It is part of our invoice. Edmunds tells you that this fee exists, but does not tell you the amount. This is because it is different in every region. From a dealer's perspective, invoice is the final total at the bottom of the page and that includes the TDA fee.
I just bought a 2002 Limited Sequoia from a dealership here in Orlando, Florida. I had the truck for 2 weeks now and now have approximately 1400 miles on it. It runs great on the road!
The problem arose when I had it off road this weekend. I figured I would goose it in the sand and see how the traction control worked. When I hit the gas the real wheels broke into a spin. There was an awful gutwrenching sound coming from below the center console area where the transmission is located under the vehicle. The sound it made was like gears grinding or something slipping. I then put it in 4 wheel drive and broke the wheels in loose sand. The grinding was still present. I even tried turning off the vsc during 4wd and it didnt help. Once on the road again the vehicle performes like a charm. It appears the noise is only made when the rear wheels loose traction. I now have the vehicle in the shop and they cant find anything wrong with the vehicle......................... Any comments/suggestions.
So TDA is an actual expense for the dealer and I have no problem paying for it. Do I understand correctly that it is in addition to what I find as invoice in Edmunds? Also, does $750 sound high for that fee? I live in Utah. I assume all 4 or 5 dealers in the surrounding 45 miles pay the same $amount of TDA fee?
Thanks for the info, I enjoy your straight forward and well informed posts.
I own a blue marlin pearl '02 SR5 with the JBL Premium 3-in-1 AM/FM ETR/Cassette/CD with 10 speakers. Where are all those speakers located? I only count 6 speakers, 4 on the front doors and 2 on the rear doors. There doesn't seem to be any speakers at the rear of the vehicle for the 3rd row passengers to listen to.
That grinding noise is probably the traction control. TRACS uses your ABS system to apply brakes to the slipping wheel. As you know, ABS makes a loud grinding and clicking sound.
TDA is an actual expense that is not reimbursed. In fact, Toyota dealers were sued about 7 years ago because we use to get half the money back. It is now a genuine fee on the invoice.
The amount of this fee does change from region to region. Here in the Central Atlantic Region, it is 2.1% of invoice. I know Northern CA is 2.3%, Southern CA is 1.5% but has a $300 ceiling. I think the mid west is less. The $750 sounds about like ours here.
Go to the "Toyota 4WD systems explained" board and read the first messages by cliffy1. Once you read that explanation you will see that all is right with the world. Hey, you could be stuck with a GM 4wd system that is only useful in the snow and while offroading.
I test drove some other Sequoias today to see if this noise was standard with the Sequoia. I drove both the 4wd and a 2wd models. Sure enough when the rear wheels broke loose during the test drive on a dirt road, both models sounded like they were falling apart. What an awful noise. Grinding and popping. Why does ABS make such a racket? Cant they make another system or something, that noise can't be good.
The only way to stop the grinding/popping noise during this senerio is to turn the trac system off by selecting the trac button. I believe the trac system can only be turned off by this method on the 2wd models. Why doesn't the 4wd model have this option as well?
Anyone installed a hood deflector on their Sequoia yet? I want to stop the road rash on the hood and windshield. If you have one, which one and how is it working for you. Was it hard to install?
TDA is charged by all the dealers I visited. Here is NYC metro and Philli metro area, it's $500. I thought metro area has higher TDA than rural. So, $750 sounds high to me. But I did pay $800 over invoice price that includes TDA. The dealer holdback is $699. So, the dealer make about $1500 profit.
The answer to your question is a long story but I'll summarize. The 2WD has a TRAC off button because the TRAC feature also cuts engine output which can be dangerous. In the 4WD model, the engine limiting portion of TRACS is disconnected, while the braking system part is not.
Thanks for your time cliffy1. I still don't understand why the system makes such a racket. I would assume it has something to do with the power being transfered to the front wheels. As long as it is working properly I can deal with it. This noise cant be the brakes, it has to be the limited slip differential and/or gears engaging from the tracs system.
Do you have any recommendations on quieting the system down? For example, would using 100% synthetic oil in the differentials help reduce the noise?
And what is your take on synthetic oil in general? i.e motor oil
Try this experament. Go back to the dirt road and slam on your brakes. You'll hear the same noise. All ABS systems do this. I don't know why but they do.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. The Toyota 4WD system is, BY FAR, superior to the GM 4WD or AWD systems since with Toyota you essentially get both. Well worth any imagined premium one might pay. I know you understand this to be true, but I should have worded my statement so those folks who would be misled by GM marketing twits would understand my meaning.
I complained about the grinding noise in great detail a while back. You thankfully won't have to drive the vehicle in snow on a daily basis. In which case it pretty much grinds constantly. Toyota's answer was "Yep, that's normal." Though I have never heard that noise in my friend's LandCruiser, the LX470, a Yukon or a Suburban.
We are in the process of selling our Sequoia outright after only 12,000 miles. Our ownership experience does not jive with most others in this forum. We plan on buying a VW 4Motion Passat Wagon once (if) the Sequoia sells.
