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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    Here is a quote from an article on

    "When the swoopy new 2011 Sonata goes into production at Hyundai's plant in Alabama early next year, it won't offer a V6 engine anymore, but it will get the company's first ever direct-injected engine. This week in South Korea, Hyundai took the wraps off its 2.4-liter Theta II GDI four-cylinder. Like similar engines from other automakers, Hyundai's engineers have taken advantage of the charge cooling effect of direct injection by boosting the compression ratio to 11.3:1. As a result the engine produces 198 hp and 184 pound-feet of torque at 4,250 rpm in Korean spec."

    Take it for what it's worth. Backy said it wouldn't happen but this looks a little more definitive. I have a hard time believing they would give up the V6 as well as all the other midsize cars have a V6. Maybe they are trying to steer the power hungry to their more expensive offerings or, heaven forbid, are actually trying to start a trend instead of following them!
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    I suspect that one of two things will happen: (a) they'll end up steering V6 customers into a next-generation Azera, which may well be just a stretched version of the 2011 Sonata, or (b) they'll roll out a V6 for the 2012 Sonata, probably in January of 2011.

    I would have no trouble with the power of the 2011 Sonata--it's very close to the output figures for my 2002 Accord V6. But the midsize sedan market in the US is full of people who, despite all evidence to the contrary, are convinced that a four-cylinder midsize car must by definition be underpowered. Many of those folks haven't driven one since about 1992, but they're still convinced.
  • fushigifushigi Chicago suburbsPosts: 1,381
    It's not necessarily about power. The added power of a V6 is nice but for me it's the NVH. Make, model, and engine size doesn't matter; every single 4 cyl I've ever driven or ridden in - Asian, domestic, martian, old or recent - has had NVH levels I personally find unacceptable. Be it buzzing at higher revs or roughness at idle, I simply don't like them. And as I can afford to avoid that problem by buying a V6-equipped machine, I will do so. Apparently not from Hyundai, though (nor from Mitsubishi BTW as they've dropped the V6 option from the '10 Galant).
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    I believe it's something like noise, vibration and harshness or something like that. Here's some more info on the new engine.

    With the output of 201 horsepower at6300rpm and 25.5 kg.m at 4250rpm, the all-new 2.4L Theta II engine is far ahead of the rest of the class, surpassing all American and Japanese competitors.

    This would put it ahead in I4 hp in the midsize class including the 200hp Passat.

    It would really be interesting to see this engine in a new redesigned Elantra or even the current Forte. They would be hot little buggies.
  • A couple things to keep in mind regarding this move,,,

    1. Hyundai has stated that they want to lead the industry in fuel economy by the middle of the next decade. (around 2014-15 if memory serves)

    2. Federal mileage regs are going to start going up in a few years and Hyundai wants to be ahead of the curve.

    Also, there are rumors that the US Sonata may get a turbo version of the new I4 that should be good for 250 or so ponies. Good for power and economy too. ;)
  • fushigifushigi Chicago suburbsPosts: 1,381
    "I believe it's something like noise, vibration and harshness..."

    Correct. How load the engine is, how buzzy it can get, how the sound reverberates in the cabin, the feeling of vibrations from the engine intruding into the passenger space, if the engine sounds like it's thrashing, etc.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,174
    Doing a comparison between a 09 and 10 Altima on the Edmunds "comparator" I noticed that the '10 Altima v6 is now "regular unleaded" and mpg has gone up 1 in both cty/hwy.

    Does anyone know if that is a typo? The hp/torque is still rated the same.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    Six weeks ago I was skeptical that Hyundai would pull the plug on the V6 in the Sonata in the power-mad USA, but after seeing other automakers go the same route (e.g. BMW and the new 5 Series), it makes more and more sense. With the new FE regs, I wonder how long it will be before we see other automakers follow suit? e.g. will we see a V6 on the 2013 Accord?
  • berriberri Posts: 7,725
    I just read that Motor Trend named the Ford Fusion as its Car Of The Year.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    Wow, must be a slim year!

    And I mean no offense to the Fusion on that. I think it's an excellent car. But c'mon, it's a refresh, with the hybrid option added. But if you look at the other 2010 models, I guess there isn't anything that stands out. The new Golf has little new under the skin (and even the skin is familiar), the new Prius is not MT's cup of tea and isn't that much better than the old one, the new Legacy is a nice car, but pales in "significance" (big criterion for MT COTY) to the Fusion in the marketplace, and so on.

    Some years there's lots of great new cars, other years... meh.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,852
    when was the last time you drove a 4cyl?
    i had an '04 focus 2.3 with a stick and it was very smooth.
    very rarely could any kind of shaking be detected.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,852
    the fusion lineup also has the 'sport' version now, so it is now appealing to a wider audience. it is similar to the camry lineup except that you can also get awd in a couple of different flavors.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,679
    Yes, the Toyota Camry won the Motor Trend Car of the Year in 2007, and even though i own two Camrys, I still said "so what, big deal" back then about the Camry winning it. I say the same thing this year...
  • fushigifushigi Chicago suburbsPosts: 1,381
    A month ago on vacation in Hawaii. We had an Optima for a few days until it got a CEL so we swapped it for a Fusion.

