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Comments

  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Ah ha! at the risk of censure you did have a transmission failure then, at less than 65K miles? Somehow mine at 187K miles doesn't seem so bad now. Still costly but no shame at those miles.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    ABS and Traction control yes ESC no according to the 2007 Fusion brochure I am looking at.

    One of the Ford guys can correct me if I am wrong but I think the limitation is that the Fusion has 3 channel ABS vs 4 channel (it looks at the rear wheels together) so there is no functionality to individually control the rear brakes. I am not positive about this though.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    So it is better for Ford to offer ABS as a standalone option on all trim levels, and not offer ESC at all on any trim, than it is for Honda to include ABS as standard on all trims and include ESC as standard on all V6 models???

    Anyways, doesn't really matter, I'm off to the beach
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    So it is better for Ford to offer ABS as a standalone option on all trim levels, ...

    ABS will be standard on all 2008 Fusions and the government is mandating ESC beginning with the 2012 models, IIRC.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    When Dodge pays for your transmission replacement out of warranty pigs will fly.

    Honda has already done the same for me and many others of that I am sure. I'd much rather have a transmission failure that is covered, paid for, (including rental car during the order/fix time) then have a tranny fail early in life (prior to 200K in my opinion), and have to either be out of pocket with the money or out of car!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    Believe me... some of us appreciate your "evilness"!!

    :)
  • thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    this is a little ridiculous. the fact that his car made it to 187k WITHOUT a transmission failure when yours only made it to 65k, and you STILL find away to make it look bad, and the honda to look great.

    I would guess at least 90% of people these days don't keep their cars past 120k, nevermind 187k. so i would rather have a car that had NO transmission failures than a car that had a transmission failure, even if it was covered/partially covered under warranty.

    -thene :confuse:
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    I see you are not considering the MS6...you don't want your wife to one up you with a better mazda6? :P just kidding, don't think I'd like two of the same cars in my garage, just like I don't like seeing too many of the car I'm driving around.

    Thanks for sharing your experiences about the other cars too. Since I know what you're driving, I've got a pretty good idea of how those other cars compare now.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Yes, but no one wants, and no one will buy your car at 120K knowing full well that the tranny will die anyday now.

    Hence, no resale value. People know the Honda tranny isn't gonna die again anytime soon, hence, the high resale value. So you might not keep your car past 120K, but are you selling it, or just keeping it in the backyard as decoration? Someone is going to want it at 120K, but not if it's a domestic.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    and the 187K figure for his Stratus is a world record, coming in second place for Stratus' worldwide is about 100K, then third place is down around 65K. So let's not use this aberration of a figure.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    don't think I'd like two of the same cars in my garage, just like I don't like seeing too many of the car I'm driving around.

    Yeah, this is part of what is keeping the Legacy off the list this time around. I like to have some variation in my life.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I don't think that continuing to repeat these generalizations as though they are absolute facts 100% of the time is getting us anywhere that's productive. Let's move on, please.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "Just saw a review of the Sebring vs. G6 vs. Mustang convertibles in C/D. Sebring was last. Again. G6 came out on top, due to its superior [non-permissible content removed]. (Uh, need to read the review to see what that means.)"

    I really like the G6 over most midsized cars, and most auto magazines seem to like it also, but what I don't like is that the Ecotech 4 cylinder is only available in the base model with an automatic. No manual transmission unless you go with the 3.6 L engine GXP model.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Because stick-shift rental cars aren't very popular?
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I'm not convinced of parent company Renault and Father Ghosn's approach to quality. It has gone down since I owned 2nd and 3rd Gen. Maximas

    renault has almost nothing to do with nissan. mostly it consists of cashing a very large check each year equal to 44% of nissans profit, at least what they pay out as a dividend. they actualy compete against each other in most countries.

    as for quality, yea, it has dropped a bit. But, they've already begun correcting that. just opened a couple quality control centers recently.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The G6 convertible is okay but I am not too crazy about its interior. The biggest complaint over others I have is its trunk. With the top down, or up, there are hardly any trunk space available.

