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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I bet ya there are owners of the Ford Fusion which would pay $2,200 for a Honda engine instead of a four banger, or for that matter the Ford V6. And when you get the SE V6 Accord you get a lot of stuff, including the alloy wheels with Michelin tires (17" cost enough, thank you, I see no need for the cost of 18" wheels, nor the extra unsprung weight) and it has stability control, and windows which can be lowered with the electronic key. An SE has a 5 sp transmission, which seems to work just fine. And no it doesn't had auto climate control, but then again, I can move the little dial for cooler or warmer, without it taxing my mind. Dimming mirror sounds a bit interesting, though I prefer, unless too painful, to have the better view behind me, and only adjust for those SUV and trucks with the taller light positions, which should be illegal. As for seats, it doesn't have lumbar support, and that is something which was an oversight on Honda's part -- should have been standard. The car is identical priced to the Aura XR. Well, at the time of purchase. In five years, we can pretty well do an educated guess as to which has the greater value. Aura XR is a pretty neat little ride -- pretty quick, with a sharp enough handling to satisfy most people. As for XE and XR pricing difference being more than a motor, the same holds for Accord SE i4 and V6. The i4 doesn't have stability control, for example. Not sure about the 2008 models.

    As for tires, I don't think Honda is going to use any cheap tire, but I could be wrong. Will have to look around next visit. Hyundai seems to use all Michelin's. I set a personal record for wear with a GM car in '86, as it had Goodyear Customs, which wore down in 8,000 miles. Never topped that one :sick: Loren
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Try comparing similar models and see what you come up with.

    Honda brings out the Value Package halfway through its life-cycle. Otherwise, compare an LX to an LX to get an idea on pricing. What you've posted is a sly way of implying that all Accord trims will have that price increase, when in fact, they have just done away with the cheapie level altogether.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Sorry, didn't know they were changing the base model. I also am not familiar with the history of the "value package".

    No "slyness" intended on my part...not sure why edmunds did not clarify the change in base models in the article. Still, that is a pretty hefty increase in the minimum entry price.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    You need to drive the Accord and [almost] every other midsizer in this segment before making that statement.

    I have, and though its a very nice car, I don't see the benchmark thing.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    What is more significant in this or any other segment than a vehicle that will likely be sold 400,000 times or so

    I read the article wehre the guy in charge of honda NA made that prediction. I'm skeptical, and guess that to be more wishfull thinking than anything else. Not that the car itself will be the reason, but sales of midsize cars have been dropping for a decade now, and is still falling. People want smaller and more fuel efficent. about the only way any manufacture can incrase their sales units in the midsize section is by taking from the other guy. considering the domestics +hyundai/kia and the rest have probably been beat down now about as much as they can be, you only have the altima and camry to take away from. and thats a pretty tall order even for honda. Add to the mix the current econmic climate, the high probability that the economy will continue to slow if not slip into recession and that 400k copies seems even less likely. I don't think the next couple of years is going to be very bright for any of the automakers. going to be real tough to start posting record sales with a vehicle that likely wont be discounted at all.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Just get the 225/55R16 instead of the 205/60R16. The difference in sidewall height is less than 1mm (123.0 vs. 123.75) and should work just fine. The Kumho Ecsta SPT is only $82 in that size.

    Do you think that will fit on my stock rim width and clear the suspension components?

    That might actually be a viable alternative.
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    I'm coming in late to this conversation, but when has the Camry ever needed $4k in discounts to sell?
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I also wonder where they're comming up with their prices. acording to toyota's website, the camry goes from 18570 to 25000. how do you add 10 grand in options? I built one selecting every single option, even stuff like first aid kit, wheel locks, sport peddals, ect, and couldnt get it over 34k. and most of that stuff is just accesories.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    It seems that to some people the Accord and Camry can do no right. If there are no discounts, the prices are too high. If there are discounts/incentives they are doing it because of competition from the number 5 and 6 sellers. The Camry, Accord, and Altima are each others main competition, and are priced to compete with each other. These cars are not priced to compete with Malibu, Sonata, or Fusion, and should not be.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    I dont know that we can call the Accord a benchmark when it really isnt offering anything not offered on the competition and is not offering quite a few things offered on the competition. What we can say is that the 2008 model is adding a lot of features it should've had a while ago and has essentially caught up to the competition.

