Midsize Sedans 2.0

kdshapiro

Thank you for correct my mis-writing. It has the highest frontal-repair collision cost than most of the cars in this category. Of course it would have the lowest repair cost because items that get fixed under warranty with the Sonota are paid for by let's say Accord owners. But that assumes things break on an Accord. And as another astute host(Shifty) has noted, people don't buy on warranty alone, if they did car sales would be linked to those manufacturers with the highest warranty.

captain2

it makes sure you don't exceed the limits of the vehiclemust, by definition, engage at some level lower than that. Otherwise it wouldn't be a 'safety' system at all, would it?
Furthermore, our individual abilities to properly control a car at its limits will usually deteriorate as we age, meaning that my reactions, eyesight etc. etc. were all better 20 years ago than they are now. I was a more capable driver then, I am a better driver now.
The point being that cars particularly within this category MUST have ESC systems set towards the 'lowest common denominator' driver, that 80-90 year old guy, if you will. Lastly, how else do you explain, reductions in avoidance test capabilities, high speed swerve etc. etc. continually in cars equipped with ESC as opposed to that same car when (and if) the system is turned off. This is becoming a fact of life, so much so that even CR (somebody that obviously would figure to champion systems like this) has begun recognizing in their own tests that stability control does limit cornering/avoidance speed capabilities. Not to mention the enthusiast mags who obviously bump these 'limits' on a regular basis and therefore have coined a term for it - electronic 'nannies'.

This is a dangerous trail we're on, as we encourage some computer nerd and/or liability lawyer determine what you, I and everybody else is capable of behind a steering wheel. You don't suppose that those same lawyers would be lined up for miles when my throttle is cut, my brakes are applied for me etc. (SC system controls are largely passive (not aggressive) in nature) and the car I'm in won't allow me to avoid an accident (ostensibly because IT doesn't think it is safe), while I think (of course) that I could have handled it quite nicely on my own), do you?

backy

I think you have a misconception about this IIHS study on repair costs. It's all about repair costs from different kinds of collisions. So warranties have absolutely nothing to do with it. It also has little to do with out-of-pocket costs, assuming someone has collision insurance with a a deductible under about $750. It could affect those collision insurance costs, of course--the study was done by an insurance industry group, after all.

One of the interesting tidbits in the IIHS report is that some mid-sized cars like the Camry actually did quite poor on certain tests, e.g. the full rear-end test, when you look at how much damage they suffered, but because parts costs are relatively low for the Camry, the cost to repair the damage was not as great as for some cars that suffered less damage.

I agree that people don't buy on warranty alone. I sure don't. But given the choice between two mid-sized cars that meet all of my other requirements, I'll buy the one that has the longer warranty that matches my driving and ownership pattern best.

urnews

But given the choice between two mid-sized cars that meet all of my other requirements, I'll buy the one that has the longer warranty that matches my driving and ownership pattern best.

Does that mean you would choose a Sonata over an Accord, Camry or Fusion?

lilengineerboy

Why do you keep saying this? None of the wheels are totally unloaded unless they're off the pavement. The inside wheels will have a little less weight than the outside wheels in a turn but they are nowhere near "totally unloaded".

Then the vehicle is not cornering at its limit, so having something that intervenes at this point is certainly not raising the handling limits of the vehicle. On a stock, squishy car like the vehicles discussed here, there is enough body roll, weight transfer, and suspension travel that at the limit there is little or no weight on the inside wheels.

I think DSC/ESC *may* improve the capabilities of certain drivers, but electronics can only compensate so much. It's main safety feature is that it applies the brakes so at least the vehicle will be going slower at the point of collision.

maxamillion1

Not sure if they have been posted.

I personally like the 17s on the SEL models better...looks like these alloys come straight off the Edge.

backy

No. My preference for my next new car is one that scores Good/Good/Good on the IIHS crash tests. None of those cars you listed do that as of now. But those 3 X Good's are pretty rare, so I may have to give a little on that requirement. As far as the Accord goes, I don't like certain aspects of it (mainly the feel-every-pebble ride) and it's too pricey in this class. I don't think the Camry is worth the price premium for what you get, and I'm not crazy about the styling. On the Fusion, I prefer the Milan, and I would seriously consider the Milan if I slip my crash test requirement. On the Sonata, I'd like to see what Hyundai comes up with for the 2009 refresh. Right now I prefer the Optima over the Sonata, but the IIHS side impact test for the Optima hasn't been published yet.

andres3

The tranny never quit on me, but it started to display problematic tendancies at 42K. So I had it replaced with a BRAND NEW transmission assembly and it was warranted just like a new car purchase, from the date and mileage at install. So I was covered for another 36K, or in Honda's case of covering problems out of warranty anyway, until 100K for all intent and purposes.

