Midsize Sedans 2.0

sda

Just got back from a quick trip to Pittsburgh. On the drive up I saw 4 separate accidents, 2 of which caused significant delays to my progress. Also multiple road improvement projects that also impeded my travel. On the trip home, no accidents, but heavy rain for 3 hours of travel. I am happy to report that I made it home safe and sound. I did manage 37.5 mpg from the Accord for the entire trip.

benjaminh

This seems to be where a lot of the former midsize sedan buyers are going:

CR-V 35,017 +13.3%

Rogue 33,298 +32.8%

Rav4 31,871 +19.3%

nyccarguy

Sales Numbers don't tell the whole story. How many cars were in inventory? How long does it take to turn the inventory over? What kind of incentives are currently available compared to this time last year?

It's like baseball. You can have a .300 hitter that was batting .335 10 days ago and a .300 hitter that was batting .260 10 days ago.

berri

I think sedan sales are down because in general people prefer the higher seating position and utility in a crossover. Relatively low fuel prices are encouraging that. Gasoline may stay cheap for awhile, but eventually most markets seek homeostasis and the accumulation of all those thirstier vehicles will change the supply demand equilibrium. Maybe hybrids or diesels will increase changing the formula, but I think price differentials will have come down quite a bit for that to happen.

Now small crossovers don't have as much difference in mileage from a sedan as mid or larger crossovers, but personally, my experience has been that sometimes the smaller crossovers meet their estimated mileage, but throw in hills, winds, slippery roads and they seem to not do much better than the next step up, yet with generally less comfort, more noise, and less room. Crossovers have a higher profile and physics means the resulting increased drag will usually consume more fuel than comparable sized sedans. Their 4 bangers can get stressed in these situations.

suydam

My little Encore is not top heavy and is quite comfortable and maneuverable. Most crossovers aren't the old fashioned tricky SUV. They are a real alternative ad they are taking sales from sedans. 

berri

I think Buick upscaled that model so it is more refined. It's not that crossovers are top heavy per se, but that their elevated and taller fronts have more drag than a sedan's profile, particularly at higher speeds. I'll probably move up from our CRV to a Highlander or some such next time. It will be interesting to see what impact gas prices have on small crossovers if it goes up a buck or so down the road. They said the move from truck bodied SUV's to car based crossovers would mute the impact of gas prices years back, But they all tanked. Might be different this time. But an Encore or CRV really isn't big enough for most families once their kids get older. Maybe minivans will end up making a comeback whenever gas prices jump up?

benjaminh

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/08/ttac-midsize-sedan-deathwatch-getting/

"TTAC Midsize Sedan Deathwatch? One Only Needs to Examine the Minivan Segment for Guidance
By Timothy Cain on August 1, 2016

....You’ve already heard that small crossovers are eating into the midsize car segment’s share of the market. Even as the overall auto market rebounded out of the recession, U.S. sales of intermediate sedans grew just 2 percent in 2013 as auto industry sales jumped 8 percent. One year later, midsize car volume grew just 1 percent as the industry jumped 6 percent. In 2015, a record year for the U.S. auto industry, midsize car volume slid 2 percent. Through the first-half of 2016, midsize car sales are down 7 percent; June was the fourth consecutive month of decline and the eighth month of decline in the last year.....

We now know that production of the Chrysler 200, a former platform-mate of the aforementioned Avenger, will cease by year’s end. The 200 claimed 7.5 percent of the midsize category just last year. (Allegedly.)

If the decline of the minivan sector — itself related to the rise of the three-row utility vehicle — is anything to go by, then the decline of the midsize car sector, tied to the rise of the two-row family crossover, will soon pick up speed and cause others to flee.

Numerous automakers are poised for departure, in part because the six top-selling midsize cars have increased their share of the midsize car market from 75 percent in the first-half of 2015 to 82 percent this year, leaving scraps for lower-tier nameplates.

The Mazda6? Sales of the Mazda we love to drive but wouldn’t want to live with are down 27 percent in 2016’s first six months. Mazda is on track to sell fewer than 40,000 Mazda6s in 2016, down from 71,447 at its peak in 2005....

The Buick Regal? Treading water between entry-level premium players and core midsize sedans, sales of the Regal are half as strong now as they were when the nameplate launched, pre-Verano, in 2011. Moreover, Buick has already shown a willingness to kill more popular passenger cars in favour of a market that’s turning toward utility vehicles.

Volkswagen Passat? Much as our own Jack Baruth thinks a hot Passat would do Volkswagen a favor, the current model has lost 40 percent of its U.S. volume since 2012. "

nyccarguy

Again - numbers don't tell the whole story. Of course Passat sales numbers are down. Look at how much volume they lost since they aren't selling the TDI Passat anymore.

brian125

I'm in Cape may NJ for the weekend. All I see are rows and rows of Minivans, SUV's Big and small. Midsize vehicles are definitely the minority here with family's . I agree Mazda, Buick, and a few others will be out of the midsize game soon if there numbers keep declining.

benjaminh

Whatever the future holds for the midsize car market, right now great deals can be found. The base models of all of these cars are now well-equipped. But as my new 2016 Accord EX shows, the mid-level models of some midsizers also offer a lot.