    Accord's sales have dropped for the lastr 3 years or so, I'm not sure why you are saying they dont need to increase share. The sales gap between accord and camry has only gotten larger in recent years."

    A benchmark does not mean that it has features no other car has. In fact today, there is no car (in any segment) that as exclusive features.

    The Accord has been a gold standard in the midsize segment and is considered a benchmark by most of the automotive press.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "Point is the fact that the camry needs $4k in discounts to sell ANY time is a testament to the fact that the car is priced too high."

    Are there 4k rebates/discounts on the Camry? I would be quite surprised if this was true. Please don't tell me you are counting from MSRP downwards.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Check the prices again. For example, the Camry XLE V6 starts at $28,720 before any options, and is $31,520 with options like VSC, heated seats, nav, and smart key. Without nav and smart key it is still just under $30k. Is there $6000 more value there than on a car like the Aura or Sonata?
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "You are missing my point here, Honda is charging $2200 for the engine ONLY. Compare XR and XE and you will see they are separeted by more than a motor. You didnt mention that 6 speed auto, 18" wheels, stability, auto climate control, 8 way seat, 6 CD changer, premium sound system and auto dimming mirror are included in the $3500 premium you pay for the XR. Not quite the same as what Honda is doing with the Accord. On the Fusion I think a V6 is worth about $1000-$1500 at the most."

    Or it could be the other way around - Saturn is making a lot of money on the lower end XE than the XR - adding a V6 and all those extras for only 2k!

    In most cars that offer a choice of engines (except GM/Ford whose base engines are ancient, though GM is righting that now), there is a 2-3k difference in price. I don't see why you are so surprised if this is the case with the Accord as well.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "No "slyness" intended on my part.."

    Don't buy that; hard to believe you would not pick LX vs LX in marking out pricing differences. Its pretty basic stuff.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "It seems that to some people the Accord and Camry can do no right. If there are no discounts, the prices are too high. If there are discounts/incentives they are doing it because of competition from the number 5 and 6 sellers"

    Don't worry on that account Elroy - for more than 800k people every year the Accord and Camry do just fine. What we are delaing with here is a group of people who just don't like the Accord OR the Camry - nothing can change that. Even before the 08 Accord came out, I can bet most of us knew what their comments would be.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    Last year 481k Americans saw this value - thousands make this decision everymonth and even more if you count Accord and Altima buyers.

    There are others who compare features and decide that cars are equal and buy the cheaper ones - more power to them.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    In fact today, there is no car (in any segment) that as exclusive features.

    That is untrue. Counter-examples are the Fit's magic seats (unique in the low-end car segment), the Elantra SE's standard ESC (unique in the economy car segment), the Altima I4's standard 6-speed MT (unique in the mid-sized class), and the Chrysler minivans' Stow-and-Go and, now, pop-up rear table with swivel middle seats.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "Unless there is another engine sludge episode"

    A case of sour grapes?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How many Camry and Accord (and Altima) buyers bought their cars at huge discounts last year? Maybe not as much value there as Toyota, Honda, and Nissan would lead us to believe. ;)

    I am really curious to see how the new Accord will sell without the incentives it's had for the past couple of years... and how long it takes for incentives to return. That will tell us how good it really is, and how loyal the Honda fans are.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "That is untrue. Counter-examples are the Fit's magic seats (unique in the low-end car segment), the Elantra SE's standard ESC (unique in the economy car segment), the Altima I4's standard 6-speed MT (unique in the mid-sized class), and the Chrysler minivans' Stow-and-Go and, now, pop-up rear table with swivel middle seats."

    This is just nit picking, very small differences. Elantra has standard ESC, but not exclusive ESC. Other cars in its range have this feature available.
    That way I can say Accord has cylinder deactivation exclusive, or a 190HP I4 exclusive, or ESP across the line; however I don't see these as maor differences making any car a benchmark.

