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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    " However, I wouldn't mind to recommend Fusion to anyone that wants a "relatively" inexpensive midsize yet offers good quality fit-n'-finish and decent performance."

    Forgot to add above average reliability and one heck of a value!.. ;)

    No, really.. I have never claimed the Fusion/Milan to be the best vehicle around. I do however claim both of these vehicles deserve a look and a test drive and a serious consideration when shopping.. :)
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    "I'm simply tired of people making negative statements without any basis in fact just because they don't like Ford."

    ME TOO.. Can you tell?? ;)
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    If I had to choose between the Camry and Accord, I would have to choose the Accord. I just can't get over that frontend of the Camry.. its just plain weird looking.. Once again.. OPINION... before all the Camry owners come unglued...
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    I test drove both and I felt the Sonata would be a 9, Camry a 10...
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    really?! you'd put the camry on the same handling level as the Accord?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,062
    So, to paraphrase your answer - HP isn't important for the majority of midsize sedan buyers.

    Exactly my point.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    you'd put the camry on the same handling level as the Accord?

    I've owned both and their handling attributes are diametically opposite. The Camry has a looser, dampened suspension that provides minimal road feedback, but also isolates the driver from the road.

    The Accord is a tighter set up. More of a go-cart feel. Yea - you feel at lot more of the road but you also are more tuned in to the drive of the car. Steering feels more direct too. The 4 cyl engine (awesome) seems to redline quicker than the Camry.

    I prefer the Accord's attributes. Maybe when I join AARP that'll change, but ya gotta hang on to those vestiges of youth.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I didn't say that all - but I will agree that unfortunately many buyers treat the V6 as a generic item in a midsize sedan - a serious mistake IMO there are a few in this group that only meet the definition, and there are others that are really good sophisticated engines. A car enthusiast will know, understand and appreciate the differences, your 'majority of midsize sedan buyers' are really wanting only a good reliable appliance - there is nothing wrong with that. In my own case, I would enjoy a good 4 banger (Honda's comes to mind) long before I could tolerate a DT or one of those GM pushrods. Different strokes for different folks, but your inference seems to be that since the Fusion sells more V6s than Honda it must somehow be better (or at least equal to) - a ludricrous stretch because there is simply no comparison in power, efficiency and/or refinement -it is only a function of how cheap the Fusion is relative to the Accord. The Sonata is the one that is at least in the same neighborhood in that respect and they too sell far more V6s again as a function of how cheap they are. Give me a choice between a Sonata and a Fusion, the Sonata gets my bucks - Hyundai has been doing some good things lately.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    but your inference seems to be that since the Fusion sells more V6s than Honda it must somehow be better (or at least equal to)

    Um, he can speak for himself, but what I thought he was saying was simply that there are a lot of people who don't care (or don't even know) that the Fusion's hp is less than the other two.

    Now can we get off this merry-go-round? I'm getting dizzy. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    no, the average buyer won't really notice that extra second or so - but he/she should notice how it feels and sounds getting there as well as the few bucks they likely save at the pumps, and they would also likely notice that the Camcord is probably worth that same $3-5k more at trade-in time. More truth to the adage that 'you do get what you pay for (or don't pay for).'
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I was referencing post 1935 actually.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,469
    "...but if you look at the 0-60 numbers.. I really don't think the average car buyer is really going to notice 1 second.. ya think?"

    If they won't notice that V-6 A is a second slower than V-6 B, they probly won't notice V-6 A is a second faster than 4-cyl B. So why bother with the V-6 at all?

    See how I didn't bash any brand. ;)

    The whole HP numbers game just plays into the the marketing depts. They want you to care about HP so they can create a demand and hence more profit.

    Look at a Lotus Elise. It will embarass most any car on the road - with a Toyota 4-cylinder engine. HP is not all that matters.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Look at a Lotus Elise. It will embarass most any car on the road - with a Toyota 4-cylinder engine.

    You mean the midsize sedan called the Lotus Elise? Actually a 4cyl S2000 will easily embarass a Lotus Elise.

    High HP while maintaining decent fuel economy is what most of these cars offer.
  • mayberryguymayberryguy Posts: 145
    Ford is definitely leading the engineering effort for AWD. At least give them credit for that.

