Midsize Sedans 2.0

brian125

Accord deals are off the hook this year. Most states buyers are getting close to 2k below invoice price.

2k to 3k below Invoice in MA, MD, VA, FL, CA. It doesn't pay to buy a used Accord. There was a poster who claims in CA. His 16 sport Accord was bought for $3200 below invoice. You could drive that car for a year and probably break even if you sold it.

You could find some really good deals right now on 2 / 3 yr cpo Audi's, Mb, Bmw, Range rover vehicles.

brian125

@suydam

CA has the best pricing on Accords in the country. $2500 to 3k below invoice seems to be the norm with most educated buyers.

nyccarguy

The Plot Thickens:

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/09/2017-ford-fusion-sport-380-lb-ft/

stickguy

40k stick for a fusion. Still a lot. I would trade a little power for more refinement (say an Audi). Though I have driven a spirt yet, do could change my mind! Depreciation though is going to be fierce. So that 1 yo old one in Fall 2017 might be doable.

nyccarguy

stickguy said:

40k stick for a fusion. Still a lot. I would trade a little power for more refinement (say an Audi). Though I have driven a spirt yet, do could change my mind! Depreciation though is going to be fierce. So that 1 yo old one in Fall 2017 might be doable.

I agree, but where else are you going to find that kind of power.  You know they aren't going to sell for anywhere near that once the initial buzz wears off.  $40K gets you a 180 hp BMW 320i.  An Acura TLX V6 with SH-AWD (and a problematic 9 speed automatic).  I'd like to see the loaded Fusion Sport stack up against an A4.

stickguy

Well, I don't need nearly that much power. An A4 or 2.0t fusion (anything in that range) is going to be more than plenty for me I think.

jpp75

nyccarguy said:

I agree, but where else are you going to find that kind of power.  You know they aren't going to sell for anywhere near that once the initial buzz wears off.  $40K gets you a 180 hp BMW 320i.  An Acura TLX V6 with SH-AWD (and a problematic 9 speed automatic).  I'd like to see the loaded Fusion Sport stack up against an A4.

My friend with the TLX V6 hates the 9 speed automatic. He loves the car overall but the transmission ruins it. No way I'd buy the V6 as long as they keep that transmission, I wish the 4 cyl got better gas mileage, it reminds me of the TSX, a very understated car.

stickguy

Only the 4 cyl is on my shopping list. I drove an ilx with that drivetrain, and it was nice.

berri

I dunno, 9 speed, what's the sense? Might as well just drop a cvt into it.

roadburner

I'm thinking that an 8 speed is the sweet spot- especially in a performance car.

Michaell

roadburner said:

I'm thinking that an 8 speed is the sweet spot- especially in a performance car.

...says the guy with the 8-speed auto in his 2-series.

I've got a 6-speed auto in my Elantra GT - seems to be enough for the 148HP engine.

ab348

jpp5862 said:

My friend with the TLX V6 hates the 9 speed automatic. He loves the car overall but the transmission ruins it. No way I'd buy the V6 as long as they keep that transmission, I wish the 4 cyl got better gas mileage, it reminds me of the TSX, a very understated car.

That transmission has been used in the TLX for at least 2 years now and I have not heard one good word about it. Seems odd that Honda would not try to fix it or replace it with something that works better.

ab348

Tonight at an intersection I saw a brand-new Chrysler 200 Limited - still with temporary tags - in a very attractive blue pearl metallic. The wheels were handsome and the car just looked really good to my eye. I know it has not sold well and is going away but I have to think that it is one of the best-looking offerings in that segment, at least in that color/trim.

carperso

ab348 said:

jpp5862 said:

My friend with the TLX V6 hates the 9 speed automatic. He loves the car overall but the transmission ruins it. No way I'd buy the V6 as long as they keep that transmission, I wish the 4 cyl got better gas mileage, it reminds me of the TSX, a very understated car.

That transmission has been used in the TLX for at least 2 years now and I have not heard one good word about it. Seems odd that Honda would not try to fix it or replace it with something that works better.

How is 4 cylinder with the 8 speed DCT?

stickguy

from a test drive in an ILX, just fine. but it was a short drive.

andres3

I think 7-speed is the sweet spot, but I'm currently in a 6-speed.

carperso

What do you guys think about the recent motorweek/cars.com comparo which the Passat won. Yes thats right. VW Passat is apparently the best midsize sedan for 2016. These are the rankings

1. Passat
2. Optima
3. Malibu
4. Sonata
5. Accord
6. Legacy
7. Camry
8. Mazda6
9. Altima

explorerx4

@carperso,
I guess one of criteria is that the model name could not start with F.

ab348

I wonder if they just drew names at random when they were ranking them?