The 2017 LX Accord lists for $23,155
The 2017 EX Accord lists for $26,350

This difference of c. $3200 is big, but when you look at what you get for that it begins to seem like a good deal. Sometimes I play a silly time-wasting game of pricing what all the extra features of a trim level would be worth to me personally. This is obviously subjective, but here goes on what the features that the EX adds to the LX are worth to me:

AndroidAuto/CarPlay: $1000
(That might seem high, but built-in navi used to cost almost twice that.)
Moonroof: $800
Smartentry/pushbutton start: $600
17" alloys with V-rated tires: $600
(Goodyear Assurance compared to 16" H-rated "offbrand" tires for the LX)
Power driver's seat with power lumbar support: $500
Remote Engine start: $400
HondaLink & HomeLink: $400
Lanewatch: $300
Heated side mirrors w/turn signals: $300
Upgraded tricot seat fabric + "woodgrain" trim (plood): $300
LED daytime running lights & fog lights: $300
Suspension/body: front shock bar, center tunnel brace, rear shock stiffeners: $300
6-speaker stereo, HD FM, SXM: $200
Illuminated power window switches & lockable glovebox: $100
60/40 split folding rear seat: $100

Anyway, all those features together seem to be "worth" about $6000 to me, making the upgrade from LX to EX well-worth it imho.

That's especially true when at the end of the model year the EX can sometimes be had in the real world for less than the "list price" of the LX by following brian125's email negotiation strategy.

sda

benjaminh said:

Whatever the future holds for the midsize car market, right now great deals can be found. The base models of all of these cars are now well-equipped. But as my new 2016 Accord EX shows, the mid-level models of some midsizers also offer a lot.

The 2017 LX Accord lists for $23,155
The 2017 EX Accord lists for $26,350

This difference of c. $3200 is big, but when you look at what you get for that it begins to seem like a good deal. Sometimes I play a silly time-wasting game of pricing what all the extra features of a trim level would be worth to me personally. This is obviously subjective, but here goes on what the features that the EX adds to the LX are worth to me:

AndroidAuto/CarPlay: $1000
(That might seem high, but built-in navi used to cost almost twice that.)
Moonroof: $800
Smartentry/pushbutton start: $600
17" alloys with V-rated tires: $600
(Goodyear Assurance compared to 16" H-rated "offbrand" tires for the LX)
Power driver's seat: $500
Remote Engine start: $400
HondaLink & HomeLink: $400
Lanewatch: $300
Heated side mirrors w/turn signals: $300
Upgraded tricot seat fabric + "woodgrain" trim (plood): $300
LED daytime running lights & fog lights: $300
Suspension/body: front shock bar, center tunnel brace, rear shock stiffeners: $300
6-speaker stereo, HD FM, SXM: $200
Illuminated power window switches & lockable glovebox: $100
60/40 split folding rear seat: $100

Anyway, those features all together seem to be "worth" about $6000 to me, making the upgrade from LX to EX well-worth it imho.

That's especially true when at the end of the model year the EX can be had in the real world for less than the "list price" of the LX by following brian125's email negotiation strategy.

I did a similar comparison and analysis when I selected the EX. I wanted the EXL, but the EX had most of what I wanted, such as sunroof, pushbutton start, etc. The difference between the EX and EXL was around $2500 if I remember correctly and I didn't want to spend that much. My wife thought I was getting the EXL, so when I brought it home she was surprised and said, 'what, you didn't get leather??' I explained the $$, and she agreed with my decision. whew

brian125

Happy wife is a happy life.

andres3

sda said:

benjaminh said:

Whatever the future holds for the midsize car market, right now great deals can be found. The base models of all of these cars are now well-equipped. But as my new 2016 Accord EX shows, the mid-level models of some midsizers also offer a lot.

The 2017 LX Accord lists for $23,155
The 2017 EX Accord lists for $26,350

This difference of c. $3200 is big, but when you look at what you get for that it begins to seem like a good deal. Sometimes I play a silly time-wasting game of pricing what all the extra features of a trim level would be worth to me personally. This is obviously subjective, but here goes on what the features that the EX adds to the LX are worth to me:

AndroidAuto/CarPlay: $1000
(That might seem high, but built-in navi used to cost almost twice that.)
Moonroof: $800
Smartentry/pushbutton start: $600
17" alloys with V-rated tires: $600
(Goodyear Assurance compared to 16" H-rated "offbrand" tires for the LX)
Power driver's seat: $500
Remote Engine start: $400
HondaLink & HomeLink: $400
Lanewatch: $300
Heated side mirrors w/turn signals: $300
Upgraded tricot seat fabric + "woodgrain" trim (plood): $300
LED daytime running lights & fog lights: $300
Suspension/body: front shock bar, center tunnel brace, rear shock stiffeners: $300
6-speaker stereo, HD FM, SXM: $200
Illuminated power window switches & lockable glovebox: $100
60/40 split folding rear seat: $100

Anyway, those features all together seem to be "worth" about $6000 to me, making the upgrade from LX to EX well-worth it imho.

