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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Do you not see the hypocrisy in saying that you won't buy other brands because of reliability concerns yet you totally ignore all the empirical data that says Toyota is having the same quality issues now?

    No. I won't delve into my reasoning. As I previously said, as a consumer I'm free to spend my dollars and have my biases and hyprocroses. Even though we are having a conversation about it, I'm more comfortable with Toyota as a manufacturer than the others. /ot
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    To be fair, a recall by a manufacturer does not translate into a crappy product. It means the manufacturer found a flaw and wants to rectify it before it tarnishes their reputation, causes injury or death if it is safety related.

    When you see staggering numbers, in the millions, in terms of the number of vehicles recalled, and how frequently it happens, it does bring into question the process of quality control and research and development processes. I think that is the case with Toyota. That does not mean they built a crappy product, though.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,062
    Recalls, by definition, are safety related. It usually means that customers found a safety flaw and reported it to the NHTSA who worked with the mfr on a recall. Otherwise problems are handled via TSBs as the customer reports the problem or sometimes the mfr will issue a service program to fix the cars proactively even though there is no actual recall.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,699
    blog.lexus.com/2008/01/irvs-sheet-se-1.html#more

    Please see this for an explanation of why the recalls were so high in 2005 and how much they have fallen since then.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Let's get back to the actual midsize cars here. If you want to talk about the manufacturers in general, you need to take it to the right discussions. You will find them on the Automotive News & Views board which I linked in a post just a few prior to this one.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    I think Honda finally did it. They finally made the Accord look better than its Acura cousin. The new RL breaks new ground in ugliness IMO and makes the new Accord look like the beauty queen of the HMC.

    I know it's a bit OT, but I had to let that out. I think I now have a newfound respect for the Accord.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,062
    Did I read correctly that Accord sales were down 8% in January? Anybody know the number of days supply of 08 Accords? That would tell if it was a supply shortage or just a sales decrease.

    I don't see the RL doing any better with this one than the old one. The MKS has basically the same torque (within 6 lb/ft), same or more features and should be several thousand dollars cheaper. And it looks better.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    Did I read correctly that Accord sales were down 8% in January?

    It's actually about -7%. January Honda sales.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    It doesn't matter. The whole industry was pretty much down in January compared to the same period last January. It was a terrible month for most.

    The more I read about the RL, the more I think the Genesis will make a good impression when it hits the showroom.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,062
    Fusion and Milan retail sales were slightly up (fleet sales were down so overall they were down around 10%). Camry sales were basically flat thanks to the hybrid. The 2008 Accord is a brand new model (according to Honda). I would have expected it to be flat or slightly up even if the market was slightly down.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Mazda had their best January in 14 years. They posted a 10.2% growth over last January. The Mazda6 its self was up 27%. How much was fleet and how much was retail, I could not find.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,943
    The 2008 Accord is also one of the priciest options in this class now, w/o the incentives available on cars like Camry, Fulan, Mazda6, Sonata, Optima etc. In a down economy, many buyers will be extra sensitive to price.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    In a down economy, many buyers will be extra sensitive to price.

    In the past that didn't seem to matter. People bought Hondas no matter what the price because of their reputation. Maybe that reputation doesn't hold as much water anymore with the increases in quality scores for the other mfrs. Maybe not. Definitely something to think about though. :shades:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    My guess is those who want to buy a Honda may be waiting. 2008 is going to be a phenomonal year for them.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Why would it be pheromonal? The only new product on the horizon is the 2009 Pilot, and we all know how the reaction has been to that so far.

    So far, 2008 has been a dismal for Honda. Yes, I know, it's only January. However, in my neck of the woods, two local Honda dealers have over 150 Accords in stock. I don't think that is short supply. Also, in my area (Fairfield County, CT), people don't really have liquid cash. It's all invested. They have huge mortgages, fancy cars, and no money. To make things worse, what they have invested is tanking. It's safe to say in my area, no one is going to do so well as of right now.

