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As with most of these debates, it ended with neither side changing their opinion. Funny that.
It would have saved some time.
just trying to me helpful, Loren
I guess I'll be looking at GM and Ford stuff next year - it'll be time to replace my business driver and I'm not buying another Chrysler. My last 2 Sebrings have been awful. Before all you Honda and Toyota fans get all excited - the dealerships for both that are close to me are simply awful, and, I won't deal with them.
Regards:
OldCEM
So, you are shopping GM & Ford for a mid-sized car. GM has the New Malibu and Aura XR, which are two to start with in my view. Ford has the Fusion / Milan which are pretty good lookin' gals. I did not go up the scale far enough to try out the SAAB, but it may be a good car. You mentioned it is for business, so perhaps it is too pricey. As company cars go, perhaps the Impala has some good points to it. Or maybe even a Sonata, if you have Hyundai nearby. For price and something, shall we say very different looking, I even considered a new or used Monte Carlo, which is deep discounted. Oh yeah, any Ford FiveHundred left will be deep discounted. And the new one, with the alias Taurus has the new engine, which is an improvement. Let us know what you find. And enjoy the hunt !
L
2. any standard or reference by which others can be measured or judged
benchmark for value - Sonata
benchmark for handling - Mazda6
benchmark for versatility in hauling - Passat/ Mazda6
benchmark for safety - Legacy
benchmark for big schnoz - Camry
benchmark for exageration - andres3
benchmark for referees - grad
and according to accordman et al, the benchmark for benchmarks - Accord (and Camry cuz it sells the most)
You can save a whole lot more then 8 to 10 dollars by doing it yourself. My brother-in-law had his oil changed at one of the big name chain places (Jiffy Lube I think) and they cross-threaded the oil pan plug when they put it back on. The oil leak that resulted from this incompetence meant that in a short period of time there wasn't enough oil left to lubricate anything. End result.. ruined engine. Jiffy Lube said "Gee.. that's too bad."
No problem, I appreciate the response. Thats kind of what I figured, the 16s can be used to keep someone's yacht from floating away.
I am going back and forth on whether to wait two or three years and then take advantage of the Accord's "excellent resale value" and get something I like, or modify the suspension and tire/wheel fitments to make it something actually enjoyable for me.
Yeah, its amazingly easy on the Subaru. The filter is mounted upside-down at the bottom of the motor, and the drain plug is right there too. Drain the oil, pull the filter (the oil is drained so it doesn't leak all over), replace filter and plug and refill.
Nope, the time to change the oil myself is more valuable than the $25 and 15 minutes it costs to get it done at a place like Wal-Mart. I can kill two birds with one stone because EVERYBODY needs something at Wal-Mart at some point lol. Everybody on a college budget anyway!
Besides, I'm not the least bit mechanically inclined. I changed my own air filter, cleaned and oiled a corroding battery terminal, and can change a tire. That's about it as far as my maintenance experience goes.
Its not an argument, its a fact that has no bearing on whether or not the Impala is a good buy. The Impala is successful for many reasons. The fact that its sold to fleets is only a negative in the minds of those that dont want to give Chevy any credit. Its fleet sales do not diminish its value as a family car.
"It's pretty clear we disagree on the definition of a bench mark vehicle. I think the 'benchmark' is a vehicle that sets the standard in a segment, it's a combination of all the things which customers tend to buy for and has powerful influence on all competitors. I truly do not understand what you consider a benchmark to be. "
agreed but the current Accord doesnt set any standards for the class. Thats the problem. You have decided that the Accord is the perfect family sedan that stands head and shoulders above the rest and thats just not true. Especially not for the current model.
I thought we all knew it was for original owner. That isnt news to me. Hyundais warranty isnt transferrable either.
You are making excuses because you have no good answer to my statement that Chrysler is standing behind their powertrains. I dont care what the window is, I would get my car in if it means no warranty repairs during the time I own the car.
Again, where is Honda's lifetime powertrain warranty? Toyota is replacing trannies on Camrys and Tundras before they even get out of the basic warranty period and you want to tell us that Chrysler's warranty is inadequate and doesnt suggest their powertrains are reliable.
it is borderline insane for a consumer to advocate that a company give us less for our money. almost every other company out there has roadside assistance during the warranty period. As overpriced as Toyotas and Hondas are they should do the same. With all the profit they are making I dont see why some money can be put back into customer friendly programs.
