By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I was interested in your post on gas prices now in the UK. I wondered how much they had gone up with the run up in oil prices. Was diesel and unleaded about the same price?
If Ford would sell their diesel Ranger here or a Toyota HiLux diesel, I would get right behind you in line. It will not happen as long as certain people are left in CARB to push their anti diesel views on all of CA. They have an agenda and fuel conservation is not part of it.
And as for performance... hmmm... as I was driving down the freeway the other day in my 4 cylinder Tacoma, I said to my friend that was with me... look, we're all going 80 MPH, and it doesn't matter if you have a 4 cylinder or a V12. The times you can use performance anymore are pretty much NEVER. I remember when we all drag raced from every stoplight. DOESN'T happen anymore.
If I want performance, I just get out one of the motorcycles... and still get 45 MPG.
That is an extreme example, dissimilar to what I state. What I state is simply what reasonable society has always accepted - a person can go to a fuel dealer and buy all the fuel they want for their personal consumption and use it as they wish. If you have a 200 foot yacht you can sail it at full-speed up and down each coast (Travel Channel story). And everyone is going to say that is reasonable, as we know that might be reasonable for the wealthy. Now I'm just saying that if you allow that sort of reasonableness, then I don't see why an individual can not use up to that amount of fuel and it still be reasonable. If a person is allowed to burn 500 gal/day in a yacht, then I don't see why anyone has a problem with someone driving a Hummer.
It is not the same as Bill Gates buying every tanker of oil next month.
Or perhaps not. During the Great Depression many wealthy people hid their fancy cars and had Model A Fords built with extra luxury features instead. Fancy cars were sometimes attacked because a lot of people were VERY hard up.
Maybe if there was an energy crisis and it caused real hardship, then burning up fuel would be considered extremely anti-social? Interesting to speculate.
I don't get the Hummer criticism either; to my mind, just driving a Hummer is punishment enough. As for yachts, as long as they don't pollute or dump, and don't make outrageous close-offshore noise, who cares? The market will charge the appropriate price. At $10 a gallon in a mega-yacht, even a multi-millionaire might wince if a day cruise cost $15,000 just for fuel. (160 gallons an hour for the big boys).
Of course those "environmentalist" ladies are the same ones that keep blocking widening 101 from 2 lanes through Montecito so that its not a parking lot because they think it won't be as aesthetically pleasing. That is not supporting the environment to inhibit effective transportation and leave 100s of cars idling getting 0 mpg and spewing pollutants into the atmosphere as they sit.
People don't think like that, though, as a rule. We all tend to operate in our immediate self-interest. Genetically wired perhaps?
That's true to a point. My point has always been - don't pick on the motorist which is a relatively useful use of fuel, when there are people using fuel for a lot less practical uses, or using more energy. Don't tell me to conserve, until you get the big-guys to conserve. Do that first. (Ex. Don't tell me that I need to turn my thermostat down, when you have some people with multiple homes that are large, frequently vacant, but always heated and AC'ed.)
If Mr. X says we are short of water in the neighborhood but has a swimming pool, still---we are either getting short of water or we aren't. If it's true, we will both suffer together anyway, perhaps me a bit sooner until he finishes drinking his swimming pool.
We can only pull our own weight in this world. Changing other people's behavior *sometimes* results in a worse situation. That's why bad laws are ignored. People need to see that everyone is cooperating and pulling their own weight, or MOST people.
But you can't, the reality of the issue is that the messenger and the message are intertwined.
If Mr. X says we are short of water in the neighborhood but has a swimming pool,
That is the issue, if Mr. X says we are short of water and should conserve water but wastes a lot using his pool which speaks more? Why should I conserve water when Mr. X who says we should isn't? The old saying "Actions speak louder than words" is true.
In other words why should I take advice from someone who will not even follow their own advice?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If 99% of your community ends up conserving water, believe me, Mr. Swimming Pool will start to conserve water.
The buck stops with you (or me).
You miss the point. The person saying we must conserve water is not doing so. If he thinks we are running out of water and need to conserve then why is he wasting it? Actions speak louder than words.
Now in the case of Al Gore, he is saying we should reduce our greenhouse emissions. Now why should I believe a thing he says since he puts out so much more in a single trip complaining about GHG than I do all year in my daily life? Its a perfect example of do as I say not as I do. Why in the world should I do what he says I should do if he is not doing a thing about it himself.
Many decades ago they were showing a PSA on TV against teenage smoking using Popeye the sailor. Do you know how stupid it looked for a cartoon character with a pipe in his mouth telling kids not to smoke?
