Are gas prices fueling your pain?

17475777980197

Comments

  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    The GM 3800 engine is incredibly fuel efficient. I rented a Pontiac Grand Prix about 5 years ago that had this engine and was amazed at the mileage I got in a fairly heavy vehicle. I was definitely getting over 30 mpg on the highway. That is when I started doubting this whole notion that the key to fuel efficiency is small displacement, low hp/torque engines. GM's small-block V8 is also very efficient. It kind of makes you question the value of OHC in anything but the smallest engines that rev a lot higher.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,696
    > I started doubting this whole notion that the key to fuel efficiency is small displacement,

    That's what some of us have said for years. Others like what they're used to in low torque at low RPM motors needing high revs for power; but the 3800 has served very well.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,054
    I think the highest I ever paid was actually back over the summer of 2006. I remember putting 89 octane in my truck and paying around $3.25 per gallon. By October/November, we were hovering around $2.00 per gallon, but damn if it didn't gradually creep back up in 2007. :mad:

    On Monday night though, I filled up my 2000 Intrepid and I think that was the most expensive fill-up that car ever had. I ran it almost empty, so it took 15.8 gallons to fill up. Bill ran up to something like $48.85. That was a bit of a sticker shock. Although I guess it's nothing compared to people used to paying $100 or more to fill up their SUVs and big trucks.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Using large-displacement, low-power engines with really tall gearing is one path to fuel efficiency. The problem with the 3800 is that there are better ways to accomplish that. My dad's Avalon gets low 30s on the highway by loafing along at 1800 rpm @ 60 mph like the 3800, but the Toyota DOHC 3.5L can also produce power levels undreamed of by any 3800 ever made.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I think you were missing my point. I was talking about how expanding our diesel fleet would drive up the price of diesel fuel. Producing more ethanol would not help in that regard. Producing more bio-diesel might.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Can you say another 300 million cars in the world?

    India's Tata group to launch world's cheapest car

    5 hours ago

    NEW DELHI (AFP) — India's giant Tata Group will this Thursday unveil the world's cheapest car, which analysts say could revolutionize prices worldwide.

    Ratan Tata, the reclusive tycoon who heads the tea-to-steel conglomerate, will kick off an auto show here with the unveiling of the long-awaited "People's Car", which will carry a sticker price of 100,000 rupees or 2,500 dollars.

    The cheap car is a pet project of the Cornell-trained architect Ratan Tata, who helped design it, and is aimed at getting Indian families off their motorbikes and into cars.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    I got that licked... sliding rear window! Because of the airflow over a truck body, that breeze comes in from the back and feels great on the highway!
    image

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yep, Shell is Top Tier.

    And even though it may cost a few pennies more, the 5% discount from using the Shell card makes it cheaper. At $3 a gallon, that's 15 cents off. Usually the generic gas stations are at most 5 cents less, so I'm actually getting Top Tier gas for less than generic prices.

    Works for me.

    I'll stop now because I sound like an ad for Shell. :D
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am on my second tank of Shell gas in my Sequoia. I wanted to see if it would yield better mileage than Costco gas. First tank was 1/2 MPG lower. They also have a sign on the pump that says it may contain up to 10% ethanol. The station is very convenient though 20 cents per gallon more than Costco. I got better mileage on cheap gas in AZ than any gas sold in CA. I know they have it watered down to get more road tax. Those crooks in Sacramento. Paid $3.21 for Shell regular. No surcharge for using CC. Most stations in San Diego charge 10 cents per gallon for using CC.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,135
    From the Top Tier web site, "Six of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance. " So it's apparently manufacturer-driven.

    Just so no-one feels left out, here are all the brands (I use QuickTrip, they're usually cheaper than the big names.)
    QuikTrip
    Chevron
    Conoco
    Phillips
    76
    Shell
    Entec Stations
    MFA Oil Company
    Kwik Trip/Kwik Star
    The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
    Chevron-Canada
    Aloha Petroleum
    Tri-Par Oil Company
    Shell-Canada
    Texaco
    Petro-Canada
    Sunoco-Canada
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    My point is that if you're trying to build a car with a certain hp/torque rating, from an efficiency perspective, it's a bad idea to try and do this with the smallest amount of displacement. I believe this is why we've seen later generations of certain models having larger displacement engines without sacrificing mpg. A good example is the Honda S2000 with a 2.2L engine, which probably represents about the most power you can get per liter. Imagine you could fit GM's 3800 into that car. I guarantee it would get better mileage. It would probably even get the same or better mileage with GM's 6.2L small-block that's in the Corvette.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bummer for me but the nearest Costco doesn't even sell gas. The one that does it across town, so I never go.

    If the Shell gas works out, and your Seqouia likes it, you should think about getting the Shell card just for the 5% off.

