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CR doesn't agree with you that the gap has closed. Until CR agrees, I don't agree. Dodge claimed they weren't the "old" Dodge back in 1994. They were the NEW Dodge in 1994. Who's to say that Chrysler is now "new" again in 2007? How many times can you become "new and improved?"
Reminds me of the lousy taco shop in my neighborhood. I think they've changed their name yearly in the 5 years I've been in San Diego. They have poor food quality and taste, but I went to try them again the 2nd time because they changed their name. It was terrible (and quite similar) the second time. I didn't fall for the trick the 3rd and 4th time, but its a good marketing ploy.
The domestics can always change names and models but the "heart" of the matter will never change.
Like I said, one way to do it is to back it up with a warranty that has a graduated penalty assessment for warranty visits.
10 year/100K mile bumper to bumper/drivetrain included warranty, with payment penalties of $50 for the second warranty vist, $100 for the third, $200 for the fourth, and so on, furthermore with rental car coverage for all of those visits.
CR said the Fusion is more reliable than the Camry and Accord. Do you agree?
Also, I don't know they said it was MORE reliable, just that it was very reliable it's first year.
I have a feeling the engineer's at Ford have figured out how to make something extremely reliable for the 3 years it is under warranty, and then BOOM, the makeup washes off and you have a junker on your hands.
That is the rumor. Supposedly it delivers a modest power boost but much better fuel mileage. The 4 cylinder will be a new 2.4L unit (again with better FE) while the performance option will be a 2.5L Twin Turbo gasoline direct injection engine producing 260 hp but delivering 30% better FE than the comparable output 3.5L duratec.
The issue with the 3.5 is supply. They need all they can make right now for the Taurus/Sable/TaurusX/Edge/MKX/MKZ. That's over 300K units right there. The Fulans would add another 100K to that. You can't just tool up an engine factory overnight.
It will work, it would work, I'd become a customer afterall and I'm one of the most diehard "I'll never buy domestic again!" pissed off customers I know!
I think I might become a millionaire off of the graduated warranty payment plan by buying a domestic, so I'll be first in line!
Also, I don't know they said it was MORE reliable, just that it was very reliable it's first year.
They specifically said the Fusion was MORE reliable than both Camrys and the Accord V6, and just as reliable as the Accord I4.
You obviously haven't experienced a new Ford lately because you have no idea what you're talking about and no facts to back it up.
MIGHT?????
Also, I don't know they said it was MORE reliable, just that it was very reliable it's first year.
I have a feeling the engineer's at Ford have figured out how to make something extremely reliable for the 3 years it is under warranty, and then BOOM, the makeup washes off and you have a junker on your hands.
C'mon andres, you've got to give credit where credit is due. Ford Fusion's reliability rating was higher than that of Camry or Accord. That's published fact. Will it continue? Who knows. Will Honda's continue to be high with the '08 model year, or will it have issues like the 2003s (V6 tranny, Stereo Display come to mind)...? Who knows. The point is Ford came out with a brand new car and had virtually no teething problems. Honda and Toyota can't say the same for their latest "new-for 20XX" midsize models.
Do I drive a Fusion? Nope. I really disliked the interior and fuel economy vs. horsepower tradeoff. I'm a Honda guy. I drive two different Accords and love them both.
The writing is on the wall and can't be ignored (although some are proving that statement wrong), and it says that Ford has built a reliable product in the Fusion.
And that is how decisions to buy one of these mid-sizers should be made now. Can people like andres3, or some that are a little less bitter if you will
That is the rumor.
Ohh, and it would have to be manufactured in Dearborn MI, that way it could be the Fulan Rouge
That joke was so corny I could shuck it!
This is the difference between being a midsize sedan customer and being a Honda customer. Many users of this forum are midsize sedan customers, while a few are Honda customers.
No shame in that, just changes the perspective of the discussion.
What does that make me?
What does that make me?
Hmm there is an easy test for this. When you were looking for your last car, what vehicles did you consider (*)? If the only vehicles you considered were Japanese and had an H on the grill and trunk, then you are a Honda customer.
If you considered vehicles from a number of manufacturers in the category of mid size vehicles, then you are a mid size sedan customer.
(*) Making zainy demands on manufacturers of vehicles under the guise of acting like you considered them does not imply they were truly considered.
I guess I'm normal then, huh?
the facts, at least in terms of these multiple reviews and tests by a number of folks that likely know and drive many more cars than I, are exactly what I report along with any personal impressions I get on my own (which are duly noted as such). I don't 'hate' Ford, at all although I firmly believe that they will never be a 'player' in this particular market until they learn how to build a smaller engine.
