Midsize Sedans 2.0

nyccarguy

@andres3 - whoa there!  I'm all for having you punch your CCBA card again, but you need to get acquainted with your gorgeous new TTS before you start making any rash decisions.  Drive it through the summer.  Wait until your job changes before you rush into something.  I personally don't thinknit would be worth the extra expense "just to keep the miles off the TTS."

You our are on the right track by looking at the total cost of the lease instead of just the monthly payment.  

Edmunds has a whole list of $199/month lease deals every month.  

andres3

brian125 said:

andres3

Some good lease midsize deals with 1st month, dealer doc fee and maybe out of pocket taxes paid up front are Altima , Sonata , Camry. 3/36k . $169, 179, $189 month.

Lease prices have regional incentives check your state. I know here in NY I could lease a Altima for $169 month 3/36 with 1k out of pocket for above mentioned expenses. Every 1000 dollars you knock off vehicle price will save you around 30 dollars a month on a lease.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-leasing/monthly-199-lease-deals.html

Are all advertised deals based on full MSRP? I would think to make a good advertisement they'd knock some discount into the advertisement. Perhaps all the incentive is on other factors and costs rather than the purchase price.

brian125

My golf partner has the MB SL600. His beater vehicle is a leased 16 Altima. Perfect for his Golf clubs , daily trips in the rain and snow . Nothing beats a cheap lease especially under 200 dollars where your rented vehicle takes a everyday beating from very bad NYC roads and weather.

In 3yrs throw the keys back at the dealer with front end wear and tear, worn brakes , rotors, wiper blades and hopefully tires.

andres3

nyccarguy said:

@andres3 - whoa there!  I'm all for having you punch your CCBA card again, but you need to get acquainted with your gorgeous new TTS before you start making any rash decisions.  Drive it through the summer.  Wait until your job changes before you rush into something.  I personally don't thinknit would be worth the extra expense "just to keep the miles off the TTS."

You our are on the right track by looking at the total cost of the lease instead of just the monthly payment.  

Edmunds has a whole list of $199/month lease deals every month.  

I agree with you, no rash decisions. The job isn't changing per say, just the location I'm working from or out of daily (to be much improved and much closer to home, but still a commute of probably 20-30 minutes).

I don't know about waiting the WHOLE summer though However, we will definitely wait until all the diesel-gate $5K giveaway details are hatched out; which is supposed to be finalized by the end of June I believe. That will be the minimum wait period to hatch this all out. If anyone deserves the full reported $5K (or more), it'll be owners of nearly new '15 TDI's.

It wouldn't be to just keep miles off the TTS, it would be to have a more convenient family hauler (including occasional visitors including family/friends), and vacation road tripper option other than my wife's wagon being the only choice for that stuff. Although I think the TTS would be a fun road tripper; at least for the driver!

It would also allow me to go with a more extreme tire setup, such as Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2's become feasible, whereas if it is a daily driver, it has got to be just the Super Sports to be more livable day to day. I've been dreaming of drastically overspending on some forged 19" wheels that I've been eyeing for awhile that would look and be great for the car, which would be perfect lightweight wheels for extra fun track use, and make the car a serious force to be reckoned with on the track (not that it already isn't). Also would allow me to not worry about swapping wheels/tires out for track weekends like many do (I don't like the hassle of running a mobile tire shop). Not planning on ever buying a truck/SUV and trailer to haul the TTS above ground either. EDIT: We'll, what's a Forester XT's towing capacity? Guess I should consider all options How much does a trailer bed for a car cost?

In other words, by becoming more of a toy, it can become more focused like a TT-RS. More customization; but really, a stage 1 tune and lighter weight 19" wheels is all I see this car needing since it came with beautiful but huge 20 inchers. Impossible to find detailed specs on OEM wheels, but I saw someone online report the forged Audi 20" wheels are 4 pounds lighter each as compared to the regular OEM 19". Only problem I foresee is that 20" tires cost about 25% more than 19" tires. That doesn't come close to justifying the expense of forged 19" wheels, but it doesn't hurt The lifespans of the tire sets on a properly driven TTS should be pretty short.