    I have not driven the Sebring convertible yet but between the G6 and the Mustang, I would take the Mustang convertible - personal perference.
  • ilikecars23ilikecars23 Member Posts: 28
    Just when i thought GM was finally starting to get it right, i scramble upon this:

    The powertrain is similar to the Saturn Aura Green Line hybrid sedan, and new 2008 EPA figures have mileage rated at 24 mpg in the city and 32 mpg on the highway. These figures aren’t as high as other hybrids, like the Toyota Camry, but it does achieve better mileage than the standard four-cylinder Malibu — by 2 mpg — while producing more power.
    While the 2008 Malibu will offer a six-speed automatic transmission for the standard gasoline-powered four-cylinder, the hybrid will feature only a four-speed automatic transmission.

    With only a 2mpg gain and an outdated 4sp auto this car seems doomed before it even goes on sale. Who is gonna pay a premium over a 4cyl malibu which only has 2mpg less than the hybrid and also features a 6sp auto?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I have been reading daily, but haven't been posting nearly as much lately. Hope everyone had a happy 4th!
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    How many miles were on your Honda when the tranny quit??

    How do people know that the replacement tranny (probably a rebuilt) won't suffer the same fate in as many miles as the original tranny?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    One of the Ford guys can correct me if I am wrong but I think the limitation is that the Fusion has 3 channel ABS vs 4 channel (it looks at the rear wheels together) so there is no functionality to individually control the rear brakes. I am not positive about this though.


    Correct. Two channels for the front and one for the rear. As posted by someone else, this will be addressed shortly to comply with Federal mandates.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    How do people know that the replacement tranny (probably a rebuilt) won't suffer the same fate in as many miles as the original tranny?

    And that would be around 130k miles which is past the extended warranty and less than andres3's 300k mile reliable/unreliable line. :P

    No matter what we say andres3 is still going to think Honda will pay to replace that tranny after 130k miles, pay for his kids college education, pay for his retirement beach house, etc., etc. :D

    Just joking with you andres3. You're passionate about your car and that's a good thing. Just keep in mind that other people too, are passionate about their cars around here and we don't all own Accords (Thank God!!! :P ).
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    So it is better for Ford to offer ABS as a standalone option on all trim levels, and not offer ESC at all on any trim, than it is for Honda to include ABS as standard on all trims and include ESC as standard on all V6 models???

    What it is, is obnoxious to make a safety feature available only on higher priced models, for no good reason. It is unfortunate that apparently Ford chose not to design the Fusion with ESC availability in mind, which seems to be the reason it is not offered at any trim level, based on the 3 channel ABS comment someone made. It is obnoxious for Honda to design the Accord so that ESC can be available, but then say you can only have this great new safety feature if you pay up for a V6 that you do not want.

    Similarly, to the extent AWD is a safety feature, I think it is obnoxious of Ford to only have this available on the V6 models. OTOH, AWD is not available on any Accord so it was an accross-the-board design decision to not have AWD on the Accord which is different from saying you can only have it with some other upgrade.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    I've used a couple of Sebrings for business travel. Can't say they're that bad. Performance is adequate with the 2.7 V6. The one thing they do very well - they get great fuel economy - consistently well above their EPA ratings.

    Regards:
    Oldengineer
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Similarly, to the extent AWD is a safety feature, I think it is obnoxious of Ford to only have this available on the V6 models. OTOH, AWD is not available on any Accord so it was an accross-the-board design decision to not have AWD on the Accord which is different from saying you can only have it with some other upgrade.

    Jeffy,

    Some will argue about whether AWD is a safety feature -- it has no effect when it comes to stopping the car -- but it does improve handling in snow and on wet roads.

    There is a terrible gas mileage penalty associated with AWD. Our 2007 SEL AWD Fusion can only muster a very consistent 14.8 mpg in all-city driving, which is 95 percent of our travel. The car is seven months old and has 3,700 miles on it.

