Are gas prices fueling your pain?

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Comments

  • rubicon3rubicon3 Member Posts: 4
    Are there people out there actually considering buying a hybrid car? Are you guys clinically retarded or what? How much do you think you're actually gonna save?

    Let me illustrate.. I took a previous poster's numbers of 47 mpg and compared it to what I'm getting with my 06 Camry which is about 30 mpg. If gas prices hit $6 a gallon, this means I will be paying 1 dollar per 5 miles while the other person will be paying 1 dollar per 7.8 miles. So if we both drive 1000 miles I will pay $200 while the other person will pay $128.20. That's a difference of $72 dollars. So people here are justifying buying a brand new car on which, mind you, they will need to make monthly payments, to save a mere $72?? If you can't think of a better way to save $72 a month (or $18 a week) than to buy a brand new car then go back to freaking grade school please.....

    I'm tried of hearing all this paranoia... At least that's what I thought it was until i realized most people have no number sense at all...
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    That was mostly true about 3 years ago.

    Today, with far more "average joe" Americans rather than just the "hollywood elite" buying hybrids, it's not really an applicable stereotype any longer.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "I am surprised they are allowed to do that, your typical merchant agreement forbids that practice."

    You are absolutely correct - they cannot charge you for using a CC. So they offer a "cash discount" if you don't use a CC.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Since the average driver puts about 15K miles on a car, that's $1080 savings in gas per year. That adds up fast mi amigo.

    And who cares about "payback" anyway? Is there a "payback period" for buying leather seats instead of cloth seats? Payback time for chrome wheels rather than standard alloy is what time frame? What about that upgraded 400 watt stereo versus the standard 150 watt model? Payback time for an XLE versus an LE Camry is how long exactly?

    How many cents a mile are those leather seats or chrome wheels paying you?

    What other car is paying you money in comparison to others cars for every mile you drive it? Maybe some of the new clean diesels so that. But only those and hybrids.

    There are and will continue to be a lot of hybrids sold in the USA. Mostly just to us clinically retarded doofuses, maybe? LOL
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "What is the frequency of having to replace the batteries and at what cost?"

    It is a good question, and there are forums specifically for that issue.

    So far there have been very few failures, and the batteries are warranted for 10 yrs / 150K miles (CARB states).

    There have been a couple (and I mean that literally) of reports on these forums of battery pack failure - in the past 8 years - and the cost was around $3000 to replace.

    Of far more worry are the electronics - if they go, it can be really expensive. This is generally true of all cars, but hybrids have more computer controls. For example, if the navigation screen goes out on the Prius, it simply won't run until it is fixed. If the Nav goes on a conventional car, you simply don't have the nav / stereo.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You may have been asleep these past 5 yrs but the NiMH batteries that are in all the hybrids, Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM and Nissan can last the life of the vehicle with no effort whatsoever.

    Essentially no replacement is ever needed within a reasonable lifespan such as 12-18 years.

    That was a fear of the original skeptics back in 2001. That fear has been put to rest except for the recalcitrant few.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,133
    Not sure I follow your #s. Here's an example, 50,000 miles:
    Gallons at 47 mpg: 1063
    Gallons at 30 mpg: 1667
    Difference: 603 gallons
    Value at $6/gallon: $3618
    Value at $4/gallon: $2412
    So a hybrid certainly pays at today's gas prices, for this example.

    Hint - anytime you think a large group of people are "clinically retarded", check your math!
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "I'm tried of hearing all this paranoia... At least that's what I thought it was until i realized most people have no number sense at all..."

    I didn't buy mine specifically because it would save that much over the near term. However, if I keep it to the length of the battery warranty (10 years, 150K), it will probably pan out.

    I got mine because I wanted it, and it gets almost twice the city FE of my previous SUV.

    I think I calculated - in my case - that gas would have to get to $8 per gallon to break even at 100K, but then that may well come to pass.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    While we're at it that 30 mpg on a Camry is not a mixed driving number so the difference in fuel costs will be greater.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Not when you also consider the cost premium over a similar sized non-hybrid....A Civic or Prius Hybrid is $23-$25k depending on options. I can get a regular Corolla, Civic, or Elantra for $16-$17k. How long is it going to take me to save $6000 in gas, especially driving 90% highway

    I'm sorry but again that is the wrong comparo. It fails because the logical extention of this argument leads to this statement. Every vehicle on the road is a bad decision because you can always walk for free.