    I had a gentleman come in and try to buy a Mazda3 for his son, and since the stock took a nose dive, he could not use any of it for the car. He needed to use it for income. He needed it for income because the $175K he makes was already spent on living expenses. Sad, huh?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    So far, 2008 has been a dismal for Honda. Yes, I know, it's only January
    I don't think that is short supply. Also, in my area (Fairfield County, CT), people don't really have liquid cash. It's all invested.
    1. it's just a little ol' prediction that 2008 will be good for Honda.

    2. People in Fairfield are in BMW and MB terriority. Accords are bought for the hired help. It's like citing an example of car ownership in the one block in Beverly Hills with $50M homes and extrapolating that to the world.

    3. I would rather live rich than die rich.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    I just read the car and driver march mid size sedan comparison and i just laughed because of dumb criterias like "got to have it" factors the sonata was placed 4th. It scored the highest along with the accord on factors that really matter in a midsize car such as driving manners, value, interior, trunk space etc totals at 81 points, in the powertrain department only 2 pts off the accord and altima at 41 compared to 43 and had alot of 7's in the handling department compared to the accord and altimas 8's. But if you take out the dumb criterias such as gotto have it factors the sonata actually tied for third with the the malibu with just altima and accord just merely ahead

    Car and driver imo is too biased on performance critereas which these cars shouldn't pretend they are; sports sedans. Especially 4 bangers like these

    Simple truth is that if meaninful critereas of what a family car should embody such as quiet ride, decent performance, safety, space, trunk space, back space, value are placed higher than pure performances critereas without the ridiculous got to have it factor also the sonata would have won or been top two.

    I've seen the new altima front crumble under a weak crash test(who wants to drive this unsafe car??), driven the new accord and feel the ride is a little stiff and interior way too crazy, driven the new Malibu and overall a surpisingly decent car~ but i really don't know about gms quality yet. This would be my ranking

    Sonata first
    Accord second
    Malibu Third
    Camry Fourth
    Altima fifth
    Fusion 6th
    Avenger 7th

    with the v'6 comparisons coming and sonata ready for it with its sport supension version it will be interesting to see where car and driver will place it then
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    My guess is those who want to buy a Honda may be waiting. 2008 is going to be a phenomonal year for them.

    Exactly why are they waiting? The 2008 Accord is out and there are plenty of them on the lots from what I see around here. Are they waiting for incentives? That wouldn't be phenomenal for Honda.
  • karsickkarsick Posts: 312
    2008 Accord simply looks stodgy outside (even though interior is quite good).

    It's ironic that the Civic is the exact opposite (fresh, clean & innovative outside, plain old weird inside (the Star Trek steering wheel needs to be tossed out. Why not borrow the TSX's classic black 3-spoke wheel & reflection-free black dashtop???)

    The Accord's boring, overstyled looks are simply going to discourage sales. Revert back to the 98-02 model for design ideas (or even the 90-93!)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,943
    Bingo--incentives. Buyers aren't stupid. They know the pattern: hold the price on the new design for a few months, but then bring back the incentives.

    As to the earlier comment from someone else, about the past.... this is the first recession we've had in which there was a viable, high-quality, low-priced alternative--actually several--to the Accord. That may be one reason why Accord sales are dipping. Much tougher competition out there than a few years ago.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,735
    Car and driver imo is too biased on performance critereas which these cars shouldn't pretend they are; sports sedans. Especially 4 bangers like these

    Because Car & Driver's criterea is different from yours, it's wrong? :confuse: What does engine size have to do with handling? A car doesn't have to have a lot of power, to be considered "sporty". The Sonata seems to be the right car for you, but not everyone's criteria is the same as yours.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,943
    The "gotta have it" factor in the C/D comparos is a pet peeve of mine too. Am I going to buy a car because C/D's editors awarded it a few extra points for "gotta have it"? Uh, no. I think the fact that the tweaked-for-2009 Sonata (not a redesign, just a tweak) tied the all-new Accord in the Vehicle category and was 2 points off on Powertrain (and only then because Accord got 2 more points for a quicker 0-60, with its 190 hp engine vs. the 175 hp I4 in the Sonata) is significant. The Sonata also lost a few points to the Accord on handling (they said the Sonata needed to be 10% quicker in its reflexes), on "gotta have it", and "fun to drive".

