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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I think a few people need a timeout. You know who you are.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Question for tlong: Who cares?

    Haven't we had enough of this benchmark and dominance crap?

    Maybe it has something to do with p.... envy syndrome!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Maybe it has something to do with p.... envy syndrome!

    For the little ears in this forum, he means "parking" envy; right m6? ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    For the little ears in this forum, he means "parking" envy; right m6?

    Oh, I thought he meant Power envy. I guess it depends on what you are doing while Parking (back seat). :surprise:
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Just as an fyi, when you're reading through 132 posts and answering some of them, you don't get to reading about what we shouldn't discuss until after you've made the postings.

    That may be why there is a lag in those posts shutting down, as many people haven't seen the messages yet.

    I agree, no more dominance or benchmark postings :P

    On to the cars, while I haven't yet seen the new Accord in person, I don't tend to like cars any bigger than the old one. In fact, I'd say my Acura TL is a tiny bit bigger than I prefer. For the Honda buyer who wanted a slightly smaller Accord, the new Accord is too much and the Civic may be too little. Alas...
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Do you think there are enough Hyundai dealerships around the USA? How about Kia? Wonder how it would work if both cars were available as Hyundai Kia dealerships, or would it just confuse people. Just think it would increase sales if you could find both of these cars at more dealerships.

    Mitsubishi, I hope has a plan. They are a rare find around these parts, both cars and dealerships. I see an occasional Galant, maybe an Evo or two, and a couple times a week say one of those new Eclipse is spotted running down the freeway. It ain't looking pretty. If you could buy say a Galant for a thousand under what a similar Sonata discounted down to a rock bottom price line , would you consider it?
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Ya know, they did shorten the Corvette. Seems like they super size most cars these day. I too, would prefer a little trim off the length, and in some cases the width of those way too wide. I am slowing adjusting to my Accord '07 after having the smaller PT to whip around in. This means that parking is not always too perfect. :blush: See no reason to raise the roof, as in yet another inch higher on the Accord, nor another three inches in length. They are expanding the CTS too. What was wrong with the current size? L
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    you don't get to reading about what we shouldn't discuss until after you've made the postings.

    Except the players involved already KNOW they shouldn't be discussing these things. This isn't the first (or second, or third, or fourth, or....) time this has happened. And it's always the same people. I've even been guilty a few times but enough is enough.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well actually the discussion was relevant, but hopelessly deadlocked.

    Hey, what is Ford doing these days. Have not heard about anything Bold yet. How about the RWD cars to come, if any? Maybe it is all in the skunk works, with some interesting stuff to be sprung upon us in a year or two??? Loren
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    You can (if you insist) get them to switch out the Fram for a SuperTech. Certainly not up there with Purolator, but Champion is certainly a cut above Fram.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Yes, but in the case of Honda, I am a bit confused. I asked about the standard filter used at the Honda dealership, and he said it is one made by Fram to Honda spec. Perhaps this it true, or true baloney. You are so right though, on most cars I would just opt for the SuperTech filter. They seem to not stock too many filters though in the SuperTech. Thanks for refreshing the memory on the SuperTech name and the Champion as the manufacturer. Good info.

    Wonder what happens if you take a Porsche Boxster in there for, what is it, some 8 qts. or more of synthetic. Would they have the filter, or be able to find the filter. Heck, even the Miata has a hard to get to filter. Of course the engine is easy to find. ;)

    Is it the Sonata which has some sort of new filter system where only a core is changed out? How does that work? - L
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I looked at the fram filters, and they are not the same as the Honda filters (totally different material used).
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Thanks - will check to see if I can read the label on the filter they used for the cars first oil change.

    Have you seen the new CTS? What ya think?

    goodnight from the left coast - L
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Have you seen the new CTS? What ya think?

    No, I don't go for "luxury cars". Too much $$ for things I don't even want. My Accord has a few things I could easily do without.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Hey elroy, I'll trade ya my heated mirrors and power-height seat for your dual climate control... whatdya say? ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I could do without the power on my own seat, but thanks anyway. The dual climate control is one I do like.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You can take my dual climate control. I'll trade it to you for passenger power seats.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I've never liked the CTS looks. To me it is too angular and vertical. But at least it is distinctive for those who do like it.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Hey, what is Ford doing these days.

