You refuse to answer the question: "Does the torque % change between front and rear or side to side"? If it does, then it is similar to the Sequoia in that there would be milliseconds delay for this to happen. If it does not change between the wheels then it is an inferior system that won't accomodate different power needs at different wheels. Answer please.
Since the finest SUV's (offroad ones) use 4wd maybe that's why the Sequoia is a little more money- they didn't cheap out on the 4wd system.
I agree that it's unlikely that we will do any serious offroading with our vehicles, but the point is we can if we want to.
You are probably right about the actual selling price of a Sequoia. That's what happens with supply and demand. I think you should be careful always pointing that out to us. To me it says we have the more desirable vehicle otherwise your monster would be selling for more as well.
I've never used chains as I have the 4wd but from the little I know I believe they go on all 4 wheels so that they have equal traction. On only 2 wheels could be dangerous. Same holds true for Blizzak type tires.
714cut: I've answered several times but you appear to be having difficuly grasping the concept. In AWD, a certain % of power is "guaranteed" to the front wheels. If slippage does occur (which is far less likely than a vehicle with a 0/100% distribution of torque) than yes, additional torque can and will be transferred to the wheels that aren't slipping.
Most people grasp the benefits of the approach. You appear to not be able to grasp the concept. You might want to consider chatting with a Audi, Volvo, Subaru, MB, BMW or maybe even a GM dealer.
While I appreciate your view "You are probably right about the actual selling price of a Sequoia. That's what happens with supply and demand. I think you should be careful always pointing that out to us. To me it says we have the more desirable vehicle otherwise your monster would be selling for more as well."
Another way to interpret the higher sales #s of the GM compared to the Toyota, is that the more desirable vehicle is bought by people not so easily swayed by marketing and quality hype and more interested in getting power, features and value from the vehicle they choose:)
I have an SR5 and on page 12 (approx) it details how to program the door locks, basically there are 4 options:
1- lock the doors when you move the shifter from Park 2- lock doors when you hit 12mph 3- unlock doors when drivers door is opened (and key is in acc or removed). and 4- unlock doors when shifter is returned to park. You program the door by doing a few steps that are listed in the owners manual. Mine are currently on #1 and that is it, I want to change it to numbers 2 and 4. But no matter how many times I repeat the procedure I cannot get it to program. Anyone else have any problems or luck in changing the settings?
Also, on the keyless entry I guess it can be changed from 2 pushes on the unlock to get all doors open to just 1 push. The owners manual states to call dealer, before I do that (since they are closed), has anyone had any luck with that? Thanks
Well, there goes your credibility of never taking personal shots at people. Thanks for the insult.
Last time I checked neither Volvo nor Audi made a proper SUV, although they do make outstanding vehicles (station wagons). Lets see, all of the small on road station wagons and suv's use awd. All of the serious vehicles and world class benchmarking suv's use 4wd. Gee let me think about what I want in my full size SUV.
I don't claim to be an expert on 4wd systems, nor do I care to be. I do understand the basic concept in spite of your comments and finally you answered my question.
So tell me what is the advantage of the denali system if there is wheel slip and more power has to be transferred? Won't they do it in roughly the same amount of time? Even if there was no power to the front wheels all the time in the Sequoia there would be in the millisecond when slippage was detected.
Besides, the Sequoia has skid and traction control, while your monster does not.
Given your feelings about your monster, I'm sure you'd be arguing about the superiority of 4wd vs. awd if you had 4wd and the Sequoia awd.
Me and my wife love it! Grandpa, Dad, both retired Ford folks and I get a great deal on FMC products but couldn't pass up the build quality on the Seq. It's the little things like grab handles that don't budge, door panels materials that are seamless, covers on seat back hinges that are not made of the same quality as my son's McD's Happy Meal toys, Center console that again doesn't budge, again plastic clips to keep seat belts up against cargo hold when not in use, vinyl covering Four-Wheel low engagement lever. After 16 (legal) yrs of driving, I know fit/finish. It's the little things that are a noticeable to me when new, to others after 30-40k miles when they break, squeak, rattle etc. If this is the size of vehicle your after, (we've three children) just close your eyes and listen, feel, grab and you'll understand why were so very happy with this vehicle. It is the very best in it's class. Enjoy whatever vehicle you choose, but this is one very happy Seq. owner that is telling you, you won't be dissapointed! vr, shawn
714cut: from what statement of mine did you come to the following conclusion "Thanks for the insult."?
I've tried multiple times to explain the difference of awd vs 4wd. And you still can't seem to grasp it based on your repeating the same question. Therefore I directed you to speak to people more expert than myself on the subject of awd such as dealerships selling awd vehicles. You consider that an insult? My goodness, you're awful sensitive.
What does the point of Volvo or Audi not making suvs have to do with the performance of awd vs 4wd? If you're interested in a vehicle with the best handling characteristics for on-road performance, an awd vehicle will always be better than a vehicle with 4wd that must transfer power after slippage has occurred.
A vehicle that can lock its center differential or has limited slip differentials at the rear front or center or any combination will perform better off-road than a vehicle without them although the Sequoia makes a good technical argument for using electronics instead of mechanics to modulate torque transfer. Time will tell which system is better however I've not seen any serious off-road machine that would employ a system solely dependent on the electronic transfer of torque with an entirely open differential setup. Maybe its the better arrangement, maybe its not. But Toyota is the only manufacturer deploying this arrangment.
If you're suggesting Toyota must be right and a dozen other manufacturers must all be wrong with their proven systems, I would prefer to put my trust in the proven systems until proof is provided that an entirely different arrangement is better.
pschreck: I get my information from the same sources on the Sequoia as all of you get... right here on the internet. And I have to say Toyota has not provided alot of technical details, off-road perfomance measures, on-road performance measures on their system by which to make much judgement. Therefore if you have some source of data that can provide facts that suggest something I have stated about the system is inaccurate, I would welcome the opportunity to review it.
