did Gig Harbor mostly escape all of that water rampage? My Grandma and Grandpa on my Dad's side lived in Gig Harbor, WA.
I got gas last night in town at the Mustang station. $2.89 for 87 no-lead.
Sounds like the EV is gonna need some intensive and thorough planning to even get it in to re-charging station soundness and sense. Unoccupied re-charging stations pose the most threat and some serious safeguard architecture is going to have to be designed in and made sure that it works before many will feel good about using them. Cost to re-charge is difficult to guess at this point.
You have to wonder how many stations in the Centralia area got water in their underground storage tanks. I think I would go up in the hills to buy gas.
I doubt CA will get back to $2 gas. I would think many places will as the economy moves to a recession over the next 18 months. I filled before heading to Phoenix and paid $3.29 per gallon here. That night in Chandler, AZ I filled up for $2.87 per gallon. By that parallel you should be seeing gas for about $2.62 at the discount stations in your area. Winter is still a couple weeks away. That will be when the gas glut hits. I do not think $4 gas is in the cards for another year at least. For most major markets. You get out in the middle of no where or San Francisco and they can stick it to you.
Kind of a catch 22 situation, eh? I thought it would make a difference at least in the way people drive so aggressively. I do not see a bit less craziness. Everyone racing from one light to the next. I was also hoping the high prices would cut back some on the wasted trips so many people make. Even friends and family. Then they cry to us how broke they are. Well maybe plan your trips a little better. Combine your errands. I do not think it will be traffic affecting until it hits at least 5 bucks per gallon. Maybe not even then.
I agree. People have adopted a certain driving routine/style that seems very resistant to change. I'm not sure that even $5/gal gas would make much of an impact. What I think you'll see is a change in the less frequent, long range decisions. People will opt for the 4 cylinder instead of the 6 cylinder. When moving there will be more consideration given to the daily commute. Things like that, which will be far more gradual.
people driving by you as you ride. I have seen so many of those 'Cops' episodes and 'Amazing Video' shows where dorks all anebriated come plowing in to cops as they issue tickets at roadside. Here in Arizona you are obligated to pull over to the fast lane until you fully pass cops giving tickets on the side of freeways.
Conserve energy, gets lots of exercise but be very, very careful out there.
Well, that's why I have a helmet mirror and Fridays are not bike commuting days.
Riding home at midnight on a Friday night doesn't mix well with all the bar-hopping drunks and bored kids cruising the roads, who have the weekend off and are looking for entertainment. Saving a few gas dollars by pedaling doesn't justify dealing with that.
When the price of gas is adjusted for inflation we are now about where we were in 1981. From there it dropped like a rock. It hit a low in 2000 at the bursting of the Dot.com bubble. We will always be held captive to oil prices. As the rest of the World emerges from the 19th Century the price of oil will escalate. With no new large oil finds we will pay more. I do not think it is any kind of conspiracy as you suggest. If anything it is a commodity market gone wild.
"When the price of gas is adjusted for inflation we are now about where we were in 1981. From there it dropped like a rock. It hit a low in 2000 at the bursting of the Dot.com bubble. We will always be held captive to oil prices. As the rest of the World emerges from the 19th Century the price of oil will escalate. With no new large oil finds we will pay more. I do not think it is any kind of conspiracy as you suggest. If anything it is a commodity market gone wild."
This seems to be the case. China and India are going to stress the world's petroleum production capacity. And consider that about 22% of the world's crude comes from just two countries; Saudi Arabia and Russia. While the Saudis undoubtedly have lotsa oil, no one outside of Saudi Aramco knows for certain how much. But Russia is maybe the real wild card. Russia is the world's biggest producer at around 9.6 Mbpd and their proven reserves are probably less than 80 billion barrels. When Russian production goes into decline (and that could be any time within the next five years), the world will be hard-pressed to compensate for that decline.
A recent IEA report (Fatih Birol, IEA chief economist) said that 23.9 Mmbpd of new production will have to come online by 2015 just to make up for global depletion rates which are expected to be just over 4%. Should prove interesting for crude and refined product prices.
But the big difference as you noted was that fuel then dropped like a rock and stayed there for 20 yrs. The economic forces now are much different and a fall back is much much less likely.