I live and drive in the snow every day. The system does not grind constantly. I find it most effective. You have been unhappy with your Sequoia from day one and have let us know at every opportunity. The Sequoia is a very desirable vehicle and you should have no problem selling it. I rarely see them for sale in paper etc..
comes with a lot of smoke and mirrors. I've never seen it pointed out on an invoice. I paid over the Edmunds invoice by an amount that I and the dealer agreed. He agreed that his invoice was with a few dollars within that calculated at Edmunds.
Have open diffs been used in 4WD trucks without the ABS preventing wheel slip feature? I'm curious about this.
In the snow in 4WD, when you don't punch the sequoia hard, there is good traction without the ABS stopping wheel spin, I assume from the backs and fronts each contributing. Is this the case?
That leads to this question, does anyone know, what the torque split between the front and back is on the 4WD sequoia when in 4WD on dry pavement?
Here is Edmund's quote on the TDA fee and I don't see a lot of smoke and mirrors.
"Advertising Charges: Most vehicle invoices include a legitimate advertising fee levied by either the manufacturer or regional dealer groups. Ad fees can range from less than 1 percent of the vehicle's MSRP to more than 3 percent, depending on region. Metropolitan-area dealers are more likely to charge higher advertising fees than rural dealers. When you comparison shop for a car, be sure to ask the dealers how much the advertising charge is on the vehicle. "
I recently installed the Toyota hood deflector with no difficulty. It comes with a template to assist with plotting the two holes that must be drilled--one on each side of the underside of the hood. There are a few other screws that pass through the grill slats. That's about it. Easy.
I apologize for letting everyone know I am unhappy with the $38,000+ SUV investment my wife and I made. This is the "Toyota Sequoia Happy Owners Forum" only. I must have misposted. Again, please accept my apologies.
Oh and you are right, it doesn't grind constantly. Only on hills, when turning, or when the wheels slip. So like maybe 10% of the time.
pschrek: you state "Sorry if I wasn't clear. The Toyota 4WD system is, BY FAR, superior to the GM 4WD or AWD systems since with Toyota you essentially get both. Well worth any imagined premium one might pay. I know you understand this to be true, but I should have worded my statement so those folks who would be misled by GM marketing twits would understand my meaning."
I have to disagree on one point. While you are entitled to your opinion on which Manufacturer's system is best (which I believe favors GM), I believe you are quite mistaken on suggesting the Toyota 4wd system is better than GM's AWD system or for that matter anyone's AWD system when compared to 4wd for on-road purposes.
AWD will always be superior to any 4WD system that starts with a 0/100 torque split between the front and rear axles. Therefore no matter how sophisticated the transfer system is, liquid coupling, electronic sensors etc. there will always be some time needed for the transfer of power between the rear axle and the front axle.
The GM AWD system (as with all AWD systems) provides a dedicated split of power to all wheels, all the time. In the case of the GM Denali XL and the Escalade, the split is 38%front and 62% rear with a viscous liquid center differential to deliver even more torque to the front axle when the rear slips. This center diff is combined with a rear limited slip differential which transfer torque to the wheel with the better traction on the rear axle.
For on road purposes, this is without question the best setup for traction. I say this from experience with 6 different vehicles having 4wd. The downside to the GM AWD system is a lack of 4wd lo, which if you go off-road should be taken into consideration. However of the 6 vehicles I've owned with 4wd, they all had 4wd lo and in 20 years I used Lo gear maybe 5 times. So for me the trade-off was inconsequential.
I think for most owners of 4wd vehicles it will be extraordinary rare that 4wd lo will ever be used or more importantly needed during the vehicles entire lifetime. Just my opinion.
On 4WD trucks with one wheel off the ground and open diffs front rear and center, wouldn't all the torque go to the wheel off the ground. If the center diff were locked and 1 wheel is off the ground one would lose all traction to the front or rear axle. Is this how the toyota trucks work?
I believe you are wrong about the Sequoia 4WD system. As I understand it power goes to the front and rear wheels in a 50/50 split at all times. It does not require slippage to engage power transfer to the front wheels. I think you are mistaking it with the GM Auto 4WD system. Cliffy, please correct me if I'm incorrect about this.
4WD low and locked would be the last setting. This locks the center diff and turns off the Tracs system. In 4WD high it is essentially a Full Time 4WD system much like the Hummer. Any input from cliffy is welcome as I acknowledge his expertise on this system. His is the superior intellect on all things ActiveTrac.
Has anyone had a problem getting their new Sequoia out of park? It's annoying but sometimes I have to pump the brake before the gearshift releases from park in order to get it into drive. At first I thought maybe I'm not pulling the gear shift straight back or not depressing the brake pedal far enough while attempting to shift into drive. Is this a safety feature which may need an adjustment?
No. The settings are as you indicate. I can tell you that when the Sequioa is in 4WD, it has a different feel. You can tell that the front wheels are driving. I engage 4WD at highway speeds when the crosswinds are high and the drive is much more secure. It's also great in the rain. I'm sure you know what I mean. You must experience the same thing with the Denali. It's AWD with the added benefits of 4WD.
