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1. GM is making money and Ford did in the last quarter.
2. The majority of G6s I see are not rentals. You can easily tell if they are rentals by looking at the wheels and the sticker on the back. Rental G6s are not GTs and have the thin spoked 17" wheels or wheel covers.
3. A lot of Malibus are rentals although they have cut rental deliveries this year. That said, the car is in its last year and the rental dependence isnt surprising.
In case you missed it Ford and GM have been cutting fleet sales for some time now so I'm not quite sure why you are arguing that they should do something that is already being done.
I just saw an Accord rental car a few weeks back. We all know Camrys are being given to rental agencies in appreciable numbers.
You also failed to mention that not all fleet sales damage profitability and resale value- only daily rentals. Corporate and government sales are OK since they dont involve piling on 30k miles in a year and then putting the car into the used car market at low prices.
Secondly if you dont understand how a manufacturer cant dominate a segment without leading in sales I dont know what to tell you. A nameplate alone cannot dominte- you have to look at total sales. In that measure Honda and Toyota lose. What does "dominate" mean to you? Apparently not what it means to the rest of us.
If you want to reduce things to the platform level we can, GM's W platform cars outsell the camry and yes they are the same car underneath regardless of styling and brands. I would say GM sold about 550k W platform cars last year. There is your domination from ONE platform.
as I said, the domestic brands dominate the pickup market with about 80% share. I dont think Accord and camry have 80% share of midsizers."
Sure the Camry is sold to fleets, but is the percentage anywhere close to the GM ones? No
Second, we are not talking about a platform. Platforms may be similar but the cars are different, in fact today, cars and crossovers use same platforms. Should we combine them to say they are the same cars?
Nissan's FM platform underpins the G, Z, FX, Murano, cars, are they the same cars?
Mazda 3 and 5 share a platform, are they the same cars?
I can give examples all day long but that is not the point. GM makes cars under many brands, there is platform sharing but the cars are essentially different, or they would all be Chevys.
check the stock symbols for the companies. See if they say GM and Toyota or Camry and Impala. This is a GM vs Toyota vs Honda thing, names of cars dont matter when it comes to overall sales. You can spin it any way you want but at the end of the day GM sells more midsize cars than Toyota. They have different names but GM doesnt care what they are called as long as they can sell them. As I said, if nameplates are all that matter than F150 is best vehicle in the country hands down.
"If features is all you care about, then you should wait for the Chinese cars - for sure they will have equal features at low, low prices. "
based on that comment I suspect you havent even been exposed to the Chrysler cars. They offer a lot of high tech features such as bluetooth, DVD nav, 6 speed autos, on board HDs for music, etc. Only an Accord lover can make the argument that we should get less car for our money. I dont get that one at all. Aside from the looks and powertrain the Chrysler cars are just as competent as anything else in the class. And the Avenger has AWD which the Accord and camry do not.
Doesn't matter what you see. Get some numbers to support what you see.
Toyota's rate is increasing (Siennas, corollas, etc. are being rented too) and GM's is decreasing. YOu do the math on that one. If Toyota wants to continue to grow they will have to take on sales they would've shunned years ago. As a GM exec said- its much harder to generate huge monthly sales increases once you are moving the type of volume that Toyota is right now.
Personally I dont care much about rental cars- its just something that import leaning people use to disparage cars they dont like. And yet in Europe many of the cars we praise here in the US are used as police cars and taxis.
If GM and Ford continue to shrink their rental presence guess who is going to pick up the slack? Thats right, Toyota and Hyundai and Mazda and Nissan. Its already happening, I remember a time where you wouldnt find ONE import on an Enterprise lot. Now you can rent 3s, Altimas, Maximas, CAmrys, etc.
So we are discussing stocks symbols now?
"As I said, if nameplates are all that matter than F150 is best vehicle in the country hands down."
And as I responded, the Camry does not sell (unlike the F150) because its the most heavily discounted car in its category, on the contrary, its nearer the top in pricing. If the F150 was selling at a higher price than the GM/Chrysler trucks, and still was selling a lot more, than yes, there would have to be something in it to be able to do that.
"Only an Accord lover can make the argument that we should get less car for our money"
Once again, you delibertely misinterpret. What I said is that if features are all you care, buy Chinese cars. As for the Chrysler midsizers, I think everyone knows that they are a notch below most of their competition.
Assuming your figure of 30% is correct, don't you think that is high? And this for a new model? But anyway, like I said earlier, you are not going to get much argument from me on the direction GM is taking as far as cars go - its the right direction (IMO). That is why you see cars like the Aura etc. coming stateside.
no, I am trying to clarify that Impala and Camry are brands, not companies. GM and Toyota are the competing companies last time I checked. Perhaps my info is outdated though. Let me know what you find.
"And as I responded, the Camry does not sell (unlike the F150) because its the most heavily discounted car in its category, on the contrary, its nearer the top in pricing."
When the F150 was new it was still the top seller without the discounts. In fact its sales are down in spite of the huge discounts available now. Its been the best seller under all conditions for the last 30 years or so. Sorry, but rebates dont explain it.