That's especially true when at the end of the model year the EX can be had in the real world for less than the "list price" of the LX by following brian125's email negotiation strategy.

I did a similar comparison and analysis when I selected the EX. I wanted the EXL, but the EX had most of what I wanted, such as sunroof, pushbutton start, etc. The difference between the EX and EXL was around $2500 if I remember correctly and I didn't want to spend that much. My wife thought I was getting the EXL, so when I brought it home she was surprised and said, 'what, you didn't get leather??' I explained the $$, and she agreed with my decision. whew

$2,500 does seem high for a leather upgrade. In the old S4 the Nappa leather upgrade was $1,250, and I really like the Nappa leather, but that still seemed high to me. Not so high that I didn't opt in though.

The non Nappa leather is lesser, and used more sparingly with alcantara seating surfaces filling in many areas of the base car.

I happen to like a really great cloth seat. The '06 A3 had great cloth seats available in stripper models. My objections to cloth were that it made getting a sport equipped model impossible, came with a plastic ugly steering wheel, and no shift paddles. Minor things, but things I really appreciated in the sport equipped models was the sport suspension and beautiful leather wrapped 3-spoke steering wheel. The paddles; I could live without those if I had to. Oh, another thing the sport models improved was aluminum rings lining around the air vents rather than black plastic. Well worth it in my opinion; so leather it was.

brian125

Buyers in CA are getting close to 3k below invoice on Accords. MD, VA area are 2500 to 3k below.

I had a 2013 EXL V-6, which now my daughter and husband have and love.. Only reason I gave it up after 10 months was to small inside for me. This generation Accord is so much better than previous years.

brian125

andres3

Can I fit in your TT. I'm 6'2 . What's FT legroom about 40'? I seen a few really sharp TT this past week. You must be loving yours ? Any think you don't like about this vehicle yet??

andres3

brian125 said:

andres3

Can I fit in your TT. I'm 6'2 . What's FT legroom about 40'? I seen a few really sharp TT this past week. You must be loving yours ? Any think you don't like about this vehicle yet??

Absolutely; I'm 6'3" tall and I fit fine. No one is ever going to sit behind me unless they are legless though. The head room is fantastic in part thanks to no option for a moon-roof. This is a 3rd generation TTS that only just came out with the '16 models though. I'd imagine everything is probably within a 1/2" with the old model though. I have the old Audi TT windshield sunshade and it fits within 1/2" of where the cutouts would be for the yet to be designed new sunshade. The car is low and takes energy to get in and out of; not for old men with bad backs.

I love the vehicle and it is world-class in so many ways. Only problem in the first 6,000 miles has been the lane side assist blind spot monitor sensors, which had a TSB and were replaced (in what I imagine was rather labor intensive).

As all of you who know me here probably already know, I'm skeptical of any value with driver assistance features. My forward collision warning comes standard with a see-through windshield and my own eyes. I will say I like the back up cam with projected angle/trajectory lines. I think now that the side-assist blind spot monitors work, I still think the AI has a way to go to be fully trustworthy and useful. I find it too conservative and it keeps the distracting light on or blinking when I have plenty of space to move in front of someone and change lanes in front of them. I'd like to see it go off a second sooner with less buffer space.

The navigation and voice recognition could be better. Probably just better to use Apple's latest IOS and map (or Google?) system. I'm used to Garmin portable units in the past which are superior. I like how in recent years the I-phone is traffic-smart in routing you through high traffic effectively and efficiently, and changing that route in relatively real-time due to slow downs on certain roads. I was told there is a voice-learning program in the car, to make it work better, just need an Audi - Genius like @roadburner is with BMW to help me, or I need to read the manual. Can't find the oil level gauge on-screen either! But I have an Oil Temp gauge which I like.

I still think that 255/35R19 is the way to go for this car, but the 255/30R20's that came with it look great.

My long-term fuel economy is only 22.7 MPG, but I like to have a heavy foot and drive at speeds that I'm lucky I don't get ticketed for speeding more frequently (knock on wood). It's an improvement over what I got in the S4 with my driving style, so I'm enjoying it.

The new TTS' specialty is definitely the balanced handling with high levels of grip/traction and the ultimate Audi-fied quattro-ified Haldex rear-biased (in dynamic mode) AWD system.. With a Stage 1 tune it'll be a straight-line beast too. It is very quick, but not quite push you back into your seat hard & fast stock. Keep in mind I'm coming off a stage 1 tuned S4 too.

Lastly, push-button start and the TFT/HD monitor gauge screen are things you miss once you get used to them.

benjaminh

andres3 wrote: "My forward collision warning comes standard with a see-through windshield and my own eyes."

