Midsize Sedans 2.0

roadburner

akirby said:

ab348 said:

The Sentra numbers are what I cannot fathom.

Fleet sales

And sales to the visually impaired...

stickguy

saw a new accord parked in a lot today. dark gray. Looked sharp. Bet dang it is big.

RB, I think the Sentra sells primarily on price. And plenty of people find that to be the primary, if not only, criteria.

imidazol97

ab348 said:

The Sentra numbers are what I cannot fathom.

They really pump out the Sentras around here. There's a dealer that moves them--it's a store also selling Ford and Lincoln.

imidazol97

stickguy said:

saw a new accord parked in a lot today. dark gray. Looked sharp. Bet dang it is big.

RB, I think the Sentra sells primarily on price. And plenty of people find that to be the primary, if not only, criteria.

Along with the Chrysler 200 around here.

akirby

imidazol97 said:

Along with the Chrysler 200 around here.

Not since they discontinued it last year.

andres3

So I went and test drove the Accord 2.0T Sport model even though I have more than a year left on my Kia lease. At first, they only had a 6-speed manual but we drove that to their storage lot and picked up a 10-speed auto for the purposes of my test.

Honda has made a compelling offering, and I love what they've done on paper, but here's the real world results. They've done a good job on several fronts, but they've missed the mark in a few key areas.

1) Price - $30K is stiff for a Sport model that lacks some of the niceties like leather, an upgraded sound system, and probably something else, but it's fairly well-equipped.

2) Not sure the fuel economy is all that compelling at 22 City, 34 highway. 26 combined. The bright side of this is that the car drives well, effortless power, and it isn't hesitant to hold a gear even with light accelerator pedal input. My fear of constant upshifts was unfounded. It doesn't upshift, even in regular mode. It likes to go go go! I mean GO GO GO!

3) It sounds much better under load than the Kia 1.6T which is thrashy and unrefined. This sounds much more satisfying.

4) The transmission, while very pleasantly reluctant to constantly upshift, isn't very fast to downshift, even in "Sport" mode. Call me spoiled by dual-clutches, but it shifts slow when you need a downshift. Not worse than other slow automatics, but not better either. The Kia dual-clutch isn't good for a DCT, so we'll call it a tie.

5) The interior was and is at least equal to the Kia Stinger's $50K interior, or $40K interior. This bodes well as I was reviewing a Sport model at $30K. The Touring is more costly, but has excellent leather (and is even slightly better), they are stomping on Acura's toes there! I liked the interior, as you can tell. I think appropriate for the price point (while the Kia Stinger isn't, unless you get a 2.0 model for $30K if that's possible?)

6) Seemed to handle well in my limited turning tests. Spun the front tires when testing the engine (oh yeah, forgot it wasn't AWD - oops!

7) The moonroof standard in the 2.0T is a mistake. Makes the roof ever so slightly lower than I'd like. I'm 6'3" tall.

8) The steering wheel doesn't have nearly enough telescoping travel. I have long legs, and shorter torso/arms vs. the rest of my body. The center console and push button start are right up on my right knee, while I"m stretching to reach the steering wheel slightly more than I'd like with my hands/arms. Missed the mark here, disappointingly. This Accord is built for people either under 6' tall, or for people with proportionally short legs.

9) I think they don't offer the preferable dark blue on the model I was driving, instead offering a more purplish lighter blue I don't like nearly as much as the dark blue. I think I have to go touring or 1.5 to get the color I'd want.

stickguy

well, as a general rule, if you want a lot of power, you will lose some MPG. but i would be surprised if that car in the real world (unless you drive flat out constantly) didn't beat those MPG ratings.

nyccarguy

stickguy said:

well, as a general rule, if you want a lot of power, you will lose some MPG. but i would be surprised if that car in the real world (unless you drive flat out constantly) didn't beat those MPG ratings.

I’m sure it gets better gas mileage than my Infiniti.  I’m really interested to see real world reviews on the Mazda 6 Turbo.

stickguy

probably going to be a slow seller though. Shrinking market for the class, going to be expensive, and not that many midsize buyers want to pay for more HP.

Michaell

stickguy said:

probably going to be a slow seller though. Shrinking market for the class, going to be expensive, and not that many midsize buyers want to pay for more HP.