Hmm I don't see a lot of Denalis sold in Australia and Sub-Saharan Africa where std roads are what we would consider to be off-road trails. So don't go knocking Toyota for their off-road prowess.
Heatwave, I think you rely on the internet information, marketing material, and theoreticals more than actual proven real world tests, at least in the arguement here.
That's all I'm asking of you. Show me where it says that there no torque being delivered to the front wheels of the Sequoia unless the rear is slipping.
paisan: I don't think you'll find many Sequoia operating in the jungle or the desert. Toyota's traditional systems of limited slip diffs combined with viscous center couplings are world renown.
That doesn't mean that a new system using open diffs and electronics to brake slipping wheels, by default, is the new standard for providing traction just because it came from Toyota. Consider me a doubting Thomas until a new design has some data to support its claims.
pschreck: That's all I'm asking of you. Show me where it says that there is torque being delivered to the front wheels of the Sequoia before the rear is slipping.
Is on you Heatwave, you must prove that it does not have power to the front, IMHO. In my comments about the TLC, I was refuting your comments about Toyota not being a world class off-road vehicle manufacturer.
I am thinking of buying a 2002 4x4 Toyota Tundra SR5 V8 XCab with ABS,Limited Slip Diff and other options or get a 4x2 with the LSD and offroad package.
I read in the FAQ posts on Tundra solutions that the 4x4 system on the Tundra is different than what is on the Sequoia and Land Cruiser. You can't be in 4x4 mode on dry pavement with the Tundra unlike the Sequoia and Land Cruiser. My fear is that the wife will drive the Tundra in 4x4 mode on dry pavement.
Questions: Has the Tundra 4x4 system changed on the 2002 model now that Toyota will add in the limited slip diff?
Would it be better to get the 4x2 with LSD and offroad package?
I plan to go offroad on trails at least 4 times a year maybe more. I live in sunny Southern California.
Thanks for the info and yes I know this is not the Tundra board but Cliffy is usually on here(4x4 expert) and we are all Toyota family.
paisan: Not to get in a pissing contest but I never made any such claim regarding Toyota as a manufacturer "In my comments about the TLC, I was refuting your comments about Toyota not being a world class off-road vehicle manufacturer."
If you believe I did make such a claim, please point it out so that I can retract it, otherwise its possible you misinterpreted my remarks.
IMHO, I believe its Toyota's responsibility to let their Sequoia owner's and prospective owners know if power is directed to the front wheels at all times. Strange how all other manufacturers believe this type of information is important to their consumers as they make it readily available and yet Toyota keeps the facts from consumers.
I missed some Sequoias in your previous posts Heatwave. Thought you were making a sweeping statement about Toyota in general. But I still stand that you need to prove that there is not power to the fronts, not the other way around.
that the Sequoia is ONLY made in N. America ? and nowhere else ? so don't expect to see the Sequoia on the trails in the sahara desert, or other places with very rugged terrains, Just Yet ! And include the fact that the Sequoia is only in its second year of production.....
But we all know that the Sequoia uses the exact same drivetrain as the legendary LC (except for the availability of the 2WD mode in the Seq), so what would a conjecture of the Seq's off-road prowress be if its antecedent has such a legenday and undisputed off-road prowress ???
Answer: It will kick the Denali's *** off-road, hands down ! so you can theorize all you wish about the denali awd versus the seq's 4wd, the simple fact of the matter is this: the Seq will outfox the Denali if and when both ever venture off road, anyday, anytime.... that, imo, is what irks you heatwave, you just can't stomach this simple fact, can you ? So you try your darnest best to come up with all kinds of information that proves you right, while muddling the discussion with the addition of Subaru's MBZ, etc... just to get us all confused... The truth is out there and it will set you free, you just gotta believe !!!
Lets make sure I understand you here. Even though the Sequoia and Land Cruiser have the same 4WD systems with the exception of the availability of a 2WD mode on the Sequoia, you still believe the Sequoia is primarily a RWD but the Land Cruiser falls into the category of full time 4WD? Ummm... OK.
I just called Toyota at 800-331-4331 and asked about the Active TRAC System. The answer was YES, the Sequoia does provide power to all four wheels at all times when Active TRAC is engaged. They said to have you call them with your questions if you dare.
The TLC we get here is NOT the same as the ones found overseas.
The TLC found overseas is a different model than the TLC found here. The overseas models are similar to the FZJ80 model that was discontinued here a few years ago. One major difference is that the FZJ80 had a solid front axle.
The Land Cruiser in the US comes with a locking viscous liq center diff. Overseas they come with a rear locking diff as well. This offers a substantially greater traction both on road with the viscous liq ctr diff and substantially greater traction off-road with the locking center diff offered in the LC. The Sequoia offers neither the locking visc liq ctr diff, or the locking rear diff offered overseas.
Therefore I'm not sure why you're describing the LC's 4wd system as the same as a Sequoia's.
Also I sent an email on March 20 to the Toyota's National Customer Assistance Center, it asked
"When the Sequoia is operating in full-time 4wd what is the minimum distribution of power from front to rear in % of torque. Your assistance would be greatly appreciated."
I have not yet received a reply from Toyota.
The issue is not if there is any power being delivered to the front wheels but what is the minimum that the design of the system will ensure is delivered to front wheels under all circumstances. That is the question that manufacturers of AWD systems provide as routine information. If the system allows the front wheels to drop to 0% torque under any circumstances than by most engineers definitions this system would not be defined as AWD. It is neither a bad or good thing but an apt description of the type of drivetrain propelling that vehicle.
AWD provides a minimum torque "guaranteed" to the front wheels under all circumstances and under a system that can be operated at all speeds on all road conditions.
A permanent 4wd system utilizes slippage to move traction to wheels that are not slipping but maintains no minimum of torque to all wheels at all times. This system can be operated at all speeds on all road conditions.
