Midsize Sedans 2.0

ridezx11

Sorry about the late reply, between work and kids I don't have alot of computer time. Yes I bought 17" wheels and I haven't figured out what I am going to do with my old 16" wheels(sitting in the corner of the garage right now). I have my 1995 Pathfinder for bad weather so I don't need them for snow tires. May end up trying to sell them eventually.

urnews

ALL these cars as well as ALL others have weaknesses.

Well I certainly agree there is no such animal as a perfect automobile, mid-size or otherwise. Some are just better than others. Some sell better than others. Some get higher ratings than others from reviewers. Etc., etc.

Except for poor in-city gasoline mileage, we like our 2007 3.0-liter V6 SEL AWD Ford Fusion just fine.

captain2

there is no doubt that Toyota controls the car business a position they earned by making better quality cars and correctly understanding that the American car buyer prefers 'big and soft'. GM, OTH, is only just beginning to understand that they really need to buy their funeral plot as well. And as 'life goes on' it is not even close to what Bill Gates does to us everyday!

thegraduate

Your Fusion delivered advertised figures on the highway which translates to the fact that it's not the car - its your route and driving style (short trips are a key factor here).

There's not much room to blame Ford for that, when your 2.0L Focus didn't do much better than 20 MPG.

captain2

Some get higher ratings than others from reviewers. Etc., etc.
and some mfgrs. have PAY for those reviews (or survey results) - the engine differences I was talking about are not differences however that can really be disputed and, yes, it is good that you are happy with your DT. For my part I doubt seriously that I would spend the money to insure your car after you gave it to me! Such is my personal distaste for that particular engine (and FTM the GM pushrods). As I said, we all have different values and priorities.....

jd10013

Last year 481k Americans saw this value

out of 4 million midsize cars sold. apparently there are a whole lot more people who don't see the value

jd10013

, there is no car (in any segment) that as exclusive features.

CVT

jd10013

They arn't really discounting the atlima much. a little bit more on the remaing 07's though. when I bought mine in feb, nissan wasn't offering dink. just 500 for college grads. at the end of the summer they added 500, but thats about it.

andres3

:mad: The powertrain is covered as long as you get the car checked every 5 years- its so simple anyone can do it.

WRONG!!!! :mad:

The powertrain isn't covered EVEN if you check it in every 5 years with them, UNLESS you are the first and original owner (please let us know why this is 1487), and UNLESS you make that 5 year checkup requirement within a very tiny 30 day window (why isn't this window of opportunity a more reasonable and appropriate 180 days?)

The whole Chrysler warranty smells of rotten rebate deals where you can only get your rebate check if you mail it in between the dates of the 13th and 15th of the month, only if those two days fall on a Tuesday or Thursday, and anything before or after is no good.

andres3

roadside assistance is like AAA coverage. Check it out- everyone but Toyota and Honda have it. They will come out for flat tires, dead batteries, etc. Oh wait, Hondas never get either one.

I suppose even Hondoytas can get flat tires or dead batteries, but at least with the Honda you won't have a dead battery when the car is brand new; it should last you 50 months. As for flat tires, that's what the spare is for, change it yourself!

andres3

If there is no limit to sales, why don't Honda and Toyota ramp up to sell twice as many Accords and Camrys? Just click their fingers, and *poof*, over 400,000 more sales each per year. They have plenty of money, after all. Or they could pay VW to make cars in Brazil or Germany, or Hyundai to make cars in Alabama... the possibilities are endless.

Wait a minute, your turning this whole thing around from the original point you were trying to make (incorrectly) You were trying to assert that the reason the Passat doesn't sell as well as the Accord or Camry is because they don't have the "capacity" to make 400,000 of them a year, and/or they don't have enough dealers. To which I pointed out that logically, they'd "find a way" to make 400,000 of them a year if they had customers willing to pay for them. The thing of it is, that if they made 400K, they wouldn't sell any more than what they currently sell, without further discounting...

andres3

Hmmm, I suppose it's possible to be exclusive in this segment with "negative" or "bad" features.

I suppose Chrsylers have a whole lot of exclusivity when it comes to falling apart.

jd10013

for being "negative" or bad, its driving altima sales in the neighborhood of +20%

andres3

Given that it is a first year redesign, Altima sales BETTER be up 20%.