    The regular Corolla or Civic or Elantra for $16-$17K is also a bad decision because a new Yaris or used Camry or a bicycle is a less costly means of transportation. The reason that these comparo's fail is that you are not comparing equals.

    The obvious comparo in the opposite direction is that every hybrid on the road now is a far better decision than any Aston Martin or Ferrari.

    The only thing that can be said is that the hybrids fall somewhere between walking or bicycling and driving a Ferrari.

    BUT....if you compare vehicles of equal equipment then the hybrids always come out costing less to own and drive than any of their non-hybrid counterparts. This is true whether the vehicle is kept for 3-5-7-10 or 15 years.
    ..a Prius is less costly than a Matrix
    ..an HCE is less costly than an EX Civic
    ..a TCH is less costly than a XLE Camry
    ..an FEH is less costly than an Escape
    ..a T2M is less costly than a Tahoe
    ..an HH is less costly than a Highlander.

    Every case.

    However you are right. A buyer can opt for a lesser vehicle such as a bicycle that will do the trick as well. It's just a personal choice of how much one wants to give up / or not give up.
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    " Of far more worry are the electronics - if they go, it can be really expensive. This is generally true of all cars, but hybrids have more computer controls. For example, if the navigation screen goes out on the Prius, it simply won't run until it is fixed. If the Nav goes on a conventional car, you simply don't have the nav / stereo. "

    My only experience renting a Prius went something like that. The computer seemed to forget which position of the 'shifter' meant what mode to drive in. Park was Park thankfully, but Neutral was Drive, Reverse was Neutral and Drive was Reverse. And then it would switch back to normal the next time you started it.

    Long story short, it was anyone's guess which way you'd be travelling when you put the car in gear. AWKWARD!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Despite your insinuations a lot of very smart people have done their homework and done it with a little more depth than your simplistic analysis.

    Factor in the following and then you'll see the complete picture.

    What features do you want in a vehicle? Leather, sunroof, Navi, Bluetooth?
    How long will you keep the vehicle? 3 yrs? 5? 10? 15?
    What will be the price of fuel in 3 yrs? 5? 10? 15?
    How many miles will you drive over the lifetime of the vehicle?

    and here is the key one that all the simplistic analyses forget about......

    What will be the resales value of your trade in 3 yrs 5? 10? 15?

    But you can construct a scenario where settling for a lesser vehicle is definitely the least expensive option. However some people just choose not to settle, they expect certain features in their vehicles which a base model Camry will never satisfy. Some drivers will never set foot in a Corolla or Elantra. It's Cadillac or Mercedes or nothing. This is all personal preference.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,051
    Today, with far more "average joe" Americans rather than just the "hollywood elite" buying hybrids, it's not really an applicable stereotype any longer.

    True, there are many more working class stiffs buying hybrids these days. But still, I don't think the whole "smug alert" has completely been lifted. I remember reading an article fairly recently about hybrids and one woman was saying how she liked the "distinctive" styling of the Prius because it stands out. "I want people to know I care about the environment", she was quoted as saying.

    That sounds kinda smug to me, as if she's more concerned about what people think about her, what good she may or may not be doing for the environment.

    One of my cow-irkers wanted to buy a Camry hybrid, because she liked the idea that she was "getting one over on other people". Her exact words. But she's always been one of those holier than thou types of people.

    Maybe there's just something about a hybrid that attracts a certain type of buyer? I'm not saying ALL hybrid owners are like that. But perhaps just enough to perpetuate the stereotype? Kinda like how BMW drivers are supposed to be aggressive drivers and Hyundai/Kia drivers are supposed to be credit challenged, and Buicks are only bought by old people because that shade of blue really complements the hair in Grandma's wig? :shades:
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    that sounds like you have some kind of hybrid model there yourself. Burns rubber AND gas!

    I'm the true visionary...

    My theory is...if we all go to Hybrids then we'll drag out this gasoline thing forever...but if we use it up as quickly as possible then we'll be forced to go to something else.