It was an "updated" transmission assembly and had all the updates, and fixes already included. So the defect in the tranny was solved, and there is no worry for another 200K.

andres3

I judged only the 2002 or 2001 Sonata. I assume everyone will say that Hyundai has improved significantly with their Sonata since then, but they were so FAR behind back then in 2002 that they better have improved, or they'd be out of business.

urnews

That's a remarkable account. Does Honda treat all of its customers that well or are you special? What's the rest of the story?

backy

So realize you judged a car that was designed in the mid-'90s and debuted in the U.S. in 1998. Yes, Hyundai has come a LONG way since then. The current Gen 4 Sonata is a much better car than the Gen 3 Sonata.

thegraduate

Yeah... that's a helpful and productive post. :sick:

kdshapiro

Well in a few years this will all be moot. There is no common denominator in DSC, it is how it is programmed, just like every other aspect of the car. Of course, DSC limits cornering, but it also helps avoid spinouts.

The dangerous trail you mention has been this way for many years as almost every one of the systems in the car are programmed, by programmers.

What do you do sue, if a loved one gets into an accident and dies because they turned off DSC and DSC could have saved their life. Do you sue the manufacturer for having an off switch?

kdshapiro

Actually there is no misconception, the Sonota has the highest cost to repair in a front-end collision out of a number other competitors' vehicles.

lilengineerboy

Of course, DSC limits cornering, but it also helps avoid spinouts.

This is exactly my point, it makes the vehicle "safer" for most, poorly trained, inattentive drivers by lowering the overall limits of the vehicle.

As I was reading Grassroots Motorsports (one of the greatest car rags ever) there was an article on young people involved in autocross and other entry level events of driving skill. In one of the editorials, the author pointed out that you don't "lose control of a car, you give it up." Apparently, so many drivers are giving it up, we will now have a computer to take over.

benderofbows

eBay motors- Honda Accords, sorted by highest mileage, shows 18 cars with over 200,000 miles (excluding typos) out of 305 total for sale. Another 32 cars are 150 to 199k. Another 70 are between 100 and 149k.

Nearly 2 out of every 5 Accords currently for sale on eBay have over 100,000 miles. That is right now.

There is a 1991 Accord for sale with 341k miles, which appears to run and drive well.

jd10013

not a bad looking car. need to take the bottom chrome off the front though, and better tail pipe finsihers. other than that, a very nice offering by ford

urnews

It would be my luck to buy one of those eBay Accords with 100,000 miles and have it implode at 100,001, right after I drove it away.

I've owned many, many cars in my 49 years of driving but I've never owned one with 100,000 miles. My 2000 Ford Focus station wagon has 93,000 miles on it so it may be the first. That's one of the reasons why we bought a Fusion for our mid-size sedan, good results with the Focus and with a 1997 Ford Thunderbird, 85,000 miles.

Even so, Bender, your Accord research was quite enlightening. It would seem at first blush that the Accords take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.

urnews

It's just a 2008 Fusion, which is the same, appearance-wise, as the 2006 and 2007 Fusions. No styling changes. But the renderings for the 2009 reveal quite a few changes, including the loss of the bottom chrome bars and a new taillight setup.

I believe FoMoCo is serious about becoming a stalwart competitor in the mid-size segment again, as is GM. Chrysler doesn't seem to have a serious contender in this category.

elroy5

In one of the editorials, the author pointed out that you don't "lose control of a car, you give it up." Apparently, so many drivers are giving it up, we will now have a computer to take over.