Anyway, I'm not saying CVT is a bad thing... I haven't driven one yet, though I have ridden in one, and it seemed smooth enough; I'd have to drive it to make my own conclusion about CVT.

My initial thought is that they seem to not put up very good 0-60 times (which are better with the manual), but are good in the FE department.

elroy5

we need to separate the accord from being your fave car from it being the benchmark. Its obviously the former and obviosuly not the latter based on any objective evaluation.

When a car company decides to design their next midsize sedan it makes sense that they would try to emulate (benchmark) some of the qualities that make the top selling midsizer's (Camry/Accord) "benchmarks" so popular. Do you actually think any car company is looking to emulate the Malibu when designing a new midsize car?

You cannot force a dealer to give you KBB value- trust me. My brother and I both traded in cars recently and it does not work. Dealers have a lot of explanations, some of which are legit, as to why they are not going to hand over what KBB says. My car was not in demand but my brother's car was and he still got a grand less than KBB value.

These cars were obviously not a Camry or Accord.

03accordman

"The Fit's magic seats are certainly unique in its class, and a distinguishing feature--whether it alone makes the Fit the benchmark for low-end cars is debatable. And Stow-and-Go is certainly a unique feature. And having standard ESC is an important feature--but one that the Accord does not have for its class, btw (Sonata beat it to the punch by 2-1/2 years)."

As usual you digress when you have no facts. The discussion was about benchmarks and what makes them. Does a magic seat make a Fit the benchmark? No. Does standard ESC make Elantra a banchmark? No, far form it.

As for the Sonata beating the Accord - only in your wildest dreams.

03accordman

"Actually just C&D. I would love for you to find the last comparison test the Accord won in another publication. MT, Edmunds, Motorweek and others do not consider the current car the benchmark. MT just gave the new model a SLIGHT edge over the Camry SE but the newest car in the segment is often the best for a short time. The Current Accord is a good car in a field of good cars. Its design, performance and mileage were all about average and its feature content/value equation were below average"

The current Accord won most comparisons it was featured in, inlcuding ones on CD, RT, MT, AW etc. These ranged from the time it debuted till recently.

In the recent MT comparison that you quote, did you note the title of that comparison of the 08 Accord vs 08 Camry? It was 'battle of the benchmarks'. I am sure you would have noted it, bit surely you wouldn't mention it here, right?

m1miata

I am no fan of Fram, but the way I understand it those used at the dealerships are Fram. Is that really true in all the dealerships though? So they are using Castrol GTX at your Wal-Mart. Sounds better than Pennzoil, to me anyway. Looks like ya gotta deal. Wish they used Purolator or Wix (NAPA Gold) filters, which are some of the best. L

03accordman

"I did not say FACTORY REBATES, I am saying the actual selling price of a camry is $3k+ under MSRP these days."

Cmon, no one buys at MSRP and carmakers know that. Most sales happen close to inovice price, unless of course you are talking exotics. Why single out the Camry for transaction prices below MSRP?

03accordman

"Ancient engines? The base engine in the Taurus is a 263hp VVT DOHC V6. The Fusion has a 160hp DOHC four with VVT. All of GM's 2008 epsilon cars have a 169hp DOHC four standard that make more power than camrys standard engine."

Yes, the Taurus aka 500 has a new engine now (3 yrs after the car's introducion). For most of its life, it had an ancinet engine.

Do all of GMs cars have the new or recent engine? How about the 3.8l that keeps powering a lot of its base cars?

m1miata

Pontiac G6 sales to fleets seem to top those of Accord :P

03accordman

"LAst year about 700k Americans decided to buy GM midsize cars. Dont see your point. Also 900k+ people bought F150s. Does that mean the F150 is twice as good as the camry? Sales numbers alone dont mean much when you break things down. As I have stated before on other threads, other automakers dont even have enough capacity for a single model to outsell Camry. Remember, Toyota (and lexus) only makes three midsize sedans- one of which is the low volume GS. Is there any wonder they sell over 450k of one model when you consider their size? On top of that they count solara sales. If Impala and monte carlo sales were added last year chevy would've been around 400k units.