A part-time 4wd system maintains a minimum amount of torque to all wheels at all times but can only be operated off-road or in wet road conditions.
Its simply been my contention from the start that the Sequoia system is not awd and that for on-road performance AWD is a preferable drivetrain to permanent 4wd.
oac3: after you have let your testosterone settle back to normal levels would you mind sharing the last time you ran your Sequoia on the Baja 1000 or when you've penciled it into you calendar for a future run? I'd be interested in how you felt your Sequoia performed under those conditions (that he-man dream you had planned for this evening taking your Sequoia on a mental African safari doesn't count as off-roading:)
BTW: in that imaginary competition between the Denali and the Sequoia, I assume you'd only want to hold the race after you've replaced the Sequoia's "little" motor with a real engine:)
Admittedly, I bought my Sequoia out of brand loyalty... My 88 4rnnr survived a head-on with a 900 lb elk at 63,000 miles, and was driven home on the freeway... after $4500 in sheet metal repairs, I drove it another 70,000 miles before a growing family needed more room.
My decision was also fueled by my best friend's wife's comments regarding their then 1 yr old 2000 Yukon... yes, she liked it but "... it isn't as tightly made as our old Cherokee (I was confused by this, since their Cherokee basically fell apart)..."
My understanding of the Sequoia's 4WD system, based on Cliffy's excellent posts, is that in 4WD high, power is routed equally to all wheels. If one wheel begins to slip, Active track applies the ABS brake to that wheel to maintain power to all the others... the key word being "maintain," not "transfer." Based on this understanding, if left in 4WD high, I would consider the Sequoia to functionally be AWD. On the other hand, the Sequoia does have the option of 2WD (I do think this a bit quieter of a ride, and saves marginally on gas), a 4WD low, and a 4WD low with locked center differential. To me, this greatly increases the versatility of the Sequoia, for I do take mine on some pretty messy roads (snow in winter and washboards during the fishing season).
I tried searching the web for additional technical information on Sequoia's 4WD specs... with no luck. However, I did find some interesting links and reviews.
The first indicates that the Sequoia was named the most wanted full-size SUV by Edmund's:
HOUSTON, TX. October 23, 2000 - The Texas Auto Writers Association (TAWA)has announced the winners of the Texas Truck Rodeo after two days of grueling on- and off-road driving competition. For the first time in eight years of rodeo competition, a Sport Utility Vehicle (SUV) was voted the Truck of Texas for the 2000-2001 year. Perhaps reflecting the American love affair with such vehicles, the brand-new Toyota Sequoia took first place in all voting, reflecting journalists opinions of what best reflects the desires of Texas consumers. Interestingly enough, second place in the competition also went to an SUV, the GMC Denali."
Finally, a link to a (limited) review of Sequoia's off-road characteristics:
"Speaking of steep hills, the Sequoia's active traction control, called A-TRAC, which comes standard on four-wheel-drive models, made it easy for us to drive straight up a set of moguls on a dry, gravel-covered ski slope at Big Sky, Montana. Instead of modulating the throttle,we simply held the gas down, and it walked right up the hill, transferring torque to the tires with the best grip. Drop it into the low range, and the system automatically locks the center differential for go-anywhere traction capability."
Many months ago, a Sequoia owner posted (on Sequoia solutions)his reviews of Sequoia after participating in the Easter weekend off-road Jeep rodeo held in Utah's red-rock country... my recollection is that the Sequoia fared quite well, given its size. Certainly, my opinion after driving my sequoia for a year (~11,000 miles including ~1000 miles of dirt roads ranging from poor to good, and ~1000 mi pulling a 16' drift boat) is that it will handle anything I want it to do.
When you get right down to it, everyone has their own tastes/likes/dislikes/opinions... For me, my Sequoia has performed admirably. Yes, it has some quirks (and eats gas). But, I hope and expect to drive it as long as I drove my 4rnnr.
You know HP and Torque are not everything. My Trooper will out drive your denali any day of the week off-road, no matter how much power you have, heck too much power off-road can actually hurt you
Get a 4x4. Resale value...the one time you get stuck you will wish you had it...overall way cooler.
While I love visiting and reading the asinine commentary (at least it seems so to me), this is a question that deserves an answer. 4x2 trucks, unless some kind of specialty vehicle, like one of those racing trucks, is a waste of time, in my opinion (I also don't like those internet acronyms). Toyota as Paisan says has a great 4 wheel drive world wide presence, and if what you say is true, 4 wheel drive off pavement only, im my opinion, that is better for true off-roading, and while you may not go that often, it is cool to know you can.
that was a laugh ! man, you crack me up... testosterone, you say ! that's a compliment, i take it, eh ? So if I understand you correctly, until we "... replaced the Sequoia's "little" motor with a real engine ", the Seq cannot compete with your Denali, eh !. I noticed you had a smiley face on the statement, so i'll say you meant it as a joke, which it should be, of course.
As to your real question on my off-roading schedule (or lack thereof). I am happy to oblige you: I have no immediate plans to off-road now or in my head, as you succintly put it. I bought mine principally as a people mover (hence a 4x2) - for my family's safety, security and comfort. That it can off-road and tow well are, for me, added bonus I have yet to enjoy or use. Hey, I may take you up and actually let you know what I find on the Baja trail when (if) I go off-roading
Read how the denali came second to the sequoia in a texas shoot-out for on- and off-road skills ? Guess those Texans don't know squat about trucks, do they ? how dare they rank the mighty Denali, with the big bad motor and torque behind that puny "little motor" in the Sequoia ? I am sure there is a perfect little explanation for the denali coming just a tad short against the seq., as always...
take care and see you in the woods or trails where i expect to kick *** of any denali i find on my way .....