Is correct, in that the system is similar to the hummer. With 3 open diffs, the front and rear should receive 50:50 (this was a question I had but I believe 50:50 is correct based on the operation of an open center diff) and the left and right receive torque according to friction and wheel rotation rate from turns. If a back wheel slips, torque goes to zero and the fronts will get the torque and vice versa for the fronts slipping. But, the traction system on the sequoia will apply braking power to the slipping wheel, to allow torque to continue to be transferred to the other wheel on that axle. If both wheels are slipping on that axle, than torque goes to the other axle. If 3 wheels are slipping the traction system will allow traction to go to the fourth wheel. When you gun the sequoia on a slippery road, the slippage results in the ABS system pulsing to prevent slippage to the wheels and hence the noise people hear. For a lot of offroad use or snow driving, I would think that a more aggresive tread AT tire than the stock tires would significantly improve the performance of the 4WD system--3lakes might try this instead of selling his truck.
gpm5 raises a good point. Maybe I don't slip due to having proper Bridgestone DMZ2 winter Dueler tires. You obviously live in a winter climate-are you blaming the Sequoia for your use of non-winter tires?
I guess I just get frustrated with the lack of balance in your comments. While others concede good and bad points you go on about the cost of fixing your Sequoia when a tree hits it. You don't have a clue how much it would cost to fix your Yukon if it was hit instead of the Sequoia, so why make it a negative against the Sequoia?
New consumer reports came out and all Toyotas scored at or near top of lists for reliability, depreciation and satisfaction. The Sequoia was beat out by its cousin the Land Cruiser. FYI I believe the Sequoia was +30% for reliability and the Yukon was -40% for a spread of 70%. The Yukon XL I believe was -50%. Again all by memory as I read but did not buy the magazine. I'm not saying this magazine is "gospel" just sharing the info.
I know, I went on for four whole sentences about repair costs. I guess that must be useless information that nobody cares about. Anyway, my post ended with:
"The total estimate to fix the minor damage was real close to $2,000. Not sure if that is because it is a Toyota and parts are expensive or the bill may have been that high with any vehicle."
Which I exactly say "ANY" vehicle could cost that much. Also, I have done NUMEROUS posts comparing the Toyota in a non-biased way to (my then) Yukon. Even going so far as to saying things I liked about the Toyota over the Yukon. Just because I don't get on here tooting my Toyota horn every other post like you do doesn't make my postings untruthful or non-valuable.
The tire point is a good one. In fact, I wish I'd have thought of that about three months ago. We ordered a VW 4Motion Passat Wagon yesterday and are trading the Sequoia in on it.
At this point, we can not wait to get rid of the Toyota. I do understand that we are only ONE dissatisfied owner out of many happy Sequoia drivers. It's funny how many of the same problems I posted about have been posted by others as well. Missing roof rack covers, abnormally loud grinding in the traction control, the poor stereo, etc. I guess these are all just things that we are not willing to live with in a $38K+ SUV.
Toyota trucks do not have a center differential. They have transfer cases which send exactly 50% of the power front and 50% rear. It is at these points that they enter open differentials. The Sequoia has an open center differential with a 50-50 torque split under even traction conditions.
pschreck: Given the feedback that the Sequoia has an open center diff with open rear and front diffs, the torque split would have to be equal at all 4 corners when in 4wd so long as there was equal traction conditions at all 4 corners. I stand corrected that in 4wd the Sequoia has 0% to the front axle. There is abit of a caveat that I believe is worth noting and outlined below.
In the Denali XL there is no sensational of 4wd nor does it have any of the binding that occurs in most 4wd systems when engaged, due to the viscous liquid center differential and open front differential. Having owned previous 4wd system, many of the older systems typically could not be operated in "dry" conditions because of the binding of the front axle when negotiating turns.
What seems unusual about the Toyota system is that with open differentials in the middle, rear and front the benefit is the smooth negotiating of turns because an open diff cannot bind. The downside is that an open differential will ALWAYS force available torque to the axle/tire with the LEAST traction. This is an important difference from the approach taken by most 4wd systems.
That's why most manufacturer's use a limited slip differential or in serious off-road conditions a locking differential to ensure the torque is either evenly divided or forced to the tire with the MOST traction.
Toyota seems to have engineered around the open diff traction problem (if I understand it correctly) by using the abs system to stop/inhibit the rotation of tires loosing traction thereby forcing the torque to be transferred to either a different axle or opposite side tire. I believe this is the noise that Sequoia owners hear as the computer rapidly pumps hydraulic fluid to different brakes at alternating corners (even though the brake pedal hasn't been touched) and ends up forcing the torque to a tire that is not slipping by transferring torque through the open differentials.
This would be the reverse engineering of how a limited slip differential works and instead of transferring power to the tire that has the best traction, Toyota's system instead tries to prevent the torque from being lost by braking other tires that are slipping, forcing the torque back to the tire(s) with the best traction.
This is certainly a different approach to 4wd however it still requires delay from a typical awd setup where you have "guaranteed" torque to a tire at all times without delays caused by the transfer of power in traditional setups or delays caused by the rapid braking of other wheels to prevent the loss of torque in the Toyota setup.