    I think Subaru should get the nod for AWD engineering in this class. Ford is a little late to the party in comparison to Subaru.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    But to point, an S2000 engine in a Honda Accord would be "negatory" good buddy. The S2000 engine makes no torque, but has high revs. In the S2000 it's great, the same engine in the Accord would be a disaster.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Has anyone seen this article yet?

    Definitely a gutsy move by Saturn...
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    That sure is a lot of confidence. As you said, Ghost, gutsy.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Good for them. GM is really trying to reinvent itself bit by bit and climb out of the hole they are in. Ford, OTOH...

    I give for a decade before it's also sold off like Chrysler was.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    I give for a decade before it's also sold off like Chrysler was.

    I fear that you may be correct but I hope that is not the case.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,062
    Sounds like GM's version of the Ford Challenge. Good for them.

    Everything that's wrong with Ford is being addressed by Fields and Mullaly. So far they've made the right decisions for Ford's long term health. No reason to think they won't keep it up.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Definitely a gutsy move by Saturn...

    Not really, considering a huge amount of the CamCord's appeal is from its reputation as a long term pleaser, and the showroom can downplay or mute this trait.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,079
    To me, this seems like a HUGE risk. I would never consider an Aura over an Accord or Camry. I recognize that this decision is not based on objective qualities, but on personal experience and bias.

    I am so biased that it would take either a giant price difference or some super-surprising features and possibly a much longer warranty to sway me. I cannot imagine changing my mind. Perhaps they so strongly believe in their product that they think a side-by-side could make me consider the Aura?

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  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    In my opinion this is an excellent move by Saturn, and I suspect they will see some increase in sales as a result.

    This is light years ahead of the "Fusion Challenge" because I beleive this will actually get some more people into Saturn showrooms (heck, I have one a mile away that I've never been to, and I'm thinking about going just to check out the spectacle).
    You've got the fairly basic models of all three cars, comparable in *sticker* price (the one flaw is that Saturn won't budge wheras the Japanese usually will), and they can showcase all of the awards the Aura has.

    Plus if they really do "pamper" the customers I'm thinking it will get some people all worked up. Additionally, unlike the Fusion challenge, the people who get all excited during the test drives will actually be able to buy an Aura right then before the excited feeling wears off.

    I've never driven an Aura; I'll report my experience.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Bingo! You hit the nail on the head and that is my thinking also. I am biased for a reason however, and am entitled to war those those biases proudly.

    Unless someone wants to give me a car, I intend on keeping those biases. :surprise
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    gutsy, but not a surprise. one problem you have when your at the top, everybody is gunning for you. Ford, Nissan, GM, Chrysler, Hundai, ect are all tageting 2 vehicles. the accord and the camry.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Like people won't smell a setup here. They can do all sorts of things to the Camry and Accord to make them seem less appealing. 1. loosen a few screws here and there to create some rattles. 2. Disconnect an O2 sensor, so the Check engine light comes on. 3. You can bet they won't be using the top of the line models. 4. Whatever models they use will have drastically inflated stickers on the windows. The competitors have been shooting at the Camry and Accord for 15 years or more now, and they will miss the target again with this obvious ploy.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    1. loosen a few screws here and there to create some rattles.

    As much as I love my Hondas, I gotta say I think the factory does this for you :P
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I bet they will be standard models. The idea is clearly one of "look, this car is 90% as good as these - it's a very small difference. But check out the prices - we're thousands less and have aggressive financing specials..."

    It's why Lexus ate into Mercedes sales. Close to the same thing for a lot less money(well, at first... now Lexus is silly money as well)
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    There is absolutely no way they will tamper with the Accord or Camry. That is legal and marketing suicide. If you can get over the hype, and blind brand loyalty, there are reasonable alternatives to an Accord and Camry. I should know, I own both a new Toyota and a new Hyundai, and Accord/Camry fans probably don't want to hear my comments.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    I own both a new Toyota and a new Hyundai, and Accord/Camry fans probably don't want to hear my comments.

    The CamCord fans might not want to hear your comments but this Fusion owner does. Are you going to say the Hyundai is better in some respects? Is it a Sonata?
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