Impala and Malibu sold about 40k units last month which is very close to camry sales. If you add in G6, Aura, Lacrosse sales you are talking another 30k units."

You are pitting ALL GM midsizer numbers against one Toyota model? Wow! Are all those GM cars the same cars (no difference between a chevy or buick or pontiac?)? In any case, how many of those cars were sold to fleets?

Your F150 analogy is totally incorrect and baseless. According to you the F150 sells more because of high rebates (higher than its competitors). Assuming that is true, how can you align that with the Camry success story? If the Camry was selling so well because it offered the highest discounts/rebates/incentives and was the cheapest out there, one could relate it to your F150 story. The actual fact is different - the Camry is more expensive than most of its competition; it still sells more.

m6user

Just saw an ad by a large Mazda dealer in Chicago and the price advertised for the 6i VE auto went up about $630. They were advertising and selling at 16,595 with a sticker of 21,225. Now they are advertising 17,225. The rebate of 1750 is the same and was just renewed until Oct something. Since it's the end of year, does anybody know why the price has risen instead of going down?

03accordman

"So the F150 is the benchmark of pickups? Corolla is benchmark of compacts? Sales are a measure of popularity, not necessarily benchmark status.'

Is the Corolla the cheapest car in its category? Is that why it sells so well?

"By the 2006 model year the car had been surpassed by Fusion, Sonata, Accord and Altima."

By what standard had the Fusion, Sonata, Altima and Accord surpassed the Camry? Expecially the rental queen, Sonata? Rebates?

m1miata

Well there is an Epsilon with more HP from an i4, with a turbo, in the SAAB 9-3. Ah, the King Epsilon! So, is the Epsilon SAAB 9-3 more GM than SAAB or vise versa? I was wondering about the price being around $27K, which ain't so cheap, yet for a Scandinavian model, it is not so expensive, if ya know what I mean. Then I noticed the platform is that of Epsilon GM. Hummm? Just curious. Wonder if the car outperforms the Aura XR 3.6V6 in overall handling, road manners, stopping power. Is there such a thing as the coolness factor :shades:
L

03accordman

"There is nothing about Camry that "far outclasses" the new Malibu"

This is the pits - even without driving the Malibu, you already are all praise for the car? Did you even need to see pictures or had you decided that it was a great car as soon as GM announced there would be a redesign?

The previous Malibu was a POS - the worst of the GM lot. GM has been on the right path in the past couple of years, and I am one of the group who believes that GM will be back, looking at the current prodict (Aura, Outlook/Acadia/Sky etc); but really, the Malibu was one of its weakest cars. Good that it is being replaced now.

03accordman

"you will not see any domestic or Korean car outselling the camry anytime soon, probably never. Its not going to happen. The competition has to worry about taking some sales from Camry and Accord and increasing share. People often say Honda and Toyota "dominate" the midsize car segment but thats BS. The domestic brands dominate the pickuup segment, but you cannot say the same for camcord. You can say that they outsell the nameplates they compete against.

Frankly GM has gotten its midsize cars together and they are only going to get better. Ford and Chrysler are just doing OK and have some work to do. Hopefully the 2009 fusion will address that car's weaknesses. The Chrysler cars have impressive levels of equipment but need more V6 power and better styling."

The Camry and Accord do dominate this segment - they are hte two largest selling single models in the category.

Which Chrysler midsizers are you talking about? The new Sebring?

03accordman

"You cant dominate any segment in which you dont sell the most vehicles last time I checked. Toyota loses the sales crown in midsize sedans by a sizable margin and Honda loses it by a large margin."

What exactly is your point? You are saying that since the Accord and Camry don't sell more than 50% of all midsizers, they don't dominate the segment? This is a ridiculous statement. These two cars are at the top of their segment; clearly they dominate. Ask Hyundai, GM, Ford etc what they wouldn't do to get these types of sales for their individual models and without being rental queens.

