Transmission Traumas?

dangnabbit

Ladies and Gentleman,

Praise be to God, Praise be to Yahwe, Praise be to Allah, etc...

Believe it or not, but just as I was pulling into the parking lot of the transmission specialist, the car started shifting again! Just ... Bang! Out of the Blue! I drove it around town a few times just to be sure. And sure enough, the tranny was working normally. I guess my mechanic was right, the computer needed some time to re-establish the shift points.

But geez, if it takes three whole days and 30 miles of driving for the computer to synchronize with the transmission, I have to wonder just how slow its processor is (remember the 286?).

Nevertheless, the grin plastered on my face will take a long time to remove ... or at least until the next problem which hopefully is a long ways away.

fleetwoodsimca

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here." quote: Dante, from The Inferno--
This is one strange story, and I believe you. Keep us up to date.

joe3891

I was just going by all the responces i see on the web where after a flush a short time later the tranny goes out.
The main reason for tranny service is to replace the filter and of course the fluid.
I guess i am old fashion,i just replace the fluid and filter every 30K,never had a problem.
Post if you have any problems.

dangnabbit

Will do.

rubicon52

I've decided to change the transmission fluid myself on my vehicles using synthetic ATF. I know that when an automatic transmission is drained only about half the fluid drains out, that the rest is still in the torque converter. I'm considering two methods: 1. Drain the fluid, refill, drive a week, drain and refill again. This method should result in 75% new fluid assuming that during the week of driving, the old fluid in the torque converter has the chance to completely mix with the new fluid. 2. Drain the fluid and refill, drive half the change interval (maybe 15,000 miles), drain and refill again. What I like about method 2 is that I'm not draining about a quantity of almost new fluid like I am with method 1. However, is there some drawback to method 2 that I'm not aware of. Would appreciate opinions. Thanks.

fleetwoodsimca

I really think either way is satisfactory. I get the idea you'd like to use the first change a bit, so you might as well. That's a good method to freshen power steering fluid as well, pumping out the reservoir and refilling it a few times, with miles between changes. I think a good suction pump is the key to happiness for these techniques.

bburton1

Just cause it synthetic don't mean it will work in your trannies. Make certain this stuff is compatible with your tranny - if not it could be a very expensive venture. Modern auto trannies are designed for a certain ATF-there are specific lubricity and other requirements. Just cause it's synthetic don't make it better or compatible.

rea98d

I've got a '78 Grand Marquis with a 400M engine and an FMX transmission. Now, I know this car isn't worth a wad of used bubble gum, but it's got sentamental value, so I'm gonna fix it. The problem is I had a crappy rebuild done on the transmission by a crooked shop, and right after the warranty expired, the transmission lost reverse and quit shifting out of 1st. (I suspect the shop locked out 2nd gear altogether, but I have no way to check). Anyway, I bout two supposedly good FMX transmissions, one of which looks like it's been sitting in a garage a while, but doesn't look like it's been put in a car since it was rebuilt (Which is what the guy who sold it to me told me). Anyway, it seems like a simple enough, straightforward operation to disconnect the transmission lines, cables, linkages, ect, unbolt the driveshaft, unbolt and remove the transmission, and reassembly is the reverse of disassembly. Anything other than a big jack, some jackstands, and a good set of wrenches needed? Is there something not obvious at first that I'm missing? What's the fluid capacity for an FMX? Will there be any gaskets to replace. Also, I got one torque converter and no bell housings with my two transmissions, but the TC looks like it's seen better days, so I'll be reusing the car's current TC and bell housing. How much would a new TC set me back? I'd hat to have it all work for 10,000 miles just to have to take it apart again to replace the torque converter. Any advice that any of you expert mechanics wish to impart before I blindly stumble into removing the transmission will be greatly appreciated.

opera_house_wk

You ought to get a manual if you are going to play around. ATSG manuals and parts are available at bulkpart.com and another good source is transtarindustries.com if you are near one of the wharehouses. Torque converters will cost you $70-100 just in shipping (you have to send the old one back or pay a core charge). I got a rebuilt one from Transtar for $105 out the door. Other good tech info is on atcdg.com and transtec.com, just search for tech or bull.