US$ devaluation will hurt us badly at the pump. Our demand for fuel is starting to exceed our supply Despite our friendships with CA, MX and SA a good part of the world which owns oil wants to make the Satan crawl begging.
"Satan" was a translation error (or maybe on purpose?). The actual phrase is The Great Tempter". Coming from the Auto Show, I can see why they think that :P
electric, all-electric, it's electric, all-electric....da-da-da-da-da-da--da-dum...electric driven it's electric driven not internal combustion...combustion, combustion!
Da-da-da-dum! Start drumming it in to your noggins that you must leave your internal combustion-engined vehicles as soon as a bright, economically-feasible method of transportation comes along that doesn't require gasoline or even burning sweet oil for that matter.
Have you been reading A. Gore's Earth in the Balance? He would do away with the ICE, then try to find a replacement. Your Mitsu is safe out there in the desert for a while. They will start the ICE eradication program in San Francisco & NYC first.
The evidence that I have been reading shows that the second half of the 20th century was actually cooler than the first half. It also shows that we could have a temperature change of up to -1.5 degrees celcus.
What causes the warming and cooling of the Earth? One word "SUN". Scientists are expecting that this solar cycle to be of lesser activity meaning less energy coming to the earth and therefor cooler temperatures over the next decade or two.
But of course there is no money to be had in proclaiming that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"The evidence that I have been reading shows that the second half of the 20th century was actually cooler than the first half. It also shows that we could have a temperature change of up to -1.5 degrees celcus. "
There are literally hundreds of studies based on historical records that would disagree with the statement that the second half of the 20th century was cooler than the first half. However what you might be talking about is that we had hotter weather in the U.S. in the first half of the 20th century but this is not correct for global temperatures.
Climate change is an extremely complex issue where bright lay people can look at the data and have considerable difficulty coming to a consensus. At this point I'm in the "ít's getting hotter" camp and that CO2 is one of the variables at work in the present scenario. And if anthropic CO2 does turn out to be a component of climate change, we are pretty much screwed. Six point three billion folks and climbing and now about one or two billion more would like to get some wheels.
at the concept CRZ from Honda in an article today. Methinks that come 2010, when gas will certainly have peaked above $4/gallon (and has decent odds of having held there in California, yikes!) I will be first in line for one of those. But it's gotta make at least 50 mpg, preferably 60 like the old Insight.
I wonder if we will be any closer to an honest-to-goodness 100 mpg production car for the street by then. There sure has been a lot of talk...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yeah, U.S. automakers are real good at the "talk" part of the equation. We're still waiting to see what they can actually do. The next best thing from Detroit is always just a few years away. Lately, it's the Chevy Volt. The latest version of the hype is 'available by 2010' and 'about $30,000.'
Gee, sounds neato! But forgive me if I don't begin celebrating just yet; the phrase "EV-1" just came to mind.
Meanwhile, I'm driving around in a Honda Civic Hybrid (which Honda has produced for several years) and getting 50 mpg already. It's competitor, the Toyota Prius, gets similar mileage, and has been produced for 10 years. That means that both companies started designing these cars 15 years ago.
When gas was $1.
Funny, isn't it, that all the genius, million-dollar-a-month executives at Ford/GM/Chrysler never thought of something like that? I mean, for all the money they make, they must be the best and brightest, right? Executives in Japanese car companies earn a fraction of what those guys make, yet they keep producing superior, innovative cars. Go figure.
Wait, you can't figure it, because it makes no sense! The U.S. guys built their entire industry around the concept that gasoline would ALWAYS be $1/gal. And that every driver would ALWAYS want a bigger, Bigger, BIGGER SUV. And that nothing would ever change.
Oh well, I guess a million dollars a month just doesn't buy what it used to. Maybe the big three need to pay MORE, you know, so they can, like, inspire the execs to do better, and stuff.
But even if they don't, we can still count on Congress to encourage new fuel-efficient technology, right? After all, they give a $2,000 tax credit for the Prius and the Civic Hybrid. OOPS! Wait a minute, those already expired. See, they were only for a limited number of hybrids.
Oh well, maybe Congress can reinstate the credits, and make them the forever kind, just like the $125,000 accelerated tax depreciation they allow for gas-guzzling work trucks.
And, of course, they can keep increasing the CAFE standards, just like they have .... OOPS! Wait a minute, they haven't increased CAFE requirements in more than 20 years. But they promise they will in the future. Just like GM promises they'll build an electric car ..... in the future.
