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In most cars that offer a choice of engines (except GM/Ford whose base engines are ancient, though GM is righting that now), there is a 2-3k difference in price. I don't see why you are so surprised if this is the case with the Accord as well. "
price difference between XE and XR is far more than $2k as I stated in my post. The XR starts at $25k.
Ancient engines? The base engine in the Taurus is a 263hp VVT DOHC V6. The Fusion has a 160hp DOHC four with VVT. All of GM's 2008 epsilon cars have a 169hp DOHC four standard that make more power than camrys standard engine.
The V6 always costs more, my point is Honda is charging all that money for the engine only in the 2008 model as far as I can tell. It would be different if other equipment was bundled with the engine for that price. You will not find a $2k-$3k difference between any four cylinder and V6 domestic cars unless other equipment is included.
LAst year about 700k Americans decided to buy GM midsize cars. Dont see your point. Also 900k+ people bought F150s. Does that mean the F150 is twice as good as the camry? Sales numbers alone dont mean much when you break things down. As I have stated before on other threads, other automakers dont even have enough capacity for a single model to outsell Camry. Remember, Toyota (and lexus) only makes three midsize sedans- one of which is the low volume GS. Is there any wonder they sell over 450k of one model when you consider their size? On top of that they count solara sales. If Impala and monte carlo sales were added last year chevy would've been around 400k units.
Impala and Malibu sold about 40k units last month which is very close to camry sales. If you add in G6, Aura, Lacrosse sales you are talking another 30k units.
The idea that a CTS is worth no more than $30k with all the features it has is laughable.
Its only ancient in the Fusion, not the 3 or the 6 though since they are imports.
Do you think the vehicles that most buyers choose NOT to buy are the more important ones?
Has anyone actually driven the 08 Malibu? I have not seen any reviews. Maybe you have and can comment but certainly the retiring Malibu was far out-classed by Toyota and Honda.
I have to wonder what you design at Hyundai. It is very clear to me that Honda has never been a benchmark for Hyundai (i.e. "sporty handling"). It is clear that Toyota/Lexus is dead-center in Hyundai's target.
Motor-Trend quote in an article on the Accord:
September 2002
"Somehow, the Accord imparts a sense that, even though it's a lowly four-door family sedan, it has mechanical genetic material that responds to quality driving. That's what ultimately sets the Accord apart from most everything else in the midsize-sedan universe."
Motor-Trend comparo '07 Camry & '08 Accord:
"the Accord reigns as the best of the best-the benchmark."
There's that B-word again....
From Edmunds 2003 comparison which the Accord won:
"The Honda Accord is to the midsize family sedan category what the BMW 3 Series is to the entry-level luxury sedan category. Even the manufacturers that don't blatantly copy it still use it as a reference point when designing their own midsize offering."
Most of these reviews are on the previous model but there is not much available on the '08 yet.
Even CR has given VW credit, as a benchmark, where due. In the April issue they wrote:
If the only things that mattered to a car buyer were performance, comfort, and safety, Volkswagen would be at the
top of the heap.
In my area VW has as nearly as many dealerships as Honda or Toyota. In a 20 mile radius there are 4 VW dealers and 5 each for Honda and Toyota. The amazing thing is how few dealerships Honda and Toyota get away with, considering the volume of sales. For comparison there are 12 Ford dealers within 20 miles of me.
So the F150 is the benchmark of pickups? Corolla is benchmark of compacts? Sales are a measure of popularity, not necessarily benchmark status. This is proven by the fact that the 2006 Camry was a best seller and was probably the 3rd best car in the segment at best. By the 2006 model year the car had been surpassed by Fusion, Sonata, Accord and Altima. Are you willing to say the Impala is the 3rd best family car on the market since sales are the most important factor?
this is probably why GM redesigned it. The new car and old car have nothing in common besides they are on the same platform. Improved engines, looks, features and a hybrid model. The Malibu is basically the Aura but with a better interior- and the interior and lack of 4 cylinder model where the two main criticisms of the Aura. There is nothing about Camry that "far outclasses" the new Malibu. Honestly, the current car wasnt even outclassed by the last gen camry. Malibu had just as much space, matched camry on fuel economy, looked no worse and the Malibu offered a 240hp engine when the camry offered no more than 225hp. Other than lack of stability the current model was just as good as 2006 camry.
