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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    That's mostly because there are no manuals being *offered*. The number of people desiring a manual has hardly changed in the last 30 or 40 years. A good indication of this is the number of manu-matics that are everywhere. If the pent up demand for shifting manually wasn't there, Porsche would have remained the only company doing it.

    I find it to be no problem in daily traffic - and I live in Los Angeles, birthplace of the freeway and traffic jam.

    For me, it's mostly cost and reliability. If I need a new clutch, I can budget for one and squeeze it into my budget. If I need a rebuild on an automatic... I've had cars sit for as long as three months as I tried to scrape together the money.(read: take the bus, which in L.A. is not fun at all - or safe)

    But it's also fun at times - traffic is okay - it is what it is. But when I get into the mountains, life is good. :)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    You obviously haven't driven a good ManuMatic with a 235+ hp V6 (like the Sonata)to make those comments.

    Actually I have, as well as a few tiptronic vehicles, and a paddle shift BWM and GTI DSG. It just wasn't as fun for me as shifting. If that works for you, I think thats fantastic and when I'm old I might get a slushbox or CVT(although my father and father in law are both in their 60s and have 6 speed manuals), but for now, it has to have a pedal for a clutch if they want my business.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,911
    There was a post in the 2008 Sonata discussion from, apparently, a Hyundai sales rep, saying that the 2008 Sonata I4 will be available only with a stick shift, in GLS trim only. Meaning there will be no I4 + automatic choice on the Sonata.

    If that is true, what could HMA be thinking??
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    the Europeans just laugh at us...

    Why? Because we don't like to shift gears? Who wants to deal with a clutch anyway? Ferrari seems to like paddle shifters themselves.

    I could care less what the Euros think about us anyway. Our lifestyle is vastly different, more affluent, more adventurous. Our vehicles reflect that.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    That's mostly because there are no manuals being *offered*. The number of people desiring a manual has hardly changed in the last 30 or 40 years

    I disagree. The market doesn't work that way. car manufactures produce the products people want. That kind of stuff is heavily polled, surveyed, and focus group tested. The most likely culprit is traffic. For most people, working a clutch and stick in bumper to bumper traffic moving 10 mph is just a pain in the [non-permissible content removed].
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    I'd bet that for the europeans, mpg is the driving force in their preference for MT over autos. Ditto for their affinity to diesel cars. with 6-7 dollars or more for a gallon of gas, I guess every mpg you can squeeze out counts.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Honda's apparent diesel offering in the new Accord could start a trend in the states for diesels. The Accord is so mainstream that its embracement of diesel vs. say VW's is a big endorsement by a major player that may turn more and more heads toward the new generation of diesels.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Maybe, but diesel's are a pain in the neck. I owned a golf diesel 10 years ago. They do last forever (mine was running perfect at 400k), and get tremendous millage (I was getting 60) but they can be a nightmare in the cold. below 20 degrees, diesel fuel turns into something resembling jello. You have to be careful to buy winterized diesel, or, or properly do it yourself. You also need to make sure your battery is in top shape, the same with the glow plugs. A gas car can start with a weak battery, a diesel won't. In extreme cold (about 10 degrees or lower) you really need to plug it in at night. There's issues with supply (most gas stations don't have diesel pumps), more maintainance, and repairs are usually much more expensive. Just finding a good diesel mechanic can be a challenge. A diesel motor is also a good bit more expensive than a traditional gasoline engine. And, without a turbo charger, your going to notice a considerable loss of power. A lot more torque, but less horse power.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    That was a very interesting read, Elroy5. Of course I would like to have seen a Fusion thrown into the mix, but was not surprised that the Accord finished first.

    and consumer reports put the altima 1st, and motor trends named the camry 2007 car of the year.

    rankings are really quite worthless. Not to knock ANY car, but you can find a review or ranking that says exactly what you want it to say, for any car you want.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    rankings are really quite worthless. Not to knock ANY car, but you can find a review or ranking that says exactly what you want it to say, for any car you want.