    We use it only for gas, because you only get 1% back on other purchases, and our Subaru card earns us 3%.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Well, Honda chopped 1000 rpm off the redline when they debased the F20C by stroking it to a 2.2, and gave the car taller 5th and 6th gears at the same time.

    The 3800 probably would fit under the hood, though I doubt it would get any better mileage since the primary factor in the S2000's mpg figures is the fairly crappy drag coefficient.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What year did they do that?

    Also, do you remember what year they put in a glass rear window?

    I may look at used ones. Not sure.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    What year did they do that?

    2004. That was also the year they put in the clutch release delay valve, 17" wheels, a loafier steering box, and generally softened up the suspension.

    Also, do you remember what year they put in a glass rear window?

    2002

    I may look at used ones. Not sure.

    The AP1s (00-03) will cost less, but are too much for most people off the track. AP2s (04-08) are softer around the edges, about like a Solstice GXP with better build quailty and ergonomics. Easiest way to tell them apart is the headlights (individual turn signal and running light elements on the AP2) and taillights (3 circles on the AP2 versus 2 on the AP1) unless they've been swapped.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thanks.

    2 friends of mine have owned them.

    One actually rolled his at Summit Point. Insurance totalled it.

    The other had buyer's remorse and sold it a year later. Had trouble selling it, too, because it was so new and close to a new car price.

    Premium fuel only, though, right? For both engines, I believe. :(
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Premium fuel only, though, right? For both engines, I believe.

    Yep. Even though the computer can adjust the fuel maps and retard the timing to run 87 octane with an 11:1 compression ratio, it's much happier with the good stuff.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "I believe this is why we've seen later generations of certain models having larger displacement engines without sacrificing mpg"

    Too bad that while they didn't sacrifice mpg, they didn't increase it significantly either, eh?

    The problem with larger engines is they use more gas in low-load situations, like idling and cruising around town. Since most people tend to achieve fuel economy much closer to the city EPA number than the highway one, I have tended to give a big yawn to all the TV ads and whatnot touting 30 mpg or greater on the highway. That's fine, but what do they make in the city? 20, 22 mpg, you say? Pathetic. That's the mileage people are going to get 90% of the time in those vehicles.

    Now there are folks who even with a tiny 4-cylinder engine can't do better than 25 mpg or so, and certainly a lot depends on the driver and driving style and pattern. But the smaller the engine, the higher the POTENTIAL for high fuel economy, a potential that there are certainly plenty of people taking advantage of every day.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    The 3800 probably would fit under the hood, though I doubt it would get any better mileage since the primary factor in the S2000's mpg figures is the fairly crappy drag coefficient

    The Pontiac Grand Prix (3800) gets slightly better mileage than the S2000 despite weighing 600 lbs more and having a 4 spd automatic as opposed to a 6 spd manual transmission. I can't imagine the S2000's drag coefficient is much worse than the Grand Prix's. Even if it is drag is a function of cd times frontal area. The Grand Prix definitely has a larger frontal area. Regardless that is really only a factor at highway speeds. It shouldn't have much impact on city mileage where the S2000 also sucks for a small car with a small engine.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I looked up the 2008 EPA head-up-its-backside numbers for the MY '00 S2000 and Grand Prix supercharged (both make about 240 hp and both call for premium). The S2000 was 18 city/23 highway/20 combined, while the GP was 16 city/25 highway/19 combined.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,054
    I've heard that the S2000 is actually a gutless wonder in most situations, unless you run it flat-out. So it's not a good car for just loafing around at low rpms. You have to stomp it to make it go, and that's going to suck fuel.

    Also, regardless of aerodynamics, I doubt if they're going to come into play in any EPA calculations. Since the EPA tests are done on a treadmill in a testing facility, would aerodynamics even come into play? Even out in the real world, aerodynamics are meaningless for city driving, and at the speeds the EPA's highway cycle simulates, they'd be marginal, at best.
  • keepinonkeepinon Member Posts: 10
    You must live in an area with relatively "cheap" gas. It got to about $3.57 her last summer. Currently running about $3.24-$3.15. So $4.00 gas is not far away at all. Look at bloomberg for daily changes in oil and gas prices. Oil is over $97 today, wholesale gas at $2.47.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I've heard that the S2000 is actually a gutless wonder in most situations, unless you run it flat-out. So it's not a good car for just loafing around at low rpms.