September 2002
"Somehow, the Accord imparts a sense that, even though it's a lowly four-door family sedan, it has mechanical genetic material that responds to quality driving. That's what ultimately sets the Accord apart from most everything else in the midsize-sedan universe."
Motor-Trend comparo '07 Camry & '08 Accord:
"the Accord reigns as the best of the best-the benchmark."
There's that B-word again.... "
sorry but I dont consider 2002 to be recent. In 2002 the 2007 camry wasnt out, the current sonata wasnt out, the Aura wasnt out, the Fusion wasnt out. I never asked if the Accord was hte bencmark when it was brand new in 2003, I was asking where it had been rated #1 recently outside of C&D which ALWAYS rates it #1.
"From Edmunds 2003 comparison which the Accord won: "
again, not current- The Accord lost two Edmund comparos since 2003.
Sure they are. Taking the complete package A-Z, they are still the benchmark. The Accord is still the vehicle that gets my dollars the next time I make a purchase in this segment.
The dealership networks seem to be very localized. Where I am there are 2 VW dealerships (one with a terrible reputation) but 5 -6 Honda and Toyota dealers.
I would pretty much think so.
"Sales are a measure of popularity, not necessarily benchmark status"
I don't agree. The people have spoken. The 3 series is a good example, small manufacturer by comparision to Lexus or Nissan. Yet all variants of 3 series handily outsell the competitors.
I agree that the Prius is a significant vehicle and would be a benchmark in the hybrid world.
It is not a benchmark in the mid-size sedan market since no one is trying to compete directly with it.
It is also pretty darn small on the inside and if it had to go toe-to-toe with other mid-size sedans, the only advantage it would have is mileage. Every other metric would go to the competition.
Is that even a debate? The new Sierra/ Silverado may have become the new benchmark, but yes, of-course the F-150 is (or was) the benchmark. Should we have judged all light-duty trucks against the Ram??
Camry was a best seller and was probably the 3rd best car in the segment at best
By who's judgment? Clearly most people found it to be their best choice!
Are you willing to say the Impala is the 3rd best family car on the market since sales are the most important factor?
The Impala is certainly the benchmark for mid-size rentals and fleet cars. Buyers in those industries are looking for a different set of qualities than private buyers, hence the Impala sells alot of cheap, large capacity vehicles.
Bestsellers are not benchmarks. People just like them. We all know for all those years the Explorer was not the best SUV out there. Not in handling/acceleration/quality/reliability/etc. People just liked them and they were pawned as an everyman (woman)car.
By who's judgment? Clearly most people found it to be their best choice!
That's cuz knucleheaded people don't try anything else.
The Impala is certainly the benchmark for mid-size rentals and fleet cars. Buyers in those industries are looking for a different set of qualities than private buyers, hence the Impala sells alot of cheap, large capacity vehicles.
You might be right... businesses buy them cuz they can get em cheapo. Believe it or not though, these cars are comfortable and decently reliable.
here we go with the excuses and qualifiers. YOur argument is that sales are king but now you are saying only certain sales count. Even if we take away fleet sales the Impala would be in the top 5 in family sedan sales and ahead of Fusion, sonata and many other cars. The overwhelming majority of Impalas I see are retail.
"By who's judgment? Clearly most people found it to be their best choice! "
By my judgement and many others who care about performance, features, styling, etc. The last gen camry was about as average as you could get for a family sedan. It sold a lot because the camry is the default car choice for those who know little about cars or refuse to buy anything that isnt Japanese.
If sales are your only criteria, than the F150 is indeed a benchmark. If you look at features, engines, trannies, interiors, etc. the F150 is not a benchmark. In terms of mainstream V8 engines the F150 is at the back of the pack. A huge ad budget, enormous production capacity and big discounts allow it to outsell the competition though.
