Snow/Ice winter tires

cocomo

Does anyone here have any experience with these tires? I'm thinking of getting either the Hakka 1, Toyo Observe G-02 or Observe X-10 for my Protege 5, in 185/65R15 size.
Which one offers the best performance for Canadian winters? The tires will not be studded as studs are illegal here.
I'm looking for good snow/slush performance without sacrificing dry handling & noise too much.
Any suggestions will be appreciated.

guyf

For your Protege 5 you should go with the Hakka. The toyo are very soft shouldered and are not a good choice if you want to maintain your dry handling. A co-worker had Toyo's on his Golf and had them replaced as the car was all over the place with those tires. I drove another co-worker minivan with Toyo's and I tought the car dangerous to drive.

You should also consider the Blizzack.

cocomo

Which one of these Nokian tires should I get? How much different are they from each other?
Which Blizzak model do you recommend? I heard Blizzaks wear out pretty fast. Is it true?
Thanks.

drew_

The Bridgestone Blizzaks WS-50 are the newer generation ones. The WS-15 is good for heavier snow, but it doesn't ride or handle as well as the WS-50. That said though, the Blizzaks while good in snow, do wear quickly on dry pavement. Personally, I'd go with the Michelin Arctic Alpins since they offer Blizzak-like performance, but handle better in dry and wet conditions. Additionally, they also don't wear out as quickly on dry surfaces. That said though, you should remove these winter tires as soon as the winter season is over since their soft compound (which allows them to stick/grip very well on snow and ice) wears quickly.

I hope thie helps!

Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

guyf

It is true the Blizzaks do wear quickly on dry/hot pavement. As Drew mentioned, you want to wait as long as possible to install them in the fall and you want to take them out as soon as possible in the spring.

This being said, I have to disagree with Drew on the performance of the Michelins. They do handle dry asphalt better than the Blizzaks; in fact they are as good as most 4 seasons on dry pavement. However, they are certainly not as good as the Blizzaks on snow, sleet and ice. They tend to pack more and they dont have the sheer adhesion of the Blizzaks in those conditions. My Volvo S-70 is still on Michelin Alpins and so was my CR-V. As I mentioned earlier, I put Blizzaks on my Santa-Fe and wow; what incredible traction, braking and cornering on snow, ice, wet snow... Next tires on the Volvo will certainly be Blizzaks.

For the Hakkas, sorry cocomo, I can't help much. I know they are good tires but my earlier post was mainly to mention what I knew about the Toyo's. I would probably go for the NRW which is, I think, their latest design.

dudleyr

I have used the Blizzak WS-15 and the Artic Alpin, and agree with the above that the Alpin has much better dry handling with what I consider equel winter traction to the Blizzak. My Integra is unstoppable with either tire. I search for the deepest banks and go right through them - sometimes freaking out 4wd owners in the car with me.

I did find that the Alpins have one major weakness. They get there traction from sipes that are perpindicular to the direction of travel. This is excellent for braking and starting, but maybe not so good for lateral traction. My wife were driving 2 cars in 35-45 mph cross winds once, and she could not keep up with our minivan (wich had all-season tires) while driving the Integra with Alpins. She said the car just wanted to go sideways. I had been in wind before but never noticed this. Maybe the snow/ice was just the wrong temp It was just a little below freezing.

Last year I bought a tire by Yokohama called the Gaurdex 720 (for the minivan) and it seems to have much better dry handling than the Blizzak, and winter traction that is just as good. It uses micropores like the blizzak, and tons of sipes like the Alpin. The tread blocks are large to help with handling, and the micropores go all the way through - unlike the Bridgestone which is only 55%. I highly reccomend this tire. I will put this tire on my Integra when the Alpins wear out, or I might experiment with a pair of Hakka's.

hpulley4

I have never run with winter tires before and I've been OK with all seasons but this year I'm asking myself, why suffer with all seasons in the snow? But being a cheapskate, I'd like to ask, with FWD, is it OK to just get two rims and snow tires for the front? Is that dangerous? Is it much better to have snows on the rear too?

pulgo

I would strogly suggest you obtain 4 tires. When driving in ice and snow you won't be able to handle your car if you only get 2 tires for the front! What about your car's behaviour when you have to avoid an obstacle or turn? You would loose control quickly.