I looked at about 300 messages to see if this problem had been posted, but didn't see anything, so I'd like to ask if anyone else has had a problem with the Keyless Entry Remote honking the horn when you unlock the door(s) ???
This is only happening about 3 or 4 times out of a hundred, but the last time it happened, there was a BIG biker type dude standing about 10 feet in front of the truck when it happened (man, is that horn ever LOUD...)- I know that I'm not accidently hitting the panic button (it happened once while I was holding it STRICTLY by the sides of the remote).
I tried using the 2nd remote that came with the truck to see if I had a bad remote, but both remotes have done the same thing...
The horn only honks once - then shuts off (unlike the panic button which continues to honk, honk honk till you hit the button again)
I took it in for the 10,000 mile maintainance and told them about the problem, but they were "unable to duplicate the problem" - it's happened 3 times in the last 3,000 miles, so...
Other than that problem, I absolutely LOVE the Truck (after 5 Dodge Grand Caravans, it's rather refreshing!)
Any help, suggestions or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
My 2001, SR5, 15k miles is a tad bit squirraly. just keeping infor on alignment in the back of my mind for future reference.
Oac3, did the alignment help keep the truck better controlled? It's real easy to drive mine except on real windy days, I'm wondering if I should have the dealer mess with the settings...
Other notes: No problems so far. Once snow melts, I'm looking to install the fogs in front. No major issues (unlike my 96 blazer which spent more time going up and done than horizontal).
I know this is the Toyota discussion board but I have a question on 4WD and since there is already a discussion in progress, I thought this might be a good place for questions. I just purchased a 2002 5.3 Yukon SLT equipped with AutoTrack. I only have 1600 miles. Prior to this I owned a 1993 Jeep grand Cherokee Limited AWD.
This is my understanding on how the Yukon system works. The Yukon has 4 buttons, 2WHI, Auto4WHI, 4WHI, 4WLO. Normally you drive in 2WHI in which only the two back wheels are providing the drive. In Auto 4WHI, the back wheels are driving. If the car senses slippage in the rear wheels, the front wheels are engaged and both the back and front wheels are providing drive. As soon as the rear wheels gain traction, the front wheels unlock and are free rolling again. In 4WHI both the rear and front wheels are locked together and drive is provided 50/50. Essentially all 4 wheels are turning at the same speed.
My question is this: When I engage the 4WHI drive and I am driving very slowly on dry pavement, such as in a parking lot, as I turn a corner sharply, the more I turn the more the front wheels start to bind. It feels like someone is grabbing the wheels and front axle and squeezing them tighter and tighter until they can’t turn anymore. Eventually the vehicle will stop. As soon as I hit the 2WHI button, the front wheels are disengaged and free to turn. Only the rear wheels are providing drive and now the vehicle starts moving again.
Is this normal for my 4WDHI system? Has anyone experienced this affect?. I know that when 4WHI is engaged, essentially all 4 wheels are locked together turning at the same speed. I also realize that when turning, the front wheels turn at different speeds so the outer wheel will want to spin faster than the inner wheel. I expect to experience some drag on the front wheels. And I know with my previous Jeep that in AWD, the front wheels may provide drive all the time, but since it has a limited slip differential, it allows for the different speeds in the front wheels.
The LC does not have a "viscous liq center diff" and neither does the Sequoia. Both have the ability to lock the center differential although the method for this varies. Both are "Active-Trac" systems. The only differences are in the nuances. The reason the US Land Cruiser does not come with a rear locker any more is due to the Active-Trac system. Prior to the 2000 model year, we had this.
You mean to tell me that an electronically managed through brakes and throttle is better than a full-on locker? Dang I want to get an FJ80 more and more now, even though it only has the I6 it's still the best off-roader offered in the US.
Define better. Yes, it is better in many situations. The only one I can think of where it is not is rock crawling on the Rubican Trail. Even then, I would bet that a properly used VSC would hold its own.
fishcar: good assessment and info. Once again there is a misunderstanding however of the advantages and disadvantages of the Toyota system in the Sequoia. Because of the open diffs, it is possible for a wheel to drop to 0% power or for that matter the entire front end of the Sequoia to drop to 0% of the available torque.
In on-road conditions this is typically not considered desirable and is the exact reason that performance cars use awd system which dedicate some % of torque to all 4 wheels under all circumstances.
Question: what if your Sequoia is standing with all 4 wheels on ice. With open diffs, the engineering would suggest that no wheels will turn, whereas an awd vehicle with a rear LSD and a CTR visc liq diff will definitely turn its tires even if they are slipping until some momentum is gained.
paisan: I don't doubt the Trooper performs quite well off-road. The reason it would outperform a Denali XL is its smaller size and certainly not its power disadvantage. Either way you're likely to win simply because I doubt you'll find many Denali's off-roading just like I doubt you'll come across any Sequoias.
Neither the Sequoia or the Denali are going to be terribly good off-road vehicles given the length of their wheelbase and their overall weight. But guys it really doesn't matter, the only time these vehicles are going to see any off-road time is when you get your driveway resealed and the vehicle is relegated to parking on the lawn. The rest of the debate is rather entertaining on the off-road merits of these vehicles given the fact that most of the owners are more worried about which wax is best to use on the finish and not which trail is going to provide the hardest challenge to the testosterone steed of their dreams.
pschreck: you state "You know as well as the rest of the group that the Sequoia does have a locking center differential. Does the Denali?"
The Sequoia has a locking center diff only when engaged in 4wd for off-road or slippery road conditions. For full time 4wd there is only a open ctr diff. The Denali provides a visc liq ctr diff providing the best of both worlds by linking the rear to the front but also enabling the system to be engaged at all times on all road conditions. For on-road performance that is a significant advantage over a open ctr diff.
rcalci: Actually you won't blow up the front diff by operating your Yukon in 4WHI on dry pavement. The vehicle has an open front differential. However by operating in 4WHI on dry pavement you will place unecessary wear on the engaged ctr diff. The reason your front wheels are binding in 4WHI is that that mode engages the ctr diff forcing power to both ends of the vehicle, however it can not provide the necessary slippage to accomodate the different wheel speeds in a turn. Therefore it is designed only to be operated when the roads are slippery since the road provides the slippage instead of the drivetrain.
