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Comments
yes but we're kind of stuck with it now. I think we mean, cities with little housing and most of the workers living in the suburbs?
The amount of time and gas being wasted in congestion is growing at a fairly rapid pace.
I suggest people look for jobs in uncongested areas or ask for a lot more money. I work in a very small city, and if someone offered me a job in a congested area, there would need to be a lot more $ in my check.
I've known several people that lived in the South Bay area of SF that would drive their car a couple miles to the train staion and then take the train into the financial district to work.
And I've driven to train stations and there is no parking left at the train station, so rather than pay for parking, then take the train, then walk, I drive and park at my destination. And SF weather is fairly nice; Boston gets below zero with wind-chill; most people prefer their heated car, rather than walking on ice or standing outside waiting for a bus.
And unless you're riding during non-peak times, a seat on the train is about a 50-50 proposition. I would also say this is true in Phil, and NYC from my brief experiences.
PS
You are not even allowed to carry a gun to protect yourself from thieves that are well armed. Mass transit is worthless.
The exaggerations are really coming fast and furious today.
The day will come for most of us when we can no longer safely drive ourselves from pt. A to pt. B. If mass transit is unnacceptable then what are we to rely on? I find the idea of living in some retirement community with a bunch of other geezers waiting to die to be unnacceptable. I want some degree of mobilitly even when I can't drive myself and relying on family members does not represent freedom as far as I'm concerned.
I've ridden on many buses in San Diego and Los Angeles. Granted it's not as convenient as driving your own vehicle but it is cheaper. I've never had a gun pulled on me. I've never caught the plague, and I've never had to sit next to someone so fowl smelling that it was intolerable. The buses are air conditioned and if I want to listen to my own music I'll bring my iPod. I'll admit that mass transit in this country pretty much sucks but when you attack it with descriptions that don't represent reality you are only discrediting your position.
Mine doesn't and as far as I know none that I have worked at had any. Of course there is the state police HQ in the basement might have one.
And time is only money if you're not riding fast enough.
Well fast enough has to be 65 MPH or I will lose a lot of $ this winter.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Public transportation works best when the population is very centralized as living in a major city. Once you start having les centralized population like the suburbs and rural ares public transportation starts to lose its effectiveness.
Basically public transportation works well in the city of Chicago (when I am from) but loses effectiveness once you start moving out to the burbs.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
PS
I was never checked for a weapon getting on the Trolley. That means there could be armed and dangerous people riding the trolley.
Another very fine point. Why is it the law that you have your own seat equipped WITH a seatbelt in your car, and there are NO seatbelts on buses and trains? Standing should be prohibited on buses and trains as unsafe. It also adds to the disease risk as well as the smells. I find mass transit a sign of degradation in our society. There is plenty of room in this country to spread out. It would be healthier in every aspect for US to do so. Right now there is over 8 acres for every man, woman and child in this country. We should be using it.
"Shots fired on Interstate"
link link and, oh, here's one from San Diego just this morning - link
My first house was originally a summer cabin. When it was built there was no easy way to the development except by a 12 mile long streetcar track from town. Can't blame all sprawl on the auto.
Seat belts for school buses may be coming - I rode an intercity bus in Italy earlier this year that was equipped with seatbelts come to think of it. Secretary Peters Catches Bus to School, Proposes New Safety Rules for School Buses
ModBob has a fun story lined up for tomorrow's Alternate Route blog -all about the impact we as individuals can have.
In other news, I filled up the Outback last night for $2.99 a gallon for regular.
Mine doesn't and as far as I know none that I have worked at had any. Of course there is the state police HQ in the basement might have one.
Wow, thats rough. I think every place I have worked has had a shower facility (and bike lockers) on the Campus.
And time is only money if you're not riding fast enough.
Well fast enough has to be 65 MPH or I will lose a lot of $ this winter.
I have found that traffic + parking space hunt = cycling commuting time, so if i lose 10 minutes of my day for a shower, I think its a worthwhile investment.
I was never checked for a weapon getting on the Trolley. That means there could be armed and dangerous people riding the trolley.
You know, its the darnest thing, I can't remember the last time they checked me for a weapon at the grocery store, McDonalds, or at school for that matter. I don't know what I am going to do.
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=773208
You must work for an oil company or own stock.
For those that worry about how efficient batteries are, do you really think that they will never improve? I used to have an Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser Station Wagon, it got 4-6 miles to the gallon of gas. Roll forward 15-20 years and similar purpose autos get 18-25 Mpg. 4 to 5 times more efficient.