If you are concerned about cost, buy snow tires at Walmart (inexpensive) and obtain take off wheels from a business that deals in wheels. This would be much cheaper than your regular dealer.

An example: For my Toyota Echo I bought 4 wheels that way (NOT from Toyota). Toyota charges CAD$ 110 per wheel, I bought them at CECO Distributors in Vancouver for CAD$ 38 each (brand new).

dudleyr

If you only have 2 snows they must go on the rear tires otherwise the car will not be stable when you brake, and if they are on the rear they won't help you start - so you had better buy 4-tires. You will be happy you did. Remember you are saving your summer tires so really your only cost is the rims.

I bought take off rims for my Integra at the Acura dealer for $25 each. The dealer has no use for them and may give you a good deal. Tire rack also has good package deals. you can get 4 snows mounted and balanced on wheels for just over $300 for small tires (civic or corolla) to $400 for larger (Accord etc).

I did have two snows on front for a short while thinking I could handle it. Blizzaks in front and Pirelli P600's in back (not the all weather version you get at Sams, but the European ones that are summer only) There can hardly be any greater difference in snow traction than there was between these two tires. The Pirelli's were helpless in the snow even with front wheel drive. When I placed the Blizzaks on front the car would go like crazy, but when I had to stop suddenly the front would grip and the back would keep going and I would swing right around.

I can assure you that this manuever will cause a major decuction in style points!

hpulley4

Don't want to lose any style points, that's for sure. I'm convinced!

I was considering going to a wrecker for used rims but Canadian tire has fairly cheap winter rims ('starting' at $38 or so) so I guess I'll go there and get some Arctic Alpins as their house brand snow tires are only a few bucks cheaper per tire. Around here most roads are usually plowed well eventually so I think I'd wear Blizzaks in no time so it sounds like the Alpins would be better for my conditions.

heng

Studded tires are horrible on paved roads. Not only for the noise but your wet and dry road handling is severely compromised.

You will have to weigh the pros and cons.

r_scott_g

Last year, I bought 4 steel rims from Walmart. To amuse myself, I first called the dealership and they quoted a price of over $100. I then called the provincial insurance company's salvage yard and they quoted $75 a wheel for used. Walmart's price was $40 dollars, which was the best I found. They put them on sale for $35 after I bought them, so I took back my receipt and they credited me the difference.

This year I'm trying to decide if I'll mount winter tires on a seperate set of rims for our second car, mount them on the stock rims, or go with Nokian NRW's.

If I go with winter tires, I'll have to decide how much I'm willing to spend. I could go with a cheaper studded tire (Canadian Tire, Bridgestone Wintertrax, Walmart), or a non-studded tire. Alpins tend to go on sale at Canadian tire, while Blizzaks, Oberves, Q's tend to be more.

calg

We also live in Vermont and are driving in the same conditions you are... part dirt, hills, etc. We have always used studded Nokian Haka's on our sedans/wagons and had great luck with them. Unfortunately, we were told that we could not get studded tires for our Odyssey except for the Cooper tires. I am not familiar with the Cooper brand and am wondering if it is just better off to go with the Nokia Hakkapalita's without the studs than the brand we are not familiar with. I saw one post for an Odyssey owner in the Boston area who used a Michelin Artic Alpin so we will look into that one as well. Does anyone else out there own an Odyssey and use either the Michelin, Nokian, or Cooper tires for their winter driving?

r_scott_g

Does anyone know if the Magna Grip(studdable) tire that Wal-mart(at least in Canada) sells, is the same as the Goodyear Ultra Grip N. At Wal-mart, they said the Magna Grip was made by Goodyear, and the Ultra Grip (studdable), is the only tire that could be similiar. I haven't been to Walmart to look at the tread.