Meanwhile, Honda will release its new hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle in limited markets this summer. But that'll probably be a temporary fad, just like hybrid cars. Just like $3 gasoline.
Yeah, that's it! This whole gas price thing is just temporary, and those savvy executives in Detroit know it. THAT'S why they're not making efficient cars, because they know that gas is gonna drop back down to $1 and everyone will buy SUVs again.
Okay, now I get it. Those guys really ARE smart, after all!
Funny, isn't it, that all the genius, million-dollar-a-month executives at Ford/GM/Chrysler never thought of something like that?
Chrysler did build a hybrid and felt the US buyer would not pay the premium. So it did not go into production. Honda & Toyota with their cheaper labor and deeper pockets sold their hybrids at a loss to enhance their image. The ESX3 was a higher mileage vehicle than either Honda or Toyota has offered. Both Japanese companies sold their first hybrids at more than a $10k loss per vehicle. Some would say that it was against US dumping laws.
Dodge Intrepid ESX hybrid-electric car, 1997 Vehicle: rear-engine, rear wheel drive, hybrid propulsion, 5 passenger, 4-door sedan The ESX3's mild hybrid electric (or "mybrid") powertrain combines a clean diesel engine, electric motor, and lithium-ion battery to achieve 72 miles per gallon (3.3 liters/100 km). That is two miles per gallon better than the fuel efficiency of its predecessor, the ESX2 in 1998, and close to PNGV's goal of up to 80 mpg (2.9 liters/100 km).
Maybe if CARB had mandated PZEV instead of ZEV, GM would not have wasted all the money & time on a failed EV-1. Government involvement has slowed the MPG progress more than speed it up. Japan backed the hybrid development for their automakers.
Gary says, "Both Japanese companies sold their first hybrids at more than a $10k loss per vehicle."
You should "asterisk" that statement by saying it's RUMOR and not FACT. No one who really knows has ever said what the loss was, if anything. I don't count R&D costs as applicable because any revolutionary or evolutionary vehicle will have R&D costs.
Gary says, "Honda & Toyota with their cheaper labor and deeper pockets sold their hybrids at a loss to enhance their image."
I don't think their image needs enhancing any more. They always finish in the top three in just about any evaluation of the cleanest, greenest car companies. VW gets a not there too from some studies.
The fact is that the PNGV scared the Japanese into building their hybrids and when the Big Three backed off they made a huge mistake and are still playing catchup with vehicles that are not as good as what the Japanese engineers have come up with.
yeah I think at this point that Honda and Toyota's reputation as "green" companies and as technology leaders is pretty unassailable for the moment at least. Toyota's RAV4-EV was amazing. I drove one. I haven't seen anything like it since and that's been 3-4 years ago. I can't imagine what they have in their back pockets.
One of the GM executives was quoted about a year ago saying something to the effect "If we had known how much good publicity we could have gotten out of hybrids, it would have been worth the startup (R&D) costs, even though we don't think they're the best economic choice for the typical driver."
You should "asterisk" that statement by saying it's RUMOR and not FACT.
When I test drove the first of the Prius to be in San Diego, the sales manager told me it cost Toyota $35k to build. They were being offered for $20,000 even with a Bumper to bumper 8 year 100k mile warranty. I read similar costs for the Insight. I don't think that Toyota had a green image prior to the Prius. Honda has been a leader in mileage and emissions since coming on the scene. The Insight is still the highest mileage hybrid to be sold in the USA. I don't think Honda is sad they did not sell well.
Well, that's fine if you believe one anecdotal statement by a sales manager for whom all we know was just being a liar, blowhard, showoff, or just making something up, or trying to convince you from a sales standpoint that if you bought it "you get $35K worth of car for only $20K."
That's why I said it's just a "rumor." Toyota has never officially said anything similar to that. In fact, they have denied it often.
The Insight was indeed possibly selling for less than it cost at first because it was a "proof of concept" vehicle that Honda utilized to arrive on the US hybrid market before anyone else. Honda likes to have "firsts" in their resume, and they probably wanted the "first" more than they wanted the profit.
It had a lot of unusually-shaped body parts and IMA hybrid technology that had never been put on a car before. My guess is that by the end of the Insight's life, when it had sold a lot more cars and they had been able to apply a much more serious volume manufacturing model to it, you can bet it was selling for a lot closer to cost than at the beginning.