    Like pulling off a band-aid

    change is good...I should run for office :)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I have a 100 mile per day commute and 6 months left on my apartment lease. A bicycle isn't too likely. ;) I hate the Yaris, though I'm semi-considering the 09 Fit and the 09 Elantra Touring...I have a hatchback preference, so I'd probably end up comparing the Prius in there, even though realistically I'd probably be more comfortable in a Civic Hybrid. Let's take this as apples to apples as I can though:

    Civic EX: $19,500 25/36 MPG (55.5 gallons per month for me)
    Civic Hybrid: $22,600 40/45 MPG (44.4 gallons per month)
    Difference: $3100

    $3100 /4 = 775 gallons of gas (so far anyway). Just for reference.

    Since I'm primarily a highway driver, I'd get about an extra 10 miles on a gallon of gas in the Hybrid version. Basically, I'd be buying 10 fewer gallons per month, at $4 per gallon. That's $480 per year. That means it'll be over 6 years before the added cost zeroes out. That's assuming I don't hypermile the regular EX and get 40 MPGs on the thing. But it also means that it only costs less to own and drive if I keep it for more than 6 years. Your mileage may vary...literally...city drivers may get better benefit, but they drive fewer miles so they may also take longer to reach the gain side of the equation.

    The problem with hybrids is the same problem as with a lot of other "green" technologies...I did a paper on this recently. The problem is the price premium...there is almost ALWAYS a price premium in "going green," and that's keeping a lot of people from doing it. Hybrids will be much more popular when the price falls a bit further...say a $1500 or even $1000 premium.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    You didn't respond to my note about safety in this vehicle.

    I guess I didn't read it. I haven't been reading all posts.

    My comment wasn't that I am promoting trading safety for better mpg. Personally I rather pay extra for better safety, power and overall capability. My new car now has AWD, stability control, ABS and a full-range of airbags.

    My question was for others - to see when people would lower their standards.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    And the Civic EX is going to give you a better stereo, better brakes - 4 wheel disk, and a sunroof. And you have the option of a manual (good for hypermiling, coasting) or the auto. Oh and did I mention, the EX has more power and acceleration?

    Does the Civic hybrid have any tax credit left? I know Toyota doesn't. There are very few models left (Altima) that get the hybrid tax credit.
  • bigmclargehugebigmclargehuge Member Posts: 377
    "And the Civic EX is going to give you a better stereo, better brakes - 4 wheel disk, and a sunroof."

    This is worth several MPG, for sure. You can't put a price on safety.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I have a friend who is irate because his company is replacing his Chrysler 300 with a hybrid car of some sort. His main complaint was that since the company pays for gas, he was going to lose out because his company isn't going to reimburse him for electricity when he plugs it in every night. After we worked through the hybrid concept together, he was still irate because he drives quite a bit and only likes to travel in big cars.

    Ignorant as these views may be, they are still representative of a lot of suburban America.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Tell him he can pay for the gas then...I bet he gets much less happy about that big honkin Chrysler 300.

    From what I've seen, me included, people are only happy with those big cars until they have to fill up the tank. Then all of a sudden it's a different story, though they feel that, rather than lowering their gas consumption because of high prices, they have a birthright of $1/gallon gas....
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Again the view that only looks at the fuel savings gives only a partial picture of the whole situation.

    There is a Federal tax break of $1000+ still on the HCH through June 30th I believe. In addition some states give allowances for sales taxes on hybrids which can add another $1000+ in savings. I don't know about your state.

    But four key issues which are always ignored are...
    ...how long will the ownership period be?
    ...how many miles will be driven during that period?
    ...how will fuel fluctuate over the ownership period? Most analyses figure fuel will remain constant forever which we all know is untrue.
    ...what will be the resale values of the two different vehicles when it comes time to trade?

    Factoring in these 4 the hybrid Civic, with equal equipment, will always cost less over a 3-5-7-10 or 15 yr period than the same non-hybrid Civic.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    "And the Civic EX is going to give you a better stereo, better brakes - 4 wheel disk, and a sunroof."

    This is worth several MPG, for sure. You can't put a price on safety.


    Not quite the point I wanted to make, but also true. That $3100 difference, while also paying for the hybrid equipment, is not all of the cost. You have to factor in the missing equipment too.

    And yeah, i have a HUGE preference for 4-wheel discs. ;)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Factoring in these 4 the hybrid Civic, with equal equipment, will always cost less over a 3-5-7-10 or 15 yr period than the same non-hybrid Civic.