+1

Agree.

akirby

benjaminh said:

andres3 wrote: "My forward collision warning comes standard with a see-through windshield and my own eyes."

+1

Agree.

I said the same thing until I was creeping along in traffic at 20 mph stop and go when I zoned out/dozed off for a split second and the collision warning woke me up and stopped me from hitting the car in front of me.

No matter how good and diligent you are there will come a time when you miss something.

brian125

My next trip to Audi I'm going to test drive one for fun.. Good review @Andres3

@akirby..............So true I need to stop playing with my command center on my BMW. I almost rear ended a car last week rolling to a light

andres3

akirby said:

benjaminh said:

andres3 wrote: "My forward collision warning comes standard with a see-through windshield and my own eyes."

+1

Agree.

I said the same thing until I was creeping along in traffic at 20 mph stop and go when I zoned out/dozed off for a split second and the collision warning woke me up and stopped me from hitting the car in front of me.

No matter how good and diligent you are there will come a time when you miss something.

Yes, true, we are human after all.

However, how many times do you have to hear an annoying chime or see a distracting red light before it actually "saves" you?

akirby

Mine only goes off unnecessarily once a week or so when a car in front is turning and I don't slow down. It's not a problem. Of it's going off constantly you're driving way too close to the car in front of you.

benjaminh

andres3 said:

akirby said:

benjaminh said:

andres3 wrote: "My forward collision warning comes standard with a see-through windshield and my own eyes."

+1

Agree.

I said the same thing until I was creeping along in traffic at 20 mph stop and go when I zoned out/dozed off for a split second and the collision warning woke me up and stopped me from hitting the car in front of me.

No matter how good and diligent you are there will come a time when you miss something.

Yes, true, we are human after all.

However, how many times do you have to hear an annoying chime or see a distracting red light before it actually "saves" you?

And I think it's possible that some people almost rely on these systems to "save" them, which might possibly make some people complacent? Not sure, just asking....

PS Forgot one more thing that's added to the EX Accord that the LX doesn't have—rear AC vents. Worth to me at least $300 to keep those people comfortable back there...

benjaminh

Here's an interesting little fact....

It takes more gas money to drive a little 2-door mini Cooper 15,000 miles than it takes to drive a 4-door Accord or Altima 15k miles.

For 2016 the 2-door Mini with the 1.5 turbo is rated 31 mpg combined. The Accord and Altima are also rated 31 mpg combined.

But the Mini requires premium gas, and so has total fill-up costs of c. $1300 a year.

That's $250 more a year than the fill up costs for the Accord or Altima, which of course take regular gas, and can be gassed for a year for c. $1050.

It's puzzling to me that these cars are all rated 31. Why does such a small car, recently redesigned with an advanced BMW engine, not get higher mpg than a midsize car?

Michaell

Because the mini is not engineered for economy, but for fun. 

Sandman6472

I drove 3 new Optima's yesterday, a couple white over black and one white over beige, and I think they really are the best midsize vehicle out there, besides the Sonata which drives about the same. Seating is very comfortable for 5, dash layout is almost perfect with great ergonomics, decent stereo system, great get up and go and never feels sluggish. I'd buy one tomorrow if we needed such a big vehicle to be honest as I think it's that good. Hertz has a lot of them in their fleet and many go to auction at around the 10K figure. They do maintain these vehicles because I am one of the folks that drives them to the maintenance area so if buying one from a used car lot, folks should feel secure in that they were taken care of properly by Hertz.
I think if we weren't in our German phase right now that we'd both be driving Kia/Hyundai products. We both like the Forte and Rio and the wife was about to purchase a Forte last time until I told her to check out the A3 just to see how it drove...little did I know that a couple of weeks later, she'd purchase the A3! She wanted a small vehicle and the local Audi dealer is right at the side of our housing development so it's close. Never ever did I think that she'd decide to purchase one as the price was more than we've ever spent on any vehicle and my limit is really $25K, my comfort zone.

The Sandman

benjaminh

Michaell said:

Because the mini is not engineered for economy, but for fun. 

Fair enough, but the Mini weighs c. 560 pounds less than the Accord, and only gets to 60 a third of a second faster (CD says 7.3 seconds for the Mini vs 7.6 for the Accord). But yes, the Mini is much more of a go kart around turns....

Michaell

benjaminh said:

Michaell said:

Because the mini is not engineered for economy, but for fun. 

Fair enough, but the Mini weighs c. 560 pounds less than the Accord, and only gets to 60 a third of a second faster (CD says 7.3 seconds for the Mini vs 7.6 for the Accord). But yes, the Mini is much more of a go kart around turns....

And if they softened it up, it would be a Yaris or a Fit.

berri

I rode in a Mini several years ago and thought its suspension rode like a delivery truck. At speed kind of resembled a motorboat on choppy seas. My back!

benjaminh

Clubman is the midsize MINI. It's based on the BMW X1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8cDQmu7QEg

Overall, MINI sales are down about 15% this year. Total market share for mini is 0.3%. My guess is that when BMW purchased MINI a generation ago they were hoping for a larger market share after 20 years of ownership.