Now tell me why should anyone listen to someone who will not follow their own advice?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If we lived on Pleasant St. and gas was $10 a gallon, and one rich guy down the block kept his 62 foot RV idling, spewing out black smoke, for two hours, don't you think the neighbors would get on his case (one way or the other?).
Same with Al Gore. He was pilloried in the press and now he is shaping up his energy act apparently.
Your logic escapes me in this case.
And what good would that do the community?
If the premise is that a) there is too much obscenity in Forum X, and that b) too much obscenity is bad for a public forum, then what the Moderator does should not determine what you do individually. One works on one's belief in the truth and what's good for the group.
I belief energy policy needs a huge overhaul and I'm willing to pitch in.
Since Al Gore is one of the more vocal people regarding this so called problem what he does or doesn't do is very relevant to the problem. His actions show his real concerns with the problem.
If we lived on Pleasant St.
Unless the guy with the 62 foot RV is going around telling everyone else to conserve fuel your example is a accurate to the discussion at hand.
Your logic escapes me in this case.
Maybe I can explain it better with a few examples.
First one is that many years ago I had a friend that sold Pontiacs. When he found out I was looking at getting a new car he started to try to sell me a Pontiac. Now while he sold Pontiacs he drove a Subaru. Before he went to far into trying to get me to buy one I asked him if they were such good cars why was he driving a Subbie? He was trying to tell me how great a car that he himself wouldn't drive was.
Another example I am a Tax prepairer and a couple of times each tax season someone come up to me with some tax scheme that he read in so and so's book or at their seminar. Turns out that these people file their tax returns not using the methods they explain in their books and such. When I tell these people that little fact their faces seem to sink and they forget about following that plan.
You see the message falls on deaf ears when the messenger ignores their own message.
Tell me if I told you to do something that I myself was unwilling to do would you do it?
If I were a host on a forums and removed posts that were obscene, while posting obscene posts myself,
thats my point, why should we accept the no obscenity rule from you when you yourself won't adhere to it?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But that's just it, you have to decide if an obscenity-free forum is a goal worth working for on its own merits. If so, you start with your own actions and words, even as you work on getting the moderator to improve his own actions and words.
Judge the message and act accordingly. Don't judge the messenger.
If gas gets to $4, $5, $6 a gallon in the next few years, I think most posting here will be taking actions to reduce the pain to their wallets, regardless of their views on societal issues. Oil is back up on the futures market, and the gas in my area is going back up again, a trend which runs counter to the normal behavior of gas prices at this time of year. I will see $4/gallon before April 1, I am sure. Will I see $5 spikes in the hottest part of the driving season next summer? Who knows. I hope not.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Thats just it, my actions and words. If I went in calling for an obscenity free forum and used obscenity how well would my message get across. How well would my words be taken if my actions betray them? I would get nowhere fast.
Judge the message and act accordingly. Don't judge the messenger.
If the messenger doesn't follow the message the message is meaningless.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Anyway, returning to the $4/gallon topic. We went through a couple months of declining gas prices, which made this thread somewhat meaningless. Well with Pakistan about to implode and other Middle East unrest I think that $4+/gallon fuel prices could be imminent. So let's get back to whining about how Americans have a birthright to cheap gas.
snake: "If the messenger doesn't follow the message the message is meaningless. "
I think you rely too much on your fellow man for learning, if you believe that. The message is merely the transmission of an idea. The idea can be judged independently by you.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If you want to eliminate crime, an economist starts off with "okay, what does it cost to put X number of people in jail?" Then, what does it cost to rehabilitate them as kids before they go to jail?"
The person injecting social values will say "oh, those kids don't deserve to be rehabilitated. I won't pay for that".
But they will pay for the jails. So they aren't solving the problem in terms of pure economics.
What Al Gore does is indeed irrelevant, because either what he say is true or it isn't.
So all you have to worry about is if he is right, not if he is moral. That's not part of the problem to be solved.
Humans like to politicize and socialize things, and they never get solved.
With seat belts, it was easier. More belts get clipped on, fewer people die. Badda-bing! We're done. We didn't care who wore them or not, we saw the common sense of it.
Benutto killed may not impact fuel much. Osama feeling upset about his setbacks in Iraq so he struck at something America liked. Benutto.
Next summer I will will be using 100 less gallons a month than last summer due to moving.