    I'm not saying that modern 4-bangers are bad; they're perfectly adequate. But my personal standards for NVH are high. I guess I've been spoiled. Anyway, why should I settle for adequate when I can afford better?
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    I agree with you completely, the majority of 4cyl cars are more than adequate for the majority of people and you get decent fuel economy but they are much louder and sound it compare to a V6 and after having V6s for years you do kind of get spoiled when it comes to how much quieter and quicker they are from a full stop and r willing to sacrifice a couple mpg to get it, they just seem a little bit more refined then a 4cyl but I have to say that I have a few rental and loaner 4 cyl cars over the years and they have gotten a bit quieter and more refined as the years have gone on
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    I owned a Camry Hybrid, and it pales in comparison to the Fusion. There is so much more in the fusion, as better quality, firmer ride, better handling, QUIETER interior, (yes the Hybrid was noisy), better seats, I no longer feel a seat spring on my butt, and it is much better looking from the front, that bulbous nose on the Camry is ugly. The Camry is over rated, and its only saving grace are the people buying them are too anti domestic oriented to even bother to test drive one thinking the Toyota and Honda are still better cars when in reality the Fusion is just as good as the Honda, and better than the Toyota. Other than one cosmetic problem with a door panel which was quickly fixed, I have had no issues in 4800 miles, whereas the Camry had a sticking sunroof, wind noise on the drivers door, and a rattle in the dash, from day one, none of which could be repaired. Material quality in the Camry was also low, the seat fabric is thin, showed wear in only 10 months of use, the seat springs could be felt through the padding, and other parts of the interior I felt could have been of higher quality. The Fusion is fun to drive, the Camry was meh, its a car.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    Where is the noise on the 4 cylinder engines vs. 6s? Isn't it mainly on hard acceleration? All of my 4-bangers are and have been very quiet at cruise and moderate acceleration. If I put the pedal to the floor, they can get raucous. But so can a V6, albeit a little less so. I put the pedal to the floor on a car maybe once a month or so. And with the 4 cylinder engines making 175 to over 200 hp in this class now, with 5 or even 6 speed transmissions, power and acceleration really aren't an issue, IMO.

    Anyway, I don't mind a little growl when I floor it. Reminds me I am driving a car. :)
  • V-6's are inherently slightly smoother by nature of the opposing cylinders cancelling any vibrations etc while in line 4's generally either use a counter-rotating balance shaft or are naturally more inclined to be less smooth. That said however, modern 4's from Honda, Nissan, Toyota, and yes Hyundai and Ford too are damn quiet, and smooth. I personally do not feel or hear (except for the prior generation Fusion/Milan 4's which had a horrible induction noise on acceleration) anything that would prevent or preclude my buying one. As to performance, well, when 4's from Honda...Toyota...and Hyundai can accelerate to speed (0-60) in the mid to low 7 second range and 1/4 mile times and speeds at around the 16+ second @ 86-90 mph range they are plenty fast and quick. We need to wean ourselves from the notion that only a V-6 will do. A modern 4 is both faster and quicker than a Corvette from only a few decades ago.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,679
    Funny, the rattle in the dash has been reported in the early 6 generation Camrys, but everyone said that the TSB done by your dealer fixes it? My '07 non-hybrid has been great, no issues, and in my opinion and just about all the reviews I have ever read, is very quiet.

    I like to buy domestic - that's why I did not buy a Mexican-built, and only 50% NA parts car. The Camry, Accord, and Malibu are much more USA than the Fulan.

    I will not go and try to bash another car, because we all have our opinions, and that's okay. I had a Fusion rental a year ago, and let's just say it is a great car, but the Camry still is my choice.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    "I don't mind a little growl when I floor it."

    Same here and I floor my 4 cyl fairly often, probably a few times per week on average and I also generally tend to accelerate much faster than most other drivers, when I can (4000-5000 rpm on a regular basis does not frighten me). Mine is a comparitively weak 150 HP or so in a prior generation Mazda6, but even with that I have rarely felt like I wanted more power (the rare case would typically be when 4 or 5 adults are in the car).