    The Fusion and MKZ will be refreshed next year with exterior and (more importantly) interior tweaks (look at the Flex for a hint). Fusion gets a hybrid, the 3.5L engine, and a new 4 cylinder engine (2.5L I think). The MKZ should get the new 3.7L V6 and a new interior similar to the MKS (I'm guessing on that last one).

    The next generation Fusion/Milan/MKZ will now share the same platform as the European Mondeo. Ditto for the NA and Euro Focus. The new B car will be out in a couple of years and looks like it will be worth the wait.
    The new RWD North American platform will be a joint design with the Aussies called the Huntsman. Should replace all the current RWD cars and allow new products to be built like the Interceptor and MKR. Unfortunately it's in the early stages and won't be ready for at least 3 years.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    and whatever gave you the idea that corporate/muncipal fleet cars don't accumulate miles and don't suffer in resale (generally it's worse), you need to go to an auction or two, because new car dealers and higher end used car lots won't touch 'em - if you are not lucky (or foolish)enough to snare one of these beauties at auction you'll likely find someplace where it says 'your job is your credit', the down payment size is approximately what the guy paid for the silly thing, and boy would that guy just love to repossess it a few payments down the road!

    So wait, you mean to tell me that rental cars, which have only been driven very gently by the nicest of individuals (of course with the upmost concern for Mr. Hertz or Mr. Avis' investment in the vehicle they are piloting), or municipal vehicles (which are actually titled differently) that were merely driven by a city's caring and distinguished employees, are worth less in the resale market than a low mileage, one owner cream-puff? You don't say.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I know a 350HP FWD sedan is pointless but I like it. Probably the best looking Camry ever. Toyota NA should offer this one and call it Camry SE TRD.

    Why would they name a car a TuRD?
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Why would they name a car a TuRD?

    :) That notion popped into my head also.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Our MSRP $27,105 2007 AWD SEL Ford Fusion has some of the cheapest carpeting I have ever seen in a car, any car. Even the rug in our 2000 Ford Focus is of better quality.

    I guess its the bean counters at their finest but I would gladly trade the automatic dimming inside rear-view mirror for a better grade of carpeting. This stuff is really flimsy, Wal-Mart grade.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Boz - supposedly a lot of those things are being fixed with the 09 model out next year. Whether that includes the carpeting or not I'm not sure. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Boz - supposedly a lot of those things are being fixed with the 09 model out next year. Whether that includes the carpeting or not I'm not sure. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

    Allen, I believe FoMoCo really has a winner with the Fusion/Milan/MKZ trio. They are not perfect, of course, but very competitive in their respective market segments.

    I didn't notice the quality of the carpeting until I vacuumed. Hopefully Ford will continue to improve these models into the future.

    I also hope the government makes it mandatory that turn signal blinkers be incorporated into all outside rear-view mirrors. The Fusions don't have that but it is a very nice safety feature I believe.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think its a trend to reduce weight and cost. My '93 Accord interior is much more plush feeling than my '07.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    My '93 Accord interior is much more plush feeling than my '07.

    So, you're a two Accord family? Neat. Can you detect a lot of improvement in 14 years? How many miles on the '93? Was your experience with the 1993 what made you decide on the 2007? Just curious.

    Our overall satisfaction with a 1997 Thunderbird and with a 2000 Ford Focus was a factor in our decision to buy a 2007 Fusion.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Because any well educated person will ask what TRD is before calling it Turd...

    :sick:
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    It never ceases to amaze me how many things are going to be fixed "next model year", but never really seem to be accomplished. Think about it, interiors, mechanical, etc all seem to be lined up to be fixed "later". Is it impossible to fix things NOW for a change? I think of the example of fuel mileages. We have been promised better mileages now since the 1970's, but I don't see any significant changes. I remember several V-8's with true hwy averages in the upper 20's. Yes some vehicles are better, but most are not much different. Oh well, my .02 cents.
    van
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    So, you're a two Accord family? Neat. Can you detect a lot of improvement in 14 years? How many miles on the '93? Was your experience with the 1993 what made you decide on the 2007? Just curious.

