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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    When price comes into the equation, we are talking about "best value", not "class leader". Two totally different things. "Class leader" means the highest selling car, and the car regarded as the best car in it's particular class, irrespective of price.

    You say it is the "highest selling car" and "regarded as the best". The highest selling car can be easily defined, but is not always going to be "regarded as best". If it is not, then which is the "class leader"?

    If price does not matter, then maybe we need to consider whether midsize sedans like the Audi S6 ($72,000) or BMW M5 ($83,000) out-class cars like the Camry and Accord.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    If price does not matter, then maybe we need to consider whether midsize sedans like the Audi S6 ($72,000) or BMW M5 ($83,000) out-class cars like the Camry and Accord.

    That depends on other limitations of the class specifications. If you include those cars above then you are including mid-sized luxury sedans which can be, and often are, considered to be in another class themselves.

    Those lines can be pretty blurred though. Often when mags do comparos they make up classes that we don't often realize are even there. Things like V6 powered AWD mid-sized sedans under $30k. That's a small group, but it can be a "class".

    I see your point and also see how this line of discussion could end up in an endless loop! :surprise: :D
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Is it all worth it? I don't know?? He does this for fun and as a hobby.

    Oh its definitely not worth it, but man, its fun. :D I'm glad he is happy with his mods and that they woke up his ride
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    It would depend on how the car handled...no point in having a more powerful car if handling isn't very sharp unless going fast in a straight line is all a person is after. If I could get around 20mpg city, 25+ hwy (+/- 2mpg) like I am now, I'd take the more powerful one. But I'm not too sure about the track-record of this Acme sales company...seems they sold Wild E Cayote some pretty shoddy products.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    But I'm not too sure about the track-record of this Acme sales company...seems they sold Wild E Cayote some pretty shoddy products.

    Nah, I'm pretty sure it was just operator error. He should have paid more attention to what he was doing and spent less time painting those "uh oh" signs for when he fell off a cliff. :)
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    Nah, I'm pretty sure it was just operator error.

    But his business card said he was a "Super Genius". :)
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Posts: 214
    I realize that there is no "right" answer to this question; just wanted to know how others view this. I had a 220 hp SHO which was tested to 140 mph. It would also accelerate rapidly on an on-ramp and, with the 5-speed, pass quickly at highway speeds. Thus, 220 hp seemed to be as much, or more, power than I would ever need. Some recent comments have indicated that more power is needed to be "competitive"; just wanted to know how other feel.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    I don't think it would make that big a difference. theese are cars that fetch a pretty good price, and are not entry level, first time buyer cars. people (for the most part) who shop for midsize cars can afford a camry, or accord, or altima......if they want one, and think its worth it.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    I realize that there is no "right" answer to this question;

    The correct answer is there is no correct answer; just as you have stated. Our 2007 SEL AWD 3.0-liter V6 is rated at 221 horsepower. The V6s in Camrys, Accords, Auras, Sonatas, Altimas are rated higher, I believe.

    We find that the Fusion is fast enough, powerful enough for our needs but the gas mileage is really terrible, 14.8 mpg in all-city driving. In retrospect, the 160-horsepower I4 engine would have been adequate for the type of driving we do, 95 percent in-city travel with only two or three highway trips a year.

    It will be interesting to read other forum members comments on how much horsepower (get up and go) is enough.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I look at it this way. As long as I can get mid 20s mpg in town, and high 20s on the highway, I'll take all the power I can get. I can't imagine having too much power. That's like having too much money, there is no such thing IMO. :D
    There are luxury cars with a lot more hp (400 and more), and I don't think any of the owners are complaining that they have too much power. I would not complain either. :D
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    You say it is the "highest selling car" and "regarded as the best". The highest selling car can be easily defined, but is not always going to be "regarded as best". If it is not, then which is the "class leader"?

    Sometimes there is no clear "class leader". The class leader can sell for more because it's the class leader. It doesn't become the class leader, simply because it has a higher price.

    If price does not matter, then maybe we need to consider whether midsize sedans like the Audi S6 ($72,000) or BMW M5 ($83,000) out-class cars like the Camry and Accord.

    These cars are in a different class. Who doesn't know this? They can be the "class leader" in their own class.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    HP=bragging rights and looks good on paper and to the person who is researching vehicles. What I don't understand is these are supposed to be family sedans not sport sedans or race cars. When will the HP war end? Who knows? Frankly I look for substance and value in a vehicle. Do I really need a 500HP family sedan? Heck no. My bet is the consumer will choose by showing manufactures by sales numbers as to what they want.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    Fusion S 5spd 4cyl in the paper today for $14,777!! with ABS and "extras". Only 1 at this price, but still.. what a steal..
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    One point to take a look at is the "class leader" has the lowest consumer rankings by actual owners?? (Posted above). This is puzzling to me. You would think the "class leader" would have at least a score close to other vehicles in this class or better. The other thing to look at is the amount of consumer reviews. Anyone who has had statistics knows what I am talking about.. ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Technology will continue to advance engine and powertrain designs. And improvements in fuel mileage and power will be made. You can even choose what advancement you want to take advantage of. You can opt for the high mileage of a Hybrid, or fuel efficient 4cylinder engines that have the power of V6 engines made 10 years ago. Or you can opt for the new V6 engines that have the fuel efficiency of 4cylinder engines of 10 years ago, and power of V8 engines made 10 years ago. Isn't technology great!!!? :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    My 1996 got clipped tonight on I-59. I'll post pictures and the story later on. Its a sad day, even though the damage is limited.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    These cars are in a different class. Who doesn't know this? They can be the "class leader" in their own class.