    Mathematically, in my case, I already showed you that the hybrid costs more unless you keep it over the 6 year mark. Given that yes, I assumed a constant for gas prices, but we could also factor in inflation and other such wonderfully esoteric stuff that will probably be as wrong as our estimates of the gas-price increases. Probably (ok hopefully) the gas prices and inflation will equal out somewhat.

    Point is, I did the math for my situation. Buying the hybrid version wouldn't pay off unless I kept the car for 6 years or more, and continued to drive the same number of miles that I do now for that entire time. In 6 years I won't be doing that; I plan to be driving considerably less. Also, in 6 years, that HCH will have 150,000 miles on it at minimum, depreciating it (or any other car admittedly) right into the toilet. So please explain to me how a hybrid will cost me less over a 3 year period than a Civic EX. Mathematically. You're made a statement: I ask you to back it up with equations.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Member Posts: 833
    I'm not suggesting you sell the gas guzler and buy the hybrid when your gaz guzler might be running well and have life in it (it would be nice), but if you are making choices stricktly based on economics then you'd never give anything to a charity...would you?

    going green doesn't always make perfect economic sense on an individual basis, but it does make sense on a global basis.

    if people feel happy about helping out the environment, and I think most do, then that should factor into your decision when it's time for the next car.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,051
    His main complaint was that since the company pays for gas, he was going to lose out because his company isn't going to reimburse him for electricity when he plugs it in every night.

    Couldn't he just not plug the car in, then? He'd get a bit worse fuel economy, since the gasoline engine would then have to run more and recharge the battery, but if the company is paying for the gas...

    Funny thing though, as far as big cars go, I never really considered a Chrysler 300 as THAT big. It's not like he's cruising around in some livingroom on wheels. I'd imagine that a midsized hybrid like an Altima, Accord, or Camry shouldn't be too much of a step down in comfort. And even the Malibu/Aura should still be pretty comfy up front, although I find 'em a bit cramped in the back. But unless he's a backseat driver, that shouldn't be a problem!
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    The original point I poorly tried to make is that this guy didn't understand the difference between a hybrid and a full electric car. It is all the same to him.

    Anyway, the 300 is his little car. If he is with his wife and/or kids, he drives a new Yukon XL (and I've never heard him complain about the cost of gas).
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,051
    The original point I poorly tried to make is that this guy didn't understand the difference between a hybrid and a full electric car. It is all the same to him.

    Oops, gotcha...yeah, that went right over my head! :blush: I was thinking in terms of a plug-in hybrid, but are those even on the market yet?
  • rubicon3rubicon3 Member Posts: 4
    What features do you want in a vehicle? Leather, sunroof, Navi, Bluetooth?

    I will disregard this question, since the topic of this thread is concerning what decisions you will make in response to rising gas prices.

    Your most important question: What will be the resales value of your trade in 3 yrs 5? 10? 15?

    You are forgetting the fact that there will be better technologies forthcoming, even better than current hybrid technology. GM plans to have over half their vehicles run on some kind of bio-fuel within the next decade, turning my car as well as todays hybrids into utter trash.

    And if resale value plays into your decision process, then of course, by all means, go for the hybrid. My assumption based on the topic of this thread is what one should do based on rising cost of oil. I'm just saying if all you care about is the cost of gas--and trying to save money as a result of it--then you don't need to buy a new car!

    My point is, if you want to save money, there are other ways to do it especially by driving slower and finding the optimal RPM / speed combination. Slowing down to between 50 and 60 on the highway can increase your mileage a whole lot; trust me, I've tried it. I drive between 60 and 65 these days and I get a comfortable 500 miles per 14-15 gallons--much better than when i would drive 70+.

    You don't have a right to complain about rising gas prices if you're gonna spend your money on expensive solutions...
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Mathematically, in my case, I already showed you that the hybrid costs more unless you keep it over the 6 year mark. Given that yes, I assumed a constant for gas prices, but we could also factor in inflation and other such wonderfully esoteric stuff that will probably be as wrong as our estimates of the gas-price increases. Probably (ok hopefully) the gas prices and inflation will equal out somewhat.