    I am not a good person to ask. The '93 was just sold with 145k, the vehicle was not "maintenance free" over the course of its life, but it was acceptable. Honda was at the top of their game in the early 90s with fun sporty cars. I always liked the way the car drove, I thought the handling was very good. The 5 speed transmission was one of the best in the business (if the throws were a little long) and the car had an upscale feel (the fabrics and carpets felt very high quality). Even the sound system (an Alpine designed unit, I believe) was good for '93. I got about 30 mpg with it on my 20-30 minute commute, which is almost all highway with very little traffic - and I typically accelerate slowly although I cruise quickly).
    I really don't think you can compare the '93 to the '07, the '93 was a compact/midsized vehicle designed to be sporty and fun to drive, while still being economical. The '07 is designed to isolate the driver from the fact that they are driving. I guess its bigger, if that is how one measures improvement. It has 20 more horsepower, but its also several hundred pounds heavier. It has bigger wheels, but they use some obscure tire size so its much harder to find actual performance tires than it was for the old Accord. It does a great job holding an infant seat, but so did the old Accord (both in comparison to our Subaru Legacy, which does a lousy job, IMHO). Oh, it has an RKE that can also roll down the windows, like on VWs a few years ago, the old Accord didn't have a clicker thing. The sound system has a 6 CD changer but no input for an iPod (something the '93 offered via tape adapter).
    My experience with the '93 was not so positive as to influence future Honda purchases, but not so negative as to preclude them either.
    My biggest purchase factors were price and availability of a manual transmission. To that end, I think I did okay but not great. I am going back and forth with the idea of leaving it totally stock and selling it in 2-3 years, or modifying it into something I would enjoy more knowing I will be stuck with it forever.
    Actually, at this point, because the Legacy wagon does such a poor job with an infant seat, I might be swapping cars, and since the Legacy has a much sportier ride and driving feel, I might be okay with that.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Because any well educated person will ask what TRD is before calling it Turd...

    Nah, I am reasonably well educated and I even know what it stand for and still call it that. Its on all the Toyota trucks in CA. Its the same reason you don't see FaRT for Ford Racing Team.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, I guess it'll take a well educated person to not call TRD a turd. Not even a "reasonably" well educated person can manage to do that...

    Sad.

    :sick:
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    and choose the Chrysler mid-size vehicles for their next car?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    We have been promised better mileages now since the 1970's, but I don't see any significant changes

    Right. And there hasn't been any change in power or emissions requirements, either.

    The 1977 Trans-Am had a 6.6L V8 and only made 200 hp. My 3.0L Fusion makes 221 and it puts out far less emissions.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    In a way, it is sort of like the Old Jetta. Now they rounded off the Jetta and lost the style. I would agree, for most cars, it would be just "too" everything. For some reason, both the Jetta and CTS, after initial shock at first sight, became something I liked. I would normally be pulled towards only the smooth, lower and more rounded like say the wonderful Jag sedan.

    In its class the Fusion / Milan look pretty good. Most likely not the styling which has held it back from being a leader. Would be an interesting survey to do - which car, in mid-size, and under $25K looks the best to you? Just for a moment forget the all the other attributes, and only consider the looks. And in a larger sized car? L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well I just got an Accord with 244HP and my old '65 Mustang I had when a kid was 200HP, so there is another pair to compare. Gosh I think in the '76 Olds Starfire wasn't something like 110 or 120HP for V6 back then. A very rough V6, but it always chugged along. For bang for the buck, there is nothing like the new cars. Now if gas wasn't $3.25 per gallon, we would be in drivin' heaven.

    Now we should by now be seeing better fuel economy though on some cars. Due to weight of safety equipment and structure, without the expensive aluminum, it appears we are getting fatter. More plastics and aluminum eventually will come into play, I would guess, along with it higher prices.

    At 29 MPG freeway mileage, I am happy with my fuel economy when power is compared to the past, per amount of gas consumed.
    And a Honda is pretty clean burning. Actually, Ford, GM and a World of better cars for emission control is now available. So yes there is some progress. L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Sounds good for Ford !
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ... but why does car B have to be discounted twice as much as car A? Let's be fair here, at least.

    I gave a realistic example. Let me make it more concrete for you so that you can see it's a fair example:

    Car A = Accord EX-L V6 or Camry XLE V6 (with VSC option). MSRP on each is about $28k. There are no rebates on these cars. $2000 off is a pretty good discount at this time. Maybe some will get a better discount, but some will not.

    Car B = Sonata Limited V6. MSRP is about $25k. Typical rebates on the Sonata for the past two years have been $2000-3000, once the model-year changeover is done. Assume $2500 in rebates and near-invoice pricing for a total discount of $4000. This is a realistic discount based on reports from the Sonata Prices Paid discussion. Again, some will get better deals and some won't.

