Midsize Sedans 2.0

m6user

Granddaughter is driving our 2007 Mazda6 for the last year. It now has about 135,000 miles and has had one repair. A front wheel bearing at about 110k. We have a 2016 for one year this month and absolutely no problems. Oh yeah, they replaced the gas cap during an oil change because it was sometimes hard to get off but not a big deal. Again, anecdotal but CR has recommended the 6 for some time now.

sda

benjaminh said:

I wonder what the Consumer Reports' record is on the VW Passat? With a c. 23k base msrp, it is one of the least expensive midsize sedans out there, and discounts of as much as 6k at are available at my local dealer. For instance, here's one for less than 18k:

http://www.bachmanvolkswagen.com/VehicleDetails/new-2016-Volkswagen-Passat-4dr_Sdn_1.8T_Auto_S_PZEV-Louisville-KY/2666989393

"NEW 2016 VOLKSWAGEN PASSAT 4DR SDN 1.8T AUTO S PZEV BACHMAN SUMMER SALE PRICE: $17,370"

I think the Passat has the only standard turbo engine among midsize cars. But check out this review of that turbo's reliability from an owner who wrote a review for Edmunds:

"32k miles and 1.8t rear main seal blows out!!!!

by James D. on Jul 1, 2016
Vehicle: 2016 Volkswagen Passat

I bought this car in March and do a lot of highway driving, not racing it around. Highway driving is easy: I drive conservatively and all my fluid changes have been done on time. Come to find out, I'm blowing smoke out the rear, and I blew a rear main seal on the engine and may have done some internal engine damage, too. The repair bill was nearly $3,000, but fortunately for me, it was covered under warranty. I looked up a VW tech I went to high school with who works for a large VW dealership in Dallas, and he says, and I quote, "VW's rear main seal design on their 1.8t's have been pure garbage for some time, and VW knows about this. We've seen a few Passat rear-main blowouts already. It's the same motor with the same problem the Golfs and Jettas had. This is how we make our money. Once the 36K mile warranty expires, the cost is no longer (negotiable, as always to the dealership) by VW. So the owner gets screwed." He went on to say, "Most 1.8t's are designed to hit 45K miles without serious problems, but with the 2014 to 2016 Passats, we're seeing this problem all the time. What's an owner to do? Sit around and say, 'No, I'm not going to repair this.' They end up forking over the $2600 and that's that, but in the end run, we lose another customer." He thinks VW does this by design, and to me, it's no wonder after realizing what they did with Dieselgate, with an aim to deceive. I should have gone with an Accord but was tempted by the extra inch or so of front-seat leg room the Passat offered me. BEWARE DO NOT BUY THIS CAR UNLESS YOU HAVE MONEY TO FIX IT."

http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/passat/2016/sedan/review/

Even after the diesel scandal, as well as my own nightmare experience with owning a VW 20 years ago, I can't quite believe the conspiracy theory here. But it's true VWs in general aren't known for their low cost and trouble-free ownership experiences. It may not be a conspiracy, but I don't think VW is focused on quality, reliability, and durability in the same way that Toyota, Honda, Mazda, etc. have been for several decades now.

VW has a 5/60 powertrain warranty. Perhaps a candidate for the VW extended warranty if you plan to keep beyond 60k.

roadburner

My Mazdaspeed3 had some teething pains under warranty but I loved the car. I held off trading it in hope the rumored 300 hp AWD MS3 would become a reality, but it looks like Mazda is no longer interested in the hot hatch market.

andres3

roadburner said:

My Mazdaspeed3 had some teething pains under warranty but I loved the car. I held off trading it in hope the rumored 300 hp AWD MS3 would become a reality, but it looks like Mazda is no longer interested in the hot hatch market.

Maybe they signed a non-compete clause with Ford on the hot hatch market The Focus RS beat them to market; of course, I haven't seen one in person yet.

nyccarguy

andres3 said:

roadburner said:

My Mazdaspeed3 had some teething pains under warranty but I loved the car. I held off trading it in hope the rumored 300 hp AWD MS3 would become a reality, but it looks like Mazda is no longer interested in the hot hatch market.