Maybe we should determine if $4 gas is a problem? It would be a welcome sight in the UK and most of the EU. No one really knows how much oil is in the ground yet to be discovered. It is all speculation that drives the price up. We know that OPEC could produce more than they are producing. It is a squeeze play to keep the prices up. They now know we will pay near a $100 per barrel and not slow down our usage.
I do agree with Snake that anyone that says one thing and does another is not to be listened to. Just read about such a person named Comsky. Gets rich off of the US military grants while bad mouthing the US military. Calls the US a dictatorship. People like that and Gore are lucky I am not the dictator in this country. They would be executed for treason. Without an appeal.
That's human nature though. There's one guy around here who kept knocking Toyota for months and then he went out and bought one. :P
No one listens to me anyway. Just the hosts to make sure I stay close to topic. :shades:
Behold, I won a Mustang 4cyl turbo Pacecar in a contest 2-3 years after that. I decided I could live with "free." Drove it about a year and sold it easily at full asking price on first call out of that advertisement.
Now I don't know that I could buy a Toyota..., but if one were given to me, I know I'd take it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
We know that OPEC could produce more than they are producing. It is a squeeze play to keep the prices up.
Did you see the ADN story the other day where the State of Alaska is trying to kick Exxon/Mobile out of Point Thomson? Seems that Exxon has been sitting on the leases but hasn't developed the field. They've been sitting for 30 years now.
Point Thomson is believed to hold huge reserves of natural gas.
I would think that a second oil line and a gas line would be less overall expense. There is still a lot of oil in the Arctic. And a minimum of 25 trillion cu ft of gas. Probably many times more. Currently there is I believe a 2 foot pipe to Badami. That field was somewhat of a disappointment to BP. Though it is still flowing and making them money. That may not be enough to handle Pt Thompson if it is brought into production. You wonder what the state would do if they did win. There are only 2-3 oil companies with the money to handle those leases.
I feel like as a responsible person who drives a fuel efficient vehicle that is NOT a hybrid....5 star safety ratings, etc. that I have to foot the ill for the unrelenting demand for fuel to use in every 2 ton plus box that people drive as if there is not tomorrow........selfishness to the max and now no way out for all of us when we should have been working on solutions instead of mounting a 2.6 trillion debt for nothing in the Mideast [bottom line - you did not get the bad guy that did 9/11- no matter what you say...]
why the aggresson about al gore - hang for treason?? Do you people hear what you sound like??
There is no real solution now...expect try too slowly to patch all the holes....
Why do you feel like you are carrying the load? There is a lot more to conservation than driving a fuel efficient car. How about keeping a car for 15+ years to avoid the massive use of energy and pollution during the manufacturing of a new car? I also find the NHTSA crash ratings misleading. There are many of those 2 ton SUVs that so many people like to slander that are much safer than any 5 star rated sedan. A better source for picking a car for safety would be IIHS
If you would like to discuss the Middle East and why I feel that certain individuals should be tried for treason in a time of war, I would invite you to :fintail, "Politics" #839, 26 Dec 2007 4:40 pm
We have a very civilized thread going with very diverse opinions be expressed.
Click on this Url Thingamajig right here
This car might be the future of us. (Though in 2008, only about a hundred will be made, but later, more will be built). You could lease one next year for 600 dollars monthly.
Well where are we going to get the hydrogen?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Snake weasel i think you need some meds. Al gore is not a hippocrate and he does not need to be hung.
You are barking at the wrong guy. I am the one suggesting that A Gore should be tried for treason. It has nothing to do with his hypocrisy concerning conservation or GW. It has to do with making anti-American speeches in countries that are home to our enemies during a time of war.
I am not sure that $6 gas would have much impact on the way people drive. The usage of SUVs to drop the kids off at school may be the best alternative. If dad drives the more efficient car the average 32 miles to work. Many of us are more interested in the comfort and safety of a large SUV than saving a couple gallons of gas for the Chinese to burn in their cars. What difference does it make if we run out of oil in 20 years or 22 years? If peak oil is imminent the GW cult has nothing to worry about. When fossil fuel is gone we move into the caves. The guy with the biggest supply of guns and ammunition will survive.
I do fine without drugs thank you.
Al gore is not a hippocrate and he does not need to be hung.
I never said he needs to be hung but the fact remains he is a hypocrite. He preaches one thing but does another. Tell me how much GHG would not be put out if he took a commercial flight and the public transportation to his next speech on GW? I can tell you more than you and I can save in a year cutting back on driving and such. He tells us how to live but does not follow the same standard for himself.