    Yes, they are in a different class because the price of the car does matter. This whole "class leader" claim seems kind of silly to me, anyway.

    You can not objectively determine that one car is the "best" in a particular "class". "Best" is a subjective judgement that a person makes based on their evaluation of a whole lot of objective and subjective criteria and "class" is a fuzzy term.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Yes, they are in a different class because the price of the car does matter.

    Price does matter when separating the classes. Not many people are going to test drive a BMW 5 series today, then test drive a Camry tomorrow.

    You can not objectively determine that one car is the "best" in a particular "class".

    The consumers have voted. The Camry is the class leader, so other car makers try to emulate it. Hyundai was following the "leader" when they designed the Sonata. If the Mazda6 was the class leader, I think the Sonata would be a very different car.

    Everyone does not have to agree on what car is best. Personally, I don't like the Camry, or the Camry copiers, so I voted for another car.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Posts: 442
    Sorry to hear that. Hope no one was hurt, and all is OK.
    van
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    The law of averages catches up with you sooner or later. Consider yourself lucky that you got that far in mileage before it happened. :sick:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I believe the class leader in this segment, is the Camry even though the Accord is a better vehicle overall. The reason the Camry sells and sells is that it typifies what is needed in the segment. Decent, reliable, transportation, inexpensive to operate, room for a family. Toyota figured out what a family sedan was and rolled with it.

    As a car that I would buy, it's last on my list, but I wouldn't hestitate to recommend it (and I have) to people looking for a family sedan. People know what they get into when they buy a Camry, unlike Ford. There are a lot of people(at least that I know) that won't go near a Ford again. It may be perception, but it is a reality. Those that buy Camrys may rate them a "5", but they know the car will always be a five. I don't think people say that about Ford, even though the ratings may start higher.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    I believe the class leader in this segment, is the Camry even though the Accord is a better vehicle overall

    I agree, At one time we had both in our garage. The Camry offers a markedly different drive than the Accord. The Camry's kinda 'Buicky/floaty'. The Accord is more 'athletic'.

    Both were bulletproof and held their value very well.

    I get the Accord appeal. The Camry appeal is harder for me to grasp, but I understand it.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    Isn't technology great!!!?

    A very pertinent post. But one that makes me again realize that we should have bought an I4 2.3-liter 160 horsepower Fusion instead of the V6 3.0-liter 221 horsepower one.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    even though the Accord is a better vehicle

    once again, thats just an opinion.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,907
    Decent, reliable, transportation, inexpensive to operate, room for a family.

    That can be said for any number of mid-sized cars, including the Accord, Fusion/Milan, Sonata, Optima, etc.

    If that's all someone is looking for in a mid-sized car, they have lots of good choices besides the Camry. They just have to make the effort to check them out.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Of course it's an opinion, how many times does one have to say: "I believe", "in my opinion", "IMHO", "IMO", etc.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Of course! You are referring to the marketing segment of family midsize sedans. But I was referring to the class leader as being the Camry (IMO, of course). And of course, I don't know how much shopping people in general really do. I do know people who head straight for Honda and Toyota, for they think those cars are the best at what they do.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    As a car that I would buy, it's last on my list, but I wouldn't hestitate to recommend it (and I have) to people looking for a family sedan.

    KDShapiro,

    What's first on your list? What do you drive now?

    I disagree with your comments regarding Ford but understand that you are entitled to your opinions even though they come mighty close to bashing a manufacturer, in my humble opinion, and that is something that is supposedly verboten on this mid-size sedan thread.

    I guess that you have conveniently forgotten all those years when Taurus was the No. 1-selling mid-size sedan by a large margin. IMHO Ford allowed the Taurus to die on the vine, did not keep pace with the marketplace which, in turn, allowed Camry to move into the No. 1 spot.

    Will Toyota remain there? Will Honda move up? Will the Ford Fusion catch on and become No. 1? Will Sonata sales soar at some point in the future? And what about the Aura and the Altima? Will a Chevrolet Malibu work its way up?

    Will Camrys be smitten with another problem like the terrible oil sludge debacle?

    Maybe I am not typical, but I have always had good experiences with Ford products and currently own three of them, a 1997 Thunderbird with 85,000 miles, a 2000 Focus station wagon with 92,000 miles and a 2007 Fusion with 3,400 miles.

    Would I buy another Ford product? You bet. Have I ever owned anything manufactured by Honda or Toyota? No, but I have owned three Mazda products, which were also fine vehicles.

    It's my guess that the Honda Accord is destined to become the No. 1-selling mid-size sedan and that's fine with me. This great country is all about choices and competition, which are both healthy attributes.

    Boz
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    I guess that you have conveniently forgotten all those years when Taurus was the No. 1-selling mid-size sedan by a large margin.

    Yea - and 50% of those sales were to rental car companies, who's requirements are vastly different than those to consumers. Also think 'pre-internet' period where folks couldn't research like they do now.

    My 1996 Taurus was a joke and cemented the forget-Ford feeling in my house. We traded that car for a Camry and the Camry experience was excellent. It'll take many, many years for Ford to move up the possible purchase ladder for me. Probably won't considering the plethora of alternatives out there today.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    The consumers have voted. The Camry is the class leader

    Okay, so now you are saying class leader = sales leader. Before it was the car that was also to be deemed best by reviewers or something like that. So why not just say it is the best selling car in it's "class" or "segment"...or it's the best selling midsize car? Heck, you can even say it's the best selling car period.
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