Maybe they signed a non-compete clause with Ford on the hot hatch market The Focus RS beat them to market; of course, I haven't seen one in person yet.

I saw a blue one last week. Quite the sleeper if you don't know what's coming.

andres3

Ford Fusion Sport with 2.7 Turbo is interesting. How much are they asking for it? Typical Big 3 style of overpricing by 20%?

benjaminh

Midsize sales for August:

Camry 32,864

Accord 30,115

Altima 19,646

Fusion 19,052

Sonata 14,888

Optima 9,470

Passat 7,389

Legacy 5,800

200 4,210

Mazda6 4,006

benjaminh

Compact/Midsize sales for August:

Civic 32,807

Corolla 30,741

Cruze 22,342

Elantra 20,733

Sentra 14,256

Focus 11,772

Jetta 11,720

Forte 8,307

Mazda3 7,297

Impreza 5,319

Dart 2,898

Lancer 1,089

benjaminh

When it comes to the best selling car in America, the Civic is beginning to get close to the Camry.

benjaminh

andres3 said:

Ford Fusion Sport with 2.7 Turbo is interesting. How much are they asking for it? Typical Big 3 style of overpricing by 20%?

Starts at $34k. Gets a good review from Car and Driver:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-ford-fusion-sport-first-drive-review

0-60 in 5.3 seconds

"Dropping in a 2.7-liter twin-turbo V-6 borrowed from the F-150 and the Edge Sport between the Fusion’s front fenders vaults this sedan to 325 horsepower and a husky 380 lb-ft of torque, making it the first modern mid-size family sedan to snap the 300-hp leash. That’s an excellent start—but the Fusion development team kept their heads down to deliver a well-rounded package to support the newfound horsepower. The six-speed automatic is a heavier-duty unit controlled by paddles attached to the leather-wrapped steering wheel. Behind that, there’s computer-controlled all-wheel drive consisting of the usual front-drive transaxle plus a longitudinal driveshaft and a rear differential engaged on demand by a clutch. The crowning touch is what Ford calls continuously controlled damping. Borrowed from the Lincoln camp, these computer-controlled dampers give the Fusion the legs it needs to run competitively in the sport league."

benjaminh

It seems to have been a very bad month for midsize sales. The Camry was down 12% compared to the same month last year, the Accord was down 26%, the Altima was down a whopping 39%, the Fusion was down 32%, and the Sonata was down 32% as well.

I think Nissan has the capacity to build as many as 37,000 Altimas a month at its huge factory in TN, but sales last month were running at only a little bit more than half that—in spite of high incentives. As Altima sales have fallen the production of the Rogue at the TN factory has soared.

Ford used to build the Fusion at Flat Rock, but production has ended there and now Mexico makes all of Ford's midsize cars.

The Camry is still the number one selling car in the US, but Toyota has the capacity to make up to 40k or so a month, and so selling just a little less than 33,000 is well below that.

Honda can probably make at least 400,000 Accords a year in Ohio, but right now annual sales are looking to be 50,000 short of that.

The midsize segment is shrinking.

Some of those sales are going to the newly grown compact cars, like the Civic, which is now according to the EPA a midsize car. Sales for the Civic are up 15% this year, and it has become Honda's best selling car for the first time since about 1981.