You would be a great service manager at a dealership- they would love your "its the customers fault" attitude.
I dont even like Chryslers but you keep making baseless statements. What evidence do you have that recent Chryslers are falling apart? Chrysler had a 7 year powertrain warranty up until 2006 or so. Now they have a lifetime powertrain warranty. Would a company with failing trannies and engines offer such protection? What you are saying is totally at odds with the facts. Even CR gives most recent Chrysler products decent reliability ratings and people like you treat CR as the Bible.
Chrysler only makes two midsize cars Avenger and Sebring. They have a lot of features, in fact they have more than any of Ford or GM's offerings and far more than the Sonata. There is a lot of innovation in those cars but they need more power and better looks.
"The Camry and Accord do dominate this segment - they are hte two largest selling single models in the category. "
As I've stated about 5 times, GM dominates the segment regardless of how many brands it takes to do it. GM sells about 70k-80K non luxury midsize cars a month. Dont think Toyota or Honda match that number.
Recently? The Lacrosse came out 3 years ago. Even the previous generation Buicks werent bad. I dont know of any Buicks in recent memory with poor reliability or bad fit and finish. Buick does very well in JD POwer and CR surveys in reliability. Where are you getting your facts?
benchmark for handling - Mazda6
benchmark for versatility in hauling - Passat/ Mazda6
benchmark for safety - Legacy
benchmark for big schnoz - Camry
benchmark for exageration - andres3
benchmark for referees - grad
and according to accordman et al, the benchmark for benchmarks - Accord (and Camry cuz it sells the most) "
exactly, there is no benchmark across the board in such a competitive segment.
I like that benchmark for exaggeration. LOL!
Not really. You are failing to understand the fact that these sales all go back to the manufacturers. A camry is a Toyota. An ES350 is a Toyota. The G6, Malibu, Aura, etc. are all GM cars. The NAME of the cars is irrelevant. If Toyota is so smart and is "dominating" they should be selling more midsize cars than GM. They are not and nothing you say can change that fact. GM is probably outselling Toyota in midsize cars by a good 30% so I fail to see how Toyota is dominating the segment. Thats not spin, its fact.
The majority of people who buy a midsize sedan do NOT buy a Toyota or Honda and thats all you need to know when making an argument about segment domination. I dont see it getting better for them with all the strong entries coming out such as the 6 and Malibu and 2009 Fusion.
"Is the malibu and the G6 the same car?"
Yes. Malibu, Aura and G6 are the same car underneath the skin just like camry and ES350. Lacrosse, Impala and Grand Prix are the same car underneath as well. GM only has two midsize platforms for non luxury cars, not that it makes a difference.
as for rental lots- GM's midsize sales would be much higher if they cranked up the rental sales to previous levels. The Malibu and lacrosse for example have taken significant hits in monthly volume due to reduction in fleet sales. There was a time when the Malibu was selling at around 20k units a month before GM cut back on fleet sales.
I would love for you to explain how selling less cars equal market domination. Now THAT my friend is some serious spin if I've ever seen it.
Toyota has 3 brands and GM has 7. Could that be why GM has more than one midsize car? I dont know, you tell me. GM cant just give all their product to one brand and starve the rest. I've never known consumer choice to be a bad thing. I for one am glad we have so many choices in this segment. BTW, since you dont believe in making multiple cars off the same platform to generate more sales I guess you dont like the fact that TOyota makes the camry, ES350 and Avalon when really only one car would do. Guess you dont like Honda making the Accord, TSX, TL and RL off the same platform either. More brands equals more cars, its not rocket science.
BTW, GM really only needs two cars to match camry sales. If you subtract Solara (which is really a different nameplate although Toyota uses it to boost camry sales #'s) the Malibu and Impala usually match camry sales.
Folks, I am not telling you anything new here. The Aura has been highly praised and the Malibu is an evolution of that car. IS anyone here willing to take bets on how the Malibu will be reviewed? If you take a solid car and correct its deficiencies you end up with a very good car. The Malibu is only an unknown entity to people who have had their head in the sand when it comes to recent domestic entries- the Aura has been out for year.
BTW, I have seen the Malibu in the flesh at my local autoshow. If you are aware of any glaring issues with the new Malibu let us know since you are convinced that its totally new vehicle that could be a complete disaster.