Toyota's approach is certainly unique if I've described it correctly and yet to be proven by other manufacturer's attempting similar setups.
Actually the approach that Toyota uses is much the same as the Hummer and the Mercedes-Benz. Certainly not unique, but extremely effective. Are you saying that the Hummer is a UNPROVEN truck? I'm not sure where you come up with the time delay. If you are talking about milliseconds, I will concede. However, can AWD guarantee torque or traction with no time delay? It still has to sense slippage to engage. That would require a time delay, would it not? Does the GM system have a limited-slip diff in the front? Or is it simply a open diff with no traction control whatsoever? Perhaps you don't notice any 4WD sensation in the Denali because the is no means of switching off the AWD, so there is no way to compare. Keep in mind that this "sensation" isn't anything tremendous. It's just a feeling that the front wheels are driving like in any front wheel drive car.
pschreck: I mean no disrespect but your information appears somewhat flawed. The Hummer does not operate with 3 open differentials. While it employs a similar TT4 system using the brakes to control slippage and transfer of torque, it combines this technology with a Torsen limited slip differential to avoid slippage to start with. For off-road purposes, the TT4 system combined with limited slip diffs may very well be the best system available, however for highway traction, the surefootedness of awd with minimum levels of torque, IMO, is a simpler and better setup. Either way the Sequoia system lacks the limited slip differentials which makes the system measureably different from the H1 Hummer. For the record, the Hummer uses the exact same transmission as the one used in the 3/4 ton Suburban.
To answer your questions:
"Are you saying that the Hummer is a UNPROVEN truck?"
No, the Hummer is quite proven and significantly different from the 4wd system in the Toyota.
"However, can AWD guarantee torque or traction with no time delay?"
Yes, there is no delay because in an AWD system the torque starts at a wheel and remains there to its minimum. In the case of the Denali, there is a minimum 38% torque delivered to the front axle under ALL circumstances and it cannot go below that minimum, therefore there is no time to transfer anything. Other vehicles with AWD will work on similar principles (with different technologies) that deliver a minimum torque to the front, with the ability for torque to increase, as needed, by transferring it from the rear.
"Does the GM system have a limited-slip diff in the front?" If you're referring to the Denali system the answer is no. ANY 4wd system designed to operate at highways speeds in dry conditions MUST have an open diff in the front in order to avoid "tearing up" the front drivetrain when negotiating turns.
4wd systems that have limited slip or locking front differentials will instruct the user to only engage those systems in "wet" or slippery conditions (or under very slow speeds such as rock climbing and off-roading) to enable the road to provide the slippage for the drivetrain. These are the types of 4wd systems which give a sense of "binding" when negotiating tight turns on dry pavement. Although its possible a similar sensation could be felt in the Toyota system even with an open diff if the system were to brake one side or the other as it sensed slippage.
"Or is it simply a open diff with no traction control whatsoever?"
The Denali system is an open diff with no traction control to transfer torque to the other side on the front end, however because of the center diff design, if one of the front tires spins it will transfer torque to the rear axle down to its mimimum 38%. Once at the rear axle there is a limited slip diff to equalize torque from right to left. This indeed could be an advantage for the Toyota system's front end, although I remain unconvinced that using the ABS system to force torque across axles is the best approach for normal roadway conditions.
Given the concerns expressed by many users on this forum regarding noises, and unusual sensations, it would appear there are still alot of issues to be addressed before Toyota has a system that could be described as "no muss, no fuss" as in the GM, Audi and Subaru approaches to awd.
"Perhaps you don't notice any 4WD sensation in the Denali because the is no means of switching off the AWD, so there is no way to compare."
Actually, I am keenly aware of the feeling of different drivetrains on 4wd systems. As stated, I owned 2 previous 4wd systems from GM, 1 from Jeep and 2 from Nissan. The unique sensation about the current GM AWD system in the Denali is the fact that there is NO sensation. The additional front end traction is there at all times. You can turn the steering wheel as tight or as quick as you wish and you will have the exact same feeling as a vehicle with 2wd, even on dry pavement.
The real beauty of the system is that nothing needs to be engaged and when snowy or wet roads are encountered the vehicle just goes about its business with incredible traction and no noises or unusual sensations as a result of computers, pumps, brake activity or other gizmos needed to transfer power around the drivetrain. Its all simple mechanical physics delivering the best traction where needed.
While we have had little snow this year in the NJ area, I did have the opportunity to drive the Denali XL in heavy snow and very slippery conditions last winter and I can honestly tell you it was a pretty awesome sensation of traction, even in the worst of conditions. No 4wd system in the other vehicles I have owned even came remotely close to this vehicle's traction. In fact, even with 325horses under the hood it was very difficult to get the Michelin Cross Terrains to break free, even in completely snow covered roads.
Sorry for the long post, but awd vs 4wd is not a simple subject that can be explained in a sentence or two.
I just threw down today, and signed a lease for a a black SR5 in Manchester NH. I couldn't be happier. The deal I got was unbelieveable. Carsdirect.com could not come close.
