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Comments
Equal or possibly better than GM's auto 4WD? Now that's a joke. I owned a Chevy K1500. While it didn't have auto 4WD (THAT would have to have a delay), it did have GM's part-time 4WD. In this day and age it was a dinosaur. Talk about cost saving measures,GM adds a sensor to detect slippage in the rear and has the gall to refer to it as Auto 4WD.
And once again, the Denali XL and the Sequoia are not the same type of vehicle. Let's try to stick to the non-XL Denali when making comparisons.
By the way, have you watched the news and seen those old Toyota trucks that the Afghanis drive all over that mountainous desert? Can you imagine the killing GM could have made in spare parts sales over there? I know my K1500 wouldn't have made it across the border without a trip to the dealership.
Reposted:
Has anyone had a problem getting their new Sequoia out of park? It's annoying but sometimes I have to pump the brake before the gearshift releases from park in order to get it into drive. At first I thought maybe I'm not pulling the gear shift straight back or not depressing the brake pedal far enough while attempting to shift into drive. Is this a safety feature which may need an adjustment?
Also on your awd, does the ratio between front and back stay the same? If it does that would be a disadvantage at times. If it doesn't and the % changes there would be a slight delay while that happens wouldn't there?
I don't think it's fair to say that awd is superior to 4wd. Usually awd is reserved for station wagons isn't it:)
pschreck: All of my references to performance have been on the subject of "on-road" performance. I think I've acknowledged quite clearly that there is some advantage to the Sequoia in having 4wd lo for off-road use over a DXL. I have also pointed out that most owners of a Sequoia will never go off-road....have you?
With all due respect to your limited experience with GM 4wd vehicles, I think I can speak much better than you regarding their reliability having owned three of them. In nearly 300,000 miles driven in three 4wd Suburbans, not once...I repeat not once, in 15 years has any of my 3 4wd Suburbans ever not started for me or left me stranded. Would I have liked the brake pads to have lasted longer than 15K on the older models?... you bet. The brake pads on my 2001 Denali XL have 17,000 and were just inspected...they have less than 5% wear on them.
I don't know what year your Chevy K1500 was, but there is no comparison to a 2002 Tahoe or an '02 Sequoia. The Auto 4wd system in the GM's will have a miniscule time lag for torque transfer, just as the torque transfer in Toyota's 4wd setup. Go from dry to slippery pavement at speed in either vehicle and you most definitely will feel the shift of torque. A sensation you will not experience in a AWD vehicle.
The Sequoia uses electronics to brake a spinning wheel and the GM Auto4wd uses a limited slip diff to transfer torque to a wheel that's not spinning. Both must "transfer" torque. In the regular GM 4wd mode and in the AWD system, of all manufacturer's, there is a pre-determined amount of torque delivered to both axles without the need to transfer torque or to prevent its transfer as in the case of the Toyota or when the GM is set to auto4wd.
While you may not think the Sequoia and Denali XL are like vehicles... I do, as do car magazines doing comparison testing. You compare vehicles as you see fit, as will I.
714 cut: as stated earlier, the ratio remains the same 38/62 on the Denali AWD system until the rear slips sending more power to the front. Of course there is a time lag on ANY system that must transfer torque. The best bet is to not have to transfer it to start with, which is the principle behind awd.
In the end, it remains my opinion and I believe the opinion of most people familar with 4wd systems, that for on-road performance AWD is superior to 4wd. If you need the flexibility of 4wd lo for serious off-roading, you might be better off in a vehicle that offers a more traditional 4wd system.
pschreck: while you appear somewhat loose and free with your derogatory remarks regarding GM vehicles, at least they're owner's are not stuck in some parking lot with a vehicle that can't get out of park like fsw98 and his Sequoia:)
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Now if Toyota can just manufacture enough stereo amplifiers to get my replacement off backorder, I will be *totally* pleased....
I have owned a 1995 Blazer 4WD, a 1997 Astro AWD, and a 1996 K1500 4WD, all of which were crap. Not just for their drive systems, but also for their reliability and fit and finish. It took me far to long to conclude that GM is turning out crap almost as fast as Chrysler. I believe that I've earned the right to say anything I please about GM.
Have I taken it off road yet? No. But I can. Can you take the Denali off road? Can you pull anybody out of a snow bank or out of a ditch. Not bloody likely. AWD, as stated earlier by another member, is for station wagons like my wifes Outback.
How much more maintenance is required for a 4WD vehicle? The plan would be to purchase the car and drive for 7-8 years. Toyota's are usually reliable but am afraid that their high-tech 4WD system might impose some maintenace issues in the long haul. Any input???
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Does anyone know if Toyota has any plans to update the Sequoia. I am mostly interested in the interior because I like a little more luxury styling like that of a Landcruiser (i.e., wood trim, gear shifter on the center console, etc.)
Also, what is a reasonable price to pay for the Sequoia, how much over dealer invoice? I have heard $1000 over.
Thanks in advance.