    Point is, I did the math for my situation. Buying the hybrid version wouldn't pay off unless I kept the car for 6 years or more, and continued to drive the same number of miles that I do now for that entire time. In 6 years I won't be doing that; I plan to be driving considerably less. Also, in 6 years, that HCH will have 150,000 miles on it at minimum, depreciating it (or any other car admittedly) right into the toilet. So please explain to me how a hybrid will cost me less over a 3 year period than a Civic EX. Mathematically. You're made a statement: I ask you to back it up with equations


    OK let's.

    We'll agree that the differential now between the non-hybrid and the hybrid is $3100.

    Here are your criteria.
    6 yrs of ownership
    150,000 miles of driving
    Fuel cost: Estimating that the cost of fuel in 2014 will be the same as the cost today is just wrong. No, we don't know what will be the prices down the road but a fair estimate over the last several years is that the average fuel cost increase is about $.50 per gallon per year. That means that ...
    .. in 2008 it will average $3.25
    .. in 2009 $3.75
    .. in 2010 $4.25
    .. in 2011 $4.75
    .. in 2012 $5.25
    .. in 2013 $5.75
    .. in 2014 $6.25 What vehicle do you want to be driving in 2014 when fuel is $6.25/gal? The AVERAGE cost of fuel over this period is $4.75 / gallon. You can choose not to consider increases in the price of fuel but that's hiding from the facts.

    the Combined EPA Fuel Economy:
    The Civic 5AT EX ....... 25 / 36 / 29 = 3.45 gal / 100 mi driven
    The HCH................... 40 / 45 / 42 = 2.38 gal / 100 mi driven

    Resales: ( From Edmunds ) 2003's with 125,000 mi
    2003 Civic EX........ $5000
    2003 Civic hybrid... $5700 the HCH retains $700 of it's original $3100 differential upon resale. Let's say in 6 yrs and 150,000 the resales are $4000 and $4500 respectively; i.e. a differential of $500.

    Tax Incentive til june 30th.. $1050

    Here are the two equations that will lay out the total costs of the two vehicles today

    New Veh Purch Price - RESALE - Tax Incentive = Net Cost of the vehicle
    Civic EX........ $20000 - $4000 - ..$0 .. = $16000 net cost of the vehicle
    Civic hybrid... $23100 - $4500 - $1050 = $17550 net cost of the vehicle

    Fuel costs = ( total miles / Avg FE ) x Avg Fuel Cost = Total Fuel Cost
    Civic EX .. ( 150,000 / 29 ) x $4.75 / gal = $24570 total fuel cost
    Civic Hyb. ( 150,000 / 42 ) x $4.75 / gal = $16965 total fuel cost

    Total costs to purchase and drive...
    Civic EX .. $16000 + $24570 = $40,570
    Civic Hyb. $17550 + $16965 = $34,515

    Over the life of these two vehicles driven the same time period and the same total miles the Civic Hybrid will cost $6000 less to own and drive than the non-hybrid.

    That's all that can be said. Everything else is personal preferences.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    What you are assuming in this reply is that because fuel is going up people will opt not to get features that they really like. You are assuming that people will ( or should ) just choose more and more basic models eventually resulting in Japanese Kei cars or bicycles in order to avoid the high cost of fuel.

    You can't make this assumption. Things like leather and Navi and a premium sound system and bluetooth are key features for some buyers. As I noted before some Cadillac/Mercedes buyers won't set foot in a Corolla or Elantra. But that doesn't mean that they don't want some nicer features. A basic Camry will not satisfy these buyers. An XLE type Camry does interest these buyers. It's a fact and I've seen it personally....three times in the past week.

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,274
    I saw it today at a local Citco station. Hi-test was $4.01 a gallon.

    The other side of the sign was broken as it seems someone threw a brick through it. Hummm...now there's an idea. :mad:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785
    Hybrid owners are not the only people that can be smug. Diesel owners were pretty smug a few years ago when diesel was less than gasoline. They weren't afraid to tell you how much money they were saving with their 40% better gas mileage. Now half of them are crying in their beer when they buy $4 plus diesel and it takes $100 or more to fill the tank.. Several have even resorted to developing a conspiracy theory or two on why things are bad.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I have a 47 mpg average after 23,000 miles in my Civic Hybrid. I know this simple statement of fact will lure all the anti-hybrid crowd out of their collective lair. That's fine. But try to keep the rhetoric fair and honest.