There was pricing at the auto show. Signature trim was something like $34k

stickguy

going to be a tough sell for a Mazda sedan.

sda

Looking at Accord models and pricing I am floored by the 2k premium the 2.0t commands over a similar 1.5t. With the exception of the Sport which gets a lot more features vs the 1.5 (and about 4.5k more) I don't see any additional features added when you get the 2.0t. Is that drivetrain significantly more expensive to produce?

ab348

It seems that Honda is following the practice of GM and Ford by charging a premium of that amount to get the upgrade engine. I'm sure the extra cost is nominal. I've always felt that way even going back to the old days. Was a 350 all that much more expensive to make than a 307?

stickguy

the engine itself is probably minimal. It does, however, have a totally different tranny (10 speed auto vs. a CVT). So that might have some actual cost.

but mostly I think you pay for the HP.

benjaminh

Motor Trend likes the 2018 Accord Touring a little bit better than an Audi A4....

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/audi/a4/2018/2018-audi-a4-ultra-premium-vs-2018-honda-accord-20t-touring-comparison-review/

"....The Accord is properly quick from 0 to 60 mph, needing just 5.8 seconds, and thanks to its fast-shifting transmission, it also doesn’t suffer from noticeable turbo lag, needing only 2.8 seconds to complete a 45–65-mph pass....Verdict: It’s close, but at this 40 grand price point the Accord Touring is a more convincing luxury car than the A4 Ultra. “Audi does a superb job of dressing up the A4 to keep your eyes away from the cost-saving measures,” Evans said, “but when you dig even a little bit, you find them.” That, coupled with its imperfect road manners, sinks the Audi. The Accord, on the other hand, makes a strong effort at defining the holistic luxury experience. It’s not perfect, but it does just above everything a little bit better than the A4—it’s nicer to drive, more sophisticated, and more rewarding to spend time in. Is luxury worth it? Sometimes. But in this case, the mainstream is luxury. Honda won this battle by a whisker....."

benjaminh

Automobile magazine gives the Accord Sport 2.0 a strong review overall, but also says:

"To many of our eyes, it’s not a particularly attractive vehicle, either in silhouette or in detail."

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/2018-stars-contender-2018-honda-accord-2-0t-sport/

I agree. The styling of this car is just strange. To me it's almost 1958 Edsel strange.

But anyway, this is probably the main the reason why some people are now getting more than $3000 off of list price already on the all-new Accord. Plus Honda now has 1.9% financing for the Accord.

For those who want more power than the 1.5 turbo, but want higher mpg than the 2.0 turbo, believe it or not an option exists. The hybrid has slightly more power than the 1.5, and is EPA rated at 47 mpg.

imidazol97

Motorweek had some thinly veiled criticisms of the Accord a couple weeks back. Usually they're right there in the tank for Honda products.

I keep seeing it as a Civicord.

benjaminh

1958 Edsel....

iluvmysephia1

'58 Edsel Pacer. The car looks dweeby in front to me but, sort of like the '62 Dodge Dart that was invert-a-styled, I think I could grow ta like this big 'ole automotive Great Dane!

imidazol97

iluvmysephia1 said:

'58 Edsel Pacer. The car looks dweeby in front to me but, sort of like the '62 Dodge Dart that was invert-a-styled, I think I could grow ta like this big 'ole automotive Great Dane!

That's a beautiful example of color and style for the Edsel. I like that/

benjaminh

I like the design of dash of the 2019 Altima, which is a surprise to me, because previously I haven't liked Nissan's designs all that much....

benjaminh

I also think the front end of the next generation Altima, although not as attractive as the Mazda6, is better than what Honda and Toyota have going on at this point....

benjaminh

Imho the Mazda6 is the best looking midsize sedan for 2018....

stickguy

Odd. I actually like the front end and dash on that Altima. Definitely not something I could have said since the first generation in the mid-90s. I wonder how it drives? Certainly will still have the CVT of course, but hopefully they have managed to refine that by now.

benjaminh

The profile of the 2019 Altima also looks good imho. And it will have better rear visibility than almost anything else in the class. The only car to equal it, I think, will be the Camry. The Accord, unfortunately, has gone from best-in-class rear visibility to close to worst....

benjaminh

A few things from Nissan on the 2019 Altima....