rea98d

Well, I wasn't planning on playing around with the internals of the transmission-I have yet to grasp exactly how everything works inside there, and until I do, I'm reluctant to open one up. I simply intend to pull one gearbox out of the car, and bolt another one into its place. Then again, if they have an "Automatic Transmission Rebuilding for Idiots" book (there's a scary thought!) I might just be tempted to keep the trans in the car after I get it running, and try my hand at ressurecting it. That would be a side project, however, right now my main concern is getting her drivable again (and having only 1 forward speed doesn't exactly count as drivable in my expert opinion;-)

opera_house_wk

To find what the last guy did wrong. I wouldn't do that without a manual. As an example, you can take apart an A4LD (this is not your transmission) and put it back together without special tools if you don't dissasenble the pump. The pages of diagnostics are valuable for anyone keeping a car. You don't want to pull a transmission because of a vacuum modulator or a speed governor! Most transmissions are so cheap and simple to repair that it is not worth it to keep some old used transmission around as a spare. Take it apart, it will rock your world. Do some searches. There are usually a couple easy to get at parts the will greatly extend the life of an old transmission. In every A4LD, the reverse servo O-ring is guaranteed to be bad and is as hard to change as a filter.

rea98d

Uh...I do think the so called "professional" screwed up, but if I led you on to think I was dismantling it, sorry. But since you mentioned it...I suspect from the way it acts, he locked out 2nd gear where it shifts from 1st to 3rd. I drove it for a little over a year that way, until it started getting worse. At first, you put it in reverse, and it sets in neutral for a moment before reverse catches. The it got where I had to give it some gas to get the reverse to engage, which it promptly did with a thump. Finally, it quit engaging reverse at all. Then a transmission expert confirmed it wasn't shifting into second (I'd suspected this, but don't know if it was doing it from the beginning or if it was a recent problem). Finally, the 1-3 shift got to be too much for the car, and it stays in 1st. At the rate it's dropping gears, I left the car in the barn for fear that it would decide it didn't want a 1st gear, and would leave me stranded somewhere with only park and neutral to choose between. Any idea what's wrong with this one, and if it's something a rookie can open up and fix? It would at least be less manhandling than trying to get an FMX into place (they are very heavy transmissions with cast-iron casings.)

isellhondas

Don't try to do it by yourself lying on your back.

This is a dirty job best left to a professional with the right tools and a hoist.

Also, if that transmission has been sitting around a long timeI would reccommend replacing the front seal while it's out. The seal is probably 5.00 and takes nothing to install since it's out of the car. If the seal in it now is dried out from sitting, it'll leak.

rea98d

I'm a little hacked off at professionals now, especially since I had one telling me he could no longer get a shift linkage for an FMX, and it would cost be several hundred dollars for him to custom make one. Most shops don't even want to touch something this old, and their opinion is (as the movie says), "Quite frankly my dear, I dont give a..."

So I'm either going to buy, borrow, beg or build a transmission jack, put the car on jackstands, and do it myself. I'll probably enlist the help of friends or something, but there is no way on earth I'm lettting some high-school dropout who really couldn't car less touch my car. I've been that route one too many times, and a lot of times I get the felling I know twice as much about this car as the guys working on it, and they get ticked off when I tell them specifically what needs to be done, and then still do it wrong. I think for most of this project, I'm going to do it myself, and that way, even if I mess up, I won't be paying 50 bucks an hour to screw up.

bburton1

Helped a neighbor replace a auto tranny in his wife's Chevy SUV/Blazer I think-well we had to replace it 3 times before we got one to work and the people doing the rebuilding supposedly were experts. Have heard all kinds of horror stories about rebuilt auto trannies-particularly from the franchise tranny guys. If it were me I would trust one out of a wreck as long as you can remove it yourself to make certain it is out of a model that is compatible with your vehicle. Amen to those things being heavy-particularly the SUV 4wd jobbies-yeeech.