Cliffy, do you know whether the 2002 LC has a locking diff over other gears--it also uses the the sequoia 4WD traction system as I understand it.
The Trooper's 4wd also is not AWD, as there is no power to the front wheels until the rear wheels slip, THEN the torque is transfered to the front wheels. IF you seek some level of power to all four wheels at all times, your only choice is AWD. Obviously it has served Subaru, Audi, BMW, MB, Volvo and GM well when considering the the high quality vehicles that benefit from the extra traction "on the road". Don't be surprised if the Sequoia comes out with an AWD version next.
Of course, then you guys will be telling the rest of the world why AWD is better than 4wd, simply because its installed on a Sequoia:)
maybe you should do some homework yourself
Next, please remember that the Sequoia CAN function as an AWD. It is safe to put it in 4WD and leave it there. The Sequoia 4WD system gives you the option.
Would you mind sharing any source that supports your view "The trooper gives 15% to the front at all times in 4WD and the TOD unit partitions more in response to slippage conditions." If the trooper delivers a % of torque to the front tires at ALL times and can be operated at all speeds and on any road condition...then yes...I would agree the system meets the definition of AWD as it was defined by Audi, the mainstream originator. If it does not deliver some torque at all times than it is a transfer torque system, that works on the same principles with different technologies, as the Sequoia system, the GM 4wd Auto system and a half dozen other dry road 4wd systems.
There is nothing special about the Denali awd or any awd system, however for most people that will never go off-roading, it remains a better traction system that a system than one that requires torque to be transferred. Obviously the experts at Audi, BMW, Porsche, MB, GM, Subaru agree since all of their systems provide minmum torque to the front tires at all times ranging from 20-40%.
cliffy: <double sigh> For a guy that professes to know everything, you appear off-base lately. First your inaccurate statement that there's no limited slip diff in a Hummer and now the fact that the Sequoia can operate in 4wd mode in all circumstances qualifies as AWD.
If that were the case than just about every manufacturer making a 4wd vehicle could claim their system is AWD. The GM 4wd Auto system can also be left in 4wd mode permanently, yet I would no qualify it as AWD. In the same way the Sequoia system does not qualify as AWD.
b) you failed to read my post
c) you posted false information
I said TOD sends power to the front prior to rear wheel slippage (you said 'there is no power to the front wheels until the rear wheels slip' feel free to read your articles and I can direct you to other sources...but I don't think you bothered to read your own)
How is it that 15% is going to the front...and gpm5 knows this...because if you have actually driven one with TOD engaged you would know by the illumination bars...but instead you just want to spew forth false info...especially on the wrong forum.
dielectic7bb: with all due respect
1) This is absolutely the right forum I was seeking to engage in. Where else could I go to find so many guys is such desparate need of assistance in understanding how their own vehicles work:) (I can hear the screams now, take your medication before replying or the hosts will surely delete your post:)
2) I read your post perfectly well
3) I posted perfectly accurate information and provided sources of data to support the comments. The fact that the TOD shows a bar lit up (which BTW is an excellent idea that I wish was in the Denali) is to just show the driver the system is activated.
I've checked multiple sites including Izusu's and Borg-Warner's and they only stated the torque is transferred as the vehicle senses slippage. There is not one source of data that suggests the Borg-Warner TOD setup (which is an excellent design, IMO) provides anything more than a 0/100% torque distribution from front/rear until slippage is detected. Then torque is transferred.
Show me a source or even cite a manufacturer's brochure that suggests otherwise and I will gladly acknowledge my error on this system.
AWD with limited slip diffs remains the best mode of traction for road handling capabilities in slippery conditions. All of the other full-time 4wd approaches are compromises in order to achieve cost, weight or off-road advantages over an AWD design. None of the designs however can match the road-handling capabilities of a system that starts with the torque already at a tire versus a setup that starts with 0% and needs to transfer it from another tire.
1) If ran in the 2WD mode, will the SUV act exactly like the 2WD model without moving any of the 4WD components?
2) Does the 4WD system require a significant amount of extra routine maintenance?
3) How reliable are these 4WD systems? The last thing I want is to pay the extra $3K for 4WD, only use this system at most 2x/year for 8 years and have an expensive problem. The system sounds complicated and that there could be many things that could go wrong. Is it safe to say that this should not be an issue with the limited amount I will be using the 4WD?
4) What do you think the difference in resale value will be with between the 2WD & 4WD Sequoia after 8 years/120K miles?
Even if you end up buying the Sequoia, you won't regret that you took the time to compare it. My guess is you'll end up with the GMC if you take the two for a test drive:)
http://www.autoworld.com/news/Isuzu/Torque.htm
This site even gives a diagram of how TOD reacts and indicates one bar means 15% to the front and the bar will disappear if the front wheels begin to slip. I don't know if this is true or not but I don't think that the first bar simply indicates whether the system is on or not, that seems to be the reason for the auto indicator.