Where was I when they launched this car? I'm an Audi guy and even I didn't hear about it or this car until about 2 months ago at the earliest; which was way too late for a Launch Edition TTS. They really haven't been marketing it at all. What I missed out on was the "Launch Edition" package which came with the red interior, forged performance oriented 19" wheels, and much more for a bargain price of $6K. I think you had to get pearl or metallic black exterior though (too hot for CA), but still a steal of a deal at the price. You don't get registration fees refunded in CA, so I suppose I got nearly 1/2 of my yearly money's worth by waiting until the last day of April to trade in the S4.

Michaell

akirby said:

I don't remember any scams from the Honda dealers. They just said "here is the price - get in line if you want one". Can't blame them for that.

Maybe not with the customers, but the national sales team did all sorts of bad acts. Read "Arrogance and Accords" for a behind the scenes look at the corruption.

brian125

No not all. There is always more room to negotiate price down on leases. .

EXample: The Kia Sorento has $2500 plus in lease cash on lower models and up to 6500 or higher models.

brian125

@michaell could tell you what models have the best leasing numbers right now.

stickguy

Cheap lease for drone miles makes a ton of sense. Might get a good deal on a Jetta too, and much less of a barge, while bring plenty big for a family of 4 to travel in.

sda

Michaell said:

akirby said:

I don't remember any scams from the Honda dealers. They just said "here is the price - get in line if you want one". Can't blame them for that.

Maybe not with the customers, but the national sales team did all sorts of bad acts. Read "Arrogance and Accords" for a behind the scenes look at the corruption.

Isn't that what got Hendrick in hot water or at least suspected of doing?

Michaell

sda said:

akirby said:

I don't remember any scams from the Honda dealers. They just said "here is the price - get in line if you want one". Can't blame them for that.

Maybe not with the customers, but the national sales team did all sorts of bad acts. Read "Arrogance and Accords" for a behind the scenes look at the corruption.

Isn't that what got Hendrick in hot water or at least suspected of doing?

Yes he was one of the dealers accused, though I don't believe any charges were brought. 

akirby

All of those advertised leases already include discounts and incentives (usually).

akirby

Oops - unless you have individual or special rebates.

andres3

VW is hurting for sales I think; they are doing some killer lease deals it seems on anything that isn't a hot seller (Golf/Golf R).

wayne21

When I finished college (1982) I looked at Honda and Toyota . Every Honda and toyota clearly had a second sticker that listed every imaginable thing they could add (at high prices) and added something like added market value or additional dealer profit to that sticker. All in all they added a couple thousand dollars to the price of a 6 or 7,000 car. I opted to go the Chrysler route and buy a K-car (one of Lee Iacocca's cars - not as bad as the Pinto he was responsible for, but not much to write home about either). Honda and Toyota dealers really had an arrogance about them and I walked away with the impression if I would kiss their butts and let them sleep with my girl friend they would consider blessing me an opportunity to overpay for one of their cars.

Michaell

andres3 said:

VW is hurting for sales I think; they are doing some killer lease deals it seems on anything that isn't a hot seller (Golf/Golf R).

The GTI, the golf far, and the golf sport wagon are the best sellers and have the highest money factors. The GTI, the golf R and the golf sportwagon are the best sellers and have the highest money factors

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Quick! Somebody nudge MIchaell---he's stuck!

stever

A reporter is looking to speak with someone over the age of 50 who recently purchased a new vehicle within the last six months. If you're willing to assist, please reach out to pr@edmunds.com by June 2, 2016.

ab348

The ATS is getting serviced today so I was given a new Malibu as a rental/loaner. It is a LT model so pretty representative of the bulk of them I suppose.