03accordman

"Buicks do the same thing but I dont hear anyone calling them the greatest things since sliced bread. Its interesting that Toyotas benchmark cars drive much like the American cars of old that have been so criticized by import fans and the media. Toyota is building its own version of Buicks and people love them. If Buick builds a Buick people call it an old man's car"

Buicks also used to have poor quality interiors, poor fit and finish and poor reliability. Its only recently they have been picking up - but perception takes time to change.

m1miata

I must say, while driving your Camry, while taking a quick look in the rear view mirror, you could be shocked at first by a Fusion. After all, the Gillette Fusion massive chromed shaver grill, at first glimpse could be looking to shave your car --- oh how scary it looks!

All kidding aside, the Fusion, looks wise, is better overall than is the Camry. Other than the big butt, the Fusion and Milan are attractive when they are are compared to mid-sized cars in looks, in the sub- $30K field.
I would take the razor front over the blistered nose. L

P.S. After seeing the new CTS, I am thinking the Fusion/Milan have a cleaner modern car look to them now. The CTS is busy up front now, confused in the middle, and the rear is not the crisp neat styling they once had. That said, the Milan is not RWD. *Is 1487 sleeping???*

03accordman

As usual, typically hypocritical. You quote CR and other publications when they suit your argument - run them down when they don't.

03accordman

"let me try to be more explicit here. You have to look at TOTAL sales of all brands. Domination is what the big 3 have in the pickup market- they sell about 90% of the pickups in this country.

Accord and camry are best sellers but those cars do not dominate the midsize car market. They cant when GM sells more midsize cars than either Toyota or Honda. The G6, Malibu and Impala alone reprsented around 600k sales in 2006 which is more than Accord by a large margin and above Camry by a significant margin. Those two nameplates are very successful and top the sales charts, but their combined sales do not equal domination of the market. You can make the argument that civic and corolla dominate the compact market because those two vehicles single handedly make up a huge chunk of that overall market"

That's a great new spiin. Now you are combining all GM sales of mid and near full size cars and saying they dominate the segment and not the Camry/Accord? Sure they dominate - the rental lots.

GM goes to great lengths to differentiate the cars from its different divisions - you are doing the opposite. Is the malibu and the G6 the same car? Is the Lacrosse and Impala the same car? If GM were to close all divisions except, would they sell a million Impalas?

Its all spin 1487, and you know it

03accordman

"Toyota and Honda are not the dominant players in the midsize segment. TOyota is a strong second but GM is the leader in midsize car sales. Its great that the camry is the best selling car but at the end of the day all of GM's various models represent a sale for ONE company. all of the camrys sales represent a unit sold for ONE company. GM offers different styles and names to get sales why Toyota pushes one car for all buyers and thus Toyota can sell 400k of the same car."

Keep spinning it - you are doing well

volvowner

As a Honda owner and supporter, I have to say that in my experience, Honda batteries are embarrassingly poor. And the dealership always has a premium on the prorated warranty replacement battery, and just enough of a special on a battery not eligible for warranty, that the 72-month (or whatever) warranty is useless after a few years...just as mine typically go bad.

It's a racket, and I no longer even consider buying replacement batteries from them.

03accordman

"If there is no limit to sales, why don't Honda and Toyota ramp up to sell twice as many Accords and Camrys? Just click their fingers, and *poof*, over 400,000 more sales each per year. They have plenty of money, after all. Or they could pay VW to make cars in Brazil or Germany, or Hyundai to make cars in Alabama... the possibilities are endless."

They would if they could sell more than 400-500k, but they can't. Not because they can't make so many, but because they can't sell 800k copies each. VW would love to sell 400k copies of their Passat, but can't - and not because they can't make them.

Why would Honda ask Hyundai to make cars for it? Or Toyota, VW?

03accordman

"out of 4 million midsize cars sold. apparently there are a whole lot more people who don't see the value "

Were there 4 million midsizers sold last year? Assuming yes, what car sold the most, that too at prices higher than most of its competition? Are Americans idiots? The Camry, Accord and Altima are the most expensive (not counting the Passat) in their segments, still are at the top of the charts. Mean anything about domination?

This is like saying that the #1 bestselling album is nothing, since there are millions who didn't but that one.

03accordman

"CVT"

Does that make it a benchmark?

elroy5

Also 900k+ people bought F150s. Does that mean the F150 is twice as good as the camry? Sales numbers alone dont mean much when you break things down.

