Midsize Sedans 2.0

1487

no Malibu sold about 163k copies last year which is more than sonata and fusion as far as I know. And GM was cutting fleet sales as well. I'm sure 2005 numbers were higher than that. The car was not a failure as you stated. As I said, it was wholly competitive with the old camry. boxy styling, great fuel economy, nice interior space, good crash scores, etc.

kdshapiro

"not a Chrysler fan but I am a fan of the truth."

I agree, if the truth be told, the Avenger for example, is not on the same standard as the Accord. But I'll leave it to the reader to determine the relative value of Chrysler products.

03accordman

"no Malibu sold about 163k copies last year which is more than sonata and fusion as far as I know. And GM was cutting fleet sales as well."

I seriously doubt the Malibu sold more than the Sonata last year. Pitted against the Fusion, it comes out worse, just sold about 20k copies more, while Fusion was not being sold much to rentals.

captain2

this should surprise no one that gets disappointed (we actually all do) with trade-in allowances or don't necessarily equate lower prices with 'value'.

1487

"When CD picks the Accord, you don't trust it, but when it picks somehting you are arguing about, you use it as fact. Funny, isn't it? "

C&D is very inconsistent in its decisions. Some make sense based on the facts and some dont. The facts clearly show the 2006 sonata had surpassed the camry in safety features, price and performance. The C&D comparo backed that up. They arent wrong all the time. When they rank a 2007 accord above the rest of the field in spite of medicore styling, features and performance scores I get a little skeptical. Based on the price and performance of the cars in their last test there was now logical reason for the Accord to win. Of course thats why they include "gotta have it" factor- they can always skew the results if the objective data doesnt support their preferred winner.

If you know of ANY comparo where the old camry beat the 2006 sonata let me know.

1487

"My point is that you can't combine Malibu and Impala sales and neither does Chevy, forget GM. "

And why cant you? Since both cover the same territory as camry they are both camry competitors. In the $20k-$30k range Chevy sells as many family sedans as Toyota. How about that? How does that fit into your argument that the Camry "dominates" the segment?

jeffyscott

at least with the Honda you won't have a dead battery when the car is brand new; it should last you 50 months.

Golly, my crappy Ford battery was still working just fine after 8 years in Wisconsin. I proactively replaced it at that point.

Oh yeah, and my last oil change at the Ford dealer was $3 including taxes and fees, with a coupon. :P

kdshapiro

This is not a manufacturer discussion, this is a model discussion. Within the model discussion, sales numbers indicate Accord and Camry dominate. Why don't you start another discussion in news and views to talk about GM vs Toyota and Honda. GM sells more cars than Honda, but there is no individual model (of which you lump everything into GM) that outsells the benchmarks, Accord and Camry.

1487

been in accord and TSX. what does that have to do with NEW Sebring? I am not talking about the old model which had a terrible interior.

1487

"Within the model discussion, sales numbers indicate Accord and Camry dominate. Why don't you start another discussion in news and views to talk about GM vs Toyota and Honda. GM sells more cars than Honda, but there is no individual model (of which you lump everything into GM) that outsells the benchmarks, Accord and Camry. "

you cannot dominate without a majority share of any class. its that simple. Accord and camry are best two selling nameplates- thats where it ends. They dont dominate anything and I wouldnt expect them to considering the level of competition in this segement. Do we need to look up the word dominate? As someone stated, the camry has a little over 10% of the midsize market. That isnt close to domination in my book. If sales equal benchmarks than Toyota nor Honda are the benchmarks when it comes to the midsize market since they are being beat by a competitor. Honda doesnt even outsell Chevy in midsize cars, much less GM as a whole.

m1miata

I think you missed this:
Malibu 58.8 % fleet sales
Impala, which is the next size up from the Camry is similar in fleet sales, as in growing at an ever increasing percentage as fleet.

You can combine the two, Malibu and Impala to try to come up with some sort of win over the Camry, but let's do it with non-fleet sales all around and see what happens. Not that it really matters. Only matters with GM to keep the numbers looking good and keep the workers working on the lines. Can't be too great a profit on fleet, but then again, it makes bucks so more power to them. It is however not a positive for the new car buyer. Used GM are usually pretty inexpensive cars, so I guess, as in the past, you buy domestic used, or deep discounted and Japan makes as new -- an old rule, which seems to still apply.

The numbers game may be great fun, but it is time to get back to which cars are best, and why does one think they are the best. L

1487

"1487 - there you have the numbers. g6 is 39.3% fleet, camry 7.7%.

Camry sold a total of 29,762 to fleets last year. The overall increase in Camry sales over 2005 is much higher, and Camry's were selling to fleets in 2005 as well. So clearly the sales increase is not purely from rentals. "

that isnt current info. The 06 MY began in September 2005 which was two years ago. G6 sales are down this year, most likely due to lower fleet penetration.

Camry sales increases are most likely due to aggressive discounting by Toyota and dealers. Just like they are doing with Tundra.