Thanks

cheech004

I think the best SUV tire for the money are the pirelli scorpion A/T's great on snow great in the rain, and excellent in dry, prices range from 69$ to 89$ depending were you buy them, check them out.

robr2

I'm the one with the Arctic Alpins on my Ody in Boston. Since the snow removal here is pretty good once commuting is over, the biggest issue was the need for snows for before the plows get out there.

The Aplins worked well on snow covered roads last year every time I had to go out and get a snowblower part in the middle of a storm!! The deepest I've gone is about 8" but the Ody has traction control so that helps. On cleared roads they handled very well and were fairly quiet. Someone else noted here that the design of the Alpins lend themselves to good dry road manners.

Studs are a no no here in MA so I can't offer help. I got mine at tirerack.com and they offer plenty of different options. I stuck with the 16" size for the Ody but I bet if you looked at 15" you'll find a better selection.

Good Luck

robr2

I just got an issue of their Winter 2001-2002 catalog and it is devoted entirely to snow tires.

Give them a call and have them send it out to you.

guyf

There was a winter tire comparision test in a french language buyers guide I just read (I'm from Quebec The Cooper came dead last on 20 or so snow tires evaluated.

Michelin and Nokian are much better choices.

calg

I will definitely look into the Michelins... they sound like a very good alternative to the studded Nokian's we have used on our other vehicles. I wonder why the studs are not available on the size tire the Ody uses?

woodyr1

Hi:

Which Cooper tires did the magazine test review refer to? Was it the Weathermaster or Wintermaster?

Thanks, as I have been quoted a price on the Cooper tires, and was considering spending a bit more money for dedicated, directional winter tires, such as the Yokohama Geolander I/t's

norcan

Does anyone have experience with Pirelli snow tires? I drive a Protege ES with 16" Dunlops on alloys. My dealer sells the Pirellis - the tires are Winter Ice 195-55-15 Assym., with rims $700 CDN installed. They said the rims are $65 ea. because of larger brakes on the 2001 model, otherwise would be $30.Their price on tires is the same as an Canadian e-tire site I checked out. My other question is how do you tell the rims will fit your car?

guyf

I think the Coopers tested were the Wintermasters. Anyway, it was not a 4 season tire but a winter tire.

I once had a set of Pirelli Winter Ice Asym on a Honda CR-V. They were excellent on Ice and asphalt but tended to pack with snow. After 2 winters, about 40,000 kms, they were gone.

norcan

Thanks for the info, I don't put on very many klicks so wear probably isn't an issue.

robynk

Hi again,

I am leaning strongly toward getting the Bridgestone Winter Duellers for my Sequoia but am a bit concerned about the wear issue, as we do put a lot of miles on our vehicle (almost 2K/month) and I would really prefer not to have to buy new winter tires every year or two!

How quickly do the Bridgestones wear? We do about half dirt roads and half pavement driving. I think we have ruled out studs as we plan to drive to Ontario this winter, and studs are not allowed there. (Also MA? I didn't think that was the case, but we do drive to MA a lot too.)

What about "mud season" in the spring? I think the snows would be better than our (original equipment) all seasons in the serious mud we have to deal with, but that has to be weighed against wearing out the snows on the warming pavement.

Thanks again,
--RobynK

robr2

Studs are allowed in MA from November 1 to April 30. I thought they weren't either so I double checked on their website (massrmv.com).

Are studs really needed? I realize they help on ice, but do they do much when driving on packed snow?