Sales of midsize SUVs have also been strong. After the the big three pickups—F-series, Silverado, and Ram—the next three bestselling vehicles in America are the CR-V, RAV4, and Rogue.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2016/09/usa-30-best-selling-autos-august-2016.html

fushigi

According to this article, the auto industry as a whole is at a plateau as pent up demand from prior years has finally been satisfied. http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-bc-us--auto-sales-20160901-story.html

jpp75

benjaminh said:

Midsize sales for August:

Camry 32,864

Accord 30,115

Altima 19,646

Fusion 19,052

Sonata 14,888

Optima 9,470

Passat 7,389

Legacy 5,800

200 4,210

Mazda6 4,006

What about the Malibu? Curious as to how it fared with the others?

sda

What area(s) of the country is Mazda's best market? The Mazda 6 is such a nice car I am surprised that they sell so few. In the Charlotte area Mazda seems to sell reasonably well. Two dealerships completely remodeled their stores and Mazdas are not rare sight. I've had 4 Mazdas in the past and really liked them.

suydam

In many sections of the country there are few Mazda dealerships, so you see a lot less of them.

benjaminh

What about the Malibu? Curious as to how it fared with the others?

Missed the Malibu. Here it is:

Chevrolet Malibu 16,723

which is down about 5% from the same month last year.

thebean

I find it incredible that the Chrysler 200 outsold the Mazda6.  Who's buying the 200?  Is it all fleet sales?

berri

Plus there are probably way more Chrysler dealers and incentives

benjaminh

On my latest highway drive in my 2016 Accord I got 40 mpg for the first time. It was a 75 mile trip with some city driving at the beginning and end. On the highway we were going about 65-70 mph with the AC on. This is higher mpg than I would have gotten in a Civic of just ten years ago—although today's turbo Civic can apparently get as much as 50 on the highway if driven gently. I haven't yet checked out this mpg calculator in relation to actual fill ups, but the mpg calculators on my 2008 Accord and my wife's 2013 Accord are accurate to within less than half of one mpg—and sometimes they were right on. As you see, my lifetime mpg in the car is 33, but that's more than 60% highway miles. I've already put 3000 miles on it after just 6 weeks of owning it.

sda

benjaminh said:

On my latest highway drive in my 2016 Accord I got 40 mpg for the first time. It was a 75 mile trip with some city driving at the beginning and end. On the highway we were going about 65-70 mph with the AC on. This is higher mpg than I would have gotten in a Civic of just ten years ago—although today's turbo Civic can apparently get as much as 50 on the highway if driven gently. I haven't yet checked out this mpg calculator in relation to actual fill ups, but the mpg calculators on my 2008 Accord and my wife's 2013 Accord are accurate to within less than half of one mpg—and sometimes they were right on. As you see, my lifetime mpg in the car is 33, but that's about 60% highway miles. I've already put 3000 miles on it after just 6 weeks of owning it.

Excellent! I found the gas mileage improved after 5-6000 miles. I believe your Accord will do even better than mine, though no complaints from me. My gas mileage is consistently 30 mpg+, and I averaged just under 38 mpg on a rather hard 1100 mile trip. And yes, it does get better mileage than an older Civic. Our '09 Civic EX automatic got around 27-28 mpg and 34-35mpg on the road. Not only that but the Accord is significantly quicker than the '09 Civic (automatic). What a wonderful surprise!

andres3

For you Kia fans out there, I'm here to verify your tastes as the new '16 Kia Optima LX Turbo 1.6 with 7-speed auto double clutch is the real deal. Now if only they'd come down to $20K.

jpp75

benjaminh said:

What about the Malibu? Curious as to how it fared with the others?

Missed the Malibu. Here it is:

Chevrolet Malibu 16,723

which is down about 5% from the same month last year.

Thanks @benjaminh. I'm curious to see how this new model fares overall, seems like a good car but probably too little too late for this segment.

berri

I think GM's CEO said it is now more about profit margin than sales volume. I guess we'll see down the road.

benjaminh

Automotive News compares midsize cars to "bell bottoms." Ouch!

"The family car is in free fall
Segment plunges 27% in August
September 5, 2016 @ 12:01 am
Nick Bunkley

The family sedan is dying, and the usual cure-all prescription -- cash on the hood -- isn't working.

In one of the U.S. auto industry's best years ever, with sales through August 0.5 percent ahead of last year's record pace, demand for midsize cars is at a five-year low.