No they are not. Name three ways these two cars are far superior to the competition without saying "resale value".
I dont have a problem with people refusing to cross shop the camry and accord with others, but dont act like they are way better than the competition. All of these cars are very close in performance and feature content.
Since the Altima tops the CamCord in hp and styling and bests the Accord by having a hybrid I am curious as to how it could be considered inferior to either.
if you believe that than features and performance must mean nothing to you. The F150 is the 3rd oldest pickup on the market and it has been surpassed by at least two, maybe three competitors. Ford makes a lot of em and sells em cheap, but that doesnt make it the benchmark. The F150 is barely even mentioned when talking about benchmark pickups in 2007.
The 3 series sells in huge numbers based on peformance, reputation and a huge model lineup. No other competitor has 4 body styles and such a wide array of engines. The 3 series is one of the FEW examples of a benchmark vehicle that outsells the competition. The RX is another example of a vehicle that has been surpassed but continues to outsell all comers.
Accord:
Handling. Interior layout. Reliability.
Toyota:
Reliability. Smooth ride. Quiet cabin.
I agree with you that none can be said to be 'far' superior, this is a tight segment.
Just out of interest, why do you think that resale should not be a criteria?
So it's unfair to point to comparisons when the Accord was new but not unfair to then compare that same car to newer competition?
Yup. In my mind, asking everyone to take resale value out of the equation is like asking to take reliability out of the equation. Once you take anything out, it's not a real comparison anymore.
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Did you know a long time back now, say a decade or two, they asked millionaires, perhaps it was self-made millionaires, what car they drive. The number one car was a Crown Victoria; a used Crown Victoria. There was the perceived value. When those which were out to impress, with those new high paying Internet and computer jobs bought BMW and Mercedes, they bought used Crown Vics. Now, I must say that is a bit far to go to save a buck, but you get the idea. These people have the money for a reason -- they can spot true value.
And yes, I am but a poor boy. If ever so rich as afford a new Cadillac or Vette, I would have to justify it still as a value. It would not be one with junk on it just to impress. As for a Camry, those interiors look cheap to me, and the funny nose is a bit much. I ended up with an Accord SE V6 which is their best value, and passed on even test driving the Camry. The Aura seemed like the other good car. The Fusion and Sonata, IMHO, seem like the runners up awards cars. Oh yeah, the Altima I did drive, but was not impressed. Seems overpriced too.
Loren
Cars with low resale are normally low selling in the retail market, and thus the less desirable ones to begin with. It can be a precursor of things to come. Now some cars, in the high dollar, are not good resale due to those buying the cars. The high-rollers and flithy rich do not want to be seen in a used top line Mercedes say, or a Maserati, so they buy them new and dare we say, because they can do so. No one can afford to pay for those luxury cars until they fall down quite a ways in resale value, then the wannabes take charge of buying them. For the everyday Joe cars, those like the Malibu and Impala are selling in huge fleet sales amounts, and thus killing off resale hopes, which were never a strong point of the more recent history of GM's and Fords. A Taurus is a dime a dozen, is it not? So resale means a heck of allot as to how people view a cars percieved, if not true value.
Loren
While it is important to keep an eye on what the number one, two and three are doing, being ahead of the game means coming up with the next best thing. For the domestics, I think that thing is first style, then engineering in decent fuel economy, and perfect ergonomics. Replicating the features, and how they screw together is all fine and dandy, but then you still have an " all the rest " sort of car. Sonata is a good car. At one time it had a more unique look to it. I think it is an example of a car which once again will do better when they venture out into the new looks, at which point they have good car, with some more captivating style. Not saying the current style is not good. It is just not grabbing the customers off the streets. I am afraid too many cars are just good enough in style. That said, what a great opportunity for the domestics. Chrysler cashed in, but had no follow through. And I am thinking the 300 had the style, and uniqueness of RWD, and AWD cars in a lower price range, but the style had this love it or hate it, or even worse I love it, but it ain't so practical effect. Those too tall doors, with the chop top was confining to some, and hard to see out of for others. Perhaps if they had three good styles between three sizes, more customers would have a choice in the Chrysler line. The Charger is just another 300, at a better price, with even cheaper looking interior, and the Sebring is a disaster. The rest are lower volume specialty cars. Not sure what a Caliber is suppose to be. Does Chrysler know? They have the Charger for value. Oh well.