Comparably equipped, the Clubman costs about $4000 more than an Accord.

benjaminh

Alex on Autos gets up to 45 mpg on the highway on a KIA Optima Eco, although I think that's without AC. The Eco Optima has a 1.6 turbo and a 7-speed dual clutch transmission. Nice car! Amazing mpg that's beyond even the 39 mpg I've sometimes been getting on my new Accord on the highway, although that's with the AC on. My guess is that without the AC the Accord might get over 40 on the highway, but the Optima still seems to be best-in-class for mpg among midsize cars at this point, along with the Sonata Eco.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1MVqIE9f3w

iluvmysephia1

Interesting comments and much praise for Kia's midsize car, Optima. As everyone knows, I love Kia's, and the Optima is the midsizer I would buy if I were to buy a larger rig. I almost bought a 2010 Suzuki Kizashi but the Henderson, NV, dealer didn't like my low offer. It was a red 6-speed stick Kizashi. I still love that bodystyle and occasionally see one out and aboot.

benjaminh

I think the Optima is a nicer looking car than the Sonata, and maybe even than the Accord. And the Optima Eco has push button start, power folding mirrors, etc. Very nice car for an msrp of c. $24k. Alex on Autos also said that the power of the turbo combined with the dual clutch transmission meant that it was slightly faster than the Accord with its naturally aspirated engine and CVT. Not surprisingly, he added that the Accord's CVT was smoother than the dual clutch transmission, which is more sporty. Rear visibility on the Optima remains mediocre, as it is for most midsize cars except for the Accord and the Camry.

stickguy

I still draw the line at dealing with the Kia dealers around here. They still have not caught up to the quality of the product. Hyundai dealers are fine.

iluvmysephia1

I still draw the line at dealing with the Kia dealers around here. They still have not caught up to the quality of the product. Hyundai dealers are fine.

Kia Corporate needs to work on that problem, then. Shouldn't be happening - Kia just came in No.1 on the JD Power quality chart. I like Hyundai, too, wanted a 2003 Tiburon 5-speed bad in 2002 when they first came out. Both brands are great.

akirby

iluvmysephia1 said:

Kia Corporate needs to work on that problem, then. Shouldn't be happening - Kia just came in No.1 on the JD Power quality chart.

There isn't much corporate can do legally thanks to state franchise laws. It's a bigger problem with Ford and GM where you have 30-50 yr old dealerships (or older). It's ridiculous that the mfrs whose name is on the sign can't do anything about a crappy dealer.

[Deleted User]

brian125 said:

From what I've been hearing the Honda Accord, should receive a complete redesign for the 2018 model year, I don’t anticipate Honda will veer far from what’s been a successful direction for this midsize sedan and coupe combo. If 2018 is in fact the redesign year this will be the 10th generation model dating back to 1979. The Accord coupes 1st year was in 1988.

I'd like to see better Tech features offered in the new 2018 Accord. Standard across the board in all models FWS, Bliss , Lane watch, Cross traffic / braking etc.

Subaru legacy has to step up its game also with better Tech and upgraded motor to stay competitive in a few years.

Ford has seemed to spring ahead in these area's but needs to offer the Tech/ safety features in the lower models. Thought I read some where that by 2020 all car models should be offering upgraded Tech and safety features in all models.

@suydam................ It's ashame you had to put your Accord down. Someone got a really good vehicle.. R.I.P

You know, most of what Honda did on their mid cycle refresh was try to make the car more "cool" and added a lot of chrome. However, they are FINALLY offering cool wheels on the V6, which upon a friendly race against yours truly; blew me into the weeds. They did a good job. Again though, they should have done more on the mid-cycle refresh than slap a bunch of fake plastic chrome on it. It now looks like a bigger Civic, but it has grown on me. Now if they offered a longer warranty I would go down and drive the V6. Also, the new Altima looks great and the Maxima is sexy. Still has CVT though. God I want a mustang.

benjaminh

cski said:

brian125 said:

From what I've been hearing the Honda Accord, should receive a complete redesign for the 2018 model year, I don’t anticipate Honda will veer far from what’s been a successful direction for this midsize sedan and coupe combo. If 2018 is in fact the redesign year this will be the 10th generation model dating back to 1979. The Accord coupes 1st year was in 1988.

I'd like to see better Tech features offered in the new 2018 Accord. Standard across the board in all models FWS, Bliss , Lane watch, Cross traffic / braking etc.

Subaru legacy has to step up its game also with better Tech and upgraded motor to stay competitive in a few years.

Ford has seemed to spring ahead in these area's but needs to offer the Tech/ safety features in the lower models. Thought I read some where that by 2020 all car models should be offering upgraded Tech and safety features in all models.