The segment is fading faster with each passing month. Midsize car sales fell 3.4 percent in the first quarter, 13 percent in the second quarter and 21 percent so far in the third, compared with last year....

"It doesn't matter how deep you discount the leisure suit and bell-bottoms -- nobody's going to buy them if they're not fashionable," said Eric Lyman, vice president of industry insights at TrueCar. "I don't think they're ever going to go away, but there's a lot more people who don't consider them anymore."

Last December, Bob Carter, Toyota's head of U.S. operations, predicted that the Camry, America's No. 1 car for 14 consecutive years, would be outsold by the company's own RAV4 within five years. The fizzling of the midsize car segment could make that happen much sooner.

In August, the Camry trailed the RAV4 for the first time, according to the Automotive News Data Center. The Camry fell short of the Honda CR-V and Nissan Rogue as well...."

More at the link:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160905/RETAIL01/309059951/the-family-car-is-in-free-fall

benjaminh

Toyota is already offering 0% for 72 months on the 2017 Camry, plus an extra $500 on the hood along with other incentives. They're giving em away!

suydam

They're dying because they are no longer midsize cars! They've all gotten way too big.
Notice this from the same article:
"Meanwhile, sales of compact and smaller cars fell just 3.6 percent last month, in line with the industry's overall decline of 3.5 percent, showing that the market's shift away from sedans isn't across the board. Some high-volume small cars, including the Chevrolet Cruze and Honda Civic, posted gains in August."

andres3

benjaminh said:

Toyota is already offering 0% for 72 months on the 2017 Camry, plus an extra $500 on the hood along with other incentives. They're giving em away!

LOL @ giving them away. That sounds like a true salesman. Given them away would be something like leasing them out for a cellphone payment; they are not there yet.

benjaminh

andres3 said:

benjaminh said:

Toyota is already offering 0% for 72 months on the 2017 Camry, plus an extra $500 on the hood along with other incentives. They're giving em away!

LOL @ giving them away. That sounds like a true salesman. Given them away would be something like leasing them out for a cellphone payment; they are not there yet.

You can lease a Camry for $189 a month, and buy one for probably $250 a month. As you say, it's a lot more than a phone bill, but at those prices I wonder if Toyota is making any profit? They are probably selling them at cost. Same goes for the others in the midsize segment, I suppose....

benjaminh

suydam said:

They're dying because they are no longer midsize cars! They've all gotten way too big.
Notice this from the same article:
"Meanwhile, sales of compact and smaller cars fell just 3.6 percent last month, in line with the industry's overall decline of 3.5 percent, showing that the market's shift away from sedans isn't across the board. Some high-volume small cars, including the Chevrolet Cruze and Honda Civic, posted gains in August."

As we've mentioned here, the 2016 Civic is now almost exactly the size of an Accord from 20 years ago.

And meanwhile, by 2008 the Accord had grown to be almost as large as my 1988 Oldsmobile 98. The latest generation Accord is about 3 inches smaller that the previous one, but there's some speculation that the all-new Accord for 2018 might get larger again. After all, now that the Civic is so roomy some might wonder why they step up to an Accord.

For good or ill, that's my guess. The next Accord will move into the EPA "full size" category—and it will have Olds 98-like legroom and headroom. The Hyundai Sonata is, I think, already there.

brian125

Toyota Camry's

If your selling 30k to 40k units monthly your making money.

benjaminh

andres3 said:

benjaminh said:

Toyota is already offering 0% for 72 months on the 2017 Camry, plus an extra $500 on the hood along with other incentives. They're giving em away!

LOL @ giving them away. That sounds like a true salesman. Given them away would be something like leasing them out for a cellphone payment; they are not there yet.

andres3: I see from the other thread that you have a brand-new Optima with the 1.6 turbo. Congratulations! Hope you'll show up some pix! I really like the looks of the new Optima, which is even sleeker than the last generation. Seems like you have some nice tech too. I assume AndroidAuto is included?

stickguy

preach on about them bloating up. I consider the main mid sizers (including my Sonata) to be large cars, and certainly full size by my grading. The 90's vintage Accord/626 were a nice size. and Yup, the Civic, Jetta, Elantra and others are all now about that size. I hope to drop down a notch to something that size next time if possible. So if going premium, a C class, 3 series, or S60 sized unit.

really, the key thing I would miss, is the much bigger gas tank!

jpp75

berri said:

I think GM's CEO said it is now more about profit margin than sales volume. I guess we'll see down the road.