Mr_Shiftright

carperso said:

What do you guys think about the recent motorweek/cars.com comparo which the Passat won. Yes thats right. VW Passat is apparently the best midsize sedan for 2016. These are the rankings

1. Passat
2. Optima
3. Malibu
4. Sonata
5. Accord
6. Legacy
7. Camry
8. Mazda6
9. Altima

Car & Driver didn't think so. It rated the Malibu, Accord and Optima as an "editors choice" among the top 11 sedans they listed. They called the Passat "thoroughly American", but not in a bad way. They also included the Chrysler 200 and Ford Fusion in the general list, saying the Fusion "offered something for everything" and the 200 "resides at the bottom of the pack". Chrysler continues to strike out at the plate apparently.

berri

I don't put much faith in these magazine and TV show rankings. They are really dependent on their parameters employed, priorities and personal preferences. My feeling is test them, find the ones you like best and check out their quality and reliability surveys.

carperso

berri said:

I don't put much faith in these magazine and TV show rankings. They are really dependent on their parameters employed, priorities and personal preferences. My feeling is test them, find the ones you like best and check out their quality and reliability surveys.

Agree. In the end, It all comes down to what works for you.

carperso

Mr_Shiftright said:

carperso said:

What do you guys think about the recent motorweek/cars.com comparo which the Passat won. Yes thats right. VW Passat is apparently the best midsize sedan for 2016. These are the rankings

1. Passat
2. Optima
3. Malibu
4. Sonata
5. Accord
6. Legacy
7. Camry
8. Mazda6
9. Altima

Car & Driver didn't think so. It rated the Malibu, Accord and Optima as an "editors choice" among the top 11 sedans they listed. They called the Passat "thoroughly American", but not in a bad way. They also included the Chrysler 200 and Ford Fusion in the general list, saying the Fusion "offered something for everything" and the 200 "resides at the bottom of the pack". Chrysler continues to strike out at the plate apparently.

Chrysler and Nissan are definitely below par. Camry too, but then anything which starts with a toyota will sell. Car & Driver is a perennial fan of accord, I cant see them dropping it anytime soon. Well, it is good car. The koreans are definitely heavy hitters with their nice interiors and long warranties. Im not so sure about Passat. But after the scandal, there s a lot of cash on the hood which would make it a compelling choice

brian125

Toyota Camry's reliability thru the years . Its not below par

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Toyota_Camry/2015/Reliability/

Mr_Shiftright

C&D comment on the Camry was most certainly a left-handed compliment:

"For the majority of people for whom a car is merely an appliance, the Camry meets their needs to perfection. Those seeking a zestier ride should look elsewhere. A 178-hp four-cylinder is standard, while a 268-hp V-6 offers some serious zip. Both have a six-speed automatic; a manual is not available. There’s a hybrid, with 43 mpg on the highway. The XSE aims at enthusiasts with a stiffer suspension and some extra styling bits, but its steering is numb, its braking and handling unexceptional."

brian125

Here is US news is take on best midsize vehicles.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/rankings/Affordable-Midsize-Cars/

carperso

I dont know if its just me but why is it that the sales number dont add up inline with any of the rankings. Take niche cars like Mazda6 and legacy. They are aimed at a smaller demographic. Legacy is actually well rounded since 2015. Its not a snow belt only car. Its nicely equipped that buyers in the southern states should have no problem picking them up.

brian125

carperso

I see you posted for a price check on your 2014 Audi A6 3.0. Did you sell it yet?. My friend sold same car but in black last month . He had trouble selling it. It sold for 30.5 k after 3 months.

Legacy 4cyl is loud and underpowered. MPG's may be suspect? but a great all around vehicle. Subaru's Small brand less competitive on pricing hurts them .

Mazda6 is not a family sedan in my eye and probably most buyers.

Egress / ingress is terrible. 6ft or over folks will hit there heads getting in and out of vehicle. Seats are brutally hard and uncomfortable. Cockpit to low / contoured . Tight inside for a family of 4. Its a Great handling vehicle . I call it the poor mans BMW without the upgrades and motor.

brian125

@sandman_6472

What's your take on the 2016 Camry and Malibu?