    I've never driven a stock S2000, so I don't know anything about gutless. There were some crybabies who complained that they couldn't pull a cement mixer with it like they could with a V8 Mustang, so Honda caved in and mucked the car up to appease them.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Does Pontiac make a 2008 supercharged Grand Prix? I think you got those numbers from their 5.3L V8. Still good for comparison. That version of the Grand Prix is rated at 303 hp, 323 ft-lbs torque, has a 4 spd automatic and weighs 700+ lbs more than the S2000. If you really believed in this whole power/displacement being the enemy of efficiency you'd think the difference in mpg numbers would be dramatic.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Nope, the GP numbers were from the 2000 model.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    ateixeira, how did your friend get insurance to pay for a wreck that occurred on a racetrack? :|
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Idaho motorists can look forward to gasoline prices in the $3.50 a gallon range in the near future, a leading industry expert said this week."

    Idaho Statesman - may be a registration link

    Gas was $3.08 for regular yesterday here in Boise.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    will kick off an auto show here with the unveiling of the long-awaited "People's Car",

    Wow an Indian Volkswagen :shades:

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Can you say another 300 million cars in the world?

    Yeah, these other countries using our oil is starting to get annoying.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,696
    >countries using our oil is starting to get annoying.

    What we need is a good worldwide recession to lessen the demand. And then Steve adds to our depression with predictions about $3.50 gas soon since the markets have repealed the laws of supply and demand. (The link works okay, Steve. Otherwise use bugmenot.com.)

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    What we need is a good worldwide recession to lessen the demand

    I don't know if you're being facetious but I actually agree. Economies have a cyclical nature to them. We are due for a downturn and efforts to prevent it will probably just postpone it a little. My feeling is let it happen, just suck it up and get through the down cycle so we can move on to the next period of growth. As far as I'm concerned the government is already doing too much to try and mitigate some of the negative factors that currently exist. It's a losing battle.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    We are due for a downturn and efforts to prevent it will probably just postpone it a little. My feeling is let it happen, just suck it up and get through the down cycle so we can move on to the next period of growth. As far as I'm concerned the government is already doing too much to try and mitigate some of the negative factors that currently exist. It's a losing battle.

    As long as WalMart gets taken out by the revolution of the poor and working class in China, I am fine with it.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    And then Steve adds to our depression

    It's been a while since I've had opportunity to add to the annals of nattering nabobs of negativism. :shades:

    Glad to hear the link worked - it's one I stay logged in to and I never know it it's going to work for anyone else.

    I do think the prediction of $3.50 gas was a bit sensationalized. AAA probably is running versions of that story all over trying to generate some heat for some anti-bike trail lobbying effort of theirs.
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    Ah but you used oil unless you have synthetic lube on the chain,

    Yes, but it was Top Tier certified chain lube. :D
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,696
    >I don't know if you're being facetious but I actually agree.

    I am barely facetious. I don't want the pain it would cause a lot of people. What I'm more afraid of is the "government," using the term loosely, spending and manipulating natural turns of events to influence the economy for the benefit of politicians in the elections.

    I see the gasoline markets being manipulated to $4 since they have been successful at not allowing the gas prices to cycle naturally during the winter in this area at least. It is depressing. This is not a free market.

    And all I can do is complain and use less. My congress people from this area don't care.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    They say everything's bigger in Texas ..... but not gasoline prices. Ours are among the lowest in the nation.

    The price just hit $3 again this week around Dallas. So I know the victims on either coast are paying $3.50. $4 is certainly no stretch. Count on it by Memorial Day.

    What will I do when that happens? Keep driving my hybrid, of course. 18,000 miles so far, with lifetime average of 47 mpg (calculated by on-board trip computer -- not just my claim).

    You guys should try it.

    .
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    What we need is a good worldwide recession to lessen the demand.

    Remember when gas was 90 cents a gallon in 1998? That's why it was so cheap. We don't have an Alan Greenspan to firewall the US economy this time around, though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    18,000 miles so far, with lifetime average of 47 mpg (calculated by on-board trip computer -- not just my claim).

    You guys should try it.


    I would rather drive 6,000 miles @ 16 MPG in my Sequoia over the same time period. More comfort, more safety, more luxury, less gas. Mine is calculated on my spreadsheet by actual gallons used. Never trust the on-board trip calculator. They are seldom very accurate.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    They say everything's bigger in Texas ..... but not gasoline prices. Ours are among the lowest in the nation.

    I dunno about Texas, but in Colorado, we have the lowest average price for gas in the country at the moment.

    Statewide average is $2.85; my local station is currently selling regular unleaded for $2.69, and that's before the .03 or .10 per gallon discount I get for using my rewards card.

    However, it has been suggested that the price will be at $3.50 or higher by the time the peak driving season arrives.

    Guess I'll just work from home more.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think he negotiated with them, and called it "driver training".

    He did not get another one, though. Instead, he now races older Civics and CRXs, not his daily driver, and not a car worth $30k plus.

    That may have been a condition set by the insurance company.