The Prius had two years in Japan before it sold here, so Toyota could bring costs down for the parts and the car in general.
Toyota has denied forever that the Prius was a loss leader, and until someone closer to the Prius' accounting software writes a tell-all book, then we are all left speculating.
I don't believe it. Toyota has sold 1 million Priuses world-wide, so that would mean a net loss to the company of 1 million X $15,000 or 15 billion dollars.
Remember they only sold a few of the first generation Prius. I am sure those were at a big loss. I agree they would not have put so many out on the market if they were not making any money after selling as many as they have. I doubt that any of the other automakers have hit the break even point selling hybrids. That would include Honda. They have not sold enough to recoup their R&D.
The first Prius was sold ten years ago this month in Japan after a three year crash design/engineering project. Toyota may have lost money on some of the early ones, but it appears that the R&D invested has been paying long term returns for them. Plus there are reports that as many as half of Prius buyers weren't Toyota customers before, so they've drug some new customers into the fold.
I don't really find any completely "trustworthy" links about Prius profits and I don't plan to go to Toyota corporate to try to dig out anything from the annual reports either.
Anyone notice that crude is under $90 a barrel and reports are that it'll continue to fall as production increases while the economy continues to slow? link
Well the Japanese have been accused in the past of "dumping", which is sellling products cheaper here than in Japan in order to grab market share. But really, this is not a whole lot different than factory rebates---but rebates have sort of a different goal---to blow out excess inventory, not so much to grab market share.
I bet a lot of Prius' sales are "conquest" sales, which of course is the Holy Grail of automobile marketing
I agree. If any car maker came up with an ICE only car that would get double what the competition was offering they could make a killing. It just defies the laws of physics. We still have not beat the 20 year old Civic CRX using gasoline. Without adding the hybrid stuff.
Well there is only just so much energy in a gallon of gas and you can't increase that. Plus it also takes a certain amount of energy to move X amount of mass so many miles and you can't decrease that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In China and India, disposable income is increasing throughout the populations, which consist of numbers dwarfing the U.S. citizenry. When car ownership in China and India begins to approach the market penetration in the United States, the consequences for oil wars seem too dire to contemplate.
Comments
I got gas last night in town at the Mustang station. $2.89 for 87 no-lead.
Sounds like the EV is gonna need some intensive and thorough planning to even get it in to re-charging station soundness and sense. Unoccupied re-charging stations pose the most threat and some serious safeguard architecture is going to have to be designed in and made sure that it works before many will feel good about using them. Cost to re-charge is difficult to guess at this point.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
james
For the most part GH fared well. The area south of Olympia really got hammered, I feel bad for all the people flooded out and just befor the holidays
I did see Chevron RUG for $3.07 in Tacoma yesterday.
Just this summer, in our van, we took 3 trips with combined families in a single vehicle.
Most of the time when I suggest we go together, people look at me like I'm crazy.
We're pullin' for you. Were all in this together. (even Boaz)
james
Conserve energy, gets lots of exercise but be very, very careful out there.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Riding home at midnight on a Friday night doesn't mix well with all the bar-hopping drunks and bored kids cruising the roads, who have the weekend off and are looking for entertainment. Saving a few gas dollars by pedaling doesn't justify dealing with that.
Enjoy riding!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Some people just keep drinking the OPEC Kool-Aid, and asking for seconds. Here's the deal:
In 2003, gasoline hit $2.00/gal. Then the price pulled back for a while.
In 2004, gas hit $2.30. Then the price pulled back.
In 2005, it hit $2.70. Then the price pulled back.
In 2006, it hit $3.00. Then the price pulled back.
In 2007, it hit $3.50.
Are we seeing a pattern here?
If you drop a frog into a pot of boiling water, it hops out immediately, scalded but still alive.
If you drop a frog into a pot of cool water and turn the heat up slowly, it stays there until it dies.
Let's be smarter than the frog.
.
This seems to be the case. China and India are going to stress the world's petroleum production capacity. And consider that about 22% of the world's crude comes from just two countries; Saudi Arabia and Russia. While the Saudis undoubtedly have lotsa oil, no one outside of Saudi Aramco knows for certain how much. But Russia is maybe the real wild card. Russia is the world's biggest producer at around 9.6 Mbpd and their proven reserves are probably less than 80 billion barrels. When Russian production goes into decline (and that could be any time within the next five years), the world will be hard-pressed to compensate for that decline.