    I think Hyundai goofed on this one. They should know by now what kind of behavior the editors of C/D are looking for--e.g. crisp handling--and should have supplied them with the SE I4, with its sport suspension and steering, and maybe even the B&M shifter. It would have cost a lot less than the Limited also. Who knows, maybe the sharper handling and extra value points for a lower price would have been enough for the Sonata to tie or even beat the Accord--on everything but "gotta have it" anyway. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I think the fact that the tweaked-for-2009 Sonata (not a redesign, just a tweak) tied the all-new Accord in the Vehicle category and was 2 points off on Powertrain (and only then because Accord got 2 more points for a quicker 0-60, with its 190 hp engine vs. the 175 hp I4 in the Sonata) is significant.

    backy, I'm not nit-picking here (or maybe I am, but I'm not intending to pick at you), but it would seem to me that there's more a power train than horsepower numbers and acceleration times. The sound the engine makes, the willingness to rev, and the around-town "torque" should be included in scoring a powertrain, right?

    I'm not "telling" but instead "asking" since I haven't driven the updated Sonata. I don't know how it sounds or feels relative to the 2008 Accord.
  • LOL, too biased towards performance? It's car and driver! What do you expect? Every car mag (including insideline/edmunds) is biased towards performance... their audience is car enthusiasts, and enthusiasts are interested in performance.

    There is a mag that is not biased towards performance... it's called Consumer Reports. I suggest looking there for 'unbiased' reviews.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,943
    Did you read the C/D comparo yet? The Sonata's score in the Powertrain category tied the Accord's except for the 0-60 time. The Accord was quicker, I think something like 8.2 vs 8.8 but don't quote me on that. That is what I was referring to. I agree that there's more to a powertrain than 0-60 times. But that was the difference between the Accord and Sonata in the C/D comparo, for "Powertrain".
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    No, I haven't read the article, that's why I was sort of "asking" about things instead of simply "stating them."

    Half a second in 0-60 times doesn't seem like 2 points-worth, but then again I don't know how the rest of the point system worked.

    As far as "gotta-have-it" goes it sounds like they're trying to put a point value on the cachet factor to me.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,735
    So C&D liked the Accord more than the Sonata. Is that a surprise? Maybe the reasons they liked the Accord better could not be expressed in numbers. The way a car connects with drivers, can't be expressed in numbers. Because they work for a magazine, they can't have opinions? Consumer Reports is the least opinionated magazine, but you probably don't like their results either. :confuse: You don't have to agree with what the magazines say, but they are entitled to their opinion, just like you are.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,943
    No, it's not a surprise to me that C/D liked the Accord better than the Sonata. They made the Accord one of their 10Best for 2008, so it's no surprise it came out on top in the comparo. Interesting though that the Altima came in 2nd, ahead of another 10Best car, the Malibu. :surprise:

    Why do you make it sound like I don't think C/D should be entitled to its opinion? C'mon, get real here. What I did was point out that the numerical scores for the Accord and Sonata were very close, except for a couple of purely subjective factors like "gotta have it". Like you said, you can't express everything about a car in numbers. They had a lot of verbal praise for the Accord. But also for the Sonata, if you read the comparo.
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    There is a mag that is not biased towards performance... it's called Consumer Reports

    Oh yes, CR - the import shopper's guide.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,735
    Backy, I get the impression you think Car & Driver picked the Accord, simply because it was the Accord, and for no other reason. If so, why would you read the comparison at all?
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 12,201
    ACtually, CR is every INFORMED shopper's guide, for all vehicles.
    '15 Audi S4 quattro AWD Prestige, '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD 2.0T, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion AWD 2.0T
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    In your humble opinion, of course. :P

    Here's the place for that ongoing debate that really doesn't belong here: Comments: Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings.
  • There is a mag that is not biased towards performance... it's called Consumer Reports

    I concur, but if your sole emphases is on utilitarian concerns, I don't understand why you need CR.