The dealer had a demo with 2K miles on it, cloth. It has the conven. pkg and alloy package. I am adding Leather at the Port in Boston, and my price is coming in at $36K. I am leasing, and with my trade, my lease payments are amazing. We are dumping a Chrysler T&C Minivan, that I should have never bought 2 years ago, and should have driven it off a cliff. Live and learn. This Truck is going to be PLUSH. I will report back what I thought when I take delivery next week. I called many many dealers around NH/ MA and no one is really willing to quote prices over the phone, and supplies for SR5's are very limited. I got really lucky.
okay, okay, maybe I was having a bad day! Remind me please of the things you liked about the Sequoia over the Yukon.
I have offered many opinions about the not so good things about the Sequoia and have listed some things I like about the Yukon. I guess, unlike you, I'm happy with my Sequoia.
What do you mean by (then)Yukon?
The dislikes of the Sequoia you posted seem pretty minor (not happy with stereo, Piece falling off roofrack) and a matter of opinion compared to some of the serious issues I read on GM and other forums.
Maybe you'll come back and visit the forum here once in a while while we brag and wave our Toyota flags and how much we love our vehicles.
No disrespect intended, but I would be very much interested in reading the data on the time delay in the Sequoia. Where did you find this info? Would you be willing to list your references on this?
We had little snow this year in my part of PA, however, the couple of times that we got 4 or 5 inches I had to try to make the ActiveTrac portion of the system kick in. The Sequoia had great traction even with the stock Bridgestones. It simply rolled happily along going about it's business. When I wanted to test the ActiveTrac system, I had to come to a complete stop on a hill with a incline of about 45 degrees. I stepped on the gas and the Sequoia rolled up the hill with no noticable time delay. The system only kicked in long enough to get the Sequoia moving. Not a big deal at all. The only other time it kicked in was when I purposely goosed the truck to ellicit a response.
No 4WD or AWD system is perfect, but the Sequoia system is the best mix of all the systems while still retaining the best traits of all of them. IMHO.
While the GM system may be a fine system for on road needs, you would have to agree that it certainly lacks versatility. No 4WD low, no ability to switch to 2WD (this is not "beauty" to me), no VSC, and no way to lock the center diffetential.
No, the Sequoia is no Hummer,but the Denali AWD is no Sequoia 4WD either.
I believe I have decided to spring for an SR5 and add leather, I have been told by many people that after market leather is better and have seen samples in a camry that do look and feel better than the facotry in a LTD. Anyhow, what is the general concensus on AML and how much should it cost for a Sequoia?
pschreck: you raise some good points and also apparently did read my post very closely. First I never suggested I had any data, nor did I quote any delay times for torque transfer in the Sequoia. I merely stated that any system relying on the "transfer" of torque to a certain corner of the vehicle intrinsically has some delay. Therefore a system with no delay will serve better in on-road conditions than a system with a delay, just my opinion, but one that's well founded in a substantially number of years operating 4wd vehicles (I assume, possibly incorrectly, that this is your first 4wd vehicle).
I would say the Sequoia system is equal to and possibly better than the design of GM's "auto 4wd", although it is also more complex and I wonder about is function after 100K miles. Toyota makes a quality vehicle therefore I would certainly give its durability the benefit of the doubt but it is a new design for Toyota.
I also have little doubt that it operates exceptionally well in poor road conditions, however its my opinion that its a step down from true AWD. OTOH it's more versatile than GM's AWD which lacks 4wd lo. I personally see no upside to being able to disengage AWD to a 2wd mode, however I would also say it was a question I raised myself. Having now driven it for 14 months I would say there is no advantage to operating in 2wd when awd is available.
The VSC is an advantage in the Sequoia over the Denali however Cadillac offers its own system "Stabilitrak" in the Escalade combined with the same AWD system in the Denali.
While I understand your ardent support for the Sequoia, I think you would have to admit given the concerns expressed on this forum, that the design needs further work. No design should create the kinds of questions raised about "grinding noises" and "unsettling handling" that I've read on this forum. Likewise the absence of a limited slip diff in the rear of the Sequoia is a "cost savings" maneuver on Toyota that would have resulting in a much better setup had they at least offered one as an option.
In the end, I would agree that, once the bugs are worked out, the approach Toyota has taken on 4wd, while complex, may produce a better result than the 4wd system from GM. However if you are not planning any off-road trips, AWD is still better than Sequoia's 4wd, IMO.
pschreck: since you raised the subject "No, the Sequoia is no Hummer,but the Denali AWD is no Sequoia 4WD either." I couldn't resist.
There's not a single performance category that the Denali XL doesn't excel over the Sequoia. Whether, its payload, tow capacity, slalom times, space, luxury features etc.
Therefore, I would definitely have to agree with your statement. The Sequoia is most assuredly no Denali XL:)
The sequoia is simply the best handling vehicle in this weight class that I have driven. The stability is truely remarkable in 4WD at all highway speeds and under severe road conditions. I keep it in 4WD 24x7.
The VSC is morre than an advantage. VSC can save your life. The benefits of VSC have been shown in the Mercedes SUVs. The benefits of VSC more than outweight the ABS noise one gets under very slippery conditions under heavy acceleration. Similarly, I'd rather hear the ABS noise when braking on a slippery surface than have a conventional brake system without the noise.