Lots of room inside, but the cloth upholstery is pretty burlap-ish. They do have two patterns of cloth, a plain black weave along with a patterned black with gray material. That last type also makes an appearance on the dash, which I am less than crazy about but whatever. The dash materials are not hard plastic but a rubberish material that gives a little when touched. There is a huge mostly flat area between the dash and the base of the windshield. Pillars are thick but that is par for the course these days. Rear visibility not great. Dash design probably better than the previous generation but it seems almost Chrysler-like to me somehow. Not a huge fan.

Trunk is a decent size but if there is an interior release button I haven't found it yet. No handle to close the trunk with either, nor is a cargo net standard. I haven't used the rear seat but it looks a decent size.

I was surprised at the amount of engine noise when I first drove it. I guess next to the Caddy that isn't a fair comparison and I don't know how it compares to other cars in its class in that regard. I didn't notice much road noise around town but did when I got it on the highway. It has the start-stop tech for the engine and it is fairly unobtrusive - I don't know how they get the engine to start without any noticeable cranking, but it does. The one thing I found a bit odd is that when you are pointing nose-down a hill and the engine stops, there is a bit of a lag in rolling forward once you take your foot off the brake. It just seems weird. Also one time it had stopped and after a bit started again without me taking my foot off the brake. Ghost in the machine stuff happening.

I guess it has the 1.5 turbo and it seems adequate. Certainly around town it is nowhere near as zippy as my car but that should be expected. It seemed fine on the highway. All in all it is not a car I can see myself ever buying now but I suppose it suits a lot of people.

explorerx4

@ab348, The Malibu might have a hill holder brake feature.

ab348

explorerx4 said:

@ab348, The Malibu might have a hill holder brake feature.

You wouldn't need a hill holder going downhill though? I dunno. I think I'd be inclined to try to turn off the auto-stop stuff if I could.

One other thing I found that I didn't like. The shift lever doesn't have a detent coming out of Park, so when I pulled the shifter back after a startup, it always went into Low. I never had that issue with other cars recently, which always seemed to have a gate to prevent that.

benjaminh

midsize sales in May:

Camry 36,916

Accord 31,949

Altima 28,404

Fusion 24,589

Malibu 24,202

Sonata 15,879

Optima 10,895

200 7,600

Legacy 5,265

6 5,027

benjaminh

compact/midsize sales

Civic 35,396

Corolla 34,872

Elantra 22,168

Sentra 20,204

Focus 17,455

Cruze 16,671

3 10,127

Forte 9,910

Impreza 5,928

sda

benjaminh said:

midsize sales in May:

Camry 36,916

Accord 31,949

Altima 28,404

Fusion 24,589

Malibu 24,202

Sonata 15,879

Optima 10,895

200 7,600

Legacy 5,265

6 5,027

Wasn't the Passat included?

benjaminh

Passat 7,129

carperso

benjaminh said:

midsize sales in May:

Camry 36,916

Accord 31,949

Altima 28,404

Fusion 24,589

Malibu 24,202

Sonata 15,879

Optima 10,895

200 7,600

Legacy 5,265

6 5,027

Ridiculous number for mazda6. Am curious. Is there a production issue with mazda. is it bad dealer network. Its last by a distance and they even sell to rental fleets and somehow it wins all the comparision tests.

stickguy

Niche type car ( the sporty option never sells big) and small dealer network, especially off the coasts. They also I think have some capacity constraints and do ship from the homeland.

Still seems like the should sell more, but being in with Passat and legacy seems about right to me.

Michaell

stickguy said:

Niche type car ( the sporty option never sells big) and small dealer network, especially off the coasts. They also I think have some capacity constraints and do ship from the homeland.

Still seems like the should sell more, but being in with Passat and legacy seems about right to me.