Sales numbers mean nothing, when comparing a Truck to a Car. Trucks are bought because most people have to have a truck to haul things. Trucks are sold in large numbers to companies as work trucks. When talking about Full Size Trucks vs. Midsize car sales numbers you have to consider the number of choices. How many Full Size Trucks are there to choose from, and how many choices do you have in Midsize Sedans. There is an Astromical difference here. :confuse: :confuse:

Impala and Malibu sold about 40k units last month which is very close to camry sales. If you add in G6, Aura, Lacrosse sales you are talking another 30k units.


Adding all these "5" cars sales numbers together to compete with "1" car is rediculous. Toyota only had to design 1 car to compete with 5 different designs for GM. No wonder Toyota is coming out on top (where it counts) in PROFITS.

ridezx11

Doesn't anyone change their own oil anymore? The only time I've had someone change my oil is when the dealer gave me free oil changes when we bought our Pilot. Just curious.

m1miata

Honda battery -- It's American. The battery is made by Johnson Controls. Good ol' Honda USA brand. You know if I was hunting for a battery, I would just go to Wal-Mart. They put them in at no charge and prices seem right. L

elroy5

Doesn't anyone change their own oil anymore?

If you want it done right, do it yourself.

tlong

"There is nothing about Camry that "far outclasses" the new Malibu"

This is the pits - even without driving the Malibu, you already are all praise for the car? Did you even need to see pictures or had you decided that it was a great car as soon as GM announced there would be a redesign?

This is funny. I recall an earlier post where 1487 used a phrase similar to "import leaning domestic bashers". Based upon a claim of superiority for a car that isn't even on the market yet, that's rich. Must be a "domestic leaning import basher".

m1miata

Well I for one, do not. Why mess with it? You buy the oil and filter, then you crawl under the car, and hope you can reach the filter, then into the pan goes the oil, then into a container for oil pickup, which you have to remember to place out on a certain day, then you clean up the catch pan, and then yourself, and then the oil in the driveway. Well I am sure I left some of the fun out of the adventure, but you get the point. It save perhaps $8 to $10 tops - big deal for all the woes. I did it when I was a kid, but no more. L

elroy5

You know if I was hunting for a battery, I would just go to Wal-Mart.

Yes, there are only a few different battery making companies, with hundreds of different labels on them. I got my new battery (with more power than the original) from Sam's Club for $45, and installed it myself. Easy as pie.

tlong

"CVT"

Does that make it a benchmark?

The Subaru Justy had a CVT ten or more years ago. Do you remember it? Not many do. Doesn't look like CVT is that big a deal.

m1miata

Ah yes the Justy, bigger than a bread box, smaller than a Mini Cooper.
Let's see the holder of the patent for CVT, is that Leonardo da Vinci ? L

backy

Why would Honda ask Hyundai to make cars for it? Or Toyota, VW?

I really have no idea. I also have no idea why VW would ask Honda to make cars for it, or why someone would pay VW way over MSRP and $3 billion up front for 400,000 Passats that VW doesn't have capacity to make. :confuse: But maybe you could explain it to me, since you didn't question any of that reasoning.

backy

As usual you digress when you have no facts. The discussion was about benchmarks and what makes them. Does a magic seat make a Fit the benchmark? No. Does standard ESC make Elantra a banchmark? No, far form it.

I stated facts. You get personal. To each his own.

The post I made was in response to the statement that no car, in any class, has a unique feature. I was simply pointing out that isn't true, and I gave several examples to back it up. Do you agree with the original statement that was made, then, that no car, in any class, has a unique feature?

And I was quite clear that whether or not the magic seats make the Fit a benchmark is debateable. And I never said the Elantra was a benchmark. Please re-read my post if you don't recall what I said.

And like it or not, the Sonata did beat the Accord, as I stated, by 2-1/2 years in making ESC standard across the lineup. It was the first mid-sized family car to do so, back in early 2005. It's a fact; you can look it up if so inclined. Or you can just keep taking swipes at people who try to use facts instead of insults to make their points. Up to you.

thegraduate

STILL? SERIOUSLY?

backy

Some people have to work all day. Then check in here and find 1000 new posts (or thereabouts).