But EVs can not be the only answer. I hate the idea of those hydrogen fuel cells, seems like just another way for the industry to keep it's regular fuel model. It is really just another electric car with an expensive battery anyway. Why are we only thinking of ICE and Electric? Both technologies are over a century old.
Recently I saw a news story about burning water for fuel. The tech was really interesting. The funny thing was they could actually place a florescent light bulb between the beams (which did no harm to humans) and it would light. That sounds like broadcast power to me.
On campus thats the key, wait until you get into the real world where companies care about expenses.
I have found that traffic + parking space hunt = cycling commuting time,
Unless you're one of those idiots that drive around trying to find the closest parking space the parking space hunt should be short lived.
so if i lose 10 minutes of my day for a shower,
Add to that the hour longer it takes to get to work via a bike and it adds up quickly.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In my case I wonder if pedaling to work is even taking ANY additional time than a car when looking at the overall weekly picture. It takes me 25 minutes by car and I can pedal it in 45 minutes by bike. I weigh that against how much time would be spent working out at a gym several times per week to exercise.
When I used to work days, I would see groups of people jogging around various neighborhoods at 5:45 a.m. as I rode through. That certainly has to be taking up a lot of time that could otherwise be spent exercising their way to work.
Also, I take a shower before I drive to work. On bike commuting days I just wait until I get to work before showering.
Okay, I know my promoting a healthy lifestyle while cutting down on gas isn't going to persuade anyone to dust off their old bike hanging on the garage wall and start riding. People will still complain about $4/gal gas prices, etc.
I tried to get my wife to just ride for fun and exercise. First she said that she needed a different saddle - I fixed that. Then she needed different pedals - I fixed that. Finally, I told her to stop trying to think of excuses NOT to ride and just go out and do it. Her bike has been sitting in the basement on the trainer ever since, 3 years ago.
Anyone want a good deal on a Trek 2000 WSD, originally $1,000?
They just opened a new tollway here in IL, the I-355 extension. When they built it they did so with a right of way alongside the road where a bike path can be built. Right now they are trying to raise funds to build the bike path.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Actually, I was talking about the Jabil Circuit's San Jose campus, Ford's Dearborn Campus, Cisco's San Jose Campus, and what is now Raytheon's Santa Barbara Campus.
Unless you're one of those idiots that drive around trying to find the closest parking space the parking space hunt should be short lived.
Riiiiight. I am talking about any piece of property with enough room for a vehicle that isn't painted blue or red.
Add to that the hour longer it takes to get to work via a bike and it adds up quickly.
Wow, maybe that riding too slow does play a role. My dad's commute is 20 minutes by car, 40 minutes by bike and he's like 60.
Its amazing how difficult it is for people to get their hands around the idea that others might have different cirucmstances in their lives...its like the Inmates are Running the Assylum book.
What size is the frame? My wife has a Trek 6700 WSD and I am getting tired of swapping between knobbies and slicks depending on the terrain. Her frame is tiny, but she has clipless pedals, bike shoes, shorts, and an appropriate saddle. She looks pretty tough when she is ready to ride.
When you venture out at 2:30 AM in any major city in the US, it is a dangerous situation. Why do you think I moved further out. I hate cities. I wish I did not have to go downtown to catch a flight. Thankfully I don't do more than a couple to Hawaii per year. I can count on one hand the times I go into the city every year. NEVER at night.
Three things caused my daughter to quit letting my grandson ride the bus to school. The $2 per day charge, No seat belts & the fumes when the kids have to line up next to an idling bus.
No seat belts in buses has always baffled me. When I went to work for Pac Telephone in 1961, seat belts were a requirement. The quickest way to get fired was have a boss walk up to your truck and the seat belt not be fastened. I got out of the habit in Prudhoe bay where most of the time you did not go over 30 MPH.
On the EPA mileage website the 2002 RAV4 EV says crash tests NA. I cannot even find a listing for the EV-1. Probably because it was never sold. I know for a fact the first Prius was very poor and given a waiver on side impact tests.
For those that worry about how efficient batteries are, do you really think that they will never improve? I used to have an Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser Station Wagon, it got 4-6 miles to the gallon of gas. Roll forward 15-20 years and similar purpose autos get 18-25 Mpg. 4 to 5 times more efficient.
I would expect battery technology to improve. Will it improve enough to be a good source of energy storage for a mainstream car? I have no idea.
Your experience and mine on mileage gains are night and day. My 1988 GM 4X4 PU truck got 14 MPG average. My 2005 2WD GMC hybrid PU was lucky to get 15 MPG average. I did squeeze good mileage on a trip out of CA where the gas is not watered down. My 2007 Sequoia gets about 15 MPG so far. A 1980s Civic was capable of 50 MPG. A new Civic is lucky to get over 30 MPG combined. Now tell me how far we have advanced in the last 20 years.