As for the Bridgestones, I don't have any personal experience. The two people I knew who used them were on the road sales reps and both seemed to get 2 years max out of Bridgestones. But keep in mind they also drove 30-40K per year.

akangl

I live in Alaska and drive a lot, even in the winter. I had a friend a couple winters ago recommend Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice snow tires. I am on my second winter with them and have to say I am very impressed. Here in Alaska the roads are dry most of the winter, but when they get bad they get really bad. The tires hold up better then the Bridgestone Blizzaks that I used to use and are much quieter. Just one more studless snow tire to consider.

guyf

I have one winter with these (about 10,000 miles) and they show very little wear. I'm sure they will be good for at least 3 winters. To have good traction on ice without studs you need a soft rubber compound. Michelin and Pirelli ice tires I used previously were wearing as fast or even faster than the Bridgestones. I also heard good things about the Good-Year ultragrips but I have not used them myself. With all those tires; you have to wait as much as possible to put them on in the fall and you remove them ASAP in the spring. Mine are on a second set of rims, so I can do it myself within 1 hour at the first serious snow.

robynk

Our local tire sales people are recommending studs for us given our usual driving conditions (a lot of miles on dirt roads that end up with a base of ice all winter).

I am leaning toward Bridgestones but would really like to get 3 winters (approx 30,000 miles) out of one set -- I don't know if that is realistic or not.

On the Blizzak-type tires, once you wear down the 55% special compound, do you have to replace the tire, or does it just degrade to standard snow tire performance, or what? Could I get them studded at that point?

Thanks,
--RobynK

robynk

I have one more question....

www.tirerack.com is where I found the Winter Duelers supposedly the right size for my Sequoia (2001 SR5 4x4). However all the winter tires they recommended for my vehicle are 245/75-16's and the tires on my vehicle now are actually P265/70R16 111's.

Neither Bridgestone nor Goodyear appears to make a winter tire in a 265/70-16 size.

Can I use the 245/75's? on my existing rims??

Thanks!

--RobynK

maple

This is a little more on the truck/suv side, but do B. F. Goodrich All Terrain KO's work as good as marketed "snow tires" do in the snow and ice?

yukon26575

these tires work incredible in snow. I've went through three sets on my trucks already and continue to stay loyal. I've driven them through 18 inches of unplowed snow without a problem. Get them and you won't be sorry, but remember, they are truck tires. If you have one of the more carlike suv's they will stiffen your ride, but at least you won't get stuck.

varig

Last year was the 1st year I had ever mounted dedicated snow tires on my FWD car. Since I had a 15 year old car, I had few choices in which snow tire the TireRack had. I ended up with Blizzak (WS50 I believe). I was very impressed. Although most of the winter we are dry, we do have about 4 snows a season. It usually starts as rain then freezing rain, then snow. So we have more problems with ice than anything else. The Blizzaks did great last year. I vowed I'd never go another winter without dedicated snows. I'm a new Audi Quattro owner. My current tires are Z rated sport tires on 17" wheels. I know that I will need either 15" or 16" wheels for the snow tires. But which snow tires to buy? Should I stay with Blizzaks or try the Michelins? Are the "ice" tires that TireRack has really better than balanced snow/ice tires? How much snow handling will I sacrifice with "ice" tires? What about Nokian Hakkas? It's already November and I'm getting nervous. Help !

guyf

Yes you can use 245-75 instead of 265-70 for winter. In snow and slush, a narower tire actually works better.

Yes, after the Blizzaks are worn down to 50%, they act like a regular winter tire, but you cannot have them studded at that point.

Varig, with only 4 snows a year and an AWD car, you could go with Michelin or Pirelli ice tires. They handle dry asphalt a little better than the Blizzaks but are not quite as good in snow. They are all very close on ice. The Hakkas are more of a snow tire than ice.

turbo_guy

I just purchased a set of four 215/75X15 Firestone Winterfire's from the TireRack (www.tirerack.com) for $218 including shipping. These are going on my 2002 Ford Ranger Extended Cab 2WD limted slip axle truck for the upcoming Detroit area winter.

I had seriously considered the Bridgestone Winter Dueler DM-Z2's but they were over $120 more for the set. Jake, at the TireRack, checked the specs between the two and the Winterfire's had just slightly less snow traction capability than the DM-Z2's and were equal in all other areas. His recommendation for the money was the Winterfire's.