    Would you say the Fit is a benchmark because it has magic seats, or is the Elantra a benchmark because it has ESP standard, or the Chrysler minivans are benchmarks because of these features? No sir.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "How many Camry and Accord (and Altima) buyers bought their cars at huge discounts last year? Maybe not as much value there as Toyota, Honda, and Nissan would lead us to believe.

    I am really curious to see how the new Accord will sell without the incentives it's had for the past couple of years... and how long it takes for incentives to return. That will tell us how good it really is, and how loyal the Honda fans are."

    And how many Sonata buyers have bought with discounts/rebates ever since the present model was launched (each and everyone)? Would you say there have been more disocunts on the Accord than on the Sonata? Not much value as Hyundai would have us believe.
  • ridezx11ridezx11 Member Posts: 6
    My 2003 had the 205/60-16 tires and I was able to replace them with a set of 2007 Accord rims and tires that I bought off of ebay for the price of new tires. The tires had little if any wear and the rims were spotless. The speedometer difference is only 0.9% difference which works out to about 1/2 mph at 60. This is well within the margin of error of factory speedometers. This gives me more options when I need new tires and better looking rims IMHO.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    When the 06 Sonata came out many said it was a world beater, and was going to make BIG waves in the midsize segment. I've seen bigger waves in the kiddie pool. I think people went to the Hyundai dealer looking for a deal, and believed everything the salesmen told them. All hype, no substance.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The statement was that no car in any class has an exclusive feature. Like most sweeping statements, it's not true. I don't think it's nit-picking to point that out. Maybe it's nitpicking to challenge hard facts?

    The Fit's magic seats are certainly unique in its class, and a distinguishing feature--whether it alone makes the Fit the benchmark for low-end cars is debatable. And Stow-and-Go is certainly a unique feature. And having standard ESC is an important feature--but one that the Accord does not have for its class, btw (Sonata beat it to the punch by 2-1/2 years).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Why do you suppose Honda and Toyota had to offer such big discounts on their mid-sized cars in the past two years? Was it out of the goodness of their hearts? Or maybe it was because of intense price competition from cars like the Sonata and Optima that have become very competitive in that time? And might that constitute more than a ripple in the kiddie pool?
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The Accord, Camry, and Altima are being discounted because they are competing with each other, and trying to outsell each other. The Sonata and Optima have no effect at all, IMO. The big fish are fighting amongst themselves, to see who will eat the most little fish. ;) You can say the Sonata and Optima are competitive, but they are not where it counts, SALES.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    1487 is the Anti-Accord. Need to get him into the Anti Accord Anonymous right away for a meeting. ;)

    just trying to be helpful, Loren
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    jd10013,

    I think what they must be talking about is a fully loaded camry hybrid or and xle......which I assume would be around $35k. That is not very expensive compared to a lot of other cars, especially when you get a very nice fully loaded car.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Drive the Sonata, and Accord V6 the same day. Test used ones, so you can punch the gas, take a few corners in each, seek out some bumps along the way, then get back to us with your conclusion. I am thinking you will find the Accord a notch above the Sonata. Not saying the Sonata is not a value priced item. Just taken through the paces of stop - go, turn, for the road test, then a good look around of interiors, and my bet is that the winner is not Sonata. The Aura XR comes closer for performance, though is a tad smaller inside than the Accord, and of course smaller than the Sonata. Sonata does have room inside. All three have some good points to them. My Accord has ESC, but the i4 engine Accords do not. Actually, this is or was the Sonata selling point, from warranty to most features per dollar, we have it. Yeap, this is so. As for being as good a car, I think not. It is close, but no cigar. Now, if bought at the right price, would it be a darn good buy for most people? Well, value has its place in the car world, and Sonata is certainly there -- buyer decision of say almost as good for thousands less up front, with thousand lost when later sold.
    Seems to be a wash in a way. L
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Is there $6000 more value there than on a car like the Aura or Sonata?

