period. Everything new seems to draw initial interest and demand then things cool down after the first anxious people buy and the prices fall.
I dont think this is unique to the Acura and Toyota product lines.
Bottom line I did not like the SQ the best. We currently own a '99 EB Expedition; that has been virtually trouble-free by the way. I do not see enough differences between the two to justify giving up a fully paid for vehicle to buy an overpriced one. To compare to the Eddie Baurer package one must buy a Limited (with additional extras to boot!) with its rediculously ugly metal dash!
Put the two vehicle side-by-side today (2001 vrs 2001) and compare features there is a lot of things I favor with each. I would probably give the SQ the edge, but I can't get over the hideous dash of the Limited.
Our choice the Acura MDX!! For us a far superior choice to the SQ. We had to pay MSRP (but with many dealer extras thrown in free) for the MDX so we too will probably fiercly defend it. But we got the vehicle we wanted for what we believe to be a good price in today's market
::raising eyebrow, tapping foot::
We all agree that the Sequoia is a nice truck and that Toyota spells quality. It's just a matter of getting a good deal or not.
Actually, in today's market, I don't think you can go wrong with any of the full-size SUVs. I think everyone's quality is solid; it is just a matter of budget, taste and need.
Just to defend the Sequoia, it was named SUV of the Year by SUV Magazine. It nudged out the Acura MDX and Yukon Denali. I think the other entrants were the Hyundai Sante Fe, Ford Escape, Oldsmobile Bravada, Subaru Forester and others, but nothing else really stuck out.
The MDX and Denali tied for best interior.
msu79gt82 ... Good luck with the MDX. I looked at one, too ... very nice! I like the fact everything is included, and the interior is beautiful. However, from the back, it looks too much like a mini-van. I like the fact that the Sequoia, Yukon and Tahoe look like trucks.
But you got yourself a nice SUV!
rruck1 - I won't be buying the Escalade either ... NOT ENOUGH MONEY! Dreeeeeeaaaaaammmmmm!!!!!
Own both an MDX and a Seq 2wd Ltd. Probably one of only a handful who do (see #865).
Much to my chagrin, my wife often points out how superior us men are at comparison shopping and how we always know best (I bought the Acura on pure faith. She test drove the Seq and had to have it).
"Oh darling" she snorts sarcastically "But Acura is a luxury make isn't it ? But why doesn't your MDX have those luxury features such as running boards to help my kids and my little 5'2'' frame into the vehicle like the Seq has ? And those little luxury touches such as power mirrors, so that you can park in the garage without knocking down the walls of the house. And what happened to the power rear window on the MDX ? You know that's luxury for me when I can throw my gym bag or some light shopping into the back without continuously having to open the entire door, dear.
So tell me darling, what is it that's so luxurious about your MDX ?
Is it the superior sound proofing and ride ?"
"Er, no." I admit, thinking about the wind noise from the roof rack and the generally higher level of road noise. "It's not the ride dear. Your Seq really is very, very comfortable."
"Maybe it's the number of cup holders, then ?"
"Er, no dear. There's 10 in the Sep and the same in the MDX."
"Then it must be the roominess ?"
"No, it's not that dear, the Seq has more room" I admit. After all it can seat 8 as opposed to seven in the MDX.
"Then it's got to be the MDX's better third seat. Sure'ly that's it darling."
"Er, definitely not dear."
"I know. I've got the answer. It's the 4WD and the fact you can take it out into the wilderness without worrying. Why Acura were so thoughtful to give you front mud guards and who cares if they didn't bother with the rear ones. Stone chips on the paint work will only be a minor nuisance. And of course, they've designed the MDX so well, that if you have a puncture some where out there, then the space-saver spare is guaranteed to get you back. But darling I don't understand why the Seq has a full size spare and why does it come with four mud flaps. Is all that really necessary ?'
"Honey, I'm afraid all the reports I've read say that only light off-roading is recommended with my MDX. In fact, most of them tell you to stick to the highway. So it's not that dear."
"Then maybe luxury means that you have more safety in an MDX, darling. Doesn't your MDX come with Traction Control, VSC, Curtain Airbags and Day Time Running Lights like my Seq ?"
"No dearie, I'm afraid it doesn't."
"Maybe it weighs more darling. That would be an advantage in an accident with another car, wouldn't it sweetie ?"
"No. It doesn't weigh more dear."
"Well maybe luxury means the MDX can tow more and has more horse power and torque darling ?'
"Er, no I don't think so dear."
"Yes, I think I've nailed it. You husbands are always worried about repair costs. Especially when it comes to the transmission and engine. That must be it. Acura must give you a better power/train warranty than Toyota. after all it's a luxury make. The quality has to be better doesn't it ?"
"Er, sorry dear. The MDX power/train warranty is 4 yr/50,000 miles whilst the Seq is 6yr/60,000 miles."
"Well maybe luxury is being able to fold the seats down so that you can get a 4' x 8' piece of plywood home that you can't in the Seq. darling."
"No dearie, for the one time in 3 years that we need to, we can easily get a 4' x 8' piece of plywood into the Seq. even without taking the seats out."
"So it's got to be the superior paint work darling. Doesn't the MDX look fabulous when it's waxed."
"No dear that's a bit of a sore point and I don't want to talk about it (water stain marks from "leaky" side mirrors that take days to dry up are a bit of a nuisance. Thank goodness I live in san Diego where it doesn't rain too often).
"Then maybe, the leather seating is a better grade and so is the carpeting ?'
"No dear. You know as well as I do that my MDX has vinyl on the third seat whilst your Seq has leather. But we are getting closer sweetie."
"Oh for Pete's sake darling. Tell me what it is. Put me out of my misery and just tell me what makes your MDX a luxury vehicle."
"Er... it's, er....it's the trim inserts in the dash and the doors. I know they're plastic dear. But they really do look like wood !"