The Sonata or Optima. I liked the Sonata as far as interior room and quiet cabin. Its a straight highway cruiser that was a pleasure to drive. Handling when pushed was iffy. Optima was definitely a better handling more fun to drive with a lot of Sonata's good quality's. Sonata's cock pit was more open and bigger. Kia's SXL model and Turbo engine was fast and shifted effortless. Very quiet also . Kia did a fine job on this model.

Mr_Shiftright

carperso said:

I dont know if its just me but why is it that the sales number dont add up inline with any of the rankings. Take niche cars like Mazda6 and legacy. They are aimed at a smaller demographic. Legacy is actually well rounded since 2015. Its not a snow belt only car. Its nicely equipped that buyers in the southern states should have no problem picking them up.

Many buyers want value for their money rather than the best driving characteristics or "interior materials", etc. If they sit in a Malibu or Camry and they are comfortable, they might not care at all about how the Mazda 6 drives.

carperso

brian125 said:

carperso

I see you posted for a price check on your 2014 Audi A6 3.0. Did you sell it yet?. My friend sold same car but in black last month . He had trouble selling it. It sold for 30.5 k after 3 months.

Legacy 4cyl is loud and underpowered. MPG's may be suspect? but a great all around vehicle. Subaru's Small brand less competitive on pricing hurts them .

Mazda6 is not a family sedan in my eye and probably most buyers.

Egress / ingress is terrible. 6ft or over folks will hit there heads getting in and out of vehicle. Seats are brutally hard and uncomfortable. Cockpit to low / contoured . Tight inside for a family of 4. Its a Great handling vehicle . I call it the poor mans BMW without the upgrades and motor.

30.5k. Seems about right, but yeah 3 months seems like a pretty drawn out process. Was it a private sale? Im not really looking to upgrade right now. More around the last quarter of 2016.

Couldnt agree with you more about the legacy. But then they are selling em as fast as they make so i guess they arent really complaining.

brian125

Private w/ 36k on clock.

I'll tell you what's flying off the shelves at dealerships . The Kia Sorento , Honda Civic's

stickguy

Mazda and Subaru are much smaller players overall. Fewer dealers, more regional. Also don't have the capacity to compete in volume with the big players. They have their niche, and focus on it. No, the 6 is not for everyone, but if you want more of a sporty sedan (driver's car) it is a good one.

look at any ranking of "best" car (particularly anything that involves driving enjoyment) and it will rarely match up to sales.

nyccarguy

@brian125 - I'll agree that the Legacy is adequately powered. The CVT makes the most of the 175 horsepower. It doesn't have any trouble keeping up with traffic. I do have to plan my passing maneuvers ahead of time. Subaru did an excellent job of keeping the engine noise inside the cabin to a minimum (using liquid filled engine mounts). Wind noise seems to be a bit of an issue. I noticed how "thin" the roof was the other day when I was polishing & waxing it with my orbital.

The car is screwed together quite well. The ride is on the sporty side of compliant. Handling is tighter than normal now that I added the rear sway bar from an Outback 3mm thicker). The AWD is worth it's weight in gold..

I have noticed that I seem to be MUCH younger than the average Legacy driver (75?).

nyccarguy

My average lifetime mpg is in the 26 mpg range. Not terrible, but not great considering the Legacy's 175 hp & 9 second 0-60 mph time.

backy

There's been discussion here about the strong sales of the midsized-inside 2016 Civic. I read something in the August MT that sheds some light on why the new Civic is selling so well. According to the article, Honda is most likely selling every Civic in the USA at a loss, to grab market share. Hence it is priced very well against the competition, even against cars with fewer features. The author asks the question, how will the Civic do once Honda raises the price on it, as it will need to do at some point as they can't afford to sell 300k+ cars at a loss every month.

In other news, I thought it was interesting that Kia led the latest JD Power IQS--the first time a non-luxury brand has topped that survey. Also interesting that Hyundai was 3rd, behind Porsche. Toyota was 4th--even topping its luxury brand Lexus. Among US brands, Chevy, Buick, Lincoln, Ford, and GMC all beat the industry average. Curiously, Honda, Acura, Subaru, and Mazda were in the bottom third of the rankings. Overall, US automakers had a better collective score than foreign automakers. Chrysler and Jeep improved the most compared to the last study, but were still in the lower half. GM had the most individual awards. Another indication that car quality is continuing to improve, even as cars get more complex.

stickguy

I think all cars are so good, that top to (near) bottom is probably relatively insignificant statistically.