As far as:
It's obvious the DT3.5L has a lot more potential in both refinement, power and fuel economy than what we saw in the 07 models
Don't know of many folks that are willing to pay much for 'potential' when they can already have those expectations fulfilled by something else. What are you expecting folks to do, go out and spend $25-30k for 'potential' or just spend it because they happen to like blue ovalled logos?
Ohhh man ... must resist comment...arrggg can't type what thinking...
j/k
I really was kind of asking for it with a comment like that though, wasn't I?
One of which is a one year report card does not a reliable car make! I agree, the Fusion is impressive for a domestic, very impressive in it's first year. However, even my domestic lemon was actually more sweet than sour in it's first year. I believe its year 3 through 4 that are most telling in a vehicle; more than any other year. The Fusion however, shows strong signs of doing well, only time will tell however. You canNOT equate one good year with decades of Accord and Camry "legendary" reliability.
Also, the interior that isn't in the same ballpark and the lower horsepower and gas mileage don't help matters.
Some people might be willing to take the plunge after one "turnaround year," but I'm not one of them with Ford's weak warranty; I'd rather get a GM! :P
I think its perfectly legitimate to make your demands, requirements, and requests known, and if the manufacturer denies them, then the manufacturer has failed to consider potentially good customers and it is not the customer who has not legitimately "considered" that manufacturer's products.
I demand Chrysler deduct the purchase price of my lemon bought in 1994 (95 model) from any future Chrysler purchase. I think this is more than reasonable and fair, since I'm not charging interest, tow trucks, nor repair costs; just the purchase price. If the answer is no, then there will be no future purchase for them from me.
It's quite simple really.
Now all Ford or GM have to do is beef up the warranty and offer a payment plan when I have to use that warranty too much and too often.
If they are so great now, why can't they do this?
I bet the Camry owners with sludged engines thought the same thing. Same for the 07 Camry and Honda/Acura transmission problems. Face it - Camcords are no longer bulletproof.
As for 4-5 yr reliability:
90 Ranger - 5 years
95 Ranger - 5 years
00 Lincoln LS - 6 years
99 Expedition - 5 years
All 4 Vehicles were kept 2 years beyond the factory warranty. I never spent a single dime on repairs outside of regular maintenance. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.
I guess now you'll say that they start falling apart in year 7.
I will agree that the current Fusion interior is not as nice as the Camcords, especially the center stack but that is being addressed for the 09 model. And Fuel Economy is way behind the competition. We'll see if that gets addressed for 09.
The differences you're referring to are only important to a small handful of enthusiasts, most of whom wouldn't buy a Fusion anyway. The Fusion isn't getting the 3.5L anyway so it's a moot point here.
My wife and I decided on a Ford Fusion last December because of its style and handling; its creature features; its high ratings in Consumer Reports, J.D. Power and Associates and other respected publications.
We also had enjoyed relatively good performance from two other Ford products, a 1997 Thunderbird with 85,000 miles on the clock and a 2000 Focus station wagon with 92,000 miles on the odometer.
We also have a super Ford, Lincoln, Mercury dealer in town and got a fair -- but not sensational -- deal on a 2007 SEL AWD V6 Fusion.
Except for poor in-city gas mileage -- a constant 14.8 mpg -- the Fusion has been perfect for seven months and 3,700 miles. The longest journey begins with a single step.
Despite all that, the legions of passionate Honda owners on this forum make me wonder if we made a mistake. I don't think so at this juncture but the thought has entered my mind.
I would never buy a Toyota because of the oil sludge debacle, a much worse scenario than the Ford Explorer's Firestone tires fiasco. Honda, on the other hand, has not been smitten by any major malfunctions and I know for certain that a 2007 Accord is going to be worth significantly more than our 2007 Fusion in three years.
As good as the Fusion might be, I just don't see Ford, GM, Chrysler, Subaru, Nissan or anyone else dethroning Camry and Accord. It just ain't gonna happen. Camry and Honda owners are just too loyal (except for the sludge owners maybe).
90 Ranger - 5 years
95 Ranger - 5 years
00 Lincoln LS - 6 years
99 Expedition - 5 years
I noticed you didn't mention mileage; you drive 3K a year?
I think the biggest threat to Honda and Toyota is likely themselves. I think many people would back me up on that. Honda and Toyota owners are loyal, and until those companies do something to betray that trust, many will stay loyal to that.
However, due to the small amount of issues with my '03 Accord, I was unhappy with some of the service dept. employees and having to deal with them with my US built Accord. I was dissatisfied at having to visit the dealer more than zero times, let alone the half dozen or so times I had to go; mainly due to window moldings that they never had parts for, and then the big one being the tranny recall fix then failure soon thereafter.
