Midsize Sedans 2.0

fushigi

Profit margins + consumer good will aren't positively impacted when you recall over a million cars with the potential problem of the steering wheel coming off while driving.

berri

Personally, I never understood Mark Fields as Mulally's replacement. Too much old Ford history and Ford North America seemed to be losing traction other than trucks while he ran that. Once Mulally was gone they seemed to revert from some of the product and quality gains they had made. I also think they diverted too much attention and dollars to things like autonomous cars and EV. Hopefully the new guy Hackett will better allocate and balance these areas. Wall Street has recently turned positive on the new leadership, but then they can get it wrong a lot too I suppose.

ab348

I haven't been too impressed with what I've seen from Hackett so far.

akirby

Fields threw away everything Mulally did and went back to the old ways of making yourself look better instead of doing what’s right for the company and he allowed others under him to do the same. He was hoarding cash and cutting costs like crazy for an anticipated market downturn that never happened.

Hackett is the one who got these new products back on track starting with the new Explorer and Aviator which are on a new hybrid capable RWD platform (CD6). I think we see Aviator at the NY auto show and Explorer won’t be far behind - should both be here next year.

I think the Fusion decision has more to do with factory capacity than anything else - and the presumably lower margins and increased competition just make that decision easier.

stickguy

still seems to me that if you want to be a major player, you at least need to cover all the segments. Can't cost that much to have a couple sizes of the same sedan platform. Even 150-200K units is pretty substantial, and keeps all those sedan buyers "in the family". Plus, they are really just a variant of a CUV at this point.

akirby

That’s why I think this is temporary and we’ll see a new Fusion a some point. Ford’s current sales are already 78% trucks, vans and utilities and we know cars are shrinking and utilities are growing.

berri

...well, until the Sunni's, Shia, Kurds and Israeli get into it at least

ab348

Well, the reports this week are that more than just the Fusion are going away. Also the Lincoln MKZ and Continental. That would leave Lincoln only with utility vehicles and no sedans at all.

stickguy

the MKZ makes sense. Surprised though on the Continental after just a couple of years. Seems odd. Though I am sure it sells in a trickle.

berri

May have not mattered, but I don't think you can price a Continental, or Caddy for that matter, like a MB, even if they are similar. Most of the market will default German in that situation.

roadburner

berri said:

May have not mattered, but I don't think you can price a Continental, or Caddy for that matter, like a MB, even if they are similar. Most of the market will default German in that situation.

I agree; especially in the case of Lincoln, which doesn't have any models that can compete with the Germans. In the case of Cadillac, the ATS and CTS are extremely competitive with the Germans, and Cadillac decided to price them accordingly. The problem is, while the cars are great, potential buyers have yet to get the memo. Cadillac should have taken a page out of the Lexus playbook and priced the cars considerably below their competition and then gradually increase prices as the perception began to coincide with reality.

Mr_Shiftright

That's true. I think originally the Lexus LS400 was a full $10K below the equivalent Benz.

nyccarguy

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's true. I think originally the Lexus LS400 was a full $10K below the equivalent Benz.

I thought (and could be mistaken) that it was S Class Sized (well, it was the 420 SEL or 560 SEL) at an E Class Price (it was the 300E, #00D, & 300E 2.6).

Mr_Shiftright

I don't recall the exact marketing strategy or staging, but whatever it was, it worked! Benz got kicked back hard on its heels with the new Lexus. It didn't have the driving dynamics of a Benz but many buyers didn't care. They wanted the lux and the Toyota reliability and associated lower maintenance costs.

akirby

Ford only mentioned the Ford brand - they didn’t mention anything about Lincoln. I think MKZ and Continental will survive but be moved to the new CD6 platform.

akirby

The folks saying Continental is dead are basing that on cancelling the current CD4 version and Ford’s announcement of only having 2 cars going forward (Mustang and Focus). But I don’t think Lincoln will get by with only Utilities.

Mr_Shiftright

I dunno. They sure put a lot of thought and effort and design skills into the new Navigator. This is a very competitive vehicle for the high-end lux SUV market.

berri

Yeah, seems like it will pull some Escalade buyers if they compare.

explorerx4

I read(on the net, so take with a grain of salt), that GM's high end SUV's are getting IRS, like Ford has had for the past 15 years. And mid size sedans.

explorerx4

New Accord story.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/mark-phelan/2018/03/16/new-honda-accord-2019/431038002/

thebean

When I sat in a new Accord while mine was in service, I thought it was too low.  Pretty near as low as the wife's Civic.  That would be a deal breaker for me, as I get older and more decrepit.  

berri

The new Camry is low too. It also has reduced headroom from the prior one. Don't care for either one because of those issues.

benjaminh

Even though it's a better car, the Accord is falling way behind the Camry in sales.

Although some like it, I still think the styling of the Accord is strange. The front just looks odd imho with the "buck tooth" chrome. And the rear is strange too.