Now on the size issue: narrower is better in the snow. If you look around on the net you can find several tire size comparison sites. Even go to TireRack and check the specs of a tire line and you can see the differences between different sizes.

In my case, the tires that came on my truck are 225/70X15's. I went with the 215/75X15's because they are slightly narrower. Load range is the same and the diameter is so close to not be a problem with the engine control computer. I essentially went to a minus-size tire - narrower tread width for better snow driving but the same overall diameter to eliminate driveability issues as a result of using a tire that is too tall/too short for the engine management to compensate for.

Even though the DM-Z2 may be a better tire than the Winterfire, they are both winter tires and any one of them will be far superior in the snow than my stock Firestone Wilderness HT's.

ricko2

I have scoured this discussion group and the net for first hand info on the Toyo Observe winter tire and found very little information. My local dealer in Calgary, Alberta highly recommends the Toyo OBSERVE GP-4 for my 2000 Honda Odyssey. Tirerack does not mention it and Consumer Reports apparently did not test it.

It sounds like a great tire - those little ground up walnut shells for ice traction and unidirectional tread design for snow traction.

Has anyone out there tried the Toyo Observe or has buddies that have?

Thanks very much.

luck11

I put the Arctic Alpins on my AWD Subaru Outback. Going into my 3rd winter and love these tires. With the AWD, I have not encountered any adverse weather conditions that could hinder my traction.

I had Coopers and Pirellis on previous vehicles and was not impressed at all. In fact, my Pirellis developed cracks on at the base of the outer treads. Pirelli rep was no help.

I had Bridgestones WT-04s at one point...also a very good tire, but this was several generations ago.

For Cdns, you can get the Artic Alpins at Canadian Tire....watch for the sale when they have the 2nd tire half price. I got mine through this sale 1st week of Jan a couple of years ago, but have seen the sale on sooner. Check their e-flyer each week at http://www.canadiantire.ca.

vaskelovo

Hi,
For moderate snow belt dwellers
( I'm in Boston, MA): what are your experiences w/faster winter tires ?
Has anybody tried Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice at fast speeds on highway ?
Actually, T rating would suffice for me, but I'd rather have above Q.
My 80% driving is dry roads, but the driveway is steep, icy, and rarely
free of snow. So I was looking at Dunlop Winter Sports, Nokian Hakka 1's, and Pirellis
Some of them don't even come in 50 profile:
55 is the smallest for 16 in.- not much performance then, also 205 is the narrowest,
has anyone seen a 195 in 16 in. winter tire ?
Any comments appreciated.

robr2

Why such a wide profile (50 series)? The narrower the tire, the better off you are in snow.

Check out tirerack.com. I happened to have a catlog in front of me and they have Pirelli's in 50 series but not 195/16. Pirelli's are offered down to 40 series and V ratings in some sizes. But be prepared to break the bank!!!

akangl

Tonight I traded in my 01 Jetta GLS 1.8T that had Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice tires on it. I usually drove between 75 and 80 mph when the roads were good in the winter with it. The tires seemed to do fine and had great traction. Hope this helps.

vaskelovo

Also , did anybody use Michelin X M+S 330's ?
This is an H-rated tire, is it an older version of Pilot Alpin ?

akangl, thanks for Goodyear info, have you ever
taken them beyond 100mph on a dry hwy ?
( I would like to have that option in a winter tire )

akangl

No, I think the fastest I ever took them was 90 on a dry highway. I didn't like to push them. They were great winter tires, but had their limits in the corners.

sylak

HI i live in quebec canada and we always got a lot of snow each winter and i'm always on the road. So i was wondering what would be the best tire. I was thinking about Nokian hakka 1 or Q. i own a 92 VW golf with 175/70 R13 ( i run on Pirelli P3000 195/60 R14 in Summer... i think it's a 4 seasson tire?) I know that Nokian are expensive but i heard the last longer that, for exemple, Blizzak that cost nearly the same.