Oh and since your into sales supremacy it should be noted the Explorer outsold the camry in the 90s. I guess that means it was the best family vehicle in the US market because the sales charts said so. And no most explorers were not being purchased by Hertz or contractors.
"Once again, you delibertely misinterpret. What I said is that if features are all you care, buy Chinese cars."
I didnt know Chinese cars were for sale. As for the Chrysler cars- they are inferior in the ways I mentioned but overall they offer a lot not found on their competitors from the US and Asia. The MyGig system is a class exclusive and is not found on Accord or Camry. If you have any substantive, objective reasons for calling them bad cars please share it.
It is possible that a '68 Malibu was however the standard in the industry. L
1. G6 is not new- its been out for 3 years
2. Show me the fleet sales % of Camry, Altima and Sonata and I will tell you if the G6 is too high.
3. I agree that GMs vehicles are moving in the right direction, but I disagree that their vehicles are far behind cars like the Accord.
I for one think that Toyota made a giant leap in sales with the new Camry, and not because it sold more to fleets. It used to sell in the 400k range and suddenly sold 481k last year. Clearly a quantum jump.
One thing I do agree is that I feel the interior quality of the Camry (at least the LE I drove) has fallen below its earlier standards - I feel even the current Accord has much better fit and finish than it. Let's see how the interior in the 08 turns out to be
L
interesting. C&D ranked the new camry behind Altima, Aura and Optima but you are telling me that Accord and camry are the "clear" benchmarks of the segment. Oh yes, and when edmunds did a price sensitive comparo with Accord, Sonata and Camry the Hyundai won. Yes, its unanimous that Accord and Camry are flawless.
Since its so easy to jack up production and sales numbers as you claim GM is doing with Impala why doesnt everyone else do it? You dont sell 300k copies of a car that has no demand. fleet sales are a part of the Impala's success, but not all of it. I guess all the LTZs and SS models I see are from Enterprise.
as do about 5 other cars. There is NOTHING exclusive about what Accord offers. It doesnt even have exclusive claims to resale value because Camry can say that as well. When it gets into performance, mileage and power the Accord is just another good midsize car like the rest. The 6 and Fusion are a little underpowered but the Aura and Altima are definitely matches for the Accord.
2. Show me the fleet sales % of Camry, Altima and Sonata and I will tell you if the G6 is too high.
3. I agree that GMs vehicles are moving in the right direction, but I disagree that their vehicles are far behind cars like the Accord."
1) G6 is not brand new but one of the new gen GM cars
2) Fleet sales per Akirby's post are below
Fusion/Milan combined - 8,310
Camry - 18,657
Sonata - 41,867
Altima - 14,087
For the Fusion/Milan, is means around 3-4%, for the Camry ot means around 3-4%, for the Altima, again, 3-4%
3) Where did I say that the current GM cars are far behind the Accord? Yes, the previous Malibu is, but that's the only one we discussed.
dont remember that one at all. got a link?
"Accord and Mazda6 won the RT comparo jointly, a couple of years back. "
R&T usually declares a clear winner based on its points system. Have a link to this Accord victory? I dont recall that one either. Accord always wins in C&D- in other publications its not so easy.
And helping someone choose a vehicle is the purpose of this discussion, believe it or not.
My bad, I thought Chevy and Toyota were companies, and Camry and Impala were models. Apologies.
"When the F150 was new it was still the top seller without the discounts. In fact its sales are down in spite of the huge discounts available now. Its been the best seller under all conditions for the last 30 years or so. Sorry, but rebates dont explain it."
You are contradicting yourself. in your intial posting about the F150, you said it sells more today due to the heavy discounts. Now you are saying it sells more than teh GM trucks because its a better truck? Okay.
"Oh and since your into sales supremacy it should be noted the Explorer outsold the camry in the 90s. I guess that means it was the best family vehicle in the US market because the sales charts said so. And no most explorers were not being purchased by Hertz or contractors."
I was not aware that the Explorer was a midsize car. The ones I see on the road look suspiciously like SUVs.
"The MyGig system is a class exclusive and is not found on Accord or Camry."
Okay, so now since it has MyGig, its a class leader? Pity no buyer knows about it
"I didnt know Chinese cars were for sale"
They will be, soon. You can save a lot of money if you have patience
Cobalt 39.7 %
Civic 2.2 %
Malibu 58.8 %
G6 36.2 %
Accord 4.7 %
Camry 7.7 %
Seems like it should be correct. Just look at all those rental units you see driving around the resort towns. L
It was a V6 Sonata vs the I4 Camcords. You fail to mention when Edmunds compared the V6 models, it rated both Camry and Accord over the Sonata
sales failure? check the facts, it outsold Fusion and Sonata last year and had higher sales in previous years. Again, do you have any real reasons the car was worse than last gen camry?
Don't have a link, check out MTs acrhives.
"R&T usually declares a clear winner based on its points system. Have a link to this Accord victory? I dont recall that one either. Accord always wins in C&D- in other publications its not so easy."
RT picked the Accord in first place, but there was a points total error so they declared the 6 and Accord as joint winners, sicne they had the exact same total points. This was done in the following issue. I am sure one of the Mazda lovers can attest to this.