"Standard on all grade levels is the new 2.5-liter DOHC inline 4-cylinder direct injection engine, which is rated at 188 horsepower (versus the previous 2.5-liter's 179 hp) and 180 lb-ft of torque (versus the previous 177 lb-ft) and features 80% new or redesigned parts.

More than just the gains in horsepower and torque, the new engine offers improvements in noise, vibration and harshness, along with enhanced fuel economy and cleaner emissions. It also has a lower profile through adoption of a "reverse" cylinder head with integrated exhaust manifold and low engine mounting into the new platform's engine bay for quieter operation.

Key changes to the engine's design include a thermal-insulated resin intake port, Direct Injection Gasoline (DIG™) system, variable tumble control valve, mirror bore cylinder coating, variable displacement oil pump, intake e-VTC and cooled external EGR. The new 2.5-liter engine is assembled in Decherd, Tennessee....

Key suspension changes include the first Altima application of monotube rear shocks, added suspension reinforcements to improve vehicle response without impacting harshness, and suspension geometry adjustments to improve steering feedback....

The steering system has been upgraded to a new dual-pinion electric power steering design (DP-EPS), which enhances steering feel performance and reduces steering system noise....

Compared with the previous generation, the new Altima is 1.1 inches lower in height, 1.0 inches longer in length and 0.9 inches wider – while also featuring a smaller front overhang thanks a 1.9-inch longer wheelbase and the rear wheels being pushed farther to the corners. The result is a dramatically sleeker yet more sophisticated look. The coefficient of drag is just 0.26....

Every 2019 Altima also comes equipped with standard NissanConnectSM featuring Apple CarPlay™ and Android Auto™, with 8-inch multi-touch color display..."

stickguy

when does this come out? I do have a round of test driving coming up.

benjaminh

From Nissan: "Set for fall 2018 U.S. launch, Altima sets new standards for Nissan sedan design....The 2019 Altima will be offered in a range of trim levels – S, SR, SV, SL and Platinum.....And, an exclusive launch edition based on the Platinum VC-Turbo will be offered in limited quantities and open for reservations in early summer 2018."

What's interesting to me about the Altima is that the base model is so well equipped, apparently beating out the Honda Accord LX on that score.

stickguy

thanks. I am mostly curious to see it. I can't imagine laying out the money to actually buy one. It won't be that cheap (unless there was one hell of a lease deal!) Plus not really the type of car I would likely be interested in.

andres3

Nissan must of got upset when CR recently published that regarding CVT's, even though they went all-in on CVT's first, Nissan was grouped into the manufacturer's that just don't know how to do them right.

berri

8) The steering wheel doesn't have nearly enough telescoping travel. I have long legs, and shorter torso/arms vs. the rest of my body. The center console and push button start are right up on my right knee, while I"m stretching to reach the steering wheel slightly more than I'd like with my hands/arms. Missed the mark here, disappointingly. This Accord is built for people either under 6' tall, or for people with proportionally short legs.

Honestly, some Toyota's have similar issues. I think they probably design for the Asian market first and then send 'em over here.

berri

I've been a bit surprised that many like the new Altima design. The rear door and C pillar just seem odd to me. Maybe a bit of Dodge Charger influence there? But styling is an individual thing and I'd expect Nissan put it through some consumer research before investing in it. I wonder if the new Altima will go the Camry/Accord route with lowered ground clearance and rooflines?

ab348

berri said:

I've been a bit surprised that many like the new Altima design. The rear door and C pillar just seem odd to me. Maybe a bit of Dodge Charger influence there? But styling is an individual thing and I'd expect Nissan put it through some consumer research before investing in it. I wonder if the new Altima will go the Camry/Accord route with lowered ground clearance and rooflines?