Auto 4WHI transfers power from the rear wheels to the front wheels as slippage occurs in the rear. Since the ctr diff is now disengaged there will be no binding created by different wheel rotation rates.
whoose you are right Heatwave, it's the center diffy that will blow up. Auto4wHi won't harm the center diffy cause it only activates in low traction situations and therefore won't bind up the wheels.
You are also correct Heatwave, that neithr the Denali nor the Sequoia will be seen off-road, which is why the viscous center diffy IMHO is better for the intended use of these vehicles. I'd still like to see the denali us a beefed up Borg Warner TOD system which would provide the best of both worlds.
That link has incorrect information. Just because it is on the Internet does not mean it is correct. I don't know who these guys are, but somebody added the "viscous coupling" to Toyota's description. Take a look at the Toyota web site:
You will notice a glaring difference in descriptions. Toyota does not mention a VC because there isn't one.
We used to have a poster here (I think it was thirdsuv but I could be wrong) who actually did a fair amount of off road driving with his Sequoia. He also bought a shop manual and posted a description of what it said. The "transfer case" is actually a remarkable piece of engineering. There is a piece something similar to a giant bicycle chain that pulls the front drive gears up and creates a genuine open differential.
I am holding a copy of Toyota's 2002 Source book. This is a sales tool for salesman and unfortunately, it is not available on-line for the general public. I will quote a few lines to back up what I have been saying about the Sequoia/Land Cruiser and our other products.
Under the mechanical features of the Sequoia:
- Multi-mode 4 wheel drive with center locking differential.
Under mechanical features of the Land Cruiser:
- Full-time 4WD system with locking center differential.
Under mechanical features of the RAV4:
- Full-time 4-wheel drive. - Viscous-coupling-type center differential.
Note the difference. I also looked at the Highlander but there was no mention of the center differential at all. I know from experience that the HL is the same as the RAV. The wording for the Runner is the same as for the Sequoia.
Jeez! There is only one way to "prove" this and I'm not going to spend the money to do it. If somebody would purchase the shop manual for $130, scan the diagram of the center differential and post it to a web site, you would see that the Sequoia, Land Cruiser and 4Runner do not have a VC.
I'm not saying it does or doesn't have a VC. I'm just saying that what that book says = nothing. It may or may not have a VC but don't quote it and say "this proves X" when it clearly doesn't prove anything.
I think you need to determine what transfer case the LC uses? Actually isn't the transfer case that "locks" the center? From there there are two basic types that provide on-road 4wd ability, viscous and ones that uses some gearing/clutches? You don't necessarily have to shell out $130, just identify the actual parts involved and look them up?
Anything that is put out by a manufacturer could be deemed as marketing materials. I don't like the marketing weasels (Goebbels) anymore than you do, but engineers don't write materials for websites. All of these websites that have been mentioned are written by the weasels to sell cars or trucks, so all of them are subject to the weasel factor. From what source should this information come from?
Sure, but according to this forum, if you can't post it on the Internet, it isn't real. This is a goofy conversation anyway. I think I'll find a web site that claims the sky is green. Then we can discuss the shortcomings with blue skies.
Cliffy don't you work at a dealer? or have some friends who do? Perhaps they can scan the page with the diag of the T-case, that would give us some insight? Or perhaps somone on here can call a Yoda dealer and ask for a diagram be faxed to them to identify some parts of it that need replacing, then they can in turn scan it or have it faxed to an efax account and then I think we'd have an answer.
Comments
Since the finest SUV's (offroad ones) use 4wd maybe that's why the Sequoia is a little more money- they didn't cheap out on the 4wd system.
I agree that it's unlikely that we will do any serious offroading with our vehicles, but the point is we can if we want to.
You are probably right about the actual selling price of a Sequoia. That's what happens with supply and demand. I think you should be careful always pointing that out to us. To me it says we have the more desirable vehicle otherwise your monster would be selling for more as well.
Most people grasp the benefits of the approach. You appear to not be able to grasp the concept. You might want to consider chatting with a Audi, Volvo, Subaru, MB, BMW or maybe even a GM dealer.
While I appreciate your view "You are probably right about the actual selling price of a Sequoia. That's what happens with supply and demand. I think you should be careful always pointing that out to us. To me it says we have the more desirable vehicle otherwise your monster would be selling for more as well."
Another way to interpret the higher sales #s of the GM compared to the Toyota, is that the more desirable vehicle is bought by people not so easily swayed by marketing and quality hype and more interested in getting power, features and value from the vehicle they choose:)
1- lock the doors when you move the shifter from Park
2- lock doors when you hit 12mph
3- unlock doors when drivers door is opened (and key is in acc or removed).
and
4- unlock doors when shifter is returned to park.
You program the door by doing a few steps that are listed in the owners manual. Mine are currently on #1 and that is it, I want to change it to numbers 2 and 4. But no matter how many times I repeat the procedure I cannot get it to program. Anyone else have any problems or luck in changing the settings?
Also, on the keyless entry I guess it can be changed from 2 pushes on the unlock to get all doors open to just 1 push. The owners manual states to call dealer, before I do that (since they are closed), has anyone had any luck with that?
Thanks
Last time I checked neither Volvo nor Audi made a proper SUV, although they do make outstanding vehicles (station wagons).
Lets see, all of the small on road station wagons and suv's use awd. All of the serious vehicles and world class benchmarking suv's use 4wd. Gee let me think about what I want in my full size SUV.