    In retrospect (hindsight is always 20-20), I wish we had bought an I4 with either a five-speed manual or a five-speed automatic, just for the gas mileage.

    The revised, 2008 EPA estimate for this power train is only 17 mpg city; 24 mpg highway. Heck, some V8 SUVs do that.

    I doubt if Ford's 2.3-liter, 160-horsepower I4 has enough power to handle AWD. Maybe that's why it is only offered on the V6.

    Electronic Stability Control will be mandatory on all 2012 models sold in the U.S., as per the government.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I would guess at least 90% of people these days don't keep their cars past 120k, nevermind 187k. ...

    thene,

    That's a safe bet. It's also likely that mid-size sedan owners probably keep their vehicles for an "average" time and mileage, whatever those numbers might be, since mid-size sedans are sort of "average" to begin with.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    There is a terrible gas mileage penalty associated with AWD. Our 2007 SEL AWD Fusion can only muster a very consistent 14.8 mpg in all-city driving, which is 95 percent of our travel. The car is seven months old and has 3,700 miles on it.

    I think the gas mileage penalty varies by vehicle. The Subaru Legacy with the 2.5 L 168 hp engine (yes slightly less than the Honda Accord but basically comparable) is rated at 22/30, while our wagon regularly achieves low 30s. The car has been phenominal in winter travels thus far, even just getting out of an unplowed subdivision is much easier.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    I've never owned an AWD but have friends who have driven them for years. The all agree that AWD helped the car get going but it doesn't do anything to improve stopping power or handling.

    The cars that run off the road during snowy conditions in CT are usually SUV's. The drivers have a false sense of security, thinking AWD will keep their car under control.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Some will argue about whether AWD is a safety feature -- it has no effect when it comes to stopping the car -- but it does improve handling in snow and on wet roads.

    I actually think it is of limited value as a safety feature myself. I think ESC is much more effective and also costs a lot less both initially and in not having a gas mileage penalty.

    However, I have seen some data at iihs.org that shows somewhat better injury or death stats for the same car with AWD vs. FWD. Not much to go on as there were only a couple of models in the data that I saw.

    As for the power of the I4 being adequate, Legacy is about the same weight and has only slightly higher HP and torque than the Fusion.
  • caazcaaz Member Posts: 209
    I'm not suew what magazine Andres reads...but, the Sonata is right on paer with the camcord..in almost every category, except comfort and size, which is actually superior, As far as Looks go?,, its almost a clone to the accord, so if you think the accord is good looking, so is the Sonata..which looks extremly similar in looks. You need to read Car&Drivers take on the Sonata, as well as R&T Automobile etc...they seem to think its a fantastic car
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    What's snow?

    Here in the Southeast there are lots of rain events that AWD comes in handy for.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I actually think it is of limited value as a safety feature myself. I think ESC is much more effective and also costs a lot less both initially and in not having a gas mileage penalty.

    I agree. I believe it is a positive thing that this technology will be mandated by the government for the 2012 models and beyond.

    Anybody know which of the mid-size sedans have ESC available now, even as an extra-cost option? Didn't someone say it was an available option on the V6 Accord?
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Andre doesn't speak for the rest of us. I think the general feeling is that the Sonata is a competent car, but has its quirks and issues as much as any car out there. For every positive review you cite, I could counter those with many others that pull the Sonatafest back to earth.

    The Sonata's obvious advantage is its price. But not every buyer is pleased with the total package, as evidenced by Sonata's below average sales.

    The car needs some tweaks. So does the Accord. In 2 months we'll be able to see how Honda counters this Korean competition that obviously wasn't there when Honda last redesigned the Accord.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    IIHS provide ESC infomation for the cars they have tested. Most of the cars discussed here are listed at:

    http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=30

    Where it is optional, this does not tell you whether you can add it as a stand alone option or if it requires other upgrades (such as the V6 requirement for the Accord...BTW, it is standard on their V6).
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The cars that run off the road during snowy conditions in CT are usually SUV's. The drivers have a false sense of security, thinking AWD will keep their car under control.