@suydam................ It's ashame you had to put your Accord down. Someone got a really good vehicle.. R.I.P

You know, most of what Honda did on their mid cycle refresh was try to make the car more "cool" and added a lot of chrome. However, they are FINALLY offering cool wheels on the V6, which upon a friendly race against yours truly; blew me into the weeds. They did a good job. Again though, they should have done more on the mid-cycle refresh than slap a bunch of fake plastic chrome on it. It now looks like a bigger Civic, but it has grown on me. Now if they offered a longer warranty I would go down and drive the V6. Also, the new Altima looks great and the Maxima is sexy. Still has CVT though. God I want a mustang.

Hey Chris—welcome back!

The styling on the 2016 Accord is a little "blingy," but as the happy owner of a brand-new 2016 Accord EX in White Orchid Pearl, I can say that they did more than add more chrome—although they certainly did that. Here are some other things of note on my 2016 EX Accord that are improvements or additions over the 2015 Accord EX:

AndroidAuto/AppleCarPlay
This is big imho, because it's much better than the previous built-in navi and yet costs a lot less—plus it has some additional features beyond Google maps/navi.

Remote start
I love this feature. This winter I'm looking forward to defrosting my car while I'm inside sipping my last cup of coffee and brushing my teeth.

HD radio and SXM radio
As the owner of an Optima this isn't a big deal to you, but previously satellite radio was only available on EXL and above. HD FM is great.

Suspension and handling improvements + retuned steering
Honda has upgraded the shocks on all Accords for 2016, and Sport and above get additional structural reinforcements/handling upgrades. They've also improved the steering a bit. I wasn't sure I could notice this, but I can around sharp corners compared to my wife's 2013 Accord. It seems more precise and you can go faster around corners without squealing the tires.

LED daytime running lights, LED fog lights and LED tail lights
New for 2016. Like em.

Improved aerodynamics and reduced rolling resistance.
Highway mpg goes up by 1 compared to 2015 (Although Accords still can't beat an Optima Eco for mpg)

New aluminum hood is half the weight of last year's steel hood.

etc.

Longer warranty? Who needs it. It's a Honda. Yes, some Hondas do breakdown or wear out, but I never once used my extended warranty on my 2002 or 2008 Accord, and I don't expect to on my wife's 2013 Accord—and so I skipped it this time, saving c. $1000.

But I'm sure your Optima is doing well. How many miles so far? The new Optima if anything is even better looking than yours imho. But what do you think? But I agree that your generation Optima has aged very well, unlike the previous Sonata.

benjaminh

The other news on the 2016 Accord is the addition of HondaSensing for $1000, which is available on all models. I didn't get this, but it includes....

Collision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) with sensor fusion technology
Lane Departure Warning (LDW)
Forward Collision Warning (FCW)
Lane Keeping Assist System (LKAS)
Road Departure Mitigation (RDM)
Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC)

http://hondanews.com/releases/2016-honda-accord-press-kit-overview

benjaminh

cski said:

.... God I want a mustang.

What's the biggest appeal to you of the Mustang? The style? The power? Both?

benjaminh

This is possibly a rendering of the next Civic Si, or maybe the type R. Not clear...

brian125

Aren't those the wheels on the 16, 2017 Accord V-6 touring model. I think those wheels would look good on my beach wagon

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=picture+of+little+tikes+wagon&view=detailv2&&id=6DEF2B43082B0BF401AC3392FC05216709514DF4&selectedIndex=0&ccid=qMf4iKzT&simid=608006583827433379&thid=OIP.Ma8c7f888acd3068f0a3e9144322218c2H0&ajaxhist=0

ab348

stickguy said:

I still draw the line at dealing with the Kia dealers around here. They still have not caught up to the quality of the product. Hyundai dealers are fine.

Up here it is the reverse. The biggest Hyundai dealer is a bunch of slimeballs, but the Kia operation is pretty decent.

sda

benjaminh said:

Alex on Autos gets up to 45 mpg on the highway on a KIA Optima Eco, although I think that's without AC. The Eco Optima has a 1.6 turbo and a 7-speed dual clutch transmission. Nice car! Amazing mpg that's beyond even the 39 mpg I've sometimes been getting on my new Accord on the highway, although that's with the AC on. My guess is that without the AC the Accord might get over 40 on the highway, but the Optima still seems to be best-in-class for mpg among midsize cars at this point, along with the Sonata Eco.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1MVqIE9f3w

I don't think you can get a sunroof with the Eco Optima. With the Accord I have found the a/c to have little impact on mpg, at least when on a steady drive. I also find the ECO mode to be of little benefit, and it blunts performance. Most cars that I've owned a/c decreases mpg 1-3 mpg.

brian125

I like Circle Hyundai In Shrewsbury NJ. Family owned they do a really nice job of making you feel right at home. I bought My Genesis there. The night I was picking up car the sales manager insisted I sit down and have dinner they bought for all there customers that night. You expect that from BMW or MB with the coin your dropping over there not Hyundai . I've also heard a lot of good things about Sansone Jr's Kia in Neptune, NJ

brian125

I would never set foot in a lot of these Kia or Hyundai dealerships unless I already worked out pricing with internet manager via emails or bought it over the phone.

andres3

akirby said:

iluvmysephia1 said:

Kia Corporate needs to work on that problem, then. Shouldn't be happening - Kia just came in No.1 on the JD Power quality chart.