    Not necessarily, name a (full) comparison that the Fusion, Malibu, and Sebring won (that they didn't pay for themselves).
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I owned a golf diesel 10 years ago.

    Wow, I wouldn't expect any advances in technology over eh, a decade. :D

    Current VW TDIs don't even have the diesel rattle, and additives to the fuel itself do a lot to make it more temperature stable. Diesel in my area is also ~$0.50/gal cheaper than gasoline, and diesel vehicles will travel considerably further on each gallon. I haven't seen a gas station in SE MI without Diesel. Glow plugs have longer replacement intervals than spark plugs.

    I wouldn't hesitate for a second if I could find a reliable manual transmissioned diesel sedan in my price range, and I would definitely do that before going for some half gas/half electric hodge podge that has only been around for a few years. Hopefully those battery packs are better than the one in my laptop, which uses the same technology.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    name a (full) comparison that the Fusion, Malibu, and Sebring won

    Yea ...but the term "won" is misused.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Yea ...but the term "won" is misused.

    OK, let's say "ranked" first, or even second.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Wow, I wouldn't expect any advances in technology over eh, a decade.


    I'm not knocking diesel's, they do have several advantages. but most of the technological improvements have been in the area of emmisions.

    But they are good cars. I bought the golf used for $300 with 300,000 miles on it, and kept it for 4 years. I gave it to my father in law, in perfect working order. And most of the time, it ran problem free. Its just when they do have problems, they're 10x the headache than with a gas car. There are deffinitly drawbacks to them, and reasons why they've never caught on big in the states.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I disagree, it's claustrophic back there. But to each there own. :)
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Not necessarily, name a (full) comparison that the Fusion, Malibu, and Sebring won (that they didn't pay for themselves).

    I'm sure they're out there. The point is, all these reviewers have their own preferences, and it shows. Just look at C&D. They always name honda tops. the fit, civic, accord, CRV, it doesn't matter. If its a honda, 9 out of 10 times they will rank it best. What did they say in that review? car of the universe? I mean, come on. be a little objective.

    And no, I have nothing against honda. own a civic and almost bought an accord. They're great cars, worth the money, and deffinitly a top tier car. But I just have to take C&D with a grain of salt.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The trend has already been started. Mercedes is offering their Bluetec. BMW has had diesels ready to go in the states for a while. They are waiting for code uniformity dealing with pollution standards.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,911
    That's easy. C/D ranked the Fusion 2nd in a comparo of the Accord, Fusion, Sonata, and (previous-gen) Camry. As for the Malibu, wasn't it MT COTY in its previous incarnation? (Questionable, maybe, but it counts as a #1.) And with the new Malibu based on the same platform as the Aura, this year's NACOTY, the Malibu could take home some accolades next year. As for the Sebring... it is such a great car, some company just got paid about $500M by DaimlerChrysler to take over ownership of it along with the rest of Chrysler. :P
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    That's easy. C/D ranked the Fusion 2nd in a comparo of the Accord, Fusion, Sonata, and (previous-gen) Camry.

    I would like to see a link to that one. I thought the Fusion was 4th, out of 4 in that one.

    Questionable,

    COTY is more than just questionable. They only consider "new designs" for car of the year. The Aura had no competition. The chances of the 08 Malibu winning COTY next year are 0%. It will have (stiff) competition.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The RX8 may be a bit claustrophobic, but well, you're not the one sitting back there, are you?

    :)

    As for diesels, look, Europe gets cold winters - winters that make most of the U.S. look like a coldsnap. And their TDI/CDI vehicles do just fine. The new Honda diesel is, as Honda says, "designed by a man who hates diesels" - so it's quiet and appliance-reliable.

    Also, diesel fuel takes less resources to refine and can be blended with, well, anything. You can in theory run a diesel engine on soybean oil, corn oil, or whatever - and most of them are far more renewable than petrochemical based fuels.(even a small amount helps)
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