I would agree, that owners need to be sure to have the brakes serviced regularly.
Comments
I just bought a 2002 Limited Sequoia from a dealership here in Orlando, Florida. I had the truck for 2 weeks now and now have approximately 1400 miles on it. It runs great on the road!
The problem arose when I had it off road this weekend. I figured I would goose it in the sand and see how the traction control worked. When I hit the gas the real wheels broke into a spin. There was an awful gutwrenching sound coming from below the center console area where the transmission is located under the vehicle. The sound it made was like gears grinding or something slipping. I then put it in 4 wheel drive and broke the wheels in loose sand. The grinding was still present. I even tried turning off the vsc during 4wd and it didnt help. Once on the road again the vehicle performes like a charm. It appears the noise is only made when the rear wheels loose traction. I now have the vehicle in the shop and they cant find anything wrong with the vehicle.........................
Any comments/suggestions.
Also, does $750 sound high for that fee? I live in Utah. I assume all 4 or 5 dealers in the surrounding 45 miles pay the same $amount of TDA fee?
Thanks for the info, I enjoy your straight forward and well informed posts.
The amount of this fee does change from region to region. Here in the Central Atlantic Region, it is 2.1% of invoice. I know Northern CA is 2.3%, Southern CA is 1.5% but has a $300 ceiling. I think the mid west is less. The $750 sounds about like ours here.
First off thank you cliff1!
Second,
I test drove some other Sequoias today to see if this noise was standard with the Sequoia. I drove both the 4wd and a 2wd models. Sure enough when the rear wheels broke loose during the test drive on a dirt road, both models sounded like they were falling apart. What an awful noise. Grinding and popping. Why does ABS make such a racket? Cant they make another system or something, that noise can't be good.
The only way to stop the grinding/popping noise during this senerio is to turn the trac system off by selecting the trac button. I believe the trac system can only be turned off by this method on the 2wd models. Why doesn't the 4wd model have this option as well?
TIA.
Do you have any recommendations on quieting the system down? For example, would using 100% synthetic oil in the differentials help reduce the noise?
And what is your take on synthetic oil in general?
i.e motor oil
We are in the process of selling our Sequoia outright after only 12,000 miles. Our ownership experience does not jive with most others in this forum. We plan on buying a VW 4Motion Passat Wagon once (if) the Sequoia sells.
The Sequoia is a very desirable vehicle and you should have no problem selling it. I rarely see them for sale in paper etc..
In the snow in 4WD, when you don't punch the sequoia hard, there is good traction without the ABS stopping wheel spin, I assume from the backs and fronts each contributing. Is this the case?
That leads to this question, does anyone know, what the torque split between the front and back is on the 4WD sequoia when in 4WD on dry pavement?
"Advertising Charges:
Most vehicle invoices include a legitimate advertising fee levied by either the manufacturer or regional dealer groups. Ad fees can range from less than 1 percent of the vehicle's MSRP to more than 3 percent, depending on region. Metropolitan-area dealers are more likely to charge higher advertising fees than rural dealers. When you comparison shop for a car, be sure to ask the dealers how much the advertising charge is on the vehicle. "
Oh and you are right, it doesn't grind constantly. Only on hills, when turning, or when the wheels slip. So like maybe 10% of the time.
I have to disagree on one point. While you are entitled to your opinion on which Manufacturer's system is best (which I believe favors GM), I believe you are quite mistaken on suggesting the Toyota 4wd system is better than GM's AWD system or for that matter anyone's AWD system when compared to 4wd for on-road purposes.
AWD will always be superior to any 4WD system that starts with a 0/100 torque split between the front and rear axles. Therefore no matter how sophisticated the transfer system is, liquid coupling, electronic sensors etc. there will always be some time needed for the transfer of power between the rear axle and the front axle.
The GM AWD system (as with all AWD systems) provides a dedicated split of power to all wheels, all the time. In the case of the GM Denali XL and the Escalade, the split is 38%front and 62% rear with a viscous liquid center differential to deliver even more torque to the front axle when the rear slips. This center diff is combined with a rear limited slip differential which transfer torque to the wheel with the better traction on the rear axle.
For on road purposes, this is without question the best setup for traction. I say this from experience with 6 different vehicles having 4wd. The downside to the GM AWD system is a lack of 4wd lo, which if you go off-road should be taken into consideration. However of the 6 vehicles I've owned with 4wd, they all had 4wd lo and in 20 years I used Lo gear maybe 5 times. So for me the trade-off was inconsequential.
I think for most owners of 4wd vehicles it will be extraordinary rare that 4wd lo will ever be used or more importantly needed during the vehicles entire lifetime. Just my opinion.
I guess I just get frustrated with the lack of balance in your comments. While others concede good and bad points you go on about the cost of fixing your Sequoia when a tree hits it. You don't have a clue how much it would cost to fix your Yukon if it was hit instead of the Sequoia, so why make it a negative against the Sequoia?
"The total estimate to fix the minor damage was real close to $2,000. Not sure if that is because it is a Toyota and parts are expensive or the bill may have been that high with any vehicle."