There isn't much corporate can do legally thanks to state franchise laws. It's a bigger problem with Ford and GM where you have 30-50 yr old dealerships (or older). It's ridiculous that the mfrs whose name is on the sign can't do anything about a crappy dealer.

Can't they only sell them the crappy car models that aren't selling and preserve the inventory of the good high selling vehicles to their "preferred" dealers?

andres3

benjaminh said:

cski said:

brian125 said:

From what I've been hearing the Honda Accord, should receive a complete redesign for the 2018 model year, I don’t anticipate Honda will veer far from what’s been a successful direction for this midsize sedan and coupe combo. If 2018 is in fact the redesign year this will be the 10th generation model dating back to 1979. The Accord coupes 1st year was in 1988.

I'd like to see better Tech features offered in the new 2018 Accord. Standard across the board in all models FWS, Bliss , Lane watch, Cross traffic / braking etc.

Subaru legacy has to step up its game also with better Tech and upgraded motor to stay competitive in a few years.

Ford has seemed to spring ahead in these area's but needs to offer the Tech/ safety features in the lower models. Thought I read some where that by 2020 all car models should be offering upgraded Tech and safety features in all models.

@suydam................ It's ashame you had to put your Accord down. Someone got a really good vehicle.. R.I.P

You know, most of what Honda did on their mid cycle refresh was try to make the car more "cool" and added a lot of chrome. However, they are FINALLY offering cool wheels on the V6, which upon a friendly race against yours truly; blew me into the weeds. They did a good job. Again though, they should have done more on the mid-cycle refresh than slap a bunch of fake plastic chrome on it. It now looks like a bigger Civic, but it has grown on me. Now if they offered a longer warranty I would go down and drive the V6. Also, the new Altima looks great and the Maxima is sexy. Still has CVT though. God I want a mustang.

Hey Chris—welcome back!

The styling on the 2016 Accord is a little "blingy," but as the happy owner of a brand-new 2016 Accord EX in White Orchid Pearl, I can say that they did more than add more chrome—although they certainly did that. Here are some other things of note on my 2016 EX Accord that are improvements or additions over the 2015 Accord EX:

AndroidAuto/AppleCarPlay
This is big imho, because it's much better than the previous built-in navi and yet costs a lot less—plus it has some additional features beyond Google maps/navi.

Remote start
I love this feature. This winter I'm looking forward to defrosting my car while I'm inside sipping my last cup of coffee and brushing my teeth.

HD radio and SXM radio
As the owner of an Optima this isn't a big deal to you, but previously satellite radio was only available on EXL and above. HD FM is great.

Suspension and handling improvements + retuned steering
Honda has upgraded the shocks on all Accords for 2016, and Sport and above get additional structural reinforcements/handling upgrades. They've also improved the steering a bit. I wasn't sure I could notice this, but I can around sharp corners compared to my wife's 2013 Accord. It seems more precise and you can go faster around corners without squealing the tires.

LED daytime running lights, LED fog lights and LED tail lights
New for 2016. Like em.

Improved aerodynamics and reduced rolling resistance.
Highway mpg goes up by 1 compared to 2015 (Although Accords still can't beat an Optima Eco for mpg)

New aluminum hood is half the weight of last year's steel hood.

etc.

Longer warranty? Who needs it. It's a Honda. Yes, some Hondas do breakdown or wear out, but I never once used my extended warranty on my 2002 or 2008 Accord, and I don't expect to on my wife's 2013 Accord—and so I skipped it this time, saving c. $1000.

But I'm sure your Optima is doing well. How many miles so far? The new Optima if anything is even better looking than yours imho. But what do you think? But I agree that your generation Optima has aged very well, unlike the previous Sonata.

It took you 4 Hondas to finally figure out the extended warranty is a joke that nets them 99.5% profit.

akirby

andres3 said:

Can't they only sell them the crappy car models that aren't selling and preserve the inventory of the good high selling vehicles to their "preferred" dealers?

That is completely illegal. Dealers would sue (and win) in a heartbeat.

I once asked the VP of marketing for Lincoln why they didn't just require that every Lincoln dealer stock a manual Lincoln LS model for test drives and his answer was "because I didn't want to go to jail".

Ford tried to give their better dealers (in terms of customer service scores, etc.) an extra 0.25% holdback. They weren't taking any money away from the other dealers. The dealers sued and won.

It's a crappy system put in place by local dealers lobbying their lawmakers. It does protect the dealers from a mfr behaving badly but it goes too far and doesn't allow the mfrs to do anything about lousy dealers.