    He's good, too, in fact he showed me his rookie of the year trophy.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Gas is actually expensive here in Potomac, MD, but my point was that with a big fuel tank and lots of range, I tend to buy gas when I'm out of town or in areas where gas is cheap.

    It's odd, but within an hour from home I'll find gas for $3.40 and then $2.89 on the same day.

    Gas Buddy helps you find the cheap stations, too. Let me check now...

    $2.99 at the 7-11 on Gude Dr. $3.01 for the Shell near it is actually a better deal because of the 5% back from the card.

    The priciest gas in town is $3.43 at the Exxon on MacArthur Blvd, which is actually right on my way to work, so I passed it today.

    YMMV.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,696
    Dayton area has $2.89 as lowest at a couple of stations. Nominal station price is $304 to $3.15.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Keep driving my hybrid, of course. ... You guys should try it.

    You mean try your car? Or do you mean try a hybrid which we'll need to make a 100+ million of for us all to try. ;) Since most auto factories are not tooled to produce hybrid models and we sell about 17M autos per year, that could not possibly happen for a good 10 years or so, even if we decided to go at that 100%. So that does not look like an option for most people.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Since most auto factories are not tooled to produce hybrid models and we sell about 17M autos per year, that could not possibly happen for a good 10 years or so, even if we decided to go at that 100%. So that does not look like an option for most people.

    Interesting comment. Every year on this site the Editors give their reccommendation for vehicles within each class. It never occurred to me how ridiculous that was. Obviously we can't all go out and buy one of these vehicles because, as you so astutely point out, the manufacturing capacity just isn't there. What are these Editors thinking about? But they're not the only ones. I saw just last night an advertisement for a cruise line. It seemed to me that they were suggesting that people take cruises. Like they could really accommodate 300 million American tourists.
  • rick294rick294 Member Posts: 77
    It's not some flimsy tin can. It has ultra high strength steel in the door post between the doors and 6 airbags. Drives like a dream, once you get the hang of it. My wife and I were looking at a Scion Xb, but the 22/28 gas mileage estimate did it in, I'm afraid. Prius gets about double that. In all good conscience, we couldn't buy anything else. I'd recommend the car to anyone. And they hold their value like crazy, to boot. But fame can be fleeting. Once plug-in hybrids get established and useful in the real world with better batteries, they will be the Number #1 choice. It's a brave new world out there!
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Once plug-in hybrids get established and useful in the real world with better batteries, they will be the Number #1 choice. It's a brave new world out there!

    This is an unrealistic option for masses of people, unless you are advocating a major construction project of electrical power-plants around the country. Even without plug-in hybrids we are headed towards being short on electricity.

    "This past summer New England's operating margin was 11.8 percent. But in five years the margin is projected to decrease to 4.9 percent, and in 10 years the demand for electricity is expected to outpace available generating resources, leaving the region with a 2.3 percent shortfall."

    http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071130/OPINION/71130- 0309
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think he negotiated with them, and called it "driver training".

    He did not get another one, though. Instead, he now races older Civics and CRXs, not his daily driver, and not a car worth $30k plus.

    That may have been a condition set by the insurance company.


    Apparently with the time trials I used to do, the deal was you had a lap timer in your car. If you had a good day, you turned your lap timer in and you were part of the competition. If you didn't turn it in, you were part of the "driving school."

    I did see an early S2000 obliterate itself on turn 1 at Buttonwillow (went off on the infield, tried to catch it, spun across the track and hit the inside wall - rookies in touchy cars shouldn't violate the go off/stay off rule), and I saw an upside down '98 or so Impreza 2.5RS coming down the hill after magic mountain going counter clockwise. My guess is he got sideways, slid off and then the car tripped in the sand.

    Since I've pretty much learned all the west coast tracks, really want to try mid-Ohio and Gingerman. Its too bad I don't still have the Contour, I fear the Accord wouldn't be much fun out there.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I get the sense that you actually take pleasure in being negative. That's unfortunate.

    Most people promoting PHEV's realize that the maximum benefit will be achieved by these vehicles being charged at off peak hours. The electicity will cost less for the vehicle owner and the utility will benefit by selling more of their product when they have excess capacity. A win-win situation. I defy you to find a credible article that indicates the utilities are opposed to PHEV's. If you want I can find plenty that indicate they are very supportive of this technology.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Nominal station price is $304

    :surprise: wow thats expensive over three hundred a gallon. Glad I don't live there.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    "A 1980s Civic was capable of 50 MPG. A new Civic is lucky to get over 30 MPG combined. Now tell me how far we have advanced in the last 20 years."

    Here's your dream come true. Old man Tata in India just released his dream car. It gets 50 mpg. It weighs 1,000 lbs. It has 33 hp. It costs $3,000.

    Here's the article, complete with pictures:

    http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/article3164205.ece

    .
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