Honda dealt with me superbly and honored the vehicle by paying for everything, even after warranty. They even paid for the rental car with the embarrassing tranny debacle.
Even with all that.... I currently most recently purchased a 2006 Audi A3 DSG Sport 2.0!
Did I switch brands because Honda's lack of bulletproof (US Built cars) turned me off? Or did I simply switch because Honda refuses to currently make a hatchback/sportback type car thats bigger than a Mini?
Probably a little of both, and the fact I wanted something new and the redesign wasn't ready yet.
Now some say that Audi is the German Subaru, or is it Subaru is the Japanese Audi :P .
Next time I go car shopping I'll include many considerations; especially Subaru with their stellar reliability; although in 20K miles the A3 has been mechanically and electrically flawless.
When I chose the A3 I considered the Altima, A4, Camry, RAV4, 3 Series, Mazda 3, Mazda 6, Accord, Civic SI, GTI, GLI, TSX, TL (sort of; a bit out of my price range).
I actually test drove the RAV4, Mazda3. I looked in and touched and studied in person the 3 Series, GTI, TSX, and TL. (Test drove 3 year old 325 BMW too if that counts; not impressed with the 2.5 gutless inline 6).
Why fix what ain't broke!!??
I'd rather put my money where I know I'll consistently win and I'm going to win for sure, then gamble big-time and lose more then once and look like a fool twice! :sick:
Please compare the features and attributes of the actual vehicles in this class and please stop trying to beat others over the head with your own personal preferences/choices in this category.
Many of you seem to forget that the bottom line purpose of this discussion is to help those who are trying to make a purchase decision in this class. The purpose really isn't to engage in verbal fisticuffs with those who have different thoughts and priorities.
Let's try talking about the actual cars without worrying about defending them and putting down those who like something different, okay? It's worth a try.
Take your favorite car in this segment and tell us one thing you think has been done very well and then tell us one thing where you think an improvement is needed.
Just try it...
Honda Accord
Pros
-Excellent power/fuel economy ratio (especially 4-cyl)
-Sporty but not jarring handling
-Uptown interior appointments
Cons
-Exterior styling (2003-2005 was worse than 06-07, but its still no beauty queen today)
-Road noise
-You can't drive two blocks without seeing one
Sorry, I couldn't stop at just one.
And yes, I have Accords, and love them.
Favorite thing: Honyota-like quality for a bargain price.
Needs improvement: Offer ABS and ESC as standard equipment, or at least as easily-available, low-cost options.
Pros..
Handling
Style
Tidier dimensions (for me, anyway)
Braking
Interior comfort.
Nifty split folding seats.
Cons...
Low power/MPG ratio
turning radius
some weird HVAC/radio control
Is Mazda the LAST manufacturer to not illuminate the door switches?
Thoroughly modern, comfortable midsize sedan with appealing, distinctive styling.
Needs improvement:
AWD V6 gets atrocious in-city mileage, a constant 14.8 mpg.
Did you know that the 3 Series you considered does not have an oil dipstick? You cannot check your oil...you have to rely upon an idiot light.
pros of the Mazda6
- it's dual nature: can be quiet and composed but can also become extroverted and engaging when you want. the 6 can be extremely practical (especially in the hatch and wagon versions) while also being very indulgent.
- thoughtful and unique engineering: things like having the volume of the stereo adjust itself automatically as the car goes faster or slower and the levers in the trunk that with a simple pull, the 60/40 seats spring forward when you need to transport some bigger items.
cons:
lots of brakedust requires frequent cleaning of the wheels to keep them looking decent
armrests on the doors are too hard
turning radius is a bit large
no mp3/ auxilary input (easily fixed by aftermarket though)
gauges and center console display needs a redesign - they don't look bad, but for a car with lots of charisma everwhere else, this area needs some attention.
Likes:
Solid, and stable at any speed. Power to spare. Rides, and handles very well.
Dislikes:
Could use more rear seat space. Stock tires are not very good for anything but high mileage.
Regards:
OldCEM
Regards:
OldCEM
Pros:
Comfortable on trips
Decent Trunk
Decent power with 2.7V6
Great fuel economy
Cheap to buy even considering horrid depreciation.
Makes driving its stablemate even more enjoyable(Its European).
I'm on a first name basis with the dealer's service manager and the zone rep.
Current Sebring has convinced me not to buy another one. Probably go with Fusion or Mazda 6 next go around.
Cons:
Transmission sounds like an electric can-opener at low speeds.
Plan on numerous trips to dealer in first 30K miles to get gremlins out.