1487

"I think you missed this:
Malibu 58.8 % fleet sales
Impala, which is the next size up from the Camry is similar in fleet sales, as in growing at an ever increasing percentage as fleet.
"

I think you missed that those numbers are from data nearly two years old. Not exactly current. As you and I both know GM has been reducing fleet sales in calendar year 2007 so I am sure MY07 charts would be different from the ones we are discussin here.

Again, I dont really care about fleet sales that much. I have to discuss it because any discussion about domestic vehicles that sell well comes back to "thats only because of fleet sales". If anyone can tell me how fleet %'s prove that a car is crap let me know. Rental cars are usually base models that lack the best engines, features, suspensions and what not. Just like a base 328i isnt the same as an M3 a base rental car isnt the best of the line of a particular car. On the other hand I have heard some people say they drive stripped rentals and are surprised at how much they like the cars since they get their "facts" from forums like this that teach you every domestic car is a unrefined POS.

m1miata

Here are the numbers for the first half of '07, since you claim that Accord doesn't outsell Chevy in the midsize:
Malibu = 64,227 cars sold and 58.8% as fleet
Accord = 163.551 cars sold with 4.9% as fleet
large car...
Impala = 148,699 cars sold with 53.9% as fleet

Are you combining the mid and large cars?
Well, even if you did so, then took away the fleet sales, you have a double flop with the GM cars. Sorry, that be the fact.

This does NOT mean one should eliminate an Impala off a shopping list, as it has its place, is a bit larger than others in its price range, it looks OK and gets decent gas mileage. To each his own, so try befor ya buy and see if it fits your style. Likewise the NEW or shall we say new to Malibu to come out, should be a very decent car to compare with the rest. New however would imply it is not related to the New First Ever G6, that other Epsilon. No, the New Malibu is an American Evolution of the Epsilon platform, this time taking form as a Chevy.
Loren

1487

" seriously doubt the Malibu sold more than the Sonata last year."

if you can find data to back that up let me know. The sonata sells 12k-14k units a month from What I've seen. I believe it was around 150k units last year.

m1miata

No, I posted the Blog URL and it is for the first half of 2007. Where did you think all those wonderful sales of the old Impala came from? Overnight people got up in the morning and said, " gee honey, I need a new Impala to get my excitement level in life up - take the kids, let's go to Chevy, whoo-hoo! " Get real ! L

m1miata

Nope, talking about first half of 2007
link

1487

"Here are the numbers for the first half of '07, since you claim that Accord doesn't outsell Chevy in the midsize: "

I didnt know fleet sales dont count as sales. Thanks for clearing that up. Let me ask a question: whats the difference between Toyota chopping $4k off camrys to keep production up and GM selling Impalas to companies and govs to keep production up? The bottom line is that companies make moves to keep demand high and production lines moving. The "natural" demand for Impala and Camry would be far lower without rebates, fleet sales, etc.

Is that info from calendar 2007? I assume you will give us the link.

1487

" I need a new Impala to get my excitement level in life up - take the kids, let's go to Chevy, whoo-hoo! " Get real !"

Yes! because the camry is the #1 selling car because its so SEXY! Get real! Please dont be silly enough to suggest the Impala is more "boring" than the top selling Asian cars.

m1miata

The difference is you have the rental returns back as used cars, flooding the markets at super discounted prices, which trust me are lower than $4K off the hood. And the car becomes a bit less glamors when viewed as a taxi cab, company car, or rental beater unit. Sorry, it is not a good image maker. It also means you know that the car has no other way of being moved off the lot. Can we say a desperate move. As for pricing on Camry and Tundra, I personally believe they got out of line, as in pricing high, like GM does, then discounting. This is not good. Better to price closer to reality. For the buyer, even $4K discounts off on Camry is preferred to having it become a rental queen status. The new Sebring is doomed. Loren

kdshapiro

"you cannot dominate without a majority share of any class"

Sure you can. The Camry is the best selling individual mid-size model, and also happens to be one of the benchmarks. See how easy that was. Not comparing GM to Toyota. Comparing model against model.

jeffyscott

How about some submissiveness.

If the biggest selling model has a little over 10% of the midsize market then NO ONE is dominating this market. The camry is the biggest selling midsize model, this does not equal dominance, if 90% of buyers are choosing something else. But in any case, let that "debate" end.

Now when one silly argument accounts for 90% of posts in the last couple of days...that's dominance.

About the only thing worth reading in the last couple days here was the list of "benchmarks".

1487

Continue to buy Hondas and you will be fine. I dont base what cars I like on rental sales numbers. I mean its a good thing domestic cars do have this rental issue for you to talk about day in and day out because in terms of performance, quality and features the difference between these cars is minimal. But lets not talk about any of that- any car that is rented is crap- as long as its not a Nissan or Toyota product of course.

BTW, what is the acceptable fleet %? I see that the 6, Sonata, Optima, Galant