Honda nailed it with the Civic, but the Accord is flopping.

But with that sales failure my guess is that good finance deals and incentives might be possible.

I also wonder if the next Acura TLX, based on the Accord, might possibly fix some of the Accord's flaws. For instance, the blind spot in the new Accord behind the driver might be fixed with a Hofmeister kink....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofmeister_kink

If it could be had at a bargain price, we might consider trading in my wife's 2013 Accord EXL-navi for a 2018 Accord Hybrid.

But bargain prices were not what Honda had in mind when it invested what must have been billions of dollars in this all-new Accord.

stickguy

honda seems content to sell a few less but for better prices. Instead of cheap selling by loading on incentives.

Mr_Shiftright

berri said:

Yeah, seems like it will pull some Escalade buyers if they compare.

I think the Infiniti QX80, the Toyota Land Cruiser and the Mercedes GLS are also vulnerable. I don't know if Range Rover buyers would move to a Lincoln, and it's hard to dislodge a Lexus buyer.

akirby

The new Aviator is purported to have a lot of Range Rover styling cues and would probably be a better Range Rover competitor.

Mr_Shiftright

Man, everyone is piling out of sedans. Why do those 5 or 6 people want to go everywhere in a large tank?

tjc78

Because we all carry too much junk. Case in point, today we had a birthday party for my son at a venue. We wouldn’t have fit all the stuff we took home in a sedan. Well... maybe if I still had my Grand Marquis but certainly not a typical midsize car.

As much as I’d like to have two cars, for now it’s one large SUV and a smaller car.

roadburner

My wife and I are still more than happy with our "small" cars. No kids makes things a LOT easier...

tjc78

Without kids there would never be an SUV. No way!

stickguy

once we were down to one kid ditched the Minivan for the RDX. Once the baby graduates college in 2 months, and is off on her own, I could even downsize from that. Won't go too much smaller, but will definitely always have some sort of box in the family fleet.

fushigi

There are plenty of reasons for SUV/CUV success beyond us carrying too much junk. Most of this applies to minivans as well.
- Easier entry/exit with more in-cabin head room and higher driving position / improved front visibility
- No trunk lid hitting your head when loading/unloading cargo; higher cargo floor lets you load/unload with less back strain
- Yes, they can usually haul more, which is good in the age of Costco
- AWD availability, usually with only 1 MPG penalty and overall fuel economy is not bad
- People, appropriately, are less concerned about things like cornering capability as it doesn't really impact their daily driving but having a more composed ride over deteriorating roads & rail crossings does
- Driving aids like TCS and anti-roll meet/exceed consumer safety requirements

Even my wife, who has been firmly in the sedan camp, has decided to also consider a small CUV.

m6user

I agree with everything fushigi said above except the 1 mpg penalty and the wife’s attitude towards suv/Cuvs. She had a truck based SUV once and hated the way it handled. I try to tell her that the car based cuvs drive totally different but she is set in her ways. On the mpg front, most cuvs will get 3 to 4 mpg less than a sedan with similar engine. But imo that still is not bad at all when you consider awd and hauling and towing capacity.

I’m looking at the new redesigned 2019 RDX. She’s staying with her Mazda6.

berri

I think the big sedan advantage of fuel is because you go 4 banger in many and still get good performance. I also think this Accord/Camry lowering thing if it continues to move to cars may well speed up their demise. Most go crossover to get better step in height and visibility. The lowered sedan is counter to those preferences and I'm not sure there really are those many people looking for sedans with Mustang style ergonomics.

stickguy

I think the MPG penalty is probably more in the 5 MPG range. Varies a bit by model. And that is assume the same basic 4 cyl (which, usually, will have better acceleration in the sedan). Compare a CX5 and Mazda 6 with the same 2.5l 4.

otherwise, he nailed the benefits. And no matter how nice a sedan is, you aren't getting the big open box when you need it (good luck putting a dishwasher sized item in your Accord!).

also true that newer CUVs like the CRV do drive like cars. Maybe not quite as sharp handling, but pretty close.

And don't discount the tire issue. The way companies keep making car wheels bigger and sidewalls smaller is an issue in areas like mine, where the roads are mine fields.

I actually had to take the RDX yesterday instead of my Elantra. I had to go to an animal shelter that was had a dirt road driveway. It was so potholed that I was creeping the RDX with the giant sidewalls through the slalom (couldn't miss them all). Not sure the Elantra would have survived the trip. 235/60 is a lotta sidewall to cushion the blow! 225/40, isn't

explorerx4

Last fall we were visiting one of our kids and bought a knocked down bookcase.
Camry we rented had fold open rear seat, but because the seats wouldn't fold flat, couldn't fit it inside.
Went back and used the kids' 2013 Escape instead. It easily fit inside. folding down one of the seats.
An Escape is probably shorter than a Corolla, never mind a Camry.

berri

We've got an '11 CRV that easily holds as much, if not a bit more than our '99 Explorer did. Extremely efficient packaging. Sounds like your Escape may be similar. Not as much trunk length, but overall an awful lot of cargo room for a vehicle that size.

suydam

Ditto for our even smaller Encore.

ab348

You guys haul all the flat-pack stuff and Costco-sized packages you want, just stay in the right lane and wave when I whiz past you chugging along when I'm out in my sporty car.

akirby

My F150 has 470 lb/ft of torque. You might need to stay out of MY way!

stickguy

my RDX doesn't have to pull over for many sedans if it doesn't want to.

andres3

akirby said:

My F150 has 470 lb/ft of torque. You might need to stay out of MY way!