    OK being fair and honest, I drive an Elantra and for what you paid for your hybrid (less tax rebates) is what I spent on my Elantra and 100+K miles worth of gas.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Another thing to consider is that it has a far more complicated drivetrain and if that needs serious work on it it will cost you.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785
    Interesting numbers. You left out a few minor things like finance charges. The charges would be slightly higher for the hybrid.

    A person could put the $1,500 price difference in the bank and get interest. Some people might benefit more by paying off a credit card or two. I wonder too what the difference in yearly taxes, maintenance and insurance might be.

    Another thing to consider is that the hybrid will likely need a battery replacement at some point. The question is when will it need a replacement and how much of an impact will it have on the resale value of the car.

    "but a fair estimate over the last several years is that the average fuel cost increase is about $.50 per gallon per year."

    I would argue that your estimate of gasoline prices is a bit too high. We have already seen a decent shift to small cars at a sustained $3.50 level. At $4 to $5 you will see an even bigger change in demand downward in the U.S. Prices may increase some but probably not at 50 cents a year.

    We also need to consider that at $5 a gallon for gasoline oil will be $150 to $200 a barrel. Countries that subsidize gasoline will be forced to reduce or eliminate subsidizes and increase prices. The increased price will reduce demand.

    I could see $5 a gallon by 2014 but not $6.25.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "There are very few models left (Altima) that get the hybrid tax credit."

    The Fords still have the full tax credit, if you want an SUV, and I think they are putting in a Fusion Hybrid next year.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "I saw it today at a local Citco station. Hi-test was $4.01 a gallon."

    You must not live in CA. Premium has been over $4 for several weeks...
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Interesting numbers but I will disagree with the results. First off I used 108K miles instead of 150K as most people will put 108K miles on a car in 5 years (18K/Year), I also accounted for the time value of money at a nominal 2.5% per year and gas going up a nickel a month (60 cents a year). I have the Prius saving only about $1,400 dollars using your figures. Thats if the $3,100 difference is paid for in cash.

    If you finance the $3,100 at 6% then the Prius will save you $400,

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    That $400 will buy a Headstone that says "Killed in a Headon, but got great MPG"
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The OP stated that his criteria was 6 yrs at 150,000 miles for a Civic vs a Civic Hybrid.

    I agree that miles driven is the key component above almost everything else. If like gagrice one were only to drive 5000 miles annually then no hybrid is 'worthwhile' and in fact it doesn't matter much which vehicle is being driven because the absolute number of miles is very low.

    OTOH in my case where I drive 35,000 miles annually every hybrid on the road is a huge benefit. Using a spreadsheet one could construct a 'breakpoint' ( differential equation ) where the curve switches from it being a benefit to the ICE to where it's clearly in favor of the hybrid version.

    The other point is the value of the resales. At lower mileages the vehicles don't depreciate as much so the value of the hybrid premium at time of resale doesn't decrease as much.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Spoken like a true 'Flat Worlder'. LOL

    Quick question: Which vehicle is better in a headon collision?
    Cobalt, Caliber, Prius, Civic, Impreza, Rabbit, Versa, Mazda3?

    Hint: www.iihs.org
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,051
    I agree that miles driven is the key component above almost everything else. If like gagrice one were only to drive 5000 miles annually then no hybrid is 'worthwhile' and in fact it doesn't matter much which vehicle is being driven because the absolute number of miles is very low.

    That's pretty much my situation. Heck, my annual mileage is low enough that I'm considering ditching my 2000 Intrepid, and just depending on my old cars. And ironically, my '79 New Yorker was ready to pick up from the mechanic today, with a rebuilt carb, while my Intrepid decided to die in the parking lot at work, leaving me stranded. :mad:

    Heck, just dropping the Intrepid off my insurance would fund about 4 months of gas for my old cars.

    OTOH in my case where I drive 35,000 miles annually every hybrid on the road is a huge benefit.

    Yeah, with higher mileage like that, a hybrid definitely looks tempting. But is that mostly highway mileage? If that's the case, the hybrid may not be as tempting. IIRC, before the EPA downrated its numbers, the Prius was rated at 51 highway, the Civic hybrid around 47, while a regular Civic was 40.