Thank

ob11

Just ordered a set of Dunlop DS-1's for my 02 Outback. I will keep you posted as to how they perform...if it snows.

ricko2

Well, I rolled the dice a bit after not hearing much about Toyo Observe GP-4 from other forum members. I put them on steel rims on a 2000 Odyssey EX just a few days ago and it has snowed a fair bit since then. My impressions are positive. The tire handles well on dry pavement and at speed (went as fast as 120km/hr). On ice and snow, the tire provides excellent traction (much much better than the stock Michelin Symmetry). I went with the Toyo because I believe it will last somewhat longer than the Blizzak and I think it provides better snow and ice traction than the Alpin (based on a friend's experience). I hope this helps others thinking of snow tires.

mikeg61

I live in Metrowest. In the past I've had Gislaveds, Vredesteins, and Blizzaks. They were all pretty lousy on dry pavement. For my new Passat, I went with Semperits from Discount Tire (free shipping, too). They're made in France by a subsidiary of Continental and are R speed rated. The issue with snows is the compound is a lot softer than the usual all-season tires, so I don't usually push them too long. I've had them up around 90 or so out on 495 with no issues at all. These are the best I've had in the dry. Now we need to get some white stuff to see how they handle that.

mbbenz

I am assuming you are from Mass. I am too. I also just bought a set of snows mounted on steel wheels at Discount Tire Direct (free shipping too). However I went with the Yokohama Guardex F720. let me know how you like your Semperit. The guy did persuade me get those but I opted for the Yokos.

woodyr1

Has anyone has any experience the Yokohama Geolander I/t's? Any comments?

Thanks

ginto

I've also put Toyo GP-4's on an Odyssey. I originally wanted to go minus-1, but the dealer said the brake clearance didn't allow me to go to 15" wheels. So the tires/wheels are the same size as stock, 215/65 on 16" steel rims.

I've noticed that the Toyo's seem softer than the OEM Michelin Symmetry's, even pumped up to 35psi (I prefer better handling over smoother ride), and just a bit noisier. With the mild weather we've had so far (no snow and it's Dec!), I can't say how good these are on snow/ice, but when the white stuff hits I'll report back.

ob11

I just got back from a little ride around in my Outback with the subject tires. We got 2-3 inches of heavy/slushy snow last night and I thought a coffee run would let me check the tires out. They were very good in this type of snow. I only really got them to spin when I stopped in the middle of a 5-6% incline, and then started with greater than usual throttle. Even then the rear slid out a little but the car kept making forward progress under heavy throttle. Detected no slippage under engine braking and a very minimal controlled slid before ABS took over under panic stop braking. On wet roads the tires seem to have better traction than the stock Potenza RE 92's, but they handle worse as the car rolls more and under steers in just about all situations. They do make a lots of weird road noise too! Can't wait for the deep stuff!

johnnnyc

After buying myself a 2002 MB ML320, I've decided to pick up an extra set of rims and get some winter tires as well.

People have been trying to talk me out of it - since I'm in NYC, and the snow here during the winter isn't exactly a regular occurrence. The thing is - after spending so much money with the concentration being safety and security - wouldn't I want to go the extra $500-700 to add a set of winter tires and make the hazardous weather that much safer?

It looks like I've got a choice of winter tires, as follows:

Nokian Haakepellita
Dunlop Winter Sport M2
Bridgestone Blizzak Winter Dueler
Michelin 4x4 Alpin

Anyone have any experience with the above? They're all in the same price range (the stock tire size on the 2001 rims I bought is 255/65R16) - ranging from $104 to 124 per tire.

The Bridgestones should be a bit more expensive, if you consider the fact that the winter tire compound that gives them their winter kick covers only 55% of the tire. After that - you're looking at a general purpose all weather tire. In NYC, winters range from no snow, to bunches, to no snow again - so the wear rate for this tire here would be ridiculous.

The Nokians are intriguing - but they're almost impossible to find here, and I'm inclined not to order online, just in case there's a problem with the tire.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
-John