We agree on Hydrogen being a big joke and just another way to keep us tied to fossil fuel.
PS
I am retired. Hopefully my 401K has some oil stocks.
On Wednesday, one floor trader bought 1,000 barrels, the smallest amount permitted, and sold it immediately for $99.40 at a $600 loss, said Stephen Schork, a former floor trader on the New York Mercantile Exchange and the editor of an oil market newsletter.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7169543.stm
The only similarity between a 1980's Civic and today's Civic is the name. Today's Civic is comparable in size and power to a 1980's Accord and it does get better mileage.
He'll go down in history....as the dumbest oil trader ever.
You can get seriously injured (even killed) in crashes at 30 mph.
Run as fast as you can into a brick wall and don't protect your face. You were running about 12-18 MPH (depending on your age and ability) when you hit the wall.
Now imagine slamming your face into a windshield or a dash or a door at 30 mph.
Speed and seatbelt use are not linear. Unless you are staying in a parking lot or a driveway, wear your seatbelt EVERY time you get into a vehicle.
To you and me, yes, but these are folks that'll spend $600 on dinner for two or a pair of shoes, so getting bragging rights for $600 is no big deal to them. Different (and warped, IMHO) world.
Now imagine slamming your face into a windshield or a dash or a door at 30 mph.
When you run into a brick wall your deceleration to zero is immediate. That's not the case in an automobile accident. Also brick walls don't come with airbags.
And yes larsb you can get hurt at 30 MPH without a seatbelt. My partner slow rolled our truck into a ditch and I was thrown around in the cab. No serious injuries. A couple bruises. I did go back to wearing my seatbelt after that rollover.
And you have the option of wearing a helmet.
How much safety we want in our cars is sometimes a matter of what comfort, convenience, and fashion you're willing to accept.
I also agree with gagrice. If we really wanted high mpg cars , we'd say screw whatever regulations keep us from making the 40+ mpg cars from the 80's. With modern technology like direct-injection they could get 50mpg from those same type engines.
"It's not a matter of if, but when," he warned investors. "It's going to hit this year hard."
Mr. Coxe said the sharp rise in raw food prices in the past year will intensify in the next few years amid increased demand for meat and dairy products from the growing middle classes of countries such as China and India as well as heavy demand from the biofuels industry.
"The greatest challenge to the world is not US$100 oil; it's getting enough food so that the new middle class can eat the way our middle class does, and that means we've got to expand food output dramatically," he said.
The impact of tighter food supply is already evident in raw food prices, which have risen 22% in the past year.
Mr. Coxe said in an interview that this surge would begin to show in the prices of consumer foods in the next six months. Consumers already paid 6.5% more for food in the past year.
Wheat prices alone have risen 92% in the past year, and yesterday closed at US$9.45 a bushel on the Chicago Board of Trade.
At the centre of the imminent food catastrophe is corn - the main staple of the ethanol industry. The price of corn has risen about 44% over the past 15 months, closing at US$4.66 a bushel on the CBOT yesterday - its best finish since June 1996.
This not only impacts the price of food products made using grains, but also the price of meat, with feed prices for livestock also increasing.
With 54% of the world's corn supply grown in America's mid-west, the U.S. is one of those countries with an edge.
But Mr. Coxe warned U.S. corn exports were in danger of seizing up in about three years if the country continues to subsidize ethanol production. Biofuels are expected to eat up about a third of America's grain harvest in 2007.
The amount of U.S. grain currently stored for following seasons was the lowest on record, relative to consumption, he said.
http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=213343
Maybe the US was not such a bad actor when we were handing out tons and tons of food aid because the prices were so low. Now that the hand-outs are drying up, they will come calling on us to help out. That would be the same people that protest us and call us the great satan. Sorry, but my sympathy only goes so far.
I am not against the family farmer, though so few are left. I am against the mega ag corporation farms. They have provided us cheap food in the USA for a long time. How good is the food they are selling US?
Gas is still cheap compared to many things we buy now.
Milk is expensive. We drink 6 gallons a week in my family.
Forget hybrids. I need to buy a COW.
Now we're talking!
Of course we all know the deezel cow-cken is really much more efficient and cheaper but government regulations would keep them out of the USA due to their, um, emissions.
I hope that's 1% milk, or you are gonna have a FAMILY full of Cows!!!
I could even go skim but the kids are supposed to get some fat, so doc said 1 or 2%.
As far as batteries are concerned I am speculating. I work as a Systems Engineer and have seen that technology evolve at amazing rates in the last 10 years. Call me an optimist.