L
Accord:
Handling. Interior layout. Reliability.
Toyota:
Reliability. Smooth ride. Quiet cabin.
I agree with you that none can be said to be 'far' superior, this is a tight segment. "
resale value isnt a built in feature of any car. External forces determine resale value. Besides, as I've noted in other threads its overblown. People who brag about resale value dont note that they are based on MSRP's not transaction prices. There is no relibale method out there to determine ACTUAL resale value that takes into account financing costs and transaction prices. If two comparable cars are separated by $2k up front (in terms of price paid) and are both financed for 5 years the "better" car may be worth $2500 more after 5 years but what difference does it make if the purchaser of the car with better resale borrowed more money at a higer rate? Cars that cost less are going to be worth less in the end. Yes I know the rate of decline is different, but that doesnt count financing costs.
Accord is no better than competition in ride quality, quietness or interior layout. The interior layouts of 90% of cars is similar and logical these days. The handling of the accord is definitely not best in segment these days based on actual comments by testers and test data.
A case of sour grapes?
I wasn't affected directly. However, the manner in which Toyota handled the problem made me decide that I would never buy a Toyota product ever, period. Tens of thousands of owners were affected. I seriously doubt if any of them would buy another Toyota product again either.
Accord:
Handling. Interior layout. Reliability.
Toyota:
Reliability. Smooth ride. Quiet cabin.
I agree with you that none can be said to be 'far' superior, this is a tight segment. "
resale value isnt a built in feature of any car. External forces determine resale value. Besides, as I've noted in other threads its overblown. People who brag about resale value dont note that they are based on MSRP's not transaction prices. There is no relibale method out there to determine ACTUAL resale value that takes into account financing costs and transaction prices. If two comparable cars are separated by $2k up front (in terms of price paid) and are both financed for 5 years the "better" car may be worth $2500 more after 5 years but what difference does it make if the purchaser of the car with better resale borrowed more money at a higer rate? Cars that cost less are going to be worth less in the end. Yes I know the rate of decline is different, but that doesnt count financing costs.
Accord is no better than competition in ride quality, quietness or interior layout. The interior layouts of 90% of cars is similar and logical these days. The handling of the accord is definitely not best in segment these days based on actual comments by testers and test data.
2. The overall smoothness of the Accord.
3. The overall styling (okay this is subjective)
I for one don't like the looks of the Altima or the way it drives and would avoid CVT like the plague. The fact the Altima comes in a hybrid doesn't give it points. In addition, the Altima is not the same quality or reliability as the Accord.
The Altima has more going for it than the Fusion, but less then the Accord.
If the Accord is a cat, the Mazda is a tiger :P
Note- I didn't claim the Accord was best in quietness.
However, while I agree that certain cars may be better than the Accord in ride quality (Mazda?), Reliability (really none, maybe Toyota) or interior layout (Passat), no car can put all 3 together better than the Accord.
People who brag about resale value dont note that they are based on MSRP's not transaction prices.
Nonsense. Did you see what happened to GM and Ford's resale when they started doing zero interest and putting all kinds of rebates out there? They lost value even as the MSRP stayed the same.
Regardless of what they are based on, resale is a very quantifiable number. Whether you disagree with their methodology, Kelly Blue book, Edmunds etc. all have resale numbers that are industry standards. Try going to trade in your car and tell them that you want them to use YOUR preferred method and not Kelley Blue Book! You'll be laughed out of the room.
When I go to trade I know exactly what I expect to get based on how I have treated the car appearence-wise and what the blue book is on the car.