Change that ATF regularly and use the recommended ATF.

alcan

First of all, installing a used transmission is a crap shoot. You already have a used transmission in the car. Before installing a replacement, remove the pan and check for debris. A tablespoon or so of sediment is normal, chunks aren't. When installing the converter, make sure there are 3 engagements. If you can get the knuckle of your middle finger between the bellhousing and converter, the hub isn't indexed into the trans pump drive gear and it'll wipe out the pump as soon as you start the engine. There must be some play between the converter and flexplate once the trans is bolted to the engine. Btw, almost 1/2 of the total trans fluid is in the converter, so if there's been a failure there'll probably be contaminants in it.

rea98d

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I already have a used transmission in the car, but...It don't work. I gotta do something to get the *$&@ car running again. Since I'm not as familiar with the inner workings of automatic transmissions as I am engines, I figured I'd just swap it out. It ain't like I can put one any worse in the car ;-). Anyway, I'll hit up Ebay et al for an FMX service manual, and if anybody here wants to give me a suggestion as to what the problem might be (other than sediment in the fluid), I'll be willing to poke around on the transmission I've got a while before I yank it. Any idea what could cause the problems described in the previous post? I'm assuming if you see "chunks" in the transmission pan, you're going to have to pull it anyway?

alcan

If it's shifting 1-3, the intermediate band isn't applying. Causes include burned band (look for a leaking servo seal), broken band anchor, valve body/case gasket leak. If the band was slipping for some time, it probably heated up the high-reverse clutch drum, damaged the clutch piston seals, and took reverse out. Is it slipping in 3rd?

P.S. My reference to pulling the pan was on the replacement trans.

fleetwoodsimca

You can do what you are yearning to do: Just get a used tranny and bolt it in. You may get burned, maybe not. Be prepared for the pain of defeat. You may be getting ready to go car shopping... (:o]

rea98d

"You may be getting ready to go car shopping... (:o]"

Naw, I've got a reliable car with a good transmission for transportation til I get this one running. This '78 was my grandma's car since new, the first car I ever rode in, and she gave it to me on my 16th birthday, so it's my first car. This is a labor of love, and one way or another, I'm going to make this thing go backwards under its own power.

I don't think it was slipping in third, but just before it quit engaging 3rd gear, it got really reluctant to shift into third, like it did with reverse. Other than a valve body/case gasket, am I correct in assuming the transmission has to be taken apart to fix the rest of that stuff?

alcan

Yep. 3rd and reverse input is from the high-reverse clutch and it sounds like yours is fried.

fleetwoodsimca

I understand your desire to keep it rolling now. Keep us informed on your progress, and I wish you all the luck needed! Get a manual before you tie into those tranny cases, it would be worth the price to make sure you don't "get lost" in there.

opera_house_wk

I've seen these sell from $12 to $30 on the internet. bulkpart.com has them for $16. I can't figure out why everyone wants to go to E-bay for transmission stuff. Try your local distributors. I have a local transtarindustries.com and parts are really cheap and no shipping charges. Ask around and you will be quite surprised. I never had one person in the transmission business give me a cross eyed look or tell me I was nuts to try and rebuild a transmission. There is an entire underground transmission repair buisness of guys that don't collect or pay taxes. The distributors are more than happy to deal with no name cash transactions.

Mr_Shiftright

The older automatics are actually pretty simple and often only require cleaning, clutches and some o-rings.

But one crucial factor not mentioned by our resident experts (probably because they just assume you know) is CLEANLINESS when you take apart an automatic. As the little bacteria fells the largest beast, so too a little dirt can foul up your tranny's valve body.

Probably for tools you'll need a very long extension for your 1/2" drive, and some flex sockets or u-joint adapter, a 3/8" drive for the valve body (gentle, gentle) , a transmission jack (essential), snap ring pliers (essential if you're going inside)), air pressure for cleaning (ditto) , a nice strong workbench (ditto) and a good workshop manual for getting the converter/flex plate business correct. Also a good gasket scraper.

Be sure to inspect the flex plate closely for cracks.