Which I exactly say "ANY" vehicle could cost that much. Also, I have done NUMEROUS posts comparing the Toyota in a non-biased way to (my then) Yukon. Even going so far as to saying things I liked about the Toyota over the Yukon. Just because I don't get on here tooting my Toyota horn every other post like you do doesn't make my postings untruthful or non-valuable.
The tire point is a good one. In fact, I wish I'd have thought of that about three months ago. We ordered a VW 4Motion Passat Wagon yesterday and are trading the Sequoia in on it.
At this point, we can not wait to get rid of the Toyota. I do understand that we are only ONE dissatisfied owner out of many happy Sequoia drivers. It's funny how many of the same problems I posted about have been posted by others as well. Missing roof rack covers, abnormally loud grinding in the traction control, the poor stereo, etc. I guess these are all just things that we are not willing to live with in a $38K+ SUV.
In the Denali XL there is no sensational of 4wd nor does it have any of the binding that occurs in most 4wd systems when engaged, due to the viscous liquid center differential and open front differential. Having owned previous 4wd system, many of the older systems typically could not be operated in "dry" conditions because of the binding of the front axle when negotiating turns.
What seems unusual about the Toyota system is that with open differentials in the middle, rear and front the benefit is the smooth negotiating of turns because an open diff cannot bind. The downside is that an open differential will ALWAYS force available torque to the axle/tire with the LEAST traction. This is an important difference from the approach taken by most 4wd systems.
That's why most manufacturer's use a limited slip differential or in serious off-road conditions a locking differential to ensure the torque is either evenly divided or forced to the tire with the MOST traction.
Toyota seems to have engineered around the open diff traction problem (if I understand it correctly) by using the abs system to stop/inhibit the rotation of tires loosing traction thereby forcing the torque to be transferred to either a different axle or opposite side tire. I believe this is the noise that Sequoia owners hear as the computer rapidly pumps hydraulic fluid to different brakes at alternating corners (even though the brake pedal hasn't been touched) and ends up forcing the torque to a tire that is not slipping by transferring torque through the open differentials.
This would be the reverse engineering of how a limited slip differential works and instead of transferring power to the tire that has the best traction, Toyota's system instead tries to prevent the torque from being lost by braking other tires that are slipping, forcing the torque back to the tire(s) with the best traction.
This is certainly a different approach to 4wd however it still requires delay from a typical awd setup where you have "guaranteed" torque to a tire at all times without delays caused by the transfer of power in traditional setups or delays caused by the rapid braking of other wheels to prevent the loss of torque in the Toyota setup.
Toyota's approach is certainly unique if I've described it correctly and yet to be proven by other manufacturer's attempting similar setups.
To answer your questions:
"Are you saying that the Hummer is a UNPROVEN truck?"
No, the Hummer is quite proven and significantly different from the 4wd system in the Toyota.
"However, can AWD guarantee torque or traction with no time delay?"
Yes, there is no delay because in an AWD system the torque starts at a wheel and remains there to its minimum. In the case of the Denali, there is a minimum 38% torque delivered to the front axle under ALL circumstances and it cannot go below that minimum, therefore there is no time to transfer anything. Other vehicles with AWD will work on similar principles (with different technologies) that deliver a minimum torque to the front, with the ability for torque to increase, as needed, by transferring it from the rear.
"Does the GM system have a limited-slip diff in the front?" If you're referring to the Denali system the answer is no. ANY 4wd system designed to operate at highways speeds in dry conditions MUST have an open diff in the front in order to avoid "tearing up" the front drivetrain when negotiating turns.
4wd systems that have limited slip or locking front differentials will instruct the user to only engage those systems in "wet" or slippery conditions (or under very slow speeds such as rock climbing and off-roading) to enable the road to provide the slippage for the drivetrain. These are the types of 4wd systems which give a sense of "binding" when negotiating tight turns on dry pavement. Although its possible a similar sensation could be felt in the Toyota system even with an open diff if the system were to brake one side or the other as it sensed slippage.
"Or is it simply a open diff with no traction control whatsoever?"
The Denali system is an open diff with no traction control to transfer torque to the other side on the front end, however because of the center diff design, if one of the front tires spins it will transfer torque to the rear axle down to its mimimum 38%. Once at the rear axle there is a limited slip diff to equalize torque from right to left. This indeed could be an advantage for the Toyota system's front end, although I remain unconvinced that using the ABS system to force torque across axles is the best approach for normal roadway conditions.
Given the concerns expressed by many users on this forum regarding noises, and unusual sensations, it would appear there are still alot of issues to be addressed before Toyota has a system that could be described as "no muss, no fuss" as in the GM, Audi and Subaru approaches to awd.
"Perhaps you don't notice any 4WD sensation in the Denali because the is no means of switching off the AWD, so there is no way to compare."
Actually, I am keenly aware of the feeling of different drivetrains on 4wd systems. As stated, I owned 2 previous 4wd systems from GM, 1 from Jeep and 2 from Nissan. The unique sensation about the current GM AWD system in the Denali is the fact that there is NO sensation. The additional front end traction is there at all times. You can turn the steering wheel as tight or as quick as you wish and you will have the exact same feeling as a vehicle with 2wd, even on dry pavement.