    There is some vibration when stopped, that I'd rather not have...but it is not enough to make me willing to go to a V6. For me the vibration would not be an issue at all had I chosen to get a manual, as when I put it in neutral while stopped, it is smooth enough for me. Designing the automatic to shift to neutral when stopped would take care of it too.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    you must have not had many V6s because when ever I've had a rental or loaner car with a 4cyl in my garage it is noticeably louder at startup and idle, plus at acceleration from a stop

    if you read what I said carefully though, I've noticed over the years that the car manufactures have been improving this; for instance, I had a 2009 Altima 4cyl as a loaner car and could not believe how silent and quiet it was at idle and in brisk acceleration from a stop; the 4cyl in the Altima was even quieter than the I4 in an 2009 Acura TSX

    about a year ago I had a Honda Accord 4cyl and felt it sounded extremely noisy at start-up/idle and in brisk acceleration

    now that is not to say that every 6 cyl engine is quieter and more refined than every 4 cyl; for instance, I have a 2010 Maxima with the 290hp V6 and it is noticeable loud at start-up and idle and during brisk acceleration because of how much hp and torque there is under the hood, plus the CVT doesn't help in regards to quietness during acceleration; I would consider the altima I4 to be quieter and the maxima V6; the V6 engines in the infiniti lines are also noticeable noisy because they have over 300 hp

    on the other hand, my 2008 TL V6 is very quiet/refined at start-up and idle compared to my Maxima; I also test drove a 2010 Camry V6 and that engine was similarily quiet and refined as my TL's engine; most V6 engines in the 230-270hp range are pretty quiet and refined compared to V6s with 290hp+

    The point I was trying to make is that on avg most 6 cyl engines are quieter/more refined then 4 cyl engines at start-up and idle
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Of course if they were smart, they would use the "classic" configuration again - a small I6 engine(talking 2.5L or less) and RWD. Good MPG, nearly vibration free, and a ton of other benefits as well.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    if you read what I said carefully though...

    No, obviously I didn't, probably because I am a total idiot with an IQ of 12. :P

    I can tell you that I have re-started (as in, while they were running) my four-cylinder cars a few times over the years, because they were so quiet and vibration free I couldn't tell they were running. Maybe besides my reading problem I have a hearing problem, too, but I haven't found I4s to be noticeably noisier at start-up and idle than the V6s I've owned and driven over 35 years.

    BTW... your handle is very appropriate.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    well then you must have had some unusual V6 vehicles in your garage over the years because that is not the case most of the time and as if the 35 years is suppose to make you seem correct, give me a break

    I swear I think people like you are on here only to argue; you act like I was trying to put down 4 cyl engines and I wasn't, I was just commenting on what someone else was stating in the great 4 vs 6 cyl debate; each has their pros and cons, I prefer 6 cyl engines but if I really like a car and it only came with a 4 cyl I would still get it

    The most quiet engines I have ever had over the years are 6 cyl; you say 4 cyl, but you don't have to come on here questioning my experience because you think you've seen different; I gave concrete examples of my reasoning; if you think you are correct give your examples
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,852
    funny you mention that. one of my kids gave a half hearted try at driving a stick.
    i think part of the problem was that it was so smooth, they couldn't learn to shift by ear like i did when i learned on a vw bug.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,852
    if you can afford better, why settle for a V6? a lot of the NVH work is external to the engine.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    you act like I was trying to put down 4 cyl engines and I wasn't

    Not at all. I was stating my opinion on the relative noise from 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines, as you were. We clearly have differing opinions on this subject. But I can do without the personal putdowns, i.e. that I have some kind of reading comprehension problem. Was that because I happen to have a different opinion than you do? Am I "arguing" because I don't happen to agree with your opinion? Do you expect everyone on these forums to agree with everything you say?

    I am not questioning your experience. I was relating my own experience wrt this subject, which appears to be different from yours. You yourself said different engines act differently re noise. Maybe it's just that I've owned different vehicles than you have, or that what you consider "noisy startup and idle" is different than what I think.

    And if you had read my post carefully enough ;) , you would see that I did provide examples (remember re-starting the cars?). Do you want makes and models, too? Not sure I can remember all of them, because they include 200+ rentals over the years, but in one embarrassing case, I left the engine running on my 1976 Corolla DLX 2-door coupe in a parking lot, at night, because it was so quiet at idle I didn't realize it was running. Never did that again, but I have re-started a few cars as I noted.

    An opinion is neither right nor wrong--it's an opinion. You can agree or disagree with an opinion. If you have a different opinion than someone else, it doesn't make you "correct" and the other person "incorrect", or vice-versa.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    The noisiest vehicle at start-up that I can recall having is my wife's Jetta with the 5 cyl engine. That makes a crazy diesel like sound for several seconds (due to hydraulic lifters, according to the manual).

    The noisiest on acceleration, in recent times at least, would have to be the 3.8L V6 in our 1997 Windstar.

    I don't understand the claims that a V6 is somehow inherently more balanced than an I4. Why would the 4 be unbalanced? You would have one cyl firing for every 1/2 rev is that really so different from one every 1/3 rev for a V6? Doesn't the shorter crankshaft of the V design also result in more potential vibration problems vs. an I design?
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