I think there are 4-5 Mazda dealers in metro Denver - probably the same number as Nissan. Toyota may have 1-2 more here.

m6user

There may be almost as many Mazda dealers in large metropolitan areas but not in smaller cities. Mazda dealers also aren't nearly as large so you almost drive by without noticing them. They only have only about six models. Toyota has like twelve. The 6 is the only midsize car that is built in Japan and imported. Mazda markets to drivers, the rest mainly market to families which is what midsize cars are all about. Legacy is also highly rated by CR and others but doesn't sell in huge numbers either.

We have two 6's, a 2016 and the granddaughter has our 2007 with 125,000 miles and still no repairs except one wheel bearing. Both great cars if you like to drive. Some people think they aren't quiet enough but I'll gladly trade that for the confident sporty drive of the 6.

andres3

m6user said:

There may be almost as many Mazda dealers in large metropolitan areas but not in smaller cities. Mazda dealers also aren't nearly as large so you almost drive by without noticing them. They only have only about six models. Toyota has like twelve. The 6 is the only midsize car that is built in Japan and imported. Mazda markets to drivers, the rest mainly market to families which is what midsize cars are all about. Legacy is also highly rated by CR and others but doesn't sell in huge numbers either.

We have two 6's, a 2016 and the granddaughter has our 2007 with 125,000 miles and still no repairs except one wheel bearing. Both great cars if you like to drive. Some people think they aren't quiet enough but I'll gladly trade that for the confident sporty drive of the 6.

I have to admit I liked Mazda more back when they thought they were an Acura competitor and had 4 year/50 K warranties, rather than the short 3/36. I also think they'd sell better if they found a better middle ground between eco power and Mazdaspeed power. It seems to me all their offerings are in the eco range now, with nothing seriously powerful/zoom zoom.

roadburner

m6user said:

There may be almost as many Mazda dealers in large metropolitan areas but not in smaller cities. Mazda dealers also aren't nearly as large so you almost drive by without noticing them. They only have only about six models. Toyota has like twelve. The 6 is the only midsize car that is built in Japan and imported. Mazda markets to drivers, the rest mainly market to families which is what midsize cars are all about. Legacy is also highly rated by CR and others but doesn't sell in huge numbers either.

We have two 6's, a 2016 and the granddaughter has our 2007 with 125,000 miles and still no repairs except one wheel bearing. Both great cars if you like to drive. Some people think they aren't quiet enough but I'll gladly trade that for the confident sporty drive of the 6.

I waited and waited for the oft-rumored 300 hp AWD MS3 to replace my 2007 MS3; but I finally gave up...

m6user

Being a very small automaker, I think they take things slowly as they can't afford to spend a lot of money on something that may sell in relatively minute numbers. I'm hoping they take the new turbo 2.5 that is in the new CX-9 and move it down to the rest of the line. It could be a V6 replacement in the 6 and Mazdaspeed 3 option. With over 300 pound torque and 227 hp on reg gas it sounds great and I'm sure it could be tweaked for even more hp. Maybe even a CX-5 "RS" or something. Lot of potential there.

roadburner

Well, the MS3 was a hot seller- at least at it's introduction. I had to buy mine from a high volume dealer over 120 miles away to avoid an ADM sticker. An AWD MS3 would put Mazda in the thick of a popular segment- Golf R, Focus RS, STI... I actually did think getting about a Mazda 3 Grand Touring with a stick, but I already have one "momentum car" in the garage so I really wanted something with considerably more grunt. The Miata was nice too, but not allowed at the HPDEs where I usually instruct.

benjaminh

The VW Golf is by the epa measure "midsize," like the Civic and Corolla. But it takes VW about a month at this point to sell as many Golfs as Toyota and Honda sell of their vehicles in a day.....