I don't claim to be an expert on 4wd systems, nor do I care to be. I do understand the basic concept in spite of your comments and finally you answered my question.
So tell me what is the advantage of the denali system if there is wheel slip and more power has to be transferred? Won't they do it in roughly the same amount of time? Even if there was no power to the front wheels all the time in the Sequoia there would be in the millisecond when slippage was detected.
Besides, the Sequoia has skid and traction control, while your monster does not.
Given your feelings about your monster, I'm sure you'd be arguing about the superiority of 4wd vs. awd if you had 4wd and the Sequoia awd.
shawn
The problem here sometimes is that certain posters are so focussed on price and specs that they just can't see or accept what you describe.
I test drove all of the others and made by decision very much based on what you describe.
I've tried multiple times to explain the difference of awd vs 4wd. And you still can't seem to grasp it based on your repeating the same question. Therefore I directed you to speak to people more expert than myself on the subject of awd such as dealerships selling awd vehicles. You consider that an insult? My goodness, you're awful sensitive.
What does the point of Volvo or Audi not making suvs have to do with the performance of awd vs 4wd? If you're interested in a vehicle with the best handling characteristics for on-road performance, an awd vehicle will always be better than a vehicle with 4wd that must transfer power after slippage has occurred.
A vehicle that can lock its center differential or has limited slip differentials at the rear front or center or any combination will perform better off-road than a vehicle without them although the Sequoia makes a good technical argument for using electronics instead of mechanics to modulate torque transfer. Time will tell which system is better however I've not seen any serious off-road machine that would employ a system solely dependent on the electronic transfer of torque with an entirely open differential setup. Maybe its the better arrangement, maybe its not. But Toyota is the only manufacturer deploying this arrangment.
If you're suggesting Toyota must be right and a dozen other manufacturers must all be wrong with their proven systems, I would prefer to put my trust in the proven systems until proof is provided that an entirely different arrangement is better.
pschreck: I get my information from the same sources on the Sequoia as all of you get... right here on the internet. And I have to say Toyota has not provided alot of technical details, off-road perfomance measures, on-road performance measures on their system by which to make much judgement. Therefore if you have some source of data that can provide facts that suggest something I have stated about the system is inaccurate, I would welcome the opportunity to review it.
Heatwave, I think you rely on the internet information, marketing material, and theoreticals more than actual proven real world tests, at least in the arguement here.
-mike
That doesn't mean that a new system using open diffs and electronics to brake slipping wheels, by default, is the new standard for providing traction just because it came from Toyota. Consider me a doubting Thomas until a new design has some data to support its claims.
pschreck: That's all I'm asking of you. Show me where it says that there is torque being delivered to the front wheels of the Sequoia before the rear is slipping.
-mike
I read in the FAQ posts on Tundra solutions that the 4x4 system on the Tundra is different than what is on the Sequoia and Land Cruiser. You can't be in 4x4 mode on dry pavement with the Tundra unlike the Sequoia and Land Cruiser. My fear is that the wife will drive the Tundra in 4x4 mode on dry pavement.
Questions:
Has the Tundra 4x4 system changed on the 2002 model now that Toyota will add in the limited slip diff?
Would it be better to get the 4x2 with LSD and offroad package?
I plan to go offroad on trails at least 4 times a year maybe more. I live in sunny Southern California.
Thanks for the info and yes I know this is not the Tundra board but Cliffy is usually on here(4x4 expert) and we are all Toyota family.
I look forward to all your opinions and advice.
If you believe I did make such a claim, please point it out so that I can retract it, otherwise its possible you misinterpreted my remarks.
IMHO, I believe its Toyota's responsibility to let their Sequoia owner's and prospective owners know if power is directed to the front wheels at all times. Strange how all other manufacturers believe this type of information is important to their consumers as they make it readily available and yet Toyota keeps the facts from consumers.
-mike
But we all know that the Sequoia uses the exact same drivetrain as the legendary LC (except for the availability of the 2WD mode in the Seq), so what would a conjecture of the Seq's off-road prowress be if its antecedent has such a legenday and undisputed off-road prowress ???
Answer: It will kick the Denali's *** off-road, hands down ! so you can theorize all you wish about the denali awd versus the seq's 4wd, the simple fact of the matter is this: the Seq will outfox the Denali if and when both ever venture off road, anyday, anytime.... that, imo, is what irks you heatwave, you just can't stomach this simple fact, can you ? So you try your darnest best to come up with all kinds of information that proves you right, while muddling the discussion with the addition of Subaru's MBZ, etc... just to get us all confused... The truth is out there and it will set you free, you just gotta believe !!!
The TLC found overseas is a different model than the TLC found here. The overseas models are similar to the FZJ80 model that was discontinued here a few years ago. One major difference is that the FZJ80 had a solid front axle.
-mike
Therefore I'm not sure why you're describing the LC's 4wd system as the same as a Sequoia's.
Also I sent an email on March 20 to the Toyota's National Customer Assistance Center, it asked
"When the Sequoia is operating in full-time 4wd what is the minimum distribution of power from front to rear in % of torque. Your assistance would be greatly appreciated."
I have not yet received a reply from Toyota.
The issue is not if there is any power being delivered to the front wheels but what is the minimum that the design of the system will ensure is delivered to front wheels under all circumstances. That is the question that manufacturers of AWD systems provide as routine information. If the system allows the front wheels to drop to 0% torque under any circumstances than by most engineers definitions this system would not be defined as AWD. It is neither a bad or good thing but an apt description of the type of drivetrain propelling that vehicle.
AWD provides a minimum torque "guaranteed" to the front wheels under all circumstances and under a system that can be operated at all speeds on all road conditions.
A permanent 4wd system utilizes slippage to move traction to wheels that are not slipping but maintains no minimum of torque to all wheels at all times. This system can be operated at all speeds on all road conditions.
A part-time 4wd system maintains a minimum amount of torque to all wheels at all times but can only be operated off-road or in wet road conditions.