Now lets contrast Al Gore to Ed Baigley Jr (SP?) he preaches pretty much the same thing Al Gore does but there is a difference. Baigley practices what he preaches. He lives in an eco friendly house and drive eco friendly vehicles and takes public transportation when he travels. Now I may not agree with Baigley but I do very much respect him because he holds himself to the same standards he says we need to be doing.
The problem is you republicans get so mad when someone tries to change your sinful lifestyle that you never listen.
No the problem is when someone tries to force a way of living on me that they themselves refuse to live by.
P.S......
yeah that kind of shows your colors doesn't it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Add to that Willie Nelson and Woody Harrelson. They live on a compound that does not use any fossil fuel. They use 100% biodiesel in all their vehicles.
Lets drop the insults ok. Now H2O is not hydrogen, its hydrogen bounded with oxygen, To use a fuel cell car you need to break that bound which is very strong. As of now there is no energy efficient way to do that. The typical way to do that is through electricity, but IIRC you use more energy in electricity than you get in Hydrogen (someone please correct me if I am wrong). Then you have to transport it and store it. Its not so easy to do and as of yet not a solution.
its everywhere
Yeah you just have to isolate it and thats the problem.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So lead was added to the mixture at the refinery, knock problem solved.
Lead poisoning has been known to medical science since 100 BC, when Greek writings described it.
Somehow, the harmful effects of spewing lead vapor into the atmosphere eluded the GM engineers. So leaded gasoline became the standard, and untold billions of gallons were burned over the years.
That process began to be reversed in 1975, when new vehicles were mandated to burn gasoline that didn't contain lead. That year, unleaded gasoline showed up at the neighborhood gas station.
If you put leaded gas into a car that had a catalytic converter, (which all unleaded vehicles possessed), it would quickly be rendered ineffective. You would be spraying pure pollutants into the atmosphere. That was bad.
So unleaded cars came with narrowed-down filler necks. Likewise, unleaded gas nozzles were narrower than their leaded-dispensing counterparts. So, the theory was, you would never put leaded gas into your vehicle by mistake.
Wrong.
First of all, a populace that didn't like the idea of paying more for a fuel that had an ingredient LEFT OUT, and they rebelled. The most obvious solution was to rout out the restricted filler neck with a chisle or the like. Ugly, but effective. You could quickly bid adieu to your catalytic converter with a couple of fill ups of leaded gas.
Another device that was sold in numbers of thousands was a little neck-down sleeve that would fit onto the end of a leaded gas nozzle. It would allow the leaded fuel to be dispensed into an unleaded tank.
Either way, a very large number of cars that would ostensibly burn cleaner were not given the chance, because of unleaded fuel's two or three cents-per-gallon higher cost.
However, the bypassers soon noted degraded performance of mileage and power from their doctored vehicles, so within a couple more years, everyone was burning unleaded as directed.
Leaded gas finally pretty much disappeared from the US market in 1986. It was still available for a time for off-road use, but low demand caused it to vanish. A 1994 study showed that US blood-lead levels declined by 78 percent from 1978 to 1991.
Today, the familiar "Contains Lead" signs are collectors' items. So are the neck-down "emergency" fill up aids. But we, and our kids and grandkids, have one less thing to worry about as our bodies walk around with much less lead in them than before.
I think that it is pathetic, and unpatriotic, for anyone giving our money (indirectly) to the Terrorists in the Middle East by buying huge-[non-permissible content removed] trucks to carry 125 people in them.
Yes, I know that this is America and that everyone should do what they please, however I am all for raising the tax, so that each imported barrel of oil is taxed, by say, 300%. The money should be used to pay for the war. That way 19year olds coming back with aluminum limbs or in coffins may have themselves or their families taken care of.
Lets REALLY support our troops, lets raise our tax on imported oil to 300% of the current price of the barrel, or a minimum of $200 whichever is higher. And lets use the money like true patriots. To make us energy independent and to pay for the war and our veterans.
Leaded gas is interesting. GM stalled the catalytic converter for 20 years because they liked leaded gas. Seems that GM owned 1/2 of the Ethyl Corp., which sold the stuff. (link).
Follow the money.
Nope, that would require the tail (Pt. Thompson) wagging the dog (Prudhoe). Gas is stuck on the north slope because there are much cheaper sources internationally. Take Qatar, many more TCF of gas right on the ocean, ready for an LNG plant and terminal. No need for an expensive pipeline, plus expensive arctic development. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with pulling their leases, just don't expect anyone else to have any better luck until a gas line is in place.