Please note I dont bash imports, I just state facts that others seem to ignore. There are no "bad" cars in this class or any class for that matter in 2007. We are way beyond that stage although I see many here are stuck in the 80s when it comes to perceptions.
One was a mazda3 which is a model that is in high demand. I know what I'm talking about. If the dealer doesnt want to give you KBB they will not, its that simple. The dealer even told my brother they were excited about getting the car and knew it would sell quickly. Bottom line is they plan to make a certain amount off the car and they are only going to give you whatever that amount is minus $1500 or so.
"Do you actually think any car company is looking to emulate the Malibu when designing a new midsize car? "
I dont think they are looking at Camry when redesigning a midsize car, thats for sure. Other brands want the camrys reputation, but other than that there is little to emulate. Should they emulate the gooseneck trunk hinges? should they emulate the odd pairing of options that mean the SE model doent offer a split folding seat or auto climate control? Should they emulate the hood prop that Toyota uses instead of a gas charged strut? Should they be looking to copy the hard plastics in the interior? Maybe the fact that stability isnt standard on any models? Or maybe the fact that that Toyota gives you smaller wheels on the top model even though it costs more?
The only noteworthy things about the 2007 camry are the hybrid model and the mileage of the V6 models.
Name two comparos outside of C&D that the Accord has won. I do not recall the Accord ever being in a R&T comparo. Autoweek did a comparo between the Aura and "benchmark" camry earlier this year and picked the Aura. The Accord wasnt invited. Edmunds had the Accord losing two comparos in the last couple of years. Where are you getting your information?
"In the recent MT comparison that you quote, did you note the title of that comparison of the 08 Accord vs 08 Camry? It was 'battle of the benchmarks'. I am sure you would have noted it, bit surely you wouldn't mention it here, right? "
I saw the MT article. The Accord was compared to camry because MT loves the camry and named it COTY. They were comparing the accord to the CURRENT benchmark in the segment. They werent indicating the 2007 model was a benchmark. I dont even think it was included in the last midsize car comparo they did because at that time they considered it surpassed.
are you serious? I have heard so many statements about domestic cars and rebates and transaction prices that I cant believe you are now arguing that nothing is wrong with a car needing $4k in discounts to sell. People like you would be the first ones to say GM or Ford "needs" cash on the hood to sell a car because their cars are so crappy. Now you are telling me "they all sell for invoice" and its no big deal. I have read many times that if a car is made right and demand is there you dont need discounts and rebates. Toyota and Honda were always held up as the examples of how to perfectly balance price and demand. I guess that isnt the case with the camry. Toyota had to be on crack to allow the Camry to reach $34k loaded unless they planned to offer discounts from the door.
Please.
The duratec wasnt ancient, it was just too small and underpowered. That engine came out in the mid 90s- hardly old by engine standards. The old Taurus with the 3.8L engine had an ancient motor.
" How about the 3.8l that keeps powering a lot of its base cars? "
A lot? That engine powers 3 vehicles and it makes more power and torque than Chryslers DOHC 2.7L which is a much more recent design. I agree the 3800 needs to go, but the majority of GM's products dont have that engine. None of the cars I named have it, thats for sure. Truth be told its not even a bad engine for a car that starts around $23k like the Lacrosse. An accord with the new 2.4L engine will make 190hp and sell in the same price range as the lacrosse so I dont see the big deal.
for reference, the epsilon cars are the Malibu, G6 and Aura. That is why I said the EPSILON cars have the 2.4L 169hp engine standard.
honestly I am starting to wonder if you read about any of the cars we are debating. By 2006 the camry was THOROUGHLY surpassed in power, transmission, features, performance and style. The 2006 Sonata was better than the 2006 camry. The Accord was WAY better than the 2006 camry.
care to back that up? The Malibu wasnt pretty but it could compare favorably with the 2006 camry in every way. It had the same space, fuel economy and performance. In fact the SS model offered better performance than the Camry SE. Aside from its rental lot popularity there isnt much about the Malibu that wasnt comparable to the last gen Camry. If you have any facts to support why the car was a POS let me know.
first of all the camry is being sold to rental lots.
Secondly if you dont understand how a manufacturer cant dominate a segment without leading in sales I dont know what to tell you. A nameplate alone cannot dominte- you have to look at total sales. In that measure Honda and Toyota lose. What does "dominate" mean to you? Apparently not what it means to the rest of us.