    Back when I used to deliver pizzas, I put 13,000 miles on an '86 Monte Carlo in three months. That's an annual rate of 52,000 miles, all of it local, city-type driving! I imagine a hybrid would be awesome in that type of driving. Back then though, gas was about a buck a gallon, and that car averaged maybe 15 mpg. So that 13K miles only cost me about $900. Meanwhile, I was bringing in an easy $400+ per week, in addition to my full-time job.

    Ahh, the good old days. If I had to do something like that nowadays, I'd probably be looking at either a hybrid or a VERY economical regular car!
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,803
    head on collision? my family votes for big suv!
    initial cost of 2 different vehicles is a major factor, as is fuel consumption(miles driven).
    insurance and property taxes(i realize not everyone pays this) are others.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,051
    Yeah, I'd say if you're running one vehicle into another, I'd rather be in the larger, heavier vehicle, especially if it sits higher up, or it's long enough where you sit further back from the front.

    However, a lot of smaller cars to surprisingly well in other types of accidents, such as running into a fixed barrier, tree, rear ending another car, etc. And when it comes to getting t-boned, it seems like side airbags are a major factor. Although again, I'd rather be in a big SUV getting t-boned by a little car, rather than the other way around!
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That would be me,I drive 26,000 miles per year, almost all of it highway, which is where hybrids DON'T excel..the improvement on highway mileage is minimal compared to city mileage (where the improvement is admittedly pretty stinking huge).

    That's some interesting math, but it hides a few facts. Fact one: the UP FRONT cost is higher by $3100...this is a major factor to some, me included. Two, I notice you're factoring in some inflation for gas, but not for the value of the car (which is still being stated in "today" dollars). Which screws the whole equation up, because you're using a higher-value dollar to calculate the residual resale value in your equations. That and one other reason is why I left resale value out. The other is that I'd have to find a SERIOUS sucker to buy any car with 150,000 miles on it that's only 6 years old, and they'd have to be more of a sucker to buy one when it's a hybrid. By 150k one may as well drive something into the ground.

    Ok, you're also using AVERAGE fuel economy, and not HIGHWAY. 90% or more of my driving is HIGHWAY. I understand you want to tilt it more toward city since that's where a hybrid's advantages lay, but there's a reason why I only used the highway numbers in my equations. My MPG numbers would be more realistically reflected by the 36 and 45, not the 29 and 42. Notice The the highway numbers are significantly closer together. So let's redo your math:

    The Combined EPA Fuel Economy:
    The Civic 5AT EX ....... 25 / 36 = 2.8 gal / 100 mi driven
    The HCH................... 40 / 45 / 42 = 2.2 gal / 100 mi driven

    Resales: ( From Edmunds ) 2003's with 125,000 mi
    2003 Civic EX........ $5000
    2003 Civic hybrid... $5700 the HCH retains $700 of it's original $3100 differential upon resale. Let's say in 6 yrs and 150,000 the resales are $4000 and $4500 respectively; i.e. a differential of $500.

    Tax Incentive til june 30th.. $1050 (By the way, I'd be buying after that, once they get traction and stability control. But for the sake of argument, I'll leave it in).

    Here are the two equations that will lay out the total costs of the two vehicles today

    New Veh Purch Price - Tax Incentive = Net Cost of the vehicle
    Civic EX........ $20000 - ..$0 .. = $20000 net cost of the vehicle
    Civic hybrid... $23100 - $1050 = $22050 net cost of the vehicle

    Fuel costs = ( total miles / Hwy FE ) x Avg Fuel Cost = Total Fuel Cost
    Civic EX .. ( 150,000 / 36 ) x $4.75 / gal = $19791 total fuel cost
    Civic Hyb. ( 150,000 / 45 ) x $4.75 / gal = $15833 total fuel cost

    Total cost to purchase and drive for 6 years:
    Civic EX .. $20000 + $19791 = $39,791
    Civic Hyb. $22050 + $15833 = $37,833

    A difference of less than $2000. That's $4000 that just disappeared. Oh wait, it's under $1000...no tax rebate anymore, remember?

    Let's assume the resale, just for fun.

    Total costs to purchase and drive, assuming resale...
    Civic EX .. $16000 + $19791 = $35,791
    Civic Hyb. $17550 + $15833 = $33,383

    Since the resale difference is only $500, not much difference here.