Funny, I've seen some pickup trucks driven quite fast on curvy roads. I'm talking faster than a Nissan 350Z I witnessed before. Not the same driver, of course, but still an example of perhaps a "local" knowing the road and not dawdling along.

roadburner

andres3 said:

akirby said:

My F150 has 470 lb/ft of torque. You might need to stay out of MY way!

Funny, I've seen some pickup trucks driven quite fast on curvy roads. I'm talking faster than a Nissan 350Z I witnessed before. Not the same driver, of course, but still an example of perhaps a "local" knowing the road and not dawdling along.

Several years ago I was taking my old Pathfinder SE around a long on-ramp at a "brisk" rate of speed and almost ran over a WRX that was puttering along.
Go figure...

andres3

roadburner said:

andres3 said:

akirby said:

My F150 has 470 lb/ft of torque. You might need to stay out of MY way!

Funny, I've seen some pickup trucks driven quite fast on curvy roads. I'm talking faster than a Nissan 350Z I witnessed before. Not the same driver, of course, but still an example of perhaps a "local" knowing the road and not dawdling along.

Several years ago I was taking my old Pathfinder SE around a long on-ramp at a "brisk" rate of speed and almost ran over a WRX that was puttering along.
Go figure...

That reminded me of a test drive where I was impeded by a BMW sedan with X-drive on a inner-change ramp. They were going very slow.

roadburner

When I would take customers on test drives I'd use a route that had a sharp 90 degree right followed by an equally tight left. I could take them at 40 mph with no tire squeal or other drama but 9 out of 10 drivers would slow down to 20 mph or less...

akirby

I was at a traffic light with 2 lanes that went to 1 lane just past the intersection. A guy in a bmw 328i sedan is in the right lane and I could tell he was going to gun it to get in front of me. So I chirped the tires when the light goes green but backed off. My wife says “you can’t outrun that car”. I said are you kidding? A 328i is not that fast. My F150 has 200 more lb/ft and probably 3 times as much off the line. She was not impressed.

roadburner

An E90 328i is slow- 0-60 in around 6 seconds. However, the F30 328i makes it to 60 in under 5.4 seconds; no rocket ship, but a bit quicker than average for the segment...

andres3

So the 2018 Outback Banner on this page I'm seeing right now says 8.7" of ground clearance standard AWD. Is it just me, am I mis-remembering, or wasn't it 9.1" in 2016 or 2017? I don't know about you, but I don't want to lose 0.4" every year.

Michaell

andres3 said:

So the 2018 Outback Banner on this page I'm seeing right now says 8.7" of ground clearance standard AWD. Is it just me, am I mis-remembering, or wasn't it 9.1" in 2016 or 2017? I don't know about you, but I don't want to lose 0.4" every year.

No, it's always been that number - 8.x". Ours is a 2015 - first year of the latest generation (2018 was a cosmetic refresh, by and large).

Enough for unplowed roads and the occasional unpaved road.

benjaminh

The 2018 Accord, as mentioned, has been a major sales disappointment—I think mainly because of the strange styling, front, side, and rear.

I don't think it'll turn things around much, but just this week the last variant of the 2018 Accord, the Accord Hybrid, finally went on sale. Compared to the 2017 Accord Hybrid, the base 2018 Accord Hybrid has been cut in price by more than $4000. The entry-level Accord Hybrid now has an msrp of $25,100, which is only 1500 more than the LX. Since the hybrid gets c. 47 mpg combined, compared to the c. 33 of the regular Accord, you'll probably save c. $350 a year in gas, making the payback time for the hybrid c. 4 years rather than c.10 for the last generation.

Another potential reason to get the Hybrid would actually be performance, since it's more powerful and should be faster from 0-60 than 1.5 turbo.

The hybrid also gets other features beyond the LX, including upgraded V-rated tires, nicer alloys, smart entry/walk-away lock, remote start, 60/40 split folding rear seat, lighted window switches, etc.

But for me and my wife, AndroidAuto is a must for any new car, and for that you need to go to the Hybrid EX, which lists for $28,890. That adds AndroidAuto, blind spot monitoring, moonroof, heated seats, better stereo with XM, power driver's seat, heated mirrors, led fog lights, hondalink, etc. But still, it's almost 4k more, although again, only about 1500 more than the regular EX.