2. The overall smoothness of the Accord.
3. The overall styling (okay this is subjective) "
styling is subjective so you can rule that out but I will say many do not agree with your assessment.
I dont know how you define "smoothness" but I assure you most cars in this class are sufficiently refined and quiet. Just look at the noise level measurements in any test.
Fit and finish is close across the board these days. You can claim the Accord has superior fit and finish but a quick walk through a mall parking lot will show you that there is no dicernable difference between brands in this regard. Even Hyundais have great panel fits these days.
Reliability is also good across the board. CR gives data that says the Accord is VERY reliable while other cars are simply reliable. Bottom line is that most of these cars are not going to have major problems within 5 years or more. when you factor in the superior warranty you get with most other brands I think I am more than willing to take my chances with them.
just traded in a car and I can tell you KBB wont get you far at a dealership so good luck if you think that is your saving grace. Secondly, I didnt say you should use a different method to calculate resale- what I said was the ACTUAL difference to YOUR pocket is much smaller than indicated by KBB resale values. What about financing costs? If you borrow more money that is money you dont have to put other things. Unless you are paying cash for your car any savings you will get on the back end are absorbed during the time you are making payments. Interest is not your friend if you want to save money. I fail to see how buying a more expensive car and taking on more debt is a good way to "save" money in the end.
"However, while I agree that certain cars may be better than the Accord in ride quality (Mazda?), Reliability (really none, maybe Toyota) or interior layout (Passat), no car can put all 3 together better than the Accord. "
its pretty obvious that your are an accord cheerleader and will not be realistic about the car's merits. The Accord isnt even known for a plush ride and you are telling it its possibly the best riding car in the class. The accord has long been criticized for having a somewhat stiff ride compared to Camry and some domestic competitors. I dont have a problem with the interior layout of most cars in this class and the Accord is nothign special. You are saying its the "clear" leader based on subjective matters. when you look at the facts- price, performance, features, warranty, etc the Accord is OK but not stellar. The Accords best attribute is resale value if you are a person who buys cars strictly based on what they will be worth at trade in.
That's great that the Fusion has all those features, but just because it can match other cars in features, doesn't mean it matches in quality or value.
the leather could be cheap low grade thin leather, the heated seats might be unreliable, the CD changer might have a low signal to noise ratio, the 17" wheels might be heavier with a lesser finish than other 17" rims.
I would sacrifice 40hp to save $3k because 221hp is enought o get the job done.
That's great that a heavy oversized 220 HP engine is good enough for you, but why not get 40 HP more and get better mileage to boot?
Or why not just get 170 HP with a light 4 cylinder and get much better mileage. 170 HP will get the job done just as well, and save you that $3K.
Yes, the answer is yes, the Passat is an inferior car when it comes to durability, reliability, and dependability. If it was as "good" as the Camry and Accord in those areas, then it would sell just as much (or right in between) the Camry and Accord (provided they don't raise the pricing)
Well of course it did. Because if I bought car X for $25,000 and 3 years later they have the same MSRP but now have a $3K rebate then my 3 year old car is worth at least $3K less, maybe more.
However, the depreciation on the new car that was purchased at $22,000 with the rebate will be basically the same after 3 years, provided the rebates don't increase. Conversely a decrease in rebates would provide better resale values for the older vehicle.
Large rebates and rental fleet dumping are only necessary if you build more vehicles than the public wants to buy. This used to be the strategy at the domestic automakers because it was cheaper to do that than to reduce production or close plants because the autoworkers got paid either way.
Ford's inventory levels are so low this year that they cancelled the normal labor day sale, instead they're only doing the normal model year closeout sale. They're learning and it will show in the new 09 Fusion out next year.
That depends on the car. If you buy a car that isn't in high demand or has a lot of discounts, that typically will figure in to trade in value as well (although retail seems immune). Trading in a less desirable model - which the dealer will likely end up auctioning or wholesaling, will bring back of book value.