At the moment when the car is not going in the intended direction, it becomes a "loss" of control. Even the most highly skilled racing car drivers "lose it" and you sir, can too. And could one day be saved by a "nanny".

kdshapiro

If it's you and me on the road, and you give up control of your car, lawsuits and punitive damages (for you) are very expensive if you maim or kill me. Not to mention possible criminal charges. I would think you would want a DSC type system to save your bacon on the road. But I could be wrong. Anyway, in a few years it will become a moot point. If you buy a car after a certain point, you will have a DSC type system. Get used to it. Get a BMW to try out DSC, take a performance course at BMW Spartanburg so you know how it really works.

baggs32

eBay motors- Honda Accords, sorted by highest mileage, shows 18 cars with over 200,000 miles (excluding typos) out of 305 total for sale. Another 32 cars are 150 to 199k. Another 70 are between 100 and 149k.

Nearly 2 out of every 5 Accords currently for sale on eBay have over 100,000 miles. That is right now.


Not sure what your point is? :confuse:

If you look at MY 2000-2007 for the Accord and Ford Focus, which I assume the Honda fans consider the ultimate unreliable car, both have 14 listed on ebay motors with over 100k miles. I used those years because the Focus has only been out since 2000 and all of the over 200k Accords you mention are from the 80s or early to mid 90s. I'm guessing you could find the same cross section of any brand or model on ebay motors.

So are we to believe ebay motors is proof of the Accords assumed reliability leadership? Just asking. :shades:

A quick check of the Taurus, all years this time, shows one for sale with over 200k miles and 63 more over 100k miles.

jd10013

It would be my luck to buy one of those eBay Accords with 100,000 miles and have it implode at 100,001, right after I drove it away

sounds like you've bought off ebay before. :P

seriously though, no way on gods green earth I go to ebay for a car. It no surprise over half the accords there are high milage. Its not a testament to the accord durability, (and it is a very durable car) but rather a testimonial to the crap you find on ebay.

lilengineerboy

In one of the editorials, the author pointed out that you don't "lose control of a car, you give it up." Apparently, so many drivers are giving it up, we will now have a computer to take over.

At the moment when the car is not going in the intended direction, it becomes a "loss" of control. Even the most highly skilled racing car drivers "lose it" and you sir, can too. And could one day be saved by a "nanny".

I have to say, I totally disagree with that statement, and that is why so many people refer to it as a "loss of control." These are the same people that refer to crashes as accidents. There is a lack of personal accountability here, one doesn't lose control, they give up control, most often because they lack driving skill. This is an issue with people driving a vehicle beyond their skill level, at which point it would be more effective to activate the brakes on all 4 wheels. There may be times when the car will not follow exactly the wishes of the operator, but that doesn't mean or even imply that the driver has no control over the vehicle.
Suddenly, if they say "oh, it wasn't my fault, I lost control" that makes it all better.

backy

OK, glad there is no misconception; I thought there might be based on your earlier posts in which you said the Sonata had the highest repair costs in its class (not true) and that these collision repair costs were somehow related to the cars' warranties (also not true). We are all copasetic now. :shades:

lilengineerboy

f it's you and me on the road, and you give up control of your car, lawsuits and punitive damages (for you) are very expensive if you maim or kill me. Not to mention possible criminal charges. I would think you would want a DSC type system to save your bacon on the road.

Yes, EXACTLY. If I give up control of my vehicle, I should be held liable for damages. Oh wait, that is how it works now (if you live in a real state that has real insurance, unlike MI and this no-fault farce) and that is why people have insurance.

So you are telling me if we all have this nanny on our car, we won't need insurance or lawyers anymore? Hmm that might get me to change my mind.

elroy5

There may be times when the car will not follow exactly the wishes of the operator, but that doesn't mean or even imply that the driver has no control over the vehicle.

That my friend is a "loss" of control. If you don't have TOTAL control, you have LOST some control. You may be able to regain control, but it may be too late. It seems these "electronic nannies" can improve lap times for F1 drivers, but obviously these guys can't hold a candle to your abilities. PLEASE. No matter how good a driver you think you are, you are human and can make mistakes. A "nanny" may save your life one day.

lilengineerboy

That my friend is a "loss" of control. If you don't have TOTAL control, you have LOST some control. You may be able to regain control, but it may be too late.

Control isn't digital, its not something you have or you don't. In racing, there are many times when you cannot get the vehicle to do exactly what you want, either because of picking a bad line, carrying too much speed, another vehicle in the way, etc, but amazingly, the driver can keep the vehicle on the road and out of anyone else's fenders.

There is no collision avoidance application in DSC. It lowers the limits of the vehicle to match the abilities of the driver. Is a car with lower limits safer in the hands of the general public? Probably. The original argument was if these systems would improve handling, and I think consensus is now that they won't, although they may improve safety.