Second Way to Do This: Buy a good used unit and have someone do the R&R for you. There are guys who are so good at this they'll blow your mind how fast they can put one in.

opera_house_wk

Certainly the decision to rebuild yourself is based having the "facilities" and time to do do it. Many special tools can be fabricated. I once used an empty shipping tape spool to disassemble a clutch (before I made something better) and found that duct tape can be very useful when installing assemblies back into the case. If you search on the internet there is a wealth of information in manufacturers tech notes. There are people who will remove and install for $250 and people who will do basic rebuilds for as little as $250 pluss hard parts. Just want everyone to know that rebuilding can be a very enjoyable experience and is certainly within the technical expertise of most people. Patience is the only quality you need.

fleetwoodsimca

You take the patience, I'll take opatience! Sorry, I just couldn't resist. (:oÞ

alcan

Fleetwood, you're a real card. You should be dealt with. LOL

fleetwoodsimca

One thing's for sure: When you run out opatience, alcan finish the job...(:o]

landrover2

Recently, I came out to my car after it had rained the night before. After I started driving, I realized that the transmission would not shift out of first gear. Do you have any suggestions for me regarding this matter?

alcan

Any other info such as make, model, year, is the check engine light on, is the O/D light flashing?

opera_house_wk

With only that to go on, newer transmissions use the electronic speed sensor to shift out of first instead of the older mechanical governor. Maybe this is connector related. Of course this would also show up as a problem with the speedometer. Hope you don't own a Land Rover.

geevee

I have a 95 Pontiac Bonneville SSE w/o turbo and currently 80k miles...Changed fluid & filter @ 50K with just normal sediment in pan. At 77k noticed whining noise and hard shift from 1st to 2nd...Pulled pan and had about 2 tablespoons of gray metallic chunks, small particles which looked like they may be roller bearings about 3/16" long, and filter was full of debris. I installed new filter and added 7 qts Dextron/MerconIII. Hard shift & whine immediately went away. Drove for 2K miles and pulled pan and checked for debris...all was clean ...installed new filter & 7 qts Dextron/MerconIII and have driven for another 1.5k miles with no problems...I have tried on several occasions to get tranny to act up by using hard acceleration from dead stop, passing gear, hard reverse acceleration and everything seams fine. I showed a mechanic some of the debris and was told that I need a rebuild soon and don't make any long trips in the vehicle...well I hate to put out $1300 for a rebuild when the car is running as good as it did the day i bought it. Any advice on this one? Is a trade for a new Bonneville in my very near future? Thanks in advance for any information.

opera_house_wk

This would be the time. I lost my OD section and found several needle bearings in the pan along with other metal parts. I drove that for many thousands of miles without a problem before I opted for a rebuild. Another OD failure I drove for over 70K, grinding metal and changing fluid every six months for three years. Are you sure you don't have a problem? What you have lost is a thrust bearing between sections. Besides metal on metal wear, this sometimes causes interlocking sections to hold on the very edge. Eventually these edge pieces fatigue and then it will slip. Don't think you will save anything by rebuilding ahead of time. I have to rebuild a friends Jeep transmission that has a shattered bearing in the OD. We are waiting for spring.

cutehumor

I have a 92 mit mirage..4 speed automatic. at startup, if I put the car in reverse, there is a delay and then a big jerk in the tranny when it shifts to reverse. however, if I drive the car for awhile typically more than five miles. when I put in reverse, there is no hesitation..no jerking at all. This has been going on for a few years now, but I have avoided the jerking by backing into parking spots when leave my car sitting for awhile. What causes this? will the tranny have to be rebuilt?