The civic just seems to be a nice package. I have priced them out, and they did not seem all that cheap to me.

Mr_Shiftright

Some of the car mags think the Nissan Sentra is definitely worst in class and demonstrably so---haven't driven one, so I can't say. The Civic has been getting very high marks though, even with a CVT.

m6user

Where does JD Powers get their info?

akirby

m6user said:

Where does JD Powers get their info?

Random user surveys.

m6user

Really, I have not and I've never known anyone that has been surveyed by them. I wonder how big of sample they get for each vehicle.

imidazol97

I have 3 times. Those were about 1985, 1987, 1989, and maybe 1993 new car purchases. The questionnaires were different. So now I infer they were the early satisfaction questions and a longer term survey.

None have been more recent after new car purchases. But I've had 3 Neilson surveys, two about 4 or 3 years back and then a few months ago...

nyccarguy

I see Toyota is pushing 0% for 72 months or $2,500 cash back on 2016 Camrys

stickguy

that would be hard to pass up if needing basic transport, with the serious discounts you get also.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, if white bread suits you just fine, you can't go wrong with a Camry and resale is still pretty good I think.

backy

m6user said:

Really, I have not and I've never known anyone that has been surveyed by them. I wonder how big of sample they get for each vehicle.

I got a JD Power IQS survey but it was several years ago, I don't even remember which car it was for. But I've had very few problems on new cars for the last 20 years or so. The worst ever new car I've owned or leased as far as initial quality was a 1995 Mystique (which I lovingly refer to at the Mystake). Fun car to drive, but it was the first year it was sold here and I took it to the dealer 7 times in the first 6 months for problems of some sort, including recalls. Nothing I've owned or leased new before or since comes close to that. I can't think of a single problem within the first 90 days (length of the IQS study) on my past 4 new vehicles: 2010 Sentra, 2013 Sonata, 2013 Rio5, and 2016 Forte5. The Rio5 had zero problems the 3 years I leased it, and I don't recall any problems with the Sentra either. The Sonata had a couple of recalls.

sda

Cars have become remarkably reliable and long lasting. Until about 15-20 years ago it wasn't unusual for a car to be all used up and needing major repairs by 100k. Now 300k+ is not that unusual. My BIL has an 05 Acura RL that he bought with 30k, now has 340k+. Some of the soft interior items are showing wear, but still looks nice overall. It still runs and drives well. He recently bought an Accord V6 so one of his sons could have the RL to drive while at college.

brian125

sda said:

Cars have become remarkably reliable and long lasting. Until about 15-20 years ago it wasn't unusual for a car to be all used up and needing major repairs by 100k. Now 300k+ is not that unusual. My BIL has an 05 Acura RL that he bought with 30k, now has 340k+. Some of the soft interior items are showing wear, but still looks nice overall. It still runs and drives well. He recently bought an Accord V6 so one of his sons could have the RL to drive while at college.

I agree with you about vehicle reliability last 15 years . Here in the Northeast especially NY area vehicles with 300k plus miles probably will need 3 to 4 full front end replacements at that mark. Chrysler and American vehicles will fear even worse. Acura's are good solid vehicles.

My old 03 Honda Pilot gave to my niece at 55k and was then passed onto her younger brother is still going. 210k miles Last I checked. Trans replaced at 100k. ($2500 ) Full Ft. end replacement twice. (2) timing belts water pump replacement. and some minor repairs.

Figuring at 5 to 6k in repairs over the years it was still worth keeping around and having kids drive it. Was it worth spending almost 6k in repairs ? Not sure but I'm told its running like a top still.

Mr_Shiftright

300K is still a remarkable achievement for any car. I'm sure the bell curve is much less. I recall reading somewhere that someone figured it out statistically, and the average life span in miles of a modern car (non-diesel) would be about 175K-225K, by the time it goes through all its owners, and IF it survives demolition.

There's the rub. It's like that research that was done on what would happen if medical science could make you "live forever". They calculated that even if all your diseases could be cured, and aging stopped, you'd still die at around 300 years because eventually your entire body would be blown up, crushed, eaten, or some such.

A lot of cars have their lives cut short through mayhem and mishap.

brian125

Just found out the mileage on my old 2003 Honda Pilot that is still running good. 243k on the clock.