    Oh yes, CR - the import shopper's guide.

    Given the number of Ford and GM vehicles on the recommended lists, I don't know if that is true anymore.

    When it was true, eh Ford and GM kind of got there on their own.

    The Fusion seems to be an actual competitive vehicle in the midesize vehicle segment.
  • I have a feeling that there are no bad cars any more. Just good ones and excellent ones.Of course there are those "lemons". :lemon:
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,943
    Your impression is incorrect. That's not what I said at all.

    I get the impression that you are being overly sensitive about someone pointing out how close a Korean car has gotten to the Accord in the opinion of the editors of C/D.
  • Right, close, keyword 'close'. My brother has a friend that owns both an 05 Accord and a Sonata(I believe it's 06 or 07) in her family and said that while the Sonata is a relatively comfortable and pretty reliable car, it's still no Accord. It just overall feels less 'refined' than the Accord. Now, I don't know what she is based her opinion on but I assume she has some valid points since she can access to both cars on a regular basis.

    To Hyandai's credit though, I think, based on the reviews I've read and heard, they have made major improvement and as much as I hate to say this, it won't surprise me if their Sonata surpasses the Accord within the next 1~2 model generations. They certainly have surpassed the Accord in the features, price, and warranty department. ;) Personally, I actually like the new Sonata's front end styling better than the 08 Accord ( the Accord's rear looks better than Sonata's though). :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,943
    I guess the question to ask your brother is, more refined in which ways? Ride? Handling? Interior? Something else?

    Given the improvements Hyundai has made to the '09 Sonata, addressing nearly every shortcoming in the '06-'08 models, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sonata overtake the Accord as early as the next genreation of the Sonata, in 2011(?).
  • The ALL NEW Accord was numerically in front due partially to two subjective category scores...the "gotta have it" and "fun to drive" . Both of these are intangibles with no real measurable winner other than the "feelings" of the several drivers assigned to the test. If one uses the measurable scores the Sonata would have been much closer numerically to #1. It would have tied for #3 and within 7 points of the Accord. Accord: 172 points. Altima: 169 points. Malibu and Sonata: 165 points. Keep in mind this the mildly refreshed Sonata up against the (trumpets please!!) ALL NEW completely redesigned Accord. Not too bad and closing the gap.

    .
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    the "gotta have it" and "fun to drive"

    To use an analogy, this kind of qualititative interperation is exactly what separates BMW from the rest of the pack. If you discard items that can't be quantitatively measured such as precise feel, interior design, exterior design all cars boil down to their numbers and nobody buys that way. So while numerical information regarding the vehicle is important, qualitative impressions play just as large a role in vehicle selection.
  • I guess if you think the Accord leads "the pack" due to these intangible feelings then what you say might have merit. While some here will state that they buy their cars largely or even partially due to these "feelings" most people do not. An Accord to "Joe average" driving the 4/10ths way "Joe average" does especially with the kiddies in the car will feel much like a Malibu or a Sonata or a Camry or any other mainstream family sedan. These "feelings" don't mean squat to the majority of family car buyers. I don't believe there is a family sedan sold that would call to the attention of "Joe average" that it truly "feels" a whole lot better or a whole lot worse than any other. Maybe these subjective feelings mean more the potential BMW or Mercedes driver but not so much to "ole Joe" I think.
  • Rereading your post I responded mostly with regard to the "fun to drive" category in [email protected] Since you used BMW as an example I figured that was the one you were trying to defend. The "gotta have it" is a goofy category that in my opinion has no place in a family sedan test. Gotta have a Camry/Accord/Sonata/Malibu/Jetta etc. more than any other family car in existance? Give me a break! I would probably prefer one or two over the others but "GOTTA HAVE IT!!"?? Maybe in a Corvette...Viper comparison I'd get that emotional.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,062
    "GOTTA HAVE IT!!"?? Maybe in a Corvette...Viper comparison I'd get that emotional.