    Now c'mon backy, you know better than this! One person's value system is not the same as mine or yours. We've hashed this out with a mysteriously quiet Ford owner before - you right here with me!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I only asked the question. I didn't answer it. That's for each buyer to decide for himself/herself.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm sorry, I had just had some eerie flashbacks to a turmoiltuous forum... Indeed you didnt answer it; just seemed to imply otherwise.

    I think I'm just a little TOO tired to be on here tonight and am heading to bed! (School and Work for 12 hours does that - even to this 20 year old!).

    Night all! :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I drove the 2006 Sonata GLS I4 and Accord EX I4 back to back over the exact same course. I wrote a detailed review at the time, in another discussion. My conclusion was that the Sonata out-pointed the Accord, based on my criteria for mid-sized cars. My main issues with the Accord were a feel-every-bump ride (I know, some people like that; I don't); much less interior room; a cave-like interior with cheap-looking cloth (no longer an issue); lack of ESC (no longer an issue); and a much higher price. Also the Accord was the car with the rattles, interestingly enough (both were brand new, off dealer lots). And there's that Hyundai warranty of course. I also prefer the looks of the Sonata to the 2006-7 Accord (and the new Accord, for that matter), although I do like the dash on the Accord better, and it does have superior handling and slightly better fuel economy. But who knows, I might find the 2008 Accord tops the Sonata.

    The moral is, each buyer has to drive the cars against their criteria and see what comes out on top for them, and if it's the more expensive car, then how much is the difference worth to them?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I would say the top line Camry and the Tundra trucks may very well be overpriced. Not sure a $4K off sticker is enough to make them a buy or not. I certainly would not pay $26K for a Camry. But then again, I would not pay $34K to $45K for a CTS. I would say a Camry is worth up to $24K and a CTS perhaps $30K. A Sonata is perhaps worth up to $20K if loaded up. And a Fusion, perhaps is worth somewhere around $20K to 21K. The coming months should tell, if car sales really - really slide. And no, a Camry top of the line, is a bit out of control price wise. This is not a luxury car. What is a BMW3 now, say starting at $34k? Considering the Euro vs Dollar, those seem inexpensive. A fine RWD car, with world class handling is worth a lot more than a Camry XLE.
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    For a ride which absorbs the bumps, and is more smooth / easy going, perhaps one may consider the Camry. It tested a Sonata, and thought it had hit the stops a couple times, when impacting some holes and bumps in the road. Could be wrong, it made some sort of sound which was just like hitting the end of the shock travel. Yes, a Sonata seems very roomy. And you could also get an Azera for the Camry price. One thing though which is worrisome for those owners is lack of retail sales. Seems like Sonata and Azeras are not selling like they should. Many fleet sales of Sonatas to make up the difference. Could be just me, but it seems like a lot of buzz and some good sales going on for the Sonata, then it kinda hit the wall. It is a very crowded market. Have you noticed less Hyundai ads and more Kia these days, or is that just around my area? Oh yeah, I am kinda liking the looks of the Elantra these days. Nice looking smaller car.
    L
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    the dealer didn't have v6 yet, so i test drove graphite on grey LX.

    and what a let down.

    it just felt like a bigger civic to me. i no longer want anything to do with 4 cylinders. accord felt like a civic's brother and i certainly didn't felt any of 177hp. i'm not even sure if i liked it more than the previous gen lx. interior looked great in person, but the over all interior volume looked about the same. i thought it became bigger, but i didn't see or feel any difference inside. the cloth was too smooth IMO. it's almost slippery.

    well, i'm going to test drive v6 whenever it comes out. but overall i'm thoroughly disappointed by honda. i would take the last gen's v6 over any 08's cylinder combination in a heartbeat. and the price is about the same anyway. probably cheaper because i can get a loaded exl v6 without the leather under 23k OTD. :)

    anyway, i test drove azera again shortly after my trip to honda dealer. loved everything about it except the green interior light. what a turn off..

    gosh, there is no car out there for me..

    oh by the way, i'm test driving because i'm trading my 06 civic. we need something bigger.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    I sure agree with you on the Starfire. I had a 75 model, and, the brakes were so under designed, they were dangerous. I know GM is now building some nice stuff, but, I still can't bring myself to buy it. I really got burned on my last new GM car - an 85 Celebrity. You know how bad they were. To win me back, they're going to have to show me products that are well engineered, reliable, pleasingly styled, and a better value than the competition.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    My 2003 had the 205/60-16 tires and I was able to replace them with a set of 2007 Accord rims and tires that I bought off of ebay for the price of new tires. The tires had little if any wear and the rims were spotless. The speedometer difference is only 0.9% difference which works out to about 1/2 mph at 60. This is well within the margin of error of factory speedometers. This gives me more options when I need new tires and better looking rims IMHO.