The pictures here make it look low though those are factory shots so who knows if they haven't been massaged a bit. But it looks to have the requisite gun-slit side windows and the rear 3/4 visibility looks bad.

berri

Anyone with lots of winter snow will soon find out why lowered ground clearance wasn't a long lasting fad in car buyer preferences in other than sports cars. Be careful on those steeply sloped driveways too! Won't just be your a.. feeling like its dragging low to the the ground

tjc78

berri said:

I've been a bit surprised that many like the new Altima design. The rear door and C pillar just seem odd to me. Maybe a bit of Dodge Charger influence there? But styling is an individual thing and I'd expect Nissan put it through some consumer research before investing in it. I wonder if the new Altima will go the Camry/Accord route with lowered ground clearance and rooflines?

The C pillar is a mess for sure.  

explorerx4

Saw a Honda lease ad in the local paper for a Civic LX and Accord LX.
Both were 2018 down. Civic was $129, Accord $209.
That's a lot more to get into an Accord.

stickguy

the C pillar looks like a slightly toned down Maxima. I would have to see in person to decide. the front end at least looks better.

berri

I rented a new Maxima a few months ago. Got to the Hertz slot and the trunk was so puny it wouldn't fit two suitcases. Had to change vehicle. Hopefully they haven't done that dumb move on the Altima. I also thought the Maxima looks were as weird as Lexus.

suydam

That’s a surprise. My ‘01 Maxima had a HUGE trunk.

berri

Take a look at a new one (caution: you might need eye protection)!

sda

A local VW dealer has $7k off new '18 Passats which underscores the slow selling midsize sector. I would think that makes for a solid buy.

Michaell

sda said:

A local VW dealer has $7k off new '18 Passats which underscores the slow selling midsize sector. I would think that makes for a solid buy.

Yes, yes it would.

Not that I'm in the market or anything ....

stickguy

not a bad deal there. will check them out too when looking with the kid.

benjaminh

This reviewer really likes the 2018 Accord Sport. Msrp $26.6k. But some people seem to be getting 3000 or so off....I still think the styling looks strange. But I like the interior.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoz6fX-Lpi8

wayne21

sda said:

A local VW dealer has $7k off new '18 Passats which underscores the slow selling midsize sector. I would think that makes for a solid buy.

That may or may not mean anything. Our local dealer was marking $6k off new altimas. He had them priced at $38k (with all his markups) and offered $6k to bring it down to $32k. I think a lot of dealers mark their cars up then advertise a discount... yielding the original price.

sda

wayne21 said:

sda said:

A local VW dealer has $7k off new '18 Passats which underscores the slow selling midsize sector. I would think that makes for a solid buy.

That may or may not mean anything. Our local dealer was marking $6k off new altimas. He had them priced at $38k (with all his markups) and offered $6k to bring it down to $32k. I think a lot of dealers mark their cars up then advertise a discount... yielding the original price.

True, however this looked legit. '18 Passat SE for $20600. Not sure if that included shipping, or what additional charges the dealer tacks on.

benjaminh

My local VW dealer has a new, nicely equipped 2018 Passat for 20k flat. It's the R-line....

STOCK182168VIN1VWAA7A30JC011225
CHECK AVAILABILITY
Pricing information for 04/17/2018
SAVE
MSRP $26,490
Spring Sale Event Price $19,998

https://www.bachmanvolkswagen.com/inventory/new-2018-volkswagen-passat-2-0t-r-line-fwd-4dr-car-1vwaa7a30jc011225

But in this recent comparison someone liked the 2018 Accord better than the 2018 Passat R-line....The Accord was a loaded model that's probably about $10k more. The Passat is a lot of car for the money. A Sport Accord would be about 23k, which would be a closer comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1l_iMjrRqI

explorerx4

An Accord much like the one in the review showed up in the parking lot at work today.
A front plate does a lot to change the look of the front end.

benjaminh

Some 2018 VWs now have auto stop/start. Sam Haymart of Test Driven TV absolutely hates VW's auto start/stop system. He's normally a calm guy, but watch him melt down about this feature in his test of the 2018 Golf GTI. The meltdown begins at about 3:15 and continues for more than minute: "I want to take an ice pick and stab the engine full of holes, and then burn the car down the ground behind a big box store."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnywh0ZR2t4&t=300s

explorerx4

Some stop/start systems work better than others and some people just don't like them.
I have it on a couple of my vehicles and leave it on.
For me, it definitely make a difference in the fuel mileage.
Since my last service, it hasn't been as active as usual and I just had my worst tank ever.