Its simply been my contention from the start that the Sequoia system is not awd and that for on-road performance AWD is a preferable drivetrain to permanent 4wd.
oac3: after you have let your testosterone settle back to normal levels would you mind sharing the last time you ran your Sequoia on the Baja 1000 or when you've penciled it into you calendar for a future run? I'd be interested in how you felt your Sequoia performed under those conditions (that he-man dream you had planned for this evening taking your Sequoia on a mental African safari doesn't count as off-roading:)
BTW: in that imaginary competition between the Denali and the Sequoia, I assume you'd only want to hold the race after you've replaced the Sequoia's "little" motor with a real engine:)
My decision was also fueled by my best friend's wife's comments regarding their then 1 yr old 2000 Yukon... yes, she liked it but "... it isn't as tightly made as our old Cherokee (I was confused by this, since their Cherokee basically fell apart)..."
My understanding of the Sequoia's 4WD system, based on Cliffy's excellent posts, is that in 4WD high, power is routed equally to all wheels. If one wheel begins to slip, Active track applies the ABS brake to that wheel to maintain power to all the others... the key word being "maintain," not "transfer." Based on this understanding, if left in 4WD high, I would consider the Sequoia to functionally be AWD. On the other hand, the Sequoia does have the option of 2WD (I do think this a bit quieter of a ride, and saves marginally on gas), a 4WD low, and a 4WD low with locked center differential. To me, this greatly increases the versatility of the Sequoia, for I do take mine on some pretty messy roads (snow in winter and washboards during the fishing season).
I tried searching the web for additional technical information on Sequoia's 4WD specs... with no luck. However, I did find some interesting links and reviews.
The first indicates that the Sequoia was named the most wanted full-size SUV by Edmund's:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/mostwanted/2002/47605/article.html
The next link indicates that the Sequoia won the Texas truck rodeo, with the Denali placing second:
http://www.autorevista.com/articles/01sequoia.htm
HOUSTON, TX. October 23, 2000 - The Texas Auto Writers Association (TAWA)has announced the winners of the Texas Truck Rodeo after two days of grueling on- and off-road driving competition. For the first time in eight years of rodeo competition, a Sport Utility Vehicle (SUV) was voted the Truck of Texas for the 2000-2001 year. Perhaps reflecting the American love affair with such vehicles, the brand-new Toyota Sequoia took first place in all voting, reflecting journalists opinions of what best reflects the desires of Texas consumers. Interestingly enough, second place in the competition also went to an SUV, the GMC Denali."
Finally, a link to a (limited) review of Sequoia's off-road characteristics:
http://www.satisfied-mind.com/cars/Toyota-Sequoia.htm
"Speaking of steep hills, the Sequoia's active traction control, called A-TRAC, which comes standard on four-wheel-drive models, made it easy for us to drive straight up a set of moguls on a dry, gravel-covered ski slope at Big Sky, Montana. Instead of modulating the throttle,we simply held the gas down, and it walked right up the hill, transferring torque to the tires with the best grip. Drop it into the low range, and the system automatically locks the center differential for go-anywhere traction capability."
Many months ago, a Sequoia owner posted (on Sequoia solutions)his reviews of Sequoia after participating in the Easter weekend off-road Jeep rodeo held in Utah's red-rock country... my recollection is that the Sequoia fared quite well, given its size. Certainly, my opinion after driving my sequoia for a year (~11,000 miles including ~1000 miles of dirt roads ranging from poor to good, and ~1000 mi pulling a 16' drift boat) is that it will handle anything I want it to do.
When you get right down to it, everyone has their own tastes/likes/dislikes/opinions... For me, my Sequoia has performed admirably. Yes, it has some quirks (and eats gas). But, I hope and expect to drive it as long as I drove my 4rnnr.
-mike
While I love visiting and reading the asinine commentary (at least it seems so to me), this is a question that deserves an answer. 4x2 trucks, unless some kind of specialty vehicle, like one of those racing trucks, is a waste of time, in my opinion (I also don't like those internet acronyms). Toyota as Paisan says has a great 4 wheel drive world wide presence, and if what you say is true, 4 wheel drive off pavement only, im my opinion, that is better for true off-roading, and while you may not go that often, it is cool to know you can.
As to your real question on my off-roading schedule (or lack thereof). I am happy to oblige you: I have no immediate plans to off-road now or in my head, as you succintly put it. I bought mine principally as a people mover (hence a 4x2) - for my family's safety, security and comfort. That it can off-road and tow well are, for me, added bonus I have yet to enjoy or use. Hey, I may take you up and actually let you know what I find on the Baja trail when (if) I go off-roading
Read how the denali came second to the sequoia in a texas shoot-out for on- and off-road skills ? Guess those Texans don't know squat about trucks, do they ? how dare they rank the mighty Denali, with the big bad motor and torque behind that puny "little motor" in the Sequoia ? I am sure there is a perfect little explanation for the denali coming just a tad short against the seq., as always...
take care and see you in the woods or trails where i expect to kick *** of any denali i find on my way .....
This is only happening about 3 or 4 times out of a hundred, but the last time it happened, there was a BIG biker type dude standing about 10 feet in front of the truck when it happened (man, is that horn ever LOUD...)- I know that I'm not accidently hitting the panic button (it happened once while I was holding it STRICTLY by the sides of the remote).
I tried using the 2nd remote that came with the truck to see if I had a bad remote, but both remotes have done the same thing...
The horn only honks once - then shuts off (unlike the panic button which continues to honk, honk honk till you hit the button again)
I took it in for the 10,000 mile maintainance and told them about the problem, but they were "unable to duplicate the problem" - it's happened 3 times in the last 3,000 miles, so...
Other than that problem, I absolutely LOVE the Truck (after 5 Dodge Grand Caravans, it's rather refreshing!)