    Did you get 17" wheels? I am pretty sure this is my only option at this point, and throwing some snow tire on the old rim or something.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I just don't like the Camry that much. IMO quality has declined from past generations (esp. the interior), I don't like the looks, the ride is too soft (haven't tried the SE), and key features I want particularly VSC are options. I just don't see spending a lot more for it than for something like the Optima (which btw has bested the Camry I4 in several pro comparos).

    I am not worried about sales volumes. If I were, I'd buy an F Series or Silverado. ;) Sonatas and Optimas will not outsell Camcords anytime in the forseeable future, and that's not an issue as far as I am concerned. Little known fact that Hyundai has just about maxed out their production in Alabama, which makes Sonatas and Santa Fes. They did that while cutting back on Sonata rental sales compared to prior years. I've seen just as many Camrys in the Hertz lots lately as I have Sonatas. No one talks about that though. I don't see many ads for ANY cars lately, as I just don't watch much commercial TV anymore. No time, not much worth seeing. I'd rather watch a good movie.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    You didn't by any chance have the stick shift Starfire? It was so funny. You have to almost use two feet to depress the clutch, it was just so stiff. After a number of years, the plate which held the cable pulled straight on through the firewall. They welded on a plate and replace the cable line. One day, a friend jumps in the car, and pulls the door handle to close the door. It just came off. I looked at it and it was but a screw into who knows what, say cardboard. The car was the lime green metallic, and did look very cool when new. Thinking I was so smart to save money, and have an easier car to work on, I bought it without air conditioning. Well, let's just say, not the best of ideas on my part. Those Las Vegas trips got pretty hot. Olds. suspensions just ate the front tires like crazy. Oh well, I had fun, and it would not go fast enough to need much brake power. It had those matching color wheels -- woo-hoo! In 1977 model year, they counterbalanced the engine. Of course my car was the '76. Guess I should have gone all out and got a Datsun Z car, or something else. The Porsche 914 was cool, but only quick enough I guess, with that optional six engine. And there would go the price. Then came the Porsche 924 with the Audi truck engine. Ya know, come to think of it, things sure got weird. Jimmy Carter was president, there for awhile, and then there was disco. Heck, the only thing still normal was a Corvette ;) Well until
    the power meltdown. Oh yeah, the 80 MPH speedometers in Vettes and all cars, for that matter. Good God, I am having a flashback to 55 MPH speed limits. I best look ahead -- never back to that time. :surprise:

    Fast forward to today. Well the Corvette is looking good, but I don't have that sort of spare change at the moment. The '07 CTS was pretty neat, but then again, a bit pricey, and I am not sold on it being worth the price, though it may well be. Those GM cars of Epsilon aren't so bad, as long as you avoid the ones with electric assist steering. Heck, most of the GM stuff is not too bad category. The new and exciting below $25K price stuff is yet to come, as in the RWD cars. Sure the New Malibu and other Epsilons are adequate, to very good, but I am talking something new and enticing, like perhaps the Aussie cars, or the Impala to come. There is the new stuff =2009?
    L
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    Could you please elaborate as to why you wouldn't pay $26k for a Camry or $45k for a CTS.....I am curious as to why. Is that out of your price range? Or do you think paying that much for a car is ridiculous.

    So...is a $70k for a Corvette overpriced too? "Nicer" cars tend to cost more. Some people are happy spending $10 on a watch, whereas others prefer to spend $10,000 on a nicer watch. To each his own I guess.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    In most cars that offer a choice of engines (except GM/Ford whose base engines are ancient...