    Many SUVs have 4WD not AWD, a slightly different, more archaic system which requires manually activating the transfer case and second drive axle. I don't think there is any requirement to have all the wheels driven for someone to be foolish with an SUV. There may be some self selection criteria in that demographic.

    In my experience, the first ones in the ditch after a snow are conversion vans (sometimes I think Ohio state troopers park vans on the side of the road at odd angles to remind people to slow in bad weather), followed by high horsepower rear drive vehicles. When I start to see cars discussed in this forum that don't have southern/out-of-state plates in ditches, I get more concerned.

    And a small caveat, AWD will help with turning, as it transfers power to the outside wheels on a turn, providing better turn-in and rotation. It optimizes traction, as opposed to DSC which just lowers the limits of the vehicle.
  • jaffeejaffee Member Posts: 10
    I have been looking to purchase either a Legacy sedan or Accord. I believe that the 2007 V6 models on these two cars have ESC as a standard feature and that neither of the 2007 4 cylinder models have it. The 2008 Legacy is out now, and some 4 cylinder models have ESC (Subaru has a different name for it). The 2008 Accords won't be out until probably Sept and I suspect that with a new design, ESC will be included with some if not all 4 cyclinder Accords.

    I read in CR that the Subaru stability control is "slow to react" so I don't know how effective that system is.

    I'm waiting until the new Accords are out to make my purchase, and I still haven't decided if I really need AWD. I hate to sacrifice the fuel economy if it isn't necessary to do so.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    It optimizes traction, as opposed to DSC which just lowers the limits of the vehicle.

    Is DSC (?) the same thing as Electronic Stability Control (ESC)?
  • jaffeejaffee Member Posts: 10
    This link gives the various names used by the different car companies for their ESC

    ">link title http://www.iihs.org/ratings/esc_names.html
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    And a small caveat, AWD will help with turning, as it transfers power to the outside wheels on a turn, providing better turn-in and rotation. It optimizes traction, as opposed to DSC which just lowers the limits of the vehicle.

    That was my feeling when I had a Subaru Legacy and when I test drove the Mazdaspeed6... I could get on the accelerator right at the apex whereas in my fwd mazda6, I have to wait a little longer or I'll have more understeer than I'd like to deal with. I do find that AWD does more than just help in wet or slippery weather; it also helps handling.

    As far as mpg is concerned, I did find that my 2.5 liter in my subie (an automatic) was a bit thirsty as I am now getting the same or better mpg in my v-6 mazda6 (manual tranny). I should note though, my friend with a 4 cylinder outback is getting better mileage than my legacy (which was a 96), so perhaps subaru has improved mpg on that engine.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Thanks. Very helpful.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I read in CR that the Subaru stability control is "slow to react" so I don't know how effective that system is.

    That might mean it is better from my perspective as a driver. I have read that some systems are overly invasive...was it the Sonata or Camry (or both) that some had commented about in this regard???

    We have a VW with ESC (they call it ESP). Theirs seems like a good system (not to quick to intrude) from our experience and from what I have read of it. I would guess that cars that are more oriented toward being a "driver's car" will be more likely to perhaps have better (less invasive) systems. I would put include cars like the Mada6, Accord, and Fusion in that category and I guess Legacy is going more in that direction...but I guess we will see over time what type of systems they end up with.

    As ESC becomes universal, the differences will probably be highlighted in reviews...CR may have the opposite view from reviewers at Edmunds (for example) as to which systems are better.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    You need to read Car&Drivers take on the Sonata, as well as R&T Automobile etc...they seem to think its a fantastic car

    I'm not suew what magazine Andres reads...but, the Sonata is right on paer with the camcord.

    Apparently he doesn't read those magazines.