Depreciates like a brick falling from sky. Must time purchase decision with max rebates and 0% financing.
Regards:
OldCEM
I think the Mazda6 is the best looking of these moderately priced midsize cars. I list that not because stying is the most important factor, but it is one where, imo, this car really stands out.
and then tell us one thing where you think an improvement is needed:
It should have extendable sun visors to block the sun when it is coming in the side window. The lack of this feature is a minor irritation, what would it have cost to include them an extra $10???
My wife and I felt exactly the same way about the Fusion.
Pros:
-Love the styling of my 05 (looks better than 02-04s & 07)
-V6 like power in a four cylinder engine
-All that room inside
Cons:
-Some cheap materials (But WAY better than 02-04 models)
-Gruff, unrefined sounding I4 when pushed hard.
-MPG not great
LX: Top safety and convenience features offered with outstanding LX value and quality
LX standard features include:
Power windows, doorlocks and door mirrors
6 speaker AM/FM/CD audio now with steering wheel mounted audio controls
Cruise Control
Front, side and side curtain airbags
LX-P: Adds premium comfort and styling features to LX value
LX-P features added to LX include:
Alloy wheels
8-way power diver’s seat
Security System
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EX: Upgraded from the LX trims with sporty and premium features
EX features added to LX-P include:
Power Moonroof
In-dash 6CD changer
Premium interior trim
Premium cloth seats
Upgraded alloy wheels
Heated mirrors
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EX-L: The most premium version of the EX trim
EX-L features added to EX include:
Leather seating surfaces and steering wheel
Premium audio system with XM
Heated seats
Dual zone climate control system
Available navigation system with Bluetooth
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Accord 6-Cylinder Sedan
EX: Upscale and sophisticated V6 sedan
EX V6 features include:
Power Moonroof
Power windows, doorlocks and door mirrors
6 speaker AM/FM/6CD audio with steering wheel mounted audio controls
Cruise Control
Front, side and side curtain airbags
Upgraded alloy wheels
Premium cloth seats
8-way power diver’s seat
Security System
Premium interior trim
Heated mirrors
Dual exhaust finishers
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EX-L V6: The most luxurious Accord
EX-L V6 features added to EX V6 include:
Leather seating surfaces and steering wheel
Premium audio system with XM
4-way Power passenger’s seat
Heated seats
Dual zone climate control system
Homelink system
Available navigation system with Bluetooth
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accord 4-Cylinder Coupe
LX-S: Sporty features offered with outstanding LX value and quality
LX-S standard features include:
Power windows, doorlocks and door mirrors
Alloy wheels
6 speaker AM/FM/6CD audio with steering wheel mounted audio controls
Cruise Control
Security System
Front, side and side curtain airbags
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EX: Upgraded from the LX-S trims with sporty and premium features
EX features added to LX-S include:
Power Moonroof
Premium audio system
Premium interior trim
Premium cloth seats
Heated mirrors
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EX-L: The most premium version of the EX trim
EX-L features added to EX include:
Leather seating surfaces and steering wheel
XM
8-way power diver’s seat
Heated seats
Dual zone climate control system
Available navigation system with Bluetooth
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accord 6-Cylinder Coupe
EX-L V6: Powerful and upscale sports coupe
EX-L V6 features include:
Leather seating surfaces and steering wheel
Power Moonroof
Dual zone climate control system
Premium audio system with XM
Upgraded alloy wheels
8-way power diver’s seat
Power windows, doorlocks and door mirrors
Cruise Control
Front, side and side curtain airbags
Security System
Premium interior trim
Heated seats and mirrors
Homelink system
Dual exhaust finishers
Available navigation system with Bluetooth
I'm disappointed in a lack of features though seeing as the Accord is Honda's flagship sedan. The Camry and even the Altima have some features that this "flagship" is missing yet the CamTima aren't flagships.
For example, I would have liked bluetooth at least standard on EX-L models but it appears you have to get the Navigation system to get it. Push button start would have been neat as well, to some it's a gimmick but i really like it. I drive a truck now (lol..from college student to car salesman to truck driver) and my truck as push button start...it's kinda neat. What about a rearview Camera with Nav. system? Steering wheel climate controls (Camry and Fusion have those on top level trims) reclining rear seats?
Power adjustable pedals? Rear audio controls?
It appears that equipment levels really aren't changing and that the LX-P is really nothing more than an SE with a power driver's seat. Wouldn't Honda's whole claim of being the "most luxurious" sedan in the class be false, seeing as both the Camry and Altima at current levels seem to offer more than the Accord will? The list is just preliminary, but I would think if some stand out features were coming they'd be mentioned. For example, rain-sensing wipers..they don't appear to be there.