    If you don't think it's fair that not all automakers offer the same level of rebates and discounts on their mid-sized cars, don't complain to me about it. :surprise:
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I fear my next vehicle will be a minivan, and likely a Chrysler/Dodge one. Either that or convincing my wife we just need a Mazda5...although the manual trans will be a selling point for her.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I think it's fair, and I also believe one gets what they paid for.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    As long as you realize that a lot of what you are paying extra for on an Accord or Camry is brand image--which doesn't really help you unless you care about having other people see you driving a Honda or Toyota vs. something else.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, as long as you also realize that "paying extra for an Accord or Camry is brand image" in purely YOUR OPINION then I think we can move forward and talk about these cars in an objective basis.

    Maybe you can't see why Accord and Camry cost higher than its competitors but that doesn't mean that's the case in other people's eyes.

    Just so that you'll know, there are people out there drive a Honda or Toyota not because they care about how other people see them. It's because of they have good experience with the brand and they see something special in Accord and Camry's offering.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Would be an interesting survey to do - which car, in mid-size, and under $25K looks the best to you?

    I can honestly say I believe the 2007-08 Fusion is the best-looking mid-size car available today. It is distinctive in a very pleasing way. It stands out from the plain-Jane Asian lookalikes.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Selling say 27% as fleet and deep discounting the car, my guess is that Hyundai has yet to shake off the sins of the past. Time may heal everything, but unlike Honda, or say Subaru, the images of the early Hyundai cars is still in the minds of (many) buyers. Thus we have the warranty and deep discounting.

    Problem with the discounting is that it becomes a constant reminder of a car which is not making it in the market place, like the top contenders. It becomes a constant reminder, and tarnishes image. People, to a degree, may also be buying image as a part of the car. Think of a Jetta, when it was quite the thing. In my college town, there those Jettas due to the coolness factor and telling Daddy she needed a safe car, factors were just about the number one car around the campus. Bet it is a harder sell to get the kid to drive a Hyundai. Of course in my day, we bought our own car, and it would usually be used, or sometimes really used, depending on how much we could save.

    Then you have the dealership network -- is it strong for Hyundai?
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    A brand image follows years of engineer quality and a successful car. Pretty simple. I ended up with a Honda this time, as they offered a very good trade-in on my PT, plus a discount on the Accord which brought it easily into the same price range as say the Fusion/Milan, and a bit less price wise than the Aura XR, which had $1,500 off at the time. I still do not see why people believe that Japan makes do not make offers which are good. They may not deep discount or give away a car, but this is a good thing.

    If brand image fails to meet reality, any brand will drop off the map. So far the Big Two have not dropped off the map.

    Does this all mean that there are but two cars to choose from which make sense? OF COURSE NOT. All people are trying to get accross here on the board (well most are, with some fanatics) is that it is more than just image, though they have a good image which doesn't hurt sales, and that the total price in and out is going to be about the same or better in some cases. Not every case - it is possible that an Accord or Camry could in some scenario cost a couple thousand more, as well as, costing someone else a couple thousand less to own. Life has variables. Main thing is liking or loving what you own, and it not becoming a pain. There is no right or wrong here, but rather some interesting options. If they ever bring back inexpensive RWD mid-sized to smaller cars, we shall have even greater options. L
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Very true. I had a 93 Buick LeSabre LTD that I just had hauled away by Kars for Kids. On trips to Michigan from Chicago area I would consistenly get 29 and sometimes 30mpg straight highway. Over the years I would say my driving averaged about 50/50 city/hwy and I almost always averaged 24-25 mpg. That was a heavy, nice riding, quasi-luxury car. Now I see dinky 4cyl cars that have a hard time averging that. What gives?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The Lesabre had incredibly tall gearing - great for highway.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    You're right. I could tool along at 70 at about 2000 rpms. I can't remember the term but I had some kind of "sport package" that reduced the gearing some for more jump off the line but it still may have had the same 4th gear as other LeSabres. Anyway, I noticed my 4cyl Mazda6 runs at about 25,500rpms at 70. I think I'm going to end up getting very similar performance gas mileage wise. But I do love the way the 6 handles.
  • jlindhjlindh Member Posts: 282
    You might want to check the calibration on your tach!
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Brand image, aka brand reputation, aka supreme and legendary reliability with Honda & Toyota. So you pay more for the quality, which, in order to assume is 'just' image, you'd have to assume that Honda and Toyota deliberately decided to lower their standards ALL OF A SUDDEN and build lower quality vehicles like everyone else. (with few exceptions).
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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