    All of a sudden we've gone from a $6000 difference to under a grand (or 2 grand if I suffer without VSC) difference, just from changing the type of driving one does. A city driver, on the other hand, could REALLY cash in. But I hate it when people try to market hybrids as a cure-all. They're designed for city driving. They're great for city driving. They save a lot of money for city driving. The savings is very significantly reduced on the highway, and in some cases eliminated.
  • future4ufuture4u Member Posts: 25
    I listen to coast to coast AM for one .

    I also listen to : http://nutrimedical.com/ This is a radio program conducted by
    Dr. Bill Deagle . I suggest that you listen to his series of tapes of a speech he gave in Grenada . Also listen to his radio broadcast on December 15 , 2005

    The gasoline crisis is a hoax . Go to : http://www.reformation.org/energy-non-crisis.html and watch the tapes by Layten Williams .

    Some more truth ? http://anonymous-physicist.blogsot.com/

    How about Alex Jones at ; www.prison planet.com ?

    Just to name a few .

    BTW , the " hydrogen assist fuel cell " produces hydrogen on demand thus no infrastucture of fueling stations nor storage tanks are necessary . Costs $995.40 for a guaranteed 50% improvement in fuel economy . They are experiencing a 95% on the vehicles already modified . Once the " pre ignition catalytic converter " is EPA approved they'll be able to promise 100+ MPG on any automobile including SUV or light truck on the road . Dynomomenter testing resulted in improvement from 22 to 196 increase . Estimated cost $2,500 . Lets see , what is one ninth of $4.00 . HMMM ! Oh yeah , and you can breathe the exhaust . Probably not have to change oil even . Or need costly injector repairs . Geeeeesh !! It's just too good to be true , isn't it ?

    But , that's okay , stick with your Main Stream Media mushroom food . LMAO !! Ford will tell you how if you'll spend an extra $7,000 for their hybrid you'll gain from 26 to 34 or 8 MPG . A hell of a deal !! Chevy is boasting a model that will give you 30 MPG . Super !!
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,133
    "Costs $995.40 for a guaranteed 50% improvement in fuel economy . They are experiencing a 95% on the vehicles already modified . Once the " pre ignition catalytic converter " is EPA approved they'll be able to promise 100+ MPG on any automobile including SUV or light truck on the road . Dynomomenter testing resulted in improvement from 22 to 196 increase . Estimated cost $2,500"

    Besides being pure nonsense, this is pure advertising. Hosts, do your duty!
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "I could see $5 a gallon by 2014 but not $6.25."

    Whew, really? That's optimistic. I am already paying $4 for gas in my neighborhood, and that's regular unleaded. I am expecting it to be $4.25 by Memorial Day. There is absolutely NO WAY it will stay at or below $5 through 2014 unless everyone just plain stop using the stuff. I just hope $6.25 in 2014 is not too optimistic.

    And andre, no, there are not yet plug-in hybrids on the market from the OEMs. There are, however, plentiful options for aftermarket conversion. And I doubt the original poster's company will be doing that - I expect they will just be giving him a conventional hybrid.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,051
    Whew, really? That's optimistic. I am already paying $4 for gas in my neighborhood, and that's regular unleaded. I am expecting it to be $4.25 by Memorial Day. There is absolutely NO WAY it will stay at or below $5 through 2014 unless everyone just plain stop using the stuff. I just hope $6.25 in 2014 is not too optimistic.

    Heck, using $4.00 as a staring point, even if gasoline tracked the figures the gov't would like you to believe for inflation, say, 4%, that would put you to $5.06 per gallon by 2014. And it would only have to go up an average of maybe 7.7% to hit $6.25 per gallon...certainly in the realm of possibility.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I could see $5 a gallon by 2014 but not $6.25.

    I'm with you. In 1979 oil was $30+ per barrel. Same hysteriacs were saying it will continue on an upward trend. Low and behold it went all the way back to under $10 per barrel in 1998. Last I read it cost Saudi Arabia $4 per barrel to produce and deliver oil to the USA. There is a lot of room between the current $120 and $4 to say it will continue up. There are other factors such as the dollar. It has been on a downhill slide since being removed from the gold standard. Then Hillary today promised to break up OPEC. "They can no longer be a cartel, a monopoly..........yada yada..... :)
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