A recent IEA report (Fatih Birol, IEA chief economist) said that 23.9 Mmbpd of new production will have to come online by 2015 just to make up for global depletion rates which are expected to be just over 4%. Should prove interesting for crude and refined product prices.
Yes we are now back where fuel last spiked in 1980, here's the sarticle and chart.
http://www.fintrend.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/Gasoline_Inflation.asp
But the big difference as you noted was that fuel then dropped like a rock and stayed there for 20 yrs. The economic forces now are much different and a fall back is much much less likely.
US$ devaluation will hurt us badly at the pump.
Our demand for fuel is starting to exceed our supply
Despite our friendships with CA, MX and SA a good part of the world which owns oil wants to make the Satan crawl begging.
Da-da-da-dum! Start drumming it in to your noggins that you must leave your internal combustion-engined vehicles as soon as a bright, economically-feasible method of transportation comes along that doesn't require gasoline or even burning sweet oil for that matter.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Ah yes, I remember global cooling.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And I'm not sure what this has to do with $4 gas? :confuse:
What causes the warming and cooling of the Earth? One word "SUN". Scientists are expecting that this solar cycle to be of lesser activity meaning less energy coming to the earth and therefor cooler temperatures over the next decade or two.
But of course there is no money to be had in proclaiming that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well facts are facts regardless of politics, so the truth will out.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Here's a global temp chart that refutes that:
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/warming/
There are literally hundreds of studies based on historical records that would disagree with the statement that the second half of the 20th century was cooler than the first half. However what you might be talking about is that we had hotter weather in the U.S. in the first half of the 20th century but this is not correct for global temperatures.
Here's another link:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v392/n6678/abs/392779a0.html
Climate change is an extremely complex issue where bright lay people can look at the data and have considerable difficulty coming to a consensus. At this point I'm in the "ít's getting hotter" camp and that CO2 is one of the variables at work in the present scenario. And if anthropic CO2 does turn out to be a component of climate change, we are pretty much screwed. Six point three billion folks and climbing and now about one or two billion more would like to get some wheels.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
HERE
and another
RIGHT HERE!
shiftright
Visiting Host
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I wonder if we will be any closer to an honest-to-goodness 100 mpg production car for the street by then. There sure has been a lot of talk...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Gee, sounds neato! But forgive me if I don't begin celebrating just yet; the phrase "EV-1" just came to mind.
Meanwhile, I'm driving around in a Honda Civic Hybrid (which Honda has produced for several years) and getting 50 mpg already. It's competitor, the Toyota Prius, gets similar mileage, and has been produced for 10 years. That means that both companies started designing these cars 15 years ago.
When gas was $1.
Funny, isn't it, that all the genius, million-dollar-a-month executives at Ford/GM/Chrysler never thought of something like that? I mean, for all the money they make, they must be the best and brightest, right? Executives in Japanese car companies earn a fraction of what those guys make, yet they keep producing superior, innovative cars. Go figure.
Wait, you can't figure it, because it makes no sense! The U.S. guys built their entire industry around the concept that gasoline would ALWAYS be $1/gal. And that every driver would ALWAYS want a bigger, Bigger, BIGGER SUV. And that nothing would ever change.
Oh well, I guess a million dollars a month just doesn't buy what it used to. Maybe the big three need to pay MORE, you know, so they can, like, inspire the execs to do better, and stuff.
But even if they don't, we can still count on Congress to encourage new fuel-efficient technology, right? After all, they give a $2,000 tax credit for the Prius and the Civic Hybrid. OOPS! Wait a minute, those already expired. See, they were only for a limited number of hybrids.
Oh well, maybe Congress can reinstate the credits, and make them the forever kind, just like the $125,000 accelerated tax depreciation they allow for gas-guzzling work trucks.
And, of course, they can keep increasing the CAFE standards, just like they have .... OOPS! Wait a minute, they haven't increased CAFE requirements in more than 20 years. But they promise they will in the future. Just like GM promises they'll build an electric car ..... in the future.
Meanwhile, Honda will release its new hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle in limited markets this summer. But that'll probably be a temporary fad, just like hybrid cars. Just like $3 gasoline.