If you want to reduce things to the platform level we can, GM's W platform cars outsell the camry and yes they are the same car underneath regardless of styling and brands. I would say GM sold about 550k W platform cars last year. There is your domination from ONE platform.
as I said, the domestic brands dominate the pickup market with about 80% share. I dont think Accord and camry have 80% share of midsizers.
I guess you don't understand then how the Hertzs, Avises, Enterprises, muncipalities, and larger corpoations etc. 'buy' their vehicles. These cars are not sold at all, they are simply furnished by whoever is willing to lose the most money on them on a bid basis- and one good reason why 'Detriot' continues to lose beaucoups of money. So next time you see a G6, Malibu (or a Sebring) on the road without a green 'E' on it, or can find an Impala (midsize?) that isn't white think you finally have found a car that was actually may have been sold and a car may have helped that mfgr. with some real profit and didn't ultimately cost some Americans their jobs!
And furthermore mfgr participation in these farcical 'sales' really really hurts not only a particular model resale values but also the mfgrs. overall reputation. The new Taurus is already having to be discounted and rebated despite now being relatively competitive in its class and well 'sticker' priced. IMO, a mistake on Ford's part going back to a name that to many of us means rental car!
in short something about 800,000 Camcords are sold every year to folks like you and me for a profit- and maybe (if you include the Impala) along with your g6s, malibus, auras etc you might be able to come up with a number higher than that BUT sales and production are 2 different things!
Looks like its time to remove my Track from this discussion. This benchmark $#!& has gone on WAY too long. The host has asked that it stop. The sales figures probably belong in "News and Views."
I remember the good old days when we talked about engines, handling, and actual attributes of the cars...too bad.
You keep mixing manufactures and models. I don't share your view GM dominates the segment. The view I have is the models in this segment are dominated by Accord and Camry. While GM has a mix of models across a number of divisions that may be labeled mid-size, none of them really comes together as well as the Accord. Does GM sell more cars than Honda? Yeah, but so what.
Right.
Being a Civil Engineer, I can tell you from experience that you'd be lucky to get the PERMITS for these new plants within 10 months, let alone construction of the building itself (whether new or renovations of existing plants), setup and tooling of assembly equipment, etc.
You're looking 2-3 years MINIMUM.
GM should lose like Honda and Toyota losses. I don't buy your line of reasoning either. If you want to say GM as a manufacturer sells more mid-size cars than other manufacturers that is certainly a true statement. But equally as true, is the best selling models are the Camry and Accord. In this way, respectively Toyota and Honda dominate the segment because they have the best selling individual models in the segment.
Say it once, explain it once if you have to, but then move ON.
Fusion/Milan combined - 8,310
Camry - 18,657
Sonata - 41,867
Altima - 14,087
Nothing implied - just stating numbers for comparison.
Do you have numbers for Accord/Impala/Malibu/G6 etc.
Nothing implied this end as well, just curious.
Accord and Mazda6 won the RT comparo jointly, a couple of years back.
"I saw the MT article. The Accord was compared to camry because MT loves the camry and named it COTY. They were comparing the accord to the CURRENT benchmark in the segment. They werent indicating the 2007 model was a benchmark. I dont even think it was included in the last midsize car comparo they did because at that time they considered it surpassed."
The latest MT test was titled 'Battle of the Benchmarks.' As for MT not inviting the Accord, I remember about sometime early last year there was a Camry/Altima/Accord comparo in MT which the Accord won.
If you categorize the spread between MSRP and Invoice as a Toytoa discount, then I have nothing more to add to this part of the discussion - we will just have to agree to disagree
Historically Accord fleet sales have been very small.
"
DOn't need to elaborate - the previous malibu was a POS and its complete sales failure is an attestation to that. I am happy GM is really focusing on cars now; and the changes are there to see.
If features is all you care about, then you should wait for the Chinese cars - for sure they will have equal features at low, low prices.
"As I've stated about 5 times, GM dominates the segment regardless of how many brands it takes to do it. GM sells about 70k-80K non luxury midsize cars a month. Dont think Toyota or Honda match that number."
Stating over and over does not make it a fact. GM sells a lot of mid size cars, but these are different cars, not the same, not even badge engineered cars. Can't compare one model from one brand to 5 models from 5 brands.