It seems these "electronic nannies" can improve lap times for F1 drivers, but obviously these guys can't hold a candle to your abilities.

While I appreciate your acknowledgment of my incredible driving prowess, I would also like to point out that the systems used in F1 (since they are definitely applicable to mid-sized sedans) can vary suspension rates as well as pre-load the sway bars. That, my fellow Honda loving friend, would improve handling. This is not such a new concept, Citroen did it on their mid-sized sedan in the 60s, and a number of vehicles have used electronic systems to vary the amount of dampening. The systems being discussed currently will just brake.

Vehicles like the BMW 7-series (just for you kdshapiro) have electronically adjusted sway bars that can limit body roll and weight transfer. Given the weight of the BMW is about 2x that of my Accord, I think the car handles remarkably well, and this electronically adjusted suspension is a big part of it. Will your $18k Accord have the same system as the $100k BMW, I am gonna guess no, but I think I was wrong before once or something :P

andres3

Yes, I would say you've been quite enlightened, as thinking 85,000 miles is a good experience, is a direct shame on the American car industry.

That is setting the bar, way, WAY TOO low.

Good results for 85K and sold for good resale, or 85K and you met a repair bill worth more than the vehicle?

jd10013

thats where you loose any pretense of objectivity andre, and why people think of you as a paid honda representative. j/k

Nobody here doubts that accords last long, hold up well, and suffer relatively few major problem. Nobody really argues that. But to say domestic cars only last 85k is just nonsense, and everybody takes your opinions and post with a grain of salt. I've owned many a ford and a chevy or two that has gone far longer than that.

elroy5

While I appreciate your acknowledgment of my incredible driving prowess,

You obviously have an over-inflated view of your own driving abilities. Highly skilled (and handsomely paid) drivers can "loose control" and hit the wall, but I guess they are all beneath your skill level. I bow to your greatness sir. Why have I never heard of you? :confuse: Is your last name Montoya?

andres3

I was nothing special to Honda, other than being a younger man up and coming in the world with a lot of future vehicle purchases in my lifetime to come.

It was my first Honda, that 2003 Accord. I don't think it'll be my last, at least not my family's last as my wife has gotten two Civics in a row, three if you count the used purchase of the 92 Civic, (the 05 was totalled by some bad driver in a 2004 Jetta).

I would assume Honda treats all of their customers at least as good as they did to me, but I was somewhat aggressive and demanding with my dealer. They can't say no if you don't ask. It's when they say no and you've asked politely that you should get mad and raise hell.

Looking back, I should have gotten a big sign and picketed the Dodge dealer right in front of them on the sidewalk until they offered to pay for my AC repair and head gaskets, and auto tranny, and 15 other things. Alas... I didn't take the time or think it might work, however

I have a coworker that told me he picketed Carmaxx in front of their sales lot, and after about day 5 doing it, everyday for all day, they caved in and bought back his 10 month old Windstar sp?? Ford for 100% of his purchase price. The only conditions they gave him for buying it back at full price were that he never shop or buy from CarMax again

lilengineerboy

You obviously have an over-inflated view of your own driving abilities. Highly skilled (and handsomely paid) drivers can "loose control" and hit the wall, but I guess they are all beneath your skill level. I bow to your greatness sir. Why have I never heard of you? Is your last name Montoya?

You have never heard of me because my name isn't in the papers because I don't hit the wall. :P Okay okay, I am taking this less seriously than you, I apologize.

My point is that DSC as it applies to relatively inexpensive mid-sized kid-hauling grocery getters is not going to increase the handling capabilities of the vehicle. It is going to lower them.

Are lower handling limits safer for most drivers? Probably. Is having a "nanny" react because the driver gave up going to help? Probably. Would actually teaching people how to drive help? Probably.

lilengineerboy

A quick check of the Taurus, all years this time, shows one for sale with over 200k miles

LOL. And 1 single lone Taurus over 200K miles for sale is equivalent to the 18, count them, eightteen Accords with over 200K miles for sale how?

Actually, there are 15 on Autotrader right now...maybe they don't put the Tauri on eBay because they can still retail them, while the high mileage Accords like mine are Craigslist or eBay only.

lilengineerboy

It was my first Honda, that 2003 Accord. I don't think it'll be my last, at least not my family's last as my wife has gotten two Civics in a row, three if you count the used purchase of the 92 Civic, (the 05 was totalled by some bad driver in a 2004 Jetta).