I've read that from her before, and I completely agree with her approach. There's no point in being a sales leader if you're losing money. I was just curious if the new design had helped sales any, I guess in theory if they are making profits on the cars they would want to sell more of them to increase profit. However as they've learned in the past, throwing cash on the hood just to increase sales is not a good business strategy.

andres3

I am not very tech or smartphone savvy, but I do have an Iphone. I believe you need the "tech package" upgrade in order to get full smartphone car-play connectivity. I went the cheaper route. It does have USB and aux inputs, and two 12V power outlets up front in the center console.

I posted 5 pictures in the Chronic Car Buyer's Thread.

ab348

benjaminh said:

Toyota is already offering 0% for 72 months on the 2017 Camry, plus an extra $500 on the hood along with other incentives. They're giving em away!

As a 1980s big-iron computer sales guy friend of mine used to like to say, "It's only pennies a day!!!"

benjaminh

I just looked it up, and the Optima is a Large car according to the EPA's standard. You have to have a combined luggage and passenger room of 120 cubit feet to be considered Large, and the Optima LX has 120.7.

andres3

Makes you wonder what the point of the Candenza is? At higher price points I"m thinking other options open up.

brian125

andres

Good point..... Cadenza Cu ft is 122.7 compared to Optima @120.7 pretty close in leg / headroom etc. . Cadenza's Higher price tag gives you more tech and upgrades.

suydam

Maybe we should reconsider what midsize cars are for this thread!

berri

Midsizers may be getting bigger, but they still aren't the size of an Impala.

brian125

Impala is considered a large sedan. Closer in size to the Genesis. Gm's 4 banger is awful in this vehicle. Visibility is bad. Impressive reviews outside of above.

brian125

If I was to replace my Genesis I would look at The Avalon, Genesis , Impala, Cadenza. Did I miss one in this size vehicle without going over 50k

m6user

300, Taurus and Charger.

brian125

300 , Taurus , Charger,

I would consider the 707 h/p Hellcat out of that group. Not the ghetto cruiser , or unmarked Cop car.

ab348

New Buick Lacrosse would also be in that large-car class I believe.

m6user

No, Lacrosse is midsize according to EPA. So is the Avalon. But if you want a large car, get a Forte5 because the EPA classifies that a large car. Oh yeah, a Chevy Sonic is midsize too. And a Scion iM is midsize too and I believe that is based on the Mazda2. MB E550 8cyl coupe is a subcompact. All of which proves to me that using the EPA to determine a car class is stupid. Interior volume is only one criteria. Overall footprint is important as well and maybe more important to many, many people.

I go with footprint and how the car is marketed. If Honda calls it a midsize, it's a midsize to me. I can get dimensions and cargo space if I have a particular need. Mostly it's just common sense. I don't need the government to tell me what size a car is.

iluvmysephia1

IIRC the Scion iM sits on the Mazda 3 chassis, feel free ta check me on that.

stickguy

Im is a Mazda 2.

brian125

m6user

Interesting reviews on the Chrysler 300. Resale and reliability are probably still poor to average. I remember sitting in one 2 years ago . Didn't like how low you felt inside.

Small sedans have gotten bigger inside due to popularity and gas prices .There's No way I consider a Civic , Corolla, Sentra , Elantra, etc a midsizer.

My eye caught a 2016 lime green Challenger today. Very sharp looking. I Like the looks of the Challenger much better than the Charger, But if were talking speed, luxury, and comfort the Audi S6 is my girl.

roadburner

The iM has the Mazda2 platform.