Sorry, those numbers were mid year 2006 instead of the full year which I don't understand based on the document title. I was trying to use a full year instead of a half year since fleet sales are not necessarily spread evenly throughout the year. Let me see if I can find the entire MY 2006 numbers.
Are you counting the Malibu or all Chevy models when you say that? Assuming its true, you are aware that Ford has deliberately limited fleet sales for the Fusion/Milan?
What is a MyGig system? I am not familiar with that.
In the real world money matters and the V6 Sontata cost as much as I-4 Accord and Camry. Its not "unfair" that they compared vehciles of similar price and there is no need for me to specifically mention that.
In the 2nd test the camry was all new and costed thousands more than Sonata. It would be nice if thousands didnt matter but they do. For 4 grand more the camry should be better than the Hyundai. Dont you think?
rental sales will do that for you. Do you recall seeing camrys for rent 3 or 4 years ago? I dont.
The Camry, Accord, Mazda 6 all average around 33% after 5 years.
The Fusion and Aura are around 28%, and the Malibu and Sonata are at a measly 23%.
In the 2nd test the camry was all new and costed thousands more than Sonata. It would be nice if thousands didnt matter but they do. For 4 grand more the camry should be better than the Hyundai. Dont you think? "
I never said that comparison was unfair. I just pointed out that when they compared similar cars, the Camry/Accord were rated higher.
Are you now agreeing that the Camry is a better car than cars it costs more than? That's how I would interpret this comment:
"For 4 grand more the camry should be better than the Hyundai. Dont you think? "
who cares about EPA classes? The impala is in the same price range as camry and competes with it. Now that the Accord is full size are you going to say it doesnt compete with Altima and Camry?
EPA terms dont mean much to people shopping for family cars that are all within 10 cu ft of each other in interior space.
Did Toyota sell 81k Camry's to rentals last year?
So the Malibu and Impala are competitors?
there is no "now agreeing" at all. The current camry is better than the Sonata overall, the last camry was not. I already stated the Sonata was better than camry when it came out in 2005. A C&D test said the same thing. The question is whether or not the 2007 camry is better than the 2007 sonata when cost is factored in. That is a tougher one to answer.
the V6 versions of the two cars are competitors.
Are Accord and TSX competitors? what is your point?
When CD picks the Accord, you don't trust it, but when it picks somehting you are arguing about, you use it as fact. Funny, isn't it?
I don't think anyone ever said Accord and Camry win ever road test. If say a Mercedes sedan won a test against a Bimmer, that would make the Mercedes the new standard in the industry? Perhaps if many cars, or even the same car did that in test after test, then you have a clear picture of an industry standard. Always find it interesting when GM compares their V6 to another car with an i4. Not that it is any better. ( i did not say any worse ).
If a person has $30K to spend, they are discounting the $34K CTS down to that level, and they may go lower. And I may add, the '07 looks better to me. So those willing to pay $30K for a loaded FWD, may have another option to buy a Caddy RWD for the same $$$$
L
Really? bet GM didn't know that
Are Accord and TSX competitors? what is your point?"
My point is that you can't combine Malibu and Impala sales and neither does Chevy, forget GM.
but my question is who said you dont get those factors in the Chrysler cars? I've seen no evidence of poor panel fits on those cars. Have you? I sat in the Sebring at the auto show and I dont like the design too much but the materials were no worse than current camry. Have you even sat in the cars? I just heard a consultant I work with say he rented an Avenger and it was a very nice car, he said he was very surprised and he would love to drive one again.
Chrysler has a better powertrain warranty than Camry or Ccord so I'm not sure how you figure that you sacrifice quality by getting one of their products.
not a Chrysler fan but I am a fan of the truth.
And that's the truth as you see it? You need glasses. Chrysler interiors reek of hard, poor quality plastics, anyone with open eyes can see that. Even with Camry's current interior, there is no comparison. Forget even mentioning the Accord.
G6 58,477 Total 148,618 39.3%
Mazda6 15,365 Total 65,343 23.5%
Altima 19,237 Total 225,901 8.5%
Accord 2,380 Total 354,609 less than 1%
Camry 29,762 Total 385,216 7.7%
Impala 101,019 Total 283,315 35.7%
Malibu 76,536 Total 177,456 43.1%
While Camry percentages are low due to high overall sales you can see the actual numbers are quite high. And note this is only rental fleet sales, not overall fleet sales.
http://www.fleet-central.com/af/t_pop_pdf.cfm?action=stat&link=http://www.fleet-- central.com/af/stats2007/26_Registrations.jpg
http://www.fleet-central.com/af/t_pop_pdf.cfm?action=stat&link=http://www.fleet-- central.com/af/stats2007/27_Registrations.jpg
1487 - there you have the numbers. g6 is 39.3% fleet, camry 7.7%.
Camry sold a total of 29,762 to fleets last year. The overall increase in Camry sales over 2005 is much higher, and Camry's were selling to fleets in 2005 as well. So clearly the sales increase is not purely from rentals.