[Deleted User]

Dude, I lost so many photos when my Server died and my backup drive was unplugged by my 14 year old to charger her phone. I was furious. What I can tell you about how my Optima has held up for 4.4 years and is now paid off on a 5 year loan?

1) I drive the piss out of it. I have a HUD app called AAspeedometer. WARNING the free version has irritating commercials covering up important data. I can tell how fast I am going w/o looking down the long tube and removing my left hand (I am left handed) off the wheel. in other words, I hold the steering wheel in such a way that it blocks the speedometer. It should be on the left, but eve then it would be blocked by my big dumb arm. The HUD is mounted magnetically to my s5 via GPS and I can still use directions, phone, stereo, Pandora, etc. right on top of the I/P huge LED numbers. If I exceed 69,ph, I programmed it to change from red that matches my car (and its stock I/P lights) to green and then if I (stupidly) go to 80 mph it blinks orange. I have not had a ticket since.

2) My paint is flawless, but that little front panel with a rubber seal for the hood has two spots right in the middle about an inch long where its clear coat is coming off. KIA-Paint does not bond well long term outside on plastic...Neither does chrome. Since we are talking about that area, I have to drop my bumper to install a drivers side headlight module so I am installing HID headlights and Fogs. They are on their way from Korea.

3) Mount the rear CARBON LOOK "k" badge to the front. remove the damaged small K badge, fill the depression with the same 3m mega-tape that the badges use, and then apply the rear K badge. It holds up better when it is not down in a hole with rain and the other elements. Add real or quality strong fake carbon fiber license plate holder to match.. Trust me...it looks great and doesn't peel.
4) The car drives perfect. Just like brand new. It only has 52k. I have 2 coats of mothers gold on it right now, Rain X, Armor all no wipe foam on the tires, Perfect zero problem tinted windows from 2012 that I had professionally installed by SKYLINE WINDOW TINTING in Newington, VA.
He has done 3 of my cars. Always while you wait...with no appointment!!! He has several different grades. Buy the middle one. My car has 35% all the way around. I also applied gloss black "B" pillars so it looks like the SX-L and they blend in with the glossy tint.

5) Add Factory mud guards

6) Drop in K&N filter has been removed and cleaned twice. I think I am going to toss it and buy a new one. It was just filthy. I always keep the stock one with less than 3k and I put that in while the K&N dries. I still think K and N is going in the trash. It looks like sh** and is not going to last 100k.

7) Kicker stereo with a two 10"s box that fit perfect between the rear struts in the trunk. power is 400 watts RMS. I want clean bass for Iron Maiden and Pantera....not so much 50 cent. Also have kicker Speakers in all 4 doors, stock dash speakers (who cares when I have $400 worth of three ways in the doors) then another 300 watt RMS amp under the passenger seat. Factory stereo means no sense breaking in to the car and I do not stupidly apply "Kicker" speaker and amp stickers to the windows. It's like "steal me".

8) Upgraded the brakes. Stock ones were scary bad. Go test drive a 4 cyl Mustang then go back to your Optima. Really. It will change how you think about your brakes. Since I have no payment but still need a real back seat I spent $500 on an upgraded brake system. I am really happy with them. They came with red painted pads, b raided lines, upgraded pump, hugely better rear brakes. Still no mustang. I wanted cross drilled and al the holes in the rotors-but was advised that those edges work great but will eat my pads in 10k miles. I had to stick with just vented added to the rears.

9) Car looks stock...but like a stock SX-L. No bling...just the tint...and all the $$$$ expensive stuff is hidden. It is a great car I still have 50k and 5.5 years of bumper to bumper factory warranty that I added. None of my changes have voided the warranty. So, it;s a keeper.

Lastly, this is a family car. It is never going to be a 5-point-0 unless you spend $10,000 dollars and even then the frame is not stiff enough. So adding a blower or a turbo is a waste of time and money you can use to upgrade your home A/C to Carrier (Payne is cheap-o) after my whole Payne system died. So glad the car was paid for and I saved a credit card for emergencies.

So, 2012 held together very, very well with only one big-ish problem. I received notice of a recall on the factory high pressure fuel pump I immediately made an appointment but the soonest they had was two weeks later.. The day before the appointment it failed, However, it has a low pressure pump that worked just fine, so I was able to (slowly) drive it in. That back up pump is just good engineering for fuel economy and saved me a tow. Yes...I love my 2012 Optima EX. Oh, I have Sirius that I never use .I use my USB port and a thumb drive on random with about 900 songs. I still have a few CD's with a backup mp3 collection in case I need the USB port to charge my phone. Great,

[Deleted User]

Oh, I will take some new pics and you can see for yourself the 5 year old vs the pics I took the day I brought it home. I will look for them ASAP. Everyone asks me "whats the secret on keeping it looking like it just rolled off the lot?" Shhhhhhhh. The secret is: WORK YOUR [non-permissible content removed] OFF CLEANING AND WAXING IT!!!!!!