The other site is Isuzu itself in their isuzuology section
http://www.isuzu.com/inside_isuzu/isuzuology/index.html
if you click on the TOD link (and can stomach the dorky joe isuzu stuff) and click on the sun, it states "TOD stays the course by directing MOST of the torque to the rear wheels." I don't know if that translates to 15% to the front, but considering this is on the Isuzu website, and from the other site I mentioned, it seems reasonable to believe 15% goes to the front under normal conditions.
Heatwave: I have owned two 1999 Chevrolet Suburban K1500's with the "automatic" 4WD. Put lots of miles on them in all kinds of weather, on and off road.
AWD and Full time 4WD systems are the same -- they drive all 4 wheels all the time. Driving characteristics are irrelevant for the definition.
Question for you: Does the Denali use a center diff and a viscous coupling or just a viscous coupling?
Heatmiser: The Sequoia 4WD drivetrain and the Land Cruiser drivetrain are the same -- except that the Sequoia allows 2WD operation whereas the Land Cruiser is full time 4WD only. The durability of the Land Cruiser drivetrain is legendary. 2WD moves only the rear drive components. No special maintenance is required other than an oil change for the front and center differentials when the automatic transmission is serviced and remembering to engage 4WD every month or so to keep things lubricated. Generally speaking, a 4WD vehicle is more desirable and will hold its value better. Get the 4WD, you won't regret it, and you might find that you will use it more than you think. Southern CA roads and highways can get pretty greasy in the rain.
"The Trooper's 4wd also is not AWD, as there is no power to the front wheels until the rear wheels slip, THEN the torque is transfered to the front wheels. IF you seek some level of power to all four wheels at all times, your only choice is AWD."
The Trooper puts 15% power to the front wheels and 85% to the rear wheels. As you know, I own a Trooper and am very involved with Isuzus. The torque split on a Trooper is 15/85 and can vary it up to 50/50 as conditions warrant. Let's not get into a Peeing contest over this.
-mike
Community Leader of Isuzu Owners Club on Edmunds
http://isuzu-suvs.com
However, the references to a single bar suggesting 15% of the torque is delivered to the front wheels and the observations by Trooper owner's suggesting that one bar is always lit would suggest the system does deliver some power to the front wheels under all circumstances. As I stated if someone could show me some info I would gladly stand corrected. As k2rm was kind enough to do. I stand corrected.
The Sequoia system remains a system seeking slippage in order to initiate power to the front wheels. By most definitions that would not qualify as an awd system.
2heeldrive: the Denali uses a viscous liquid center differential to transfer power above the 38% minimum to the front wheels from the rear wheels.
Subarus with automatic transmissions don't send traction to the rear wheels except on accelleration and in the case of rear wheel slippage.
-mike
As explained to us, the torque is transfered to the rear when accelerating from a stop and when the FRONT wheels slip.
Sorry for misspeaking and saying rear wheels heatwave.
-mike
Click on All Wheel Drive, then specifications, then drivetrain.
You'll find that the WRX and the Outback (automatics) have a VTD AWD system which on normal road conditions delivers 45% torque to the front wheels and 55% to the rear. It then redistributes the torque from this baseline to the tires that have the best traction through various systems including viscous liquid diffs, limited slip diffs and electronic sensors in different models. All of their manual vehicles have a system that starts with a 50/50 split of the torque to the front and rear.
The other automatic systems in their less expensive models provide a continously variable distribution of torque, however they don't list the power distribution under dry conditions.
I think their descriptions provide a good explanation for the basis of why AWD is differentiated from full time 4wd systems by whether or not there is power to all wheels under "normal" road conditions. For manufacturer's looking to optimize the performance of their vehicles such as Porsche, BMW, Subaru, GM and Audi with the use of AWD, they have designated a minimum torque distribution to each corner for normal road conditions, with systems that then redistribute power as need based on the traction available at each corner of the vehicle.
Therefore my question to you cliffy is: what is the distribution of torque to the four corners of a Sequoia under normal driving conditions when 4wd is engaged?
Our dealer said it was to save fuel. He very nearly lost the sale because I wanted something with a more near 50/50 split for my wife and she won't drive a manual. A fine car, although we may look at a RAV 4 for her next time.
Thanks for correcting me.
-Paul
Also a note on the subaru AT system, 2000->2002 also use weight sensors to deteremine power distribution. (92->02) also use the ECU to learn when power should be shifted *before* it is needed. For example if after every complete stop you loose traction on the front wheels, the system will learn that after a complete stop, to apply more power to the rear wheels. Same goes for the TOD system.
-mike
cliffy: Funny you should interpret my asking a relevant question as not wanting to learn something. Last time I looked, thats the point of asking questions....to learn.
So why not share with us the split of torque under normal driving conditions in a 4wd Sequoia when its system is activated. I'd also be interested in the source of your information since Toyota doesn't share the torque distribution on their web site and I've not been able to find it anywhere else.
In all your responses I don't recall any answer to the specific question I asked. If you don't want to repeat yourself, just point me to the post of yours or the web source that outlines the torque distribution under normal road conditions?