Yeah, that's it! This whole gas price thing is just temporary, and those savvy executives in Detroit know it. THAT'S why they're not making efficient cars, because they know that gas is gonna drop back down to $1 and everyone will buy SUVs again.
Okay, now I get it. Those guys really ARE smart, after all!
.
Chrysler did build a hybrid and felt the US buyer would not pay the premium. So it did not go into production. Honda & Toyota with their cheaper labor and deeper pockets sold their hybrids at a loss to enhance their image. The ESX3 was a higher mileage vehicle than either Honda or Toyota has offered. Both Japanese companies sold their first hybrids at more than a $10k loss per vehicle. Some would say that it was against US dumping laws.
Dodge Intrepid ESX hybrid-electric car, 1997
Vehicle: rear-engine, rear wheel drive, hybrid propulsion, 5 passenger, 4-door sedan
The ESX3's mild hybrid electric (or "mybrid") powertrain combines a clean diesel engine, electric motor, and lithium-ion battery to achieve 72 miles per gallon (3.3 liters/100 km). That is two miles per gallon better than the fuel efficiency of its predecessor, the ESX2 in 1998, and close to PNGV's goal of up to 80 mpg (2.9 liters/100 km).
Maybe if CARB had mandated PZEV instead of ZEV, GM would not have wasted all the money & time on a failed EV-1. Government involvement has slowed the MPG progress more than speed it up. Japan backed the hybrid development for their automakers.
You should "asterisk" that statement by saying it's RUMOR and not FACT. No one who really knows has ever said what the loss was, if anything. I don't count R&D costs as applicable because any revolutionary or evolutionary vehicle will have R&D costs.
Gary says, "Honda & Toyota with their cheaper labor and deeper pockets sold their hybrids at a loss to enhance their image."
I don't think their image needs enhancing any more. They always finish in the top three in just about any evaluation of the cleanest, greenest car companies. VW gets a not there too from some studies.
The fact is that the PNGV scared the Japanese into building their hybrids and when the Big Three backed off they made a huge mistake and are still playing catchup with vehicles that are not as good as what the Japanese engineers have come up with.
When I test drove the first of the Prius to be in San Diego, the sales manager told me it cost Toyota $35k to build. They were being offered for $20,000 even with a Bumper to bumper 8 year 100k mile warranty. I read similar costs for the Insight. I don't think that Toyota had a green image prior to the Prius. Honda has been a leader in mileage and emissions since coming on the scene. The Insight is still the highest mileage hybrid to be sold in the USA. I don't think Honda is sad they did not sell well.
That's why I said it's just a "rumor." Toyota has never officially said anything similar to that. In fact, they have denied it often.
The Insight was indeed possibly selling for less than it cost at first because it was a "proof of concept" vehicle that Honda utilized to arrive on the US hybrid market before anyone else. Honda likes to have "firsts" in their resume, and they probably wanted the "first" more than they wanted the profit.
It had a lot of unusually-shaped body parts and IMA hybrid technology that had never been put on a car before. My guess is that by the end of the Insight's life, when it had sold a lot more cars and they had been able to apply a much more serious volume manufacturing model to it, you can bet it was selling for a lot closer to cost than at the beginning.
The Prius had two years in Japan before it sold here, so Toyota could bring costs down for the parts and the car in general.
Toyota has denied forever that the Prius was a loss leader, and until someone closer to the Prius' accounting software writes a tell-all book, then we are all left speculating.
Er, I don't think so.
I don't really find any completely "trustworthy" links about Prius profits and I don't plan to go to Toyota corporate to try to dig out anything from the annual reports either.
Anyone notice that crude is under $90 a barrel and reports are that it'll continue to fall as production increases while the economy continues to slow? link
I bet a lot of Prius' sales are "conquest" sales, which of course is the Holy Grail of automobile marketing
I seriously doubt that we will see that in a strictly ICE car unless you have a seat on a lawn mower engine.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Maybe if aliens gave us some stronger-than-steel Unobtanium that was as light as Saran-wrap?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In China and India, disposable income is increasing throughout the populations, which consist of numbers dwarfing the U.S. citizenry. When car ownership in China and India begins to approach the market penetration in the United States, the consequences for oil wars seem too dire to contemplate.
$4 a gallon will be a buy in the near future.