    Make that GOTTA HAVE IT vs. CAN'T GET IT. Rumor is Chrysler is cutting half it's vehicles starting with the Viper.

    And to keep it on topic - not sure if that includes the Avenger/Sebring or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    While "gotta have it" is a silly rating category, I think you are mistaken if you think cars are not bought based on subjective criteria. It may be different criteria from what C&D think are important, but I really think for most people choosing one car over another comes down to many subjective judgements.

    What objective criteria do people typically look at? Price, size, mpg...maybe certain performance numbers. (Expected reliability is kind of a hybrid, partly objective and partly subjective, IMO). Most other stuff I can think of is subjective: styling, materials, ride, handling, seat comfort, convenience.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    While some here will state that they buy their cars largely or even partially due to these "feelings" most people do not

    I'll challenge that remark as you really don't know what criteria "all" people use to buy cars. You might know the criteria of a few of your friends.

    These "feelings" don't mean squat to the majority of family car buyers

    You can validate this statement how?

    Maybe these subjective feelings mean more the potential BMW or Mercedes driver but not so much to "ole Joe" I think.

    OK, you did add I think to the end.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    You hit the nail on the head. Anyone who doesn't think a whole bunch of subjectdive criteria is not used in car buying is severly misinformed.
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    And to keep it on topic - not sure if that includes the Avenger/Sebring or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

    I heard last month that the Viper might be getting a temporary axe (GM brought back the Camaro) to free up some money to enhance the Sebring.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,735
    The ALL NEW Accord was numerically in front due partially to two subjective category scores...the "gotta have it" and "fun to drive" . Both of these are intangibles with no real measurable winner other than the "feelings" of the several drivers assigned to the test. If one uses the measurable scores the Sonata would have been much closer numerically to #1.

    When you buy a car, do you go by a numerical scoring system? If you do, the Sonata may be the perfect car for you. Going by the number of Accords sold each year, many people use their "feelings" and "intagibles" to decide. If you are only going by the numbers, there would be no need for a test drive. You could just get the numbers from comparison tests, apply them to your own system, and go out and buy that car.
  • Well, I guess it's just a bit of everything, handling(the obvious one), engine & transmission refinement, quality interior materials used, gauge display etc. Note my brother does not own either car and little info was given to him, and I never drove the Sonata, so I can't say much here.

    By the way, I thought the 2009 Sonata is the 'redesigned' model, and the 08 Accord beat them again? Or is it just the mid cycle 'refresh'? If so the Sonata could catch up earlier than I think they might if they indeed address all the shortcomings of the current model. :)
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    Just to add my 2 cents worth on this issue....

    Seems to me that, if the majority of folks buy a car primarily based upon the technical and quantitative scores a car gets, then the car getting the highest score each year would also be the best selling...assuming prices are relatively even between models.

    Looks like a simple theory to prove or disprove. My guess is that sales don't follow technical scoring data in a 1 to 1 correlation....I think you will find that people also include other factors in their decision making process, such as previous brand experience, dealer treatment and reputation, etc...
  • I'm not sure what point you are making here...

    Of course, most car buyers in the family sedan segment are not looking at factors such as fun to drive, gotta have it, etc. This is borne out by the sales figures.

    But, does that mean C&D should not judge family sedans by these criteria? Clearly, a proportion of buyers do buy cars (even family sedans) based on more "subjective" criteria. In fact, Edmunds created a whole new section of their website to cater these buyers (Insideline). These types of buyers are the main subscription base of a magazine like C&D. How, then, can you fault C&D for using these measures? Indeed, they'd be foolish not to use "subjective" measures; they would lose their reason for existence.

    When reading a car review, it's important to know who the reviewer is and for what audience he is writing. And, as is often said on these forums, drive the cars for yourself and decide what fits you best.

    Sure, the performance enthusiasts' favorite cars will often have the bragging rights, but, hey, don't let that bother you.
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