Any help, suggestions or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thx
My 2001, SR5, 15k miles is a tad bit squirraly. just keeping infor on alignment in the back of my mind for future reference.
Oac3, did the alignment help keep the truck better controlled? It's real easy to drive mine except on real windy days, I'm wondering if I should have the dealer mess with the settings...
Other notes:
No problems so far. Once snow melts, I'm looking to install the fogs in front.
No major issues (unlike my 96 blazer which spent more time going up and done than horizontal).
NL
This is my understanding on how the Yukon system works. The Yukon has 4 buttons, 2WHI, Auto4WHI, 4WHI, 4WLO. Normally you drive in 2WHI in which only the two back wheels are providing the drive. In Auto 4WHI, the back wheels are driving. If the car senses slippage in the rear wheels, the front wheels are engaged and both the back and front wheels are providing drive. As soon as the rear wheels gain traction, the front wheels unlock and are free rolling again. In 4WHI both the rear and front wheels are locked together and drive is provided 50/50. Essentially all 4 wheels are turning at the same speed.
My question is this: When I engage the 4WHI drive and I am driving very slowly on dry pavement, such as in a parking lot, as I turn a corner sharply, the more I turn the more the front wheels start to bind. It feels like someone is grabbing the wheels and front axle and squeezing them tighter and tighter until they can’t turn anymore. Eventually the vehicle will stop. As soon as I hit the 2WHI button, the front wheels are disengaged and free to turn. Only the rear wheels are providing drive and now the vehicle starts moving again.
Is this normal for my 4WDHI system? Has anyone experienced this affect?. I know that when 4WHI is engaged, essentially all 4 wheels are locked together turning at the same speed. I also realize that when turning, the front wheels turn at different speeds so the outer wheel will want to spin faster than the inner wheel. I expect to experience some drag on the front wheels. And I know with my previous Jeep that in AWD, the front wheels may provide drive all the time, but since it has a limited slip differential, it allows for the different speeds in the front wheels.
-mike
-mike
-mike
fishcar: good assessment and info. Once again there is a misunderstanding however of the advantages and disadvantages of the Toyota system in the Sequoia. Because of the open diffs, it is possible for a wheel to drop to 0% power or for that matter the entire front end of the Sequoia to drop to 0% of the available torque.
In on-road conditions this is typically not considered desirable and is the exact reason that performance cars use awd system which dedicate some % of torque to all 4 wheels under all circumstances.
Question: what if your Sequoia is standing with all 4 wheels on ice. With open diffs, the engineering would suggest that no wheels will turn, whereas an awd vehicle with a rear LSD and a CTR visc liq diff will definitely turn its tires even if they are slipping until some momentum is gained.
paisan: I don't doubt the Trooper performs quite well off-road. The reason it would outperform a Denali XL is its smaller size and certainly not its power disadvantage. Either way you're likely to win simply because I doubt you'll find many Denali's off-roading just like I doubt you'll come across any Sequoias.
Neither the Sequoia or the Denali are going to be terribly good off-road vehicles given the length of their wheelbase and their overall weight. But guys it really doesn't matter, the only time these vehicles are going to see any off-road time is when you get your driveway resealed and the vehicle is relegated to parking on the lawn. The rest of the debate is rather entertaining on the off-road merits of these vehicles given the fact that most of the owners are more worried about which wax is best to use on the finish and not which trail is going to provide the hardest challenge to the testosterone steed of their dreams.
pschreck: you state "You know as well as the rest of the group that the Sequoia does have a locking center differential. Does the Denali?"
The Sequoia has a locking center diff only when engaged in 4wd for off-road or slippery road conditions. For full time 4wd there is only a open ctr diff. The Denali provides a visc liq ctr diff providing the best of both worlds by linking the rear to the front but also enabling the system to be engaged at all times on all road conditions. For on-road performance that is a significant advantage over a open ctr diff.
rcalci: Actually you won't blow up the front diff by operating your Yukon in 4WHI on dry pavement. The vehicle has an open front differential. However by operating in 4WHI on dry pavement you will place unecessary wear on the engaged ctr diff. The reason your front wheels are binding in 4WHI is that that mode engages the ctr diff forcing power to both ends of the vehicle, however it can not provide the necessary slippage to accomodate the different wheel speeds in a turn. Therefore it is designed only to be operated when the roads are slippery since the road provides the slippage instead of the drivetrain.
Auto 4WHI transfers power from the rear wheels to the front wheels as slippage occurs in the rear. Since the ctr diff is now disengaged there will be no binding created by different wheel rotation rates.
-mike
-mike
http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/land_cruiser/specs/land_cruiser_specs.html
You will notice a glaring difference in descriptions. Toyota does not mention a VC because there isn't one.
We used to have a poster here (I think it was thirdsuv but I could be wrong) who actually did a fair amount of off road driving with his Sequoia. He also bought a shop manual and posted a description of what it said. The "transfer case" is actually a remarkable piece of engineering. There is a piece something similar to a giant bicycle chain that pulls the front drive gears up and creates a genuine open differential.
Under the mechanical features of the Sequoia:
- Multi-mode 4 wheel drive with center locking differential.
Under mechanical features of the Land Cruiser:
- Full-time 4WD system with locking center differential.
Under mechanical features of the RAV4:
- Full-time 4-wheel drive.
- Viscous-coupling-type center differential.
Note the difference. I also looked at the Highlander but there was no mention of the center differential at all. I know from experience that the HL is the same as the RAV. The wording for the Runner is the same as for the Sequoia.
-mike
I'm not saying it does or doesn't have a VC. I'm just saying that what that book says = nothing. It may or may not have a VC but don't quote it and say "this proves X" when it clearly doesn't prove anything.
-mike
-mike
:-)
I have been on the sidelines, but since this seems like a factual argument, I felt that chiming in was not innappropriate.
Steve
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