Hmm 2004 Jettas had stability control...

thegraduate

This was once a comparison of sedans. Now it seems to be a comparison of 15 year old brand reliability and stability control chat.

What happened to comparisons of the new Altima and Camry, Fusion and Aura, et al? :confuse:

elroy5

Even if every driver was as highly skilled as lilengineerboy , ESC would still be a good idea, IMO.

thegraduate

Unfortunately, there's not much "meat" to the forum anymore.

andres3

NEW midsize cars only, or am I welcome to discuss the finer points of the early 90's Accords and Camry's?

thegraduate

I'm not sure (that's the host's call). It just seemed like a lot more people would look here to compare the current vehicles, since cars like the early 90s Accords weren't even midsize cars.

I'm not the forum police though, and you may certainly take any and everything I say with a grain of salt.

urnews

Good results for 85K and sold for good resale, or 85K and you met a repair bill worth more than the vehicle?

Neither, actually. We still own and drive the 85K T-bird and the 92K Focus in addition to owning a 2007 SEL AWD Fusion with 3,700 miles.

maxamillion1

I have got to say that I really like the new Accord sedan.

From what I've seen so far, it's probably the boldest Accord sedan since the 1986 "flip up" lights Accord. It's good to finally see a real grille on the car for once. And I'm particularlly fond of the side profile with it's chrome accents. I'm finally glad to be able to say I find the Accord as attractive as the Altima and Mazda6 and that it doesn't look nearly as horrific (forgive me current accord owners) as the 03-05 models (06-07 look a little better than 03-05s IMO)

Can't wait to see pics of the interior and offical photos from Honda.

maxamillion1

I know it's just an 06-07 type model. It's the 2008 Apperance Pkg model with the 18 inch wheels. I think I saw a post here (or somewhere) asking if anyone had seen the new alloy wheels that will be offered with that package and since i saw the pics, I thought I'd post them.

targettuning

Funny you should pick Taurus to point out how poor domestics are. Directly prior to purchasing the 95 Stratus from my daughter we owned about, lets see, 7 Taurus/Sables from 1986 to 1988 model years. All bought used. The longest lived was the 1987 wagon sold two years ago this Thanksgiving. It had 293,435 miles when sold and I still see it occasionally on the road around town. Yes, it did have a reman. transmission installed @ around 190K miles. Yes I did repair/replace things on it in the 13 years I owned it (from 132K miles to 293K miles). The next was a 1987 LX sedan that was sold to a friends son @ about 190K miles. It NEVER had the transmission replaced up to the point he was rear-ended at around 200K miles thus ending the cars useful life. The last higher mileage was a 1986 Sable wagon that went to 150K miles. Original transmission replaced @132K miles...salvage yard replacement lost reliable OD and was not remaining in it when sold. All had the "Vulcan" V-6 and NONE required any engine work (except water pumps, alternators etc) and NONE used oil or ran poorly regardless of mileage. I spent $$ on most of them for mostly normal repairs. Some had odd things go wrong and some (one comes to mind) was a money pit that vexed me until I repaired/replaced almost all electrical items e.g. power window motors..pwr. lock actuators...AC problems...auto climate control etc. but ran flawlessly otherwise.

lilengineerboy

Every time I see this:


I think this:


With some of this:


I want to see it in person first. I thought the Altima looked terrible in the "early" photos but I really like the way it looks in person (and the coupe looks great).

Honda usually doesn't go too crazy so I want to see it in person before I make a judgment.

baggs32

LOL. And 1 single lone Taurus over 200K miles for sale is equivalent to the 18, count them, eightteen Accords with over 200K miles for sale how?


Once again, missing the point and spinning it around to favor your favorite car.