Or more likely the case, they found the Camry to be better built and of higher quality (leading to long term reliability) than the other competing models. Also, Camry's ride very nicely on the straitaways, very comfortable and luxury-like. Not everyone's cup of tea, but a lot of people like that when combined with reliability.
Frankly GM has gotten its midsize cars together and they are only going to get better. Ford and Chrysler are just doing OK and have some work to do. Hopefully the 2009 fusion will address that car's weaknesses. The Chrysler cars have impressive levels of equipment but need more V6 power and better styling.
This discussion began when you stated that the Accord was not a benchmark in the class. Since we are discussing the various perspectives that (IMO) make it a benchmark, it would not make a lot of sense for me not to think it's a bench mark right?
I chose the phrase 'ride quality' carefully because I do not believe that plush is a sign of great ride quality. Ride quality is a balance of confident road holding and handling without beating the occupants up. That may have some subjective elements to it. If you prefer a soft ride then that would explain a lot of your down-playing of the Accord's influence in this class. If you value saving money up front, again, that explains your perspective on the car. That's neither right or wrong, but you and I do not have the same goals with our vehicles obviously.
just traded in a car and I can tell you KBB wont get you far at a dealership so good luck if you think that is your saving grace.
So how was your trade in valued? I assume you knew what the value would have been in KBB, was it higher or lower? Were you expecting sale price and got wholesale? If it was not on KBB, why not? You are in a big market- a dealer has no reason to come off of the industry standard.
FWIW, I absolutely expect KBB wholesale to be the minimum price offered when trading unless the car has exceptionally low miles/ wear or exceptionally high mile/ wear. If it is lower, the dealership doesn't want my trade and I move on, and if I can get higher, great.
Last I checked, the Accord did come in a Hybrid variant, so no advantage for Altima there. Styling wise, I don't really care for Nissan's spaceship designs with cheap looking tail lights.
The 3 ways Accord and Camry leave everyone else in this segment in the dust are:
Reliability, Dependability, Durability, and not only that, but build quality, material quality, & engineering quality.
the leather could be cheap low grade thin leather, the heated seats might be unreliable, the CD changer might have a low signal to noise ratio, the 17" wheels might be heavier with a lesser finish than other 17" rims. "
that was an incredible reach. The excuses are unlimited I see. I measure value by what equipment you get for your dollar. I would love for you to explain how a car with less features and a higher price is a smarter by for the consumer. The Fusion is well equipped for the price of a poorly equipped Accord V6. That is a fact, not something that can be debated. Now if someone is unwilling to live without 244hp and stability the Accord may be worth thousands extra. If you can do without those things the Fusion is a good buy.
"Or why not just get 170 HP with a light 4 cylinder and get much better mileage. 170 HP will get the job done just as well, and save you that $3K. "
dont get this part at all. You could get a Fusion I-4 and save thousands over an Accord/Camry I-4 model.
you also mention "40 more hp" but the current accord only has 23 more hp than the Fusion. I think the Accord's mileage is about 1mpg better than the Fusion. In reality the Fusion V6 competes with the i-4 camry and Accord in price. If you want mileage that may not matter to you but if you want performance the V6 will outperform the 158hp camry and 166hp Accord easily.
Who does?
I am not a huge fan of the Altima's styling but to those who only shop Japanese its the most stylish of the trio.
"but build quality, material quality, & engineering quality. "
any measure of any of those factors? probably not which is why its pointless to make absolute statements that hinge on those attributes. The panel gaps on camry and accord are no better than anything else in the segment. In fact, I find the fit on the current camrys trunk to be lackluster due to the complex faux BMW shape of the decklid. Unless you have a way to quantify how those cars are better in materials (that is a joke considering the new camry's interior), build quaity and engineering I would suggest you come up with some more meaures of superiority.
This is not the 80s or 90s, Toyota and Honda do not have fit/finish that blows away the competiton anymore. Engineers and designers are pretty smart people- if given the authority and money to develop high quality parts that can be assembled with tight tolerances they will do so.
The top brands when it comes to gap tolerances are German- they are noticable better than lower priced brands but even the mainstream brands are very good.