    The Fusion's 2.3L base engine is "ancient"? From what I can tell the original design is maybe 1 year older than Accord's 4 cyl.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I think I'm just a little TOO tired to be on here tonight and am heading to bed! (School and Work for 12 hours does that - even to this 20 year old!).

    Must be those old man cars you drive grad. :P
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "That the 2008 has added features that it 'should've had a while ago' seems like an odd statement. They added features because it is a new model. They did not add them a 'while ago' because they haven't brought out an all-new Accord since 2003."

    There is nothing odd about the statemtnt at all. The new Accord has caught up to 2007 Camry and Altima in power and features and thus I do not see what the big deal is supposed to be. Its great for an Accord since the current model is lacking so many features but its not offering anything new.

    If we are basing "benchmark" status on sales I fail to see how the #2 car is the one to beat. Care to explain that one?
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "I'm coming in late to this conversation, but when has the Camry ever needed $4k in discounts to sell? "

    right now. Look at Edmunds TMV or your local paper if you have doubts. Camrys arent selling for anywhere near MSRP.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "The Camry, Accord, and Altima are each others main competition, and are priced to compete with each other. These cars are not priced to compete with Malibu, Sonata, or Fusion, and should not be. "

    Um, why should they not be? They are not head and shoulders above the competition anymore. They are very competent cars as are most cars in this class. I think the '08 Malibu is very competitive and can stand toe to toe with any of those three cars you have on a pedastal. Sales dont mean much in terms of best in class. Just look at pickups or small car sales. Corolla is best selling small car but few would say its the best small car on the market.

    As for Altima sales, it should be noted that the Impala outsold it last year and will this year as well. Not sure why you are saying the three japanese cars are in a class alone.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "The Accord has been a gold standard in the midsize segment and is considered a benchmark by most of the automotive press. "

    Actually just C&D. I would love for you to find the last comparison test the Accord won in another publication. MT, Edmunds, Motorweek and others do not consider the current car the benchmark. MT just gave the new model a SLIGHT edge over the Camry SE but the newest car in the segment is often the best for a short time. The Current Accord is a good car in a field of good cars. Its design, performance and mileage were all about average and its feature content/value equation were below average.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Are there 4k rebates/discounts on the Camry? I would be quite surprised if this was true. Please don't tell me you are counting from MSRP downwards. "

    I did not say FACTORY REBATES, I am saying the actual selling price of a camry is $3k+ under MSRP these days. If the camry was another brand people would be saying Toyota has to "give them away" to keep volume up. A car that is in high demand doesnt need that kind of discounting to sell. The camrys natural volume is considerably lower than the 40k cars they are selling a month but its obvious that Toyota wants to keep sales very high.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    check the 2008 models and you will see what I am talking about. The 2008 EX-L 4 costs over $2k less than the EX-L V6 model with the same equipment.

    if you measure cheapness of tire by how quickly they were than high cost sports tires are the worst out there. Many of them last less than 20k miles. "cheap" non performance tires will likely last far longer than that, even if they are Korean. I never knew you were so against imported parts on a car since you are such a Honda fan.
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Although you so firmly believe Hyundai is an afterthought in this (or probably any other automotive size segment)please keep in mind that both Honda and Toyota have had decades (since at least 1976 for the Accord and 1985 for the Camry)to "sell" the buying public on the "goodness" of these cars. Hyundai is a new-comer". Were the early versions of these great cars? In a word..NO. The Honda's rusted out early on (still do in certain rust belt regions)and Toyota has had their problems also. Refer to the recent "sludge" problems. Refer also to transmission problems on the Odyssey. Do these problems deter zelots from buying Honda and Toyota again? Nope...the next one will be better (for sure) but for joe average who decided to try one of those brands because of all the hyperbole and got problems instead of goodness, well they are among those who decided to give Hyundai a try. What!!?? Honda or Toyota defectors?, happens all the time. So far Hyundai has avoided any major "Ooops!!" unlike Honda or Toyota.
    I am old enough to remember when the "big 3" thought the new comers from Japan with the funny names were minor irritants and could be mostly ignored...maybe the new comer from Korea shouldn't be.
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