The real beauty of the system is that nothing needs to be engaged and when snowy or wet roads are encountered the vehicle just goes about its business with incredible traction and no noises or unusual sensations as a result of computers, pumps, brake activity or other gizmos needed to transfer power around the drivetrain. Its all simple mechanical physics delivering the best traction where needed.
While we have had little snow this year in the NJ area, I did have the opportunity to drive the Denali XL in heavy snow and very slippery conditions last winter and I can honestly tell you it was a pretty awesome sensation of traction, even in the worst of conditions. No 4wd system in the other vehicles I have owned even came remotely close to this vehicle's traction. In fact, even with 325horses under the hood it was very difficult to get the Michelin Cross Terrains to break free, even in completely snow covered roads.
Sorry for the long post, but awd vs 4wd is not a simple subject that can be explained in a sentence or two.
The dealer had a demo with 2K miles on it, cloth. It has the conven. pkg and alloy package. I am adding Leather at the Port in Boston, and my price is coming in at $36K. I am leasing, and with my trade, my lease payments are amazing. We are dumping a Chrysler T&C Minivan, that I should have never bought 2 years ago, and should have driven it off a cliff. Live and learn. This Truck is going to be PLUSH. I will report back what I thought when I take delivery next week. I called many many dealers around NH/ MA and no one is really willing to quote prices over the phone, and supplies for SR5's are very limited. I got really lucky.
Remind me please of the things you liked about the Sequoia over the Yukon.
I have offered many opinions about the not so good things about the Sequoia and have listed some things I like about the Yukon. I guess, unlike you, I'm happy with my Sequoia.
What do you mean by (then)Yukon?
The dislikes of the Sequoia you posted seem pretty minor (not happy with stereo, Piece falling off roofrack) and a matter of opinion compared to some of the serious issues I read on GM and other forums.
Maybe you'll come back and visit the forum here once in a while while we brag and wave our Toyota flags and how much we love our vehicles.
We had little snow this year in my part of PA, however, the couple of times that we got 4 or 5 inches I had to try to make the ActiveTrac portion of the system kick in. The Sequoia had great traction even with the stock Bridgestones. It simply rolled happily along going about it's business. When I wanted to test the ActiveTrac system, I had to come to a complete stop on a hill with a incline of about 45 degrees. I stepped on the gas and the Sequoia rolled up the hill with no noticable time delay. The system only kicked in long enough to get the Sequoia moving. Not a big deal at all. The only other time it kicked in was when I purposely goosed the truck to ellicit a response.
No 4WD or AWD system is perfect, but the Sequoia system is the best mix of all the systems while still retaining the best traits of all of them. IMHO.
While the GM system may be a fine system for on road needs, you would have to agree that it certainly lacks versatility. No 4WD low, no ability to switch to 2WD (this is not "beauty" to me), no VSC, and no way to lock the center diffetential.
No, the Sequoia is no Hummer,but the Denali AWD is no Sequoia 4WD either.
Thanks
I would say the Sequoia system is equal to and possibly better than the design of GM's "auto 4wd", although it is also more complex and I wonder about is function after 100K miles. Toyota makes a quality vehicle therefore I would certainly give its durability the benefit of the doubt but it is a new design for Toyota.
I also have little doubt that it operates exceptionally well in poor road conditions, however its my opinion that its a step down from true AWD. OTOH it's more versatile than GM's AWD which lacks 4wd lo. I personally see no upside to being able to disengage AWD to a 2wd mode, however I would also say it was a question I raised myself. Having now driven it for 14 months I would say there is no advantage to operating in 2wd when awd is available.
The VSC is an advantage in the Sequoia over the Denali however Cadillac offers its own system "Stabilitrak" in the Escalade combined with the same AWD system in the Denali.
While I understand your ardent support for the Sequoia, I think you would have to admit given the concerns expressed on this forum, that the design needs further work. No design should create the kinds of questions raised about "grinding noises" and "unsettling handling" that I've read on this forum. Likewise the absence of a limited slip diff in the rear of the Sequoia is a "cost savings" maneuver on Toyota that would have resulting in a much better setup had they at least offered one as an option.
In the end, I would agree that, once the bugs are worked out, the approach Toyota has taken on 4wd, while complex, may produce a better result than the 4wd system from GM. However if you are not planning any off-road trips, AWD is still better than Sequoia's 4wd, IMO.
There's not a single performance category that the Denali XL doesn't excel over the Sequoia. Whether, its payload, tow capacity, slalom times, space, luxury features etc.
Therefore, I would definitely have to agree with your statement. The Sequoia is most assuredly no Denali XL:)
The VSC is morre than an advantage. VSC can save your life. The benefits of VSC have been shown in the Mercedes SUVs. The benefits of VSC more than outweight the ABS noise one gets under very slippery conditions under heavy acceleration. Similarly, I'd rather hear the ABS noise when braking on a slippery surface than have a conventional brake system without the noise.
I would agree, that owners need to be sure to have the brakes serviced regularly.