Listings on Ebay, autotrader, or whatever are not ways to measure reliability or durability. Once those 200k+ Accords sell you may see more Tauruses with 200k+ miles listed. Should I call USA Today so they can start printing the story now? :sick:

targettuning

I have been noting my perceptions on a 2007 Fusion "S" 4 cylinder 5 speed automatic. Originally I was comparing it to a 2006.5 Kia Optima since I almost literally jumped out of the Kia into the Fusion. Now as I have driven the Fusion more and on a weekly repeated trip of a little over 300 miles I will say more.
1. The initial observation of a noisy engine (induction noise as opposed to mechanical clanks) remains. It also has, I believe, raspy exhaust but I can't hear much over the engine.
2. After driving in the Allegheny mountains I confirm initial observations of sluggish acceleration/ and or slow speeds up those mountains with the same four adults (less luggage) as was in the Optima last week. The Optima fairly flew up those same mountains and remained in at least 4th gear whereas the Fusion needed a downshift to 3rd to maintain speed once gained ( and that seemed to be more of a struggle).
3. I find I dislike even more the high rear package shelf/trunk as time passes. Sometimes when I crest a hill the car behind me is momentarily lost from sight as the rear rises on the downside of the hill. Additionally backing into a parking stall is difficult when you cannot see "behind" well.
4. The car feels larger than it probably is..upright and tall like a Ford crossover SUV. It feels solid (5K miles however) rides firmly and corners and tracks pretty well also.
5. Now for fuel economy. 345 miles @ 13 gallons = 26.538 mpg. This was unlike the trip using the Optima so I won't directly compare to it but it WAS typical of a week-end trip using our 1995 Dodge Stratus...same terrain, same route, same speeds, same load (4 adults no luggage). The Stratus for those who do not know has 187,500+ miles a 4 speed auto 2.5 liter V-6 (164 hp) which compares favorably with the 4 cylinder/5 speed auto Ford. The Stratus generally gets the same/similar or a bit more mpg on these trips (around 27.3- sometimes as much as 28 mpg). I have used it week in and week out for more than a year on this same exact trip so I have more experience with it but I am not really impressed with the Fusion so far. A Hyundai Sonata 4 cylinder/4 speed auto (2006) rented for the same trip a few months ago got (as I recall) about 29.something mpg.
I don't know that the V-6 Fusion would do any worse on this type drive. If you factor in the apparent laboring engine of the 4 cyl. in the mountains and additional gear (6 speed auto). I have never driven the V-6 model but since I have this trip every week I might strongly consider it over the 4 if I were to buy a Fusion/Milan. Conversely since I AM considering a Sonata I wonder (after having rented both 4 and V-6) if I really, really need the 6. The 4 cylinder in that car and the Optima is perfectly satisfactory..quick even..on my typical weekly trip..mountains included and seems to get better fuel economy (even the V-6 Sonata got about 29 mpg)!

jeffyscott

Listings on Ebay, autotrader, or whatever are not ways to measure reliability or durability.

But I think they do provide some indication as to how common getting to 300K miles is...and all indications are 300K mi is not common at all, on any car. Which I think is something that most rational people already realized .

Kirstie_H

C'mon, folks. Several of your fellow members have urged on-topic conversation. It's not hard - the clue is in the discussion title.

benderofbows

So far, I've been seeing 28 mpg city / 34 mpg highway in the Accord, average of 30, without even trying to maximize economy (quick starts and heel-toe downshifts in the city, and 70-80 mph highway).

After reading an article on MSN about "hypermiling" (using various methods to greatly increase economy), I'm going to use this tank of gas to test some of the theories. Most of it is common sense, i.e. avoiding quick starts and excessive idling while stopped, no more than 5 mph over speedlimit or 55 mph, etc. Also, not giving it any more gas on hills, just keeping the throttle open to the same amount as on flat ground, and letting speed fall some.

Some of it has surprised me... The last mile of my commute home, if I slip into neutral at a certain point, I'll only have to give it five short pulls from 2,000-2,500 rpms to get into my driveway. The rest of the time I am coasting along just fine at idle in netural. It is also surprising to me how keeping the revs down below 2,500 makes acceleration seem excruciatingly slow to me, yet none of the other traffic seems to mind at all. I don't get passed by many people, and still leave some people behind.

A few of the theories are pretty wild, such as shutting of the engine at stoplights and on long downhills, drafting 18-wheelers, etc. I won't be going crazy here, just trying some of the easy stuff for one tank of gas, at least 80% city, to see how much of a difference it makes.

Has anybody already tried anything like this? What do you guys think, will it make any difference and if so, will it be worth it? I think I'll see some substantial gains with the coasting. Also, the Accord is the perfect car to try this with, as I can keep the VTEC on the "economy" profile.