I was concerned so I now I use Redline D4 ATF; added the biggest Tranny cooler I could find, and lubeguard

fleetwoodsimca

I predict that problem ain't goin' away. If you keep it long enough, you'll be paying a tow bill to AAMCO!

alcan

Usually caused by worn internal fluid seals. They expand and seal better as they warm up.

cutehumor

Worn internal fluid seals doesn't sound good. LOL. I've dealt with this problem for almost four years..by avoiding the jerking reverse problem..I'm just hoping it will last another three years? Is this isolated to the reverse gear only or will it affect the entire transmission in the future? As of now, the tranny drives fine upshifting and downshifting with a slight hesitation in first.

alcan

A lot of models use teflon seal rings, and all it takes is one worn to cause your problem. Chances are it won't affect any other gear ranges.

cutehumor

did the worn internal seal rings are caused from overheating?

alcan

Not necessarily. It's just the nature of the beast with teflon seal rings. Not only do they wear, they shrink when cold allowing leakage and pressure loss. Once warmed up they'll expand some, seal more effectively, and the reverse clutch will engage.

fleetwoodsimca

Okay-- So how long does this transmission have to live? Are long trips too much strain for it?

cutehumor

I'm hoping this transmission will last forever. LOL I have 108k miles on the 92 mirage as of now. But realistically, I'll be happy with 150k miles out of it. is 150k the typical lifespan of an automatic transmission? I guess I will see if the transmission cooler I added, lubeguard, and redline synthetic will do for it. btw, I'm going to have a tranny fluid analysis when I change it out to see what's going on next year. There's not a noticeable strain with long trips. I live out in the county and I drive close to 20 miles everytime I start my car. 10 out of those 20 miles are on the interstate.

q45man

Average life varies with Ford and Chyrsler near the bottom and GM and Toyota near the top others in between.
Generally getting twice the mileage warranty is good service with the minimum recommended flush schedule obviously trannies which have the total ATF changed every 30k vs just the 3 quart pan drain live longer.

Approximately 16,000,000 trannies are repaired each year roughly equal to the number of new cars sold and the average age of the car on the road currently is 7-8 years.

joe3891

dreamed up them stats?

> Generally getting twice the mileage warranty is good service with the minimum recommended flush schedule obviously trannies which have the total ATF changed every 30k vs just the 3 quart pan drain live longer.<

rubicon52

Does the new ATF eventually mix with the old ATF (which I assume remains in the torque converter)so that eventually half the ATF in the torque converter is new ATF and half the ATF in the rest of the transmission is new ATF?

opera_house_wk

Generally a pan drop and fill replaces 35-40% of the old fluid each time it is done. If performed on a regular basis 20-30K or each year, this will provide more than adequate maintenance. Introducing the cleaning agents of the new fluid a little at a time is probably better than the shock of a flush. Never do a flush that doesn't drop the pan, clean it, and replace the filter.

q45man

"dreamed up them stats?"

Obviously you don't read the three monthly magazines for transmission rebuilers.

http://www.atra-gears.com/gears/

http://www.atra.com/expo/

http://www.babcox.com/magintro.htm

q45man

http://www.parttrackers.com/library/1/56/58/

"Considering that over 13 million automatic transmissions fail every year in this country, and that $2,000 isn't unusual for some trans overhauls,........"

"everybody including the Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association agrees that 90% of failures are due to overheating. The oxidation rate (which determines the useful lubrication life) of ATF doubles for every 20 deg. F. temperature increase over the "normal" operating level, which means fluid that's formulated to last 100,000 miles at 175 deg. will only go 50 grand at 195, or a mere 3,000 at 275. ".....

q45man

13,000,000 [million] failures at $2,000 average is a lot of vested interest to keep trannies failing. The best way is to discouraged fluid exchanges and poo poo the idea that a filter need changing or a pan cleaned!

The are over 720 AMMCO franchise locations with 6-10 employees to be fed! and each one can only do 500-1000 per year who changes the other 8,000,000?
Tranny are not a large part of our business but we change at least 25 Lexus and Infiniti AT units per year something like $75,000 per year worth or about 4-5% of our gross.

The gross margin rev minus cost is close to 40% takes more flushes than an human could do [in a year] to equal this amount $75,000/$130= 576 flushes in a year well I guees if 1420 cars need flushing we could do a new one every 3 hours...that would be 142 [55 gallon] drums of ATF

joe3891

are just a marketing gimmic to bleed more money out of the poor car owner.
Have been doing pan drop and filter changes for 35 yrs and never had a failure,so i will never have a flush.
Even Allison recommends pan drop and filter change.