I guess a big truck then vs. a big truck now still equals crappy gas mileage. As far as the 1980 Honda Civic goes, come on! They were about the size of a basketball and had a souped up lawnmower motor for an engine. :lemon: It is comparing apples to oranges. The 1980 Honda's were little econo-boxes while the models now have 3 times the horse power and are pretty much just short of a mid-size sedan.
As far as 4 bucks a gallon goes, it is just the foot hills of the mountain of increasing fuel costs. We need to be open to new tech and alternatives to what is the status quo. The mega oil/auto industries want us to buy into the status quo and continue to fill their pockets and empty ours.
as for riding bicycles on busy public roads is i n s a n e in my humble opinion. i rode a bike to work during the late 1970s but would never do it today on the sme roads. there's actually a bike path nearby now. but to get to it i'd have to fight incredibly hazardous commuter/car traffic.
gagrice, wow, you have city-phobia! seat-belts on school buses are a problem. the kids don't wear them. instead they use them to hit each other. there's no workable way to get the kids to wear the belts.
cheers!
as for public transportation, bwahahahahaha! yeah right.
as for DC beltway (495), i'm happy i don't have to commute there - i time my traversals there for late-night or around 6AM.
I like to think of it as a healthy respect for the pitfalls associated with jamming people close together.
I worked hard 45 years to be able to live away from the horde. I have retired at a healthy distance from the masses. My area is zoned minimum one acre lots. I moved here in July and know all the neighbors around me. We watch each others homes while the other is away. It is extremely quiet with NO highway noises. No street lights at night to pollute the starry sky. I like it that way. I don't care if gas is $4, $5, or $10 per gallon. I will pay it to live away from the city. Our two local grocery stores are actually closer than the stores from our home down in the crowded suburbs.
The bus stops in front of the grocery store. It is 2.8 miles from the house. I can take the bus for a 12 mile ride to the trolley and 15 more miles to downtown San Diego. Takes about an hour forty five minutes I am told. Or I can jump on Interstate 8 and be there in 25 minutes. Takes about that long to get to the beach or the San Diego Zoo also. We do like walking around the Zoo on a regular basis. We are usually home before lunch time. If we took the bus and trolley it would be an all day tiring affair.
Well, it depends on how you want to spin those numbers. A 1985 CRX (or Civic HF coupe, according to the EPA) had a mileage sticker of 49/54, with a combined number of 51. Sounds impressive, right? Well, when they adjust it to the 2008 formula, it's down to 40/48, with a combined number of 43.
The new 2008 Civic is rated at 25/36, with a combined figure of 29. That's with the automatic transmission. Seems like a big drop, at first. But now, let's compare the new Civic to a model a bit more equivalent in 1985...a model with a back seat and an automatic transmission. Suddenly, we're down to ratings of 23/26, with a combined figure of 24. One big reason the '85 Civic's highway figures were so low is that it only had a 3-speed automatic. No doubt a 4-speed would have helped a lot.
A 1985 Accord, which is a lighter, smaller car than the 2008 Civic, was rated at 21/28 with a 4-speed automatic, with a combined figure of 24. I think if you do apples-to-apples comparisons of cars, for the most part you'll find they have improved in fuel economy over the years. The ultra-high-mileage variations, which were never much more than niche cars to begin with, have been dropped without replacement, but the more mass-market cars, for the most part, have improved.
Honda really didn't make a direct equivalent of the 2008 Civic back in 1985. Nothing they had was that big. About the closest Japanese equivalent would be the 1985 Camry. EPA rated at 23/29 with a combined figure of 26, with a 4-speed automatic. Oddly, in this case, a bigger car is getting better economy, yet it's still below the 2008 Civic.
And to compare a 2008 Accord to anything in 1985, well there is no Japanese equivalent. A similar-sized car from 1985 would be something like a Bonneville, Cutlass Supreme, Gran Fury, Diplomat, etc. And under the new rating system, any of those cars would be lucky to break 15/22, and I doubt if any of them had a combined rating any higher than 19.
It sucks that the automakers have focused almost solely on boosting hp and weight in the last 20 years, instead of continuing to offer at least some models with truly superlative fuel economy. And now that gas prices have become an issue, instead of offering us models like the HX, they have taken the route of complexity and added environmental impact by offering us hybrids instead. I don't even find the hybrids that inspiring in their frugality: the Civic hybrid seems to be getting people around the same mileage that HX was, for the extra investment of about $8K at purchase time. Even the Prius only makes high 40s. By contrast I am still averaging 41 in my 5 year old Echo, a car that cost even less than the former Civic HX.