    The Sonata lost out in comparison tests to the Accord in both Motor Trend and Car and Driver. It didn't come in last, but it wasn't on par with Accord "accord"ing to the magazine testers.

    I'm not trying to say the Sonata is bad; it isn't at all.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    You need to read Car&Drivers take on the Sonata, as well as R&T Automobile etc...they seem to think its a fantastic car


    I just received the latest MT in the mail today and they have their long-term wrap-up of the Sonata in this issue. I haven't read it yet but I did scan it and it seems that they think it is a nice car, not "fantastic" as you say. However, they do seem to think it is a fantastic value. And that is it's key selling point IMO.

    For the record, I do like the Sonata but wouldn't buy one for myself. Like the Fusion and Camry, no MTX with the V6.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Here's a list of all 2007 vehicles sold in the U.S. that have ESC as either standard or optional. Unfortunately, it's not 100% correct (e.g. says Elantra has ESC optional, which is not true for the U.S.) but it's probably pretty close.

    http://www.safercar.gov/pages/ESC-EquippedVehicles-2007.html
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Sonota also has the highest repair cost in the category, according to an article on MSN Autos. For example, a front-end collision was estimated to cost about $4K, significantly more than other cars in the category.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "And a small caveat, AWD will help with turning, as it transfers power to the outside wheels on a turn, providing better turn-in and rotation. It optimizes traction, as opposed to DSC which just lowers the limits of the vehicle."

    Your statement is mostly incorrect. A 4WD system such as QuadraDrive can help with turning, because QuadraDrive can deliver almost all torque to one wheel (not counting when the transfer case is locked). And unlike AWD QuadraDrive can aid in slowing the vehicle down. AWD in general (not including SH-AWD) delivers power to front and rear to all four whells and does not help with turning because it can not compensate for wheels that slip. (excepting those cars, which have LSDs on the rear)

    DSC does not lower the limmits of the vehicle, it makes sure you don't exceed the limits of the vehicle, which is a different story. In addition, it attempts to keep the car moving in the direction of the front-wheels by activating brakes individually on 4 channel systems. Something the driver cannot do.

    As far as what vehicles end up in the ditch, nobody is immune. The last two years of snow storms, I've seen Lexus, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai all suffering the same "ditch" or run off the road fate.

    Actually I posted a link about a Subaru-centric test of AWD cars, it's an interesting watch. Murano AWD system was about useless, Subaru was about the best.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sonota also has the highest repair cost in the category...

    That is incorrect, if MSN Autos was referring to the IIHS crash study done earlier this year. In that study, the Sonata did have higher frontal collision repair costs than most (not all) of the other cars tested, but it had relatively low rear repair costs, so its total repair costs were lower than for the Accord and some other models. Here is the original release from the IIHS:

    http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr030107.html
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I do like the Sonata but wouldn't buy one for myself

    I think many others feel the same way. I got my eye on the Genesis and wonder when push comes to shove, I'll actually buy the car instead of saying I like it, but end up buying something else.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    DSC does not lower the limmits of the vehicle, it makes sure you don't exceed the limits of the vehicle, which is a different story. In addition, it attempts to keep the car moving in the direction of the front-wheels by activating brakes individually on 4 channel systems. Something the driver cannot do

    What is the advantage of braking a single, totally unloaded wheel? Its too bad physics is no longer part of high school curriculum.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    DSC does not lower the limmits of the vehicle, it makes sure you don't exceed the limits of the vehicle, which is a different story.

    I think this is true for a good system. However, I gave up debating ESC issues here some time ago...

    As far as what vehicles end up in the ditch, nobody is immune.

    Perhaps, but the most amusing cases are those with 4 wheel drive SUVs, for a variety of reasons.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What is the advantage of braking a single, totally unloaded wheel?

    Why do you keep saying this? None of the wheels are totally unloaded unless they're off the pavement. The inside wheels will have a little less weight than the outside wheels in a turn but they are nowhere near "totally unloaded".
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