Golf 1,013 -48.6%

nyccarguy

I just got done reading edmunds "$199 per month lease deals for June." They say a Subaru Legacy 3.6R Limited can be leased for $299 per month with $0 down and 12K miles per year. The biggest complaint I have about my Legacy is its lack of motivation. An extra 2 cylinders (I realize this adds weight) and 90 horsepower would definitely address that issue. It is a good deal (maybe it can get cheaper) on a pretty nice car.

stickguy

Is a nice deal. If I was buying now, would give it a look.

carperso

nyccarguy said:

I just got done reading edmunds "$199 per month lease deals for June." They say a Subaru Legacy 3.6R Limited can be leased for $299 per month with $0 down and 12K miles per year. The biggest complaint I have about my Legacy is its lack of motivation. An extra 2 cylinders (I realize this adds weight) and 90 horsepower would definitely address that issue. It is a good deal (maybe it can get cheaper) on a pretty nice car.

Is it with eyesight? How much would the 4 cylinder run?

nyccarguy

My only problem is that I drive 20K per year.  Add an extra 24,000 miles at $.15 (which isn't that bad) and you get $100 more per month (plus tax).  $299 per month plus tax becomes $399 per month plus tax.  My base payment is $405.07 per month and I will own the car.  

$399 lease payments for 36 months is over $14K and I've got to give the car back.  

akirby

But you'll have to pay $405 for longer than 36 months.

nyccarguy

Correct. I took out a 72 month loan at 2.9% APR. My monthly payments are $405.07. Since this past September (the 1 year mark), I started to put an extra $200 per month towards the principle. I paid off my wife's Pilot just a few weeks ago. I plan on doubling the Legacy payments starting this Month until it's paid off.

I drive 20K miles per year. Leasing gets expensive for me.

stickguy

RDX goes in tomorrow for an oil change. Should I be embarrassed that it was 54 weeks since the last visit, but I just cracked4K miles? Heck, the maintenance minder is still sitting at 50% (I know now that the Acura system does not also look at days).

got a real good coupon. oil change, tire rotation, and multi point inspection. plus a wash (that it does not need and I will decline). $29.95 at the dealer. Might be a slight surcharge for blend oil though (not sure on that). But it doesn't use synthetic.

akirby

nyccarguy said:

I drive 20K miles per year. Leasing gets expensive for me.

It isn't the mileage that makes it expensive per se - your vehicles depreciate faster than average because of the mileage. That applies whether you're leasing or buying - depreciation is depreciation. But if you're buying you can spread the cost out over 6 years whereas if you're leasing you have to pay the higher first 3 years of depreciation each time you get a new lease.

You'd be in the same boat if you purchased and traded it in after 3 years - you're still paying that super high depreciation.

fushigi

6 years .. or longer. I have a coworker who yesterday was talking about her 2003 Nissan Z with 202K miles. It's her daily driver from Indiana into Chicago & sees 17-18K miles per year. No significant repairs beyond a manifold cover & replacement of part of the exhaust (due to rust from salted roads in the midwest). She dreads the idea of taking on a payment again.

My '10 CUV w/53K miles has been payment-free for a year and a half. I'm setting aside $300 a month anyways to build up a down payment for my next ride and to cover any non-gas expenses in the mean time. It adds up quick and keeps the idea, at least, of a payment in the budget. I'd much rather be making a payment to myself than to a finance co. Also good to earn interest instead of paying it.

nyccarguy

akirby said:

I drive 20K miles per year. Leasing gets expensive for me.

It isn't the mileage that makes it expensive per se - your vehicles depreciate faster than average because of the mileage. That applies whether you're leasing or buying - depreciation is depreciation. But if you're buying you can spread the cost out over 6 years whereas if you're leasing you have to pay the higher first 3 years of depreciation each time you get a new lease. You'd be in the same boat if you purchased and traded it in after 3 years - you're still paying that super high depreciation.