I would like a lot more choices that make 50 mpg or better in real world driving.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The fact is the added weight and horses are necessary for adding all the safety features, emissions controls and not to mention the all the other junk the average person wants in a car.
The Prius gas mileage may not seem that awe inspiring when compared to a 1980 Honda or a Echo, but it is considered a mid-size sedan. Compare it to a Mitsubishi Galant (I had one, the Prius actually has more interior space) for example. You get more than 2 times the Gas mileage. Also the Prius may seem complex, but they are rated extremely reliable. I remember when you would have been crazy to buy a car with electric windows because the motors would burn out all the time. Try to find a new car with roll down windows now.
I questioned if they passed the crash tests. I tried your link and it was down. Today I tried finding the two EVs and a search listed nothing. The EPA site that has links to crash tests says that the 2002 RAV4 EV crash tests are NA (not available). Not that it makes any difference. I would own one if it was reasonably priced as is. Paying $50k to $100k for a car of very limited capabilities is strictly for those that need to show off. You know like the goof balls in Hollywood. More money than brains.
I personally was upset when CA pulled the rug out from under the EV programs. I have contemplated converting my 99 Ranger PU to electric when the V6 croaks. I have test driven EVs. Crash tests would not be important in my decision to buy an EV. My point was the Feds will regulate them to the point they are not worth building.
Not everyone is interest in an overly complex hybrid. Who wants to spend an extra $10,000 for a small commuter car. Try buying a Prius out the door for under $25k. You rebuked my statement about crash worthiness. The Prius has a 4 star rating where most in its class are 5 star rated. What will happen when you add another 500 lbs of batteries to an already overly bloated poor handling car like the Prius?
And what did Toyota do to the Prius after 2005 to have the crash scores go down? Seems the 2004 & 05 are safer than the 06.07 & 08 Prius.
PS
A 1988 Honda CRX HF that gets an honest 50 MPG combined is just as safe today as it was in 1988. Safety starts behind the wheel.
http://www.automotive.com/2005/101/honda/civic/hx-coupe/881/safety/index.html
Those of the Prius are here:
http://www.automotive.com/2008/12/toyota/prius/safety/index.html
Just about the same. The Prius is worse in some categories, the Civic is worse in one other.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What percentage of your driving would you say is highway, Nippon? And how fast do you normally drive? With the 2008 down-rated numbers, the Echo stick shift is down to 30/38. The Prius is 48/45. If you do a lot of highway driving, there probably won't be much difference between a Prius and an Echo, but if your commute is mainly short distance, stop and go type driving, and don't see a highway that often, the Prius might still do considerably better.
But then, if you're mainly doing short distance driving, the fuel savings would probably never justify the added cost of the hybrid.
Again - the government site listing Crash testing was down? Maybe I mis-posted the link, here it is again. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/
I paid 23k for my Prius with most of the frills. The average price for Mid-Size sedan similar to it ranges from 20k to 25k at least when I went shopping. In fact I even went to the Honda dealer here and priced out a Civic and it ended up around the same price as the Prius.
I find the Prius pretty fun to drive - but you are right, it's no race car. Also I agree with you that not everyone is interested in an overly complex hybrid. ICE is pretty complex too. Thats why I would opt for a reasonably priced EV with a workable commuter range if it existed. I really hope you are wrong about the Federal regs.
If car companies like Tesla can make a go of it I am hoping that the Auto leaders will read the writing on the wall.
I think the things that sold me on the Prius was that it got gas mileage like a small commuter car but offered a lot more. Every one of the little cars I tested had a lot of road noise. The Prius seems pretty quiet, and compared to the Galant I had I only visit the gas pump half as often. I know it seems like a little thing but 2 trips to the pump a month compared to 4 or 5 is more time I can spend doing something else.
Again, I want to appologise if I have come off as a troll.
You are right about safety too although I do not mind a little front and side airbag insurance. :shades:
I am a bit bitter with CA regulations. Both with EVs and diesel cars and small PU trucks. I tried buying an electric PU truck to run my errands. I was only 3 miles from all my shopping, banking and PO. The CA regs would not allow a NEV on any street posted over 35 MPH. Well the street at the end of my road is posted 45 MPH. I cannot buy a small diesel PU truck for errands because of the quacks running CARB that have a long running vendetta against diesels. I imagine the ring leader bought an early GM diesel car and hated it. I finally gave up and have an old beater Ford Ranger for work around the place and a very comfortable SUV for taking trips. I do not believe anyone in the government is interested in saving on fossil fuel. So why should I worry? There is plenty left to last my lifetime.
PS
The 2002 RAV4-EV is Not Rated on your link.
link title