I'm trying to avoid the "purchased and traded it in after 3 years" thing which is difficult because I am a card carrying member of Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous here on edmunds.com

even if I were to buy & trade after 3 years, I'd still have options.  I'd have equity in the car after 3 years (even if I were to not make extra payments.  If I wanted to wait to get a new car, I can.  When you lease is up, you have to take whatever deal you can get that month.  When I bought my Legacy in September 2014 (I had an expiring lease), the 2015 new body had just come out.  I got a reasonable deal, but yet deals got MUCH better as the months went on and initial demand wore off.

nyccarguy

carperso said:

I just got done reading edmunds "$199 per month lease deals for June." They say a Subaru Legacy 3.6R Limited can be leased for $299 per month with $0 down and 12K miles per year. The biggest complaint I have about my Legacy is its lack of motivation. An extra 2 cylinders (I realize this adds weight) and 90 horsepower would definitely address that issue. It is a good deal (maybe it can get cheaper) on a pretty nice car.

Is it with eyesight? How much would the 4 cylinder run?

That's probably without eyesight.  The eyesight is fantastic technology and is very reasonably priced for what you get.  I originally wanted an eyesight equipped car, but was told due to initial demand, I'd have to wait.  That wasn't an option as I had an expiring lease and needed a car.  That being said, it would have also cost me a lot more money.  Eyesight was only available if you got the aunroof & navigation.  Plus at the time they were not generously discounting eyesight equipped cars.  I also have been living without it for the past 21 months and have managed to survive.

stickguy

Bradd, you are IMO a good candidate for a few tear OD, low miles buy. Like GGs accord (2013 with 17k on it). After 3 years, it is 6yo with~75k on it, so relatively normal miles. Easy to sell, or ready for many more years of use.

Works even better for cars that have worse initial depreciation. Maybe a sonata, or fusion.

I used to use this plan for my car. Might go back to it next time. Or if my miles are still looking to be real low, the flip side. Save even more $ on a higher mile unit (like what your legacy will be) and put on low miles to average it out!

nyccarguy

My brain agrees with you @stickguy, but the 3 year old cars (Accord especially) with less than 20K on the odometer usually isn't that much less expensive than new.

Mr_Shiftright

nyccarguy said:

My brain agrees with you @stickguy, but the 3 year old cars (Accord especially) with less than 20K on the odometer usually isn't that much less expensive than new.

What do you figure on an Accord... depreciation of about 35% after 3 years?

suydam

That's about right. I just sold my '13 Accord EX-L to a friend for $17.500. It's in excellent shape but was in a fender-bender and also had a few "garage kisses".

stickguy

yeah, that is why I noted it works better on cars that don't have silly resale. Hondas tend to be better to buy new and hold. But not every good quality car works like that.

akirby

nyccarguy said:

akirby said:

nyccarguy said:

I drive 20K miles per year. Leasing gets expensive for me.

It isn't the mileage that makes it expensive per se - your vehicles depreciate faster than average because of the mileage. That applies whether you're leasing or buying - depreciation is depreciation. But if you're buying you can spread the cost out over 6 years whereas if you're leasing you have to pay the higher first 3 years of depreciation each time you get a new lease.

You'd be in the same boat if you purchased and traded it in after 3 years - you're still paying that super high depreciation.

I'm trying to avoid the "purchased and traded it in after 3 years" thing which is difficult because I am a card carrying member of Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous here on edmunds.com

even if I were to buy & trade after 3 years, I'd still have options.  I'd have equity in the car after 3 years (even if I were to not make extra payments.  If I wanted to wait to get a new car, I can.  When you lease is up, you have to take whatever deal you can get that month.  When I bought my Legacy in September 2014 (I had an expiring lease), the 2015 new body had just come out.  I got a reasonable deal, but yet deals got MUCH better as the months went on and initial demand wore off.

Yes - purchasing gives you much more flexibility. I wasn't trying to convince you that leasing is better - just explaining that the cost is in buying a new vehicle every 3 years regardless of whether you lease or buy.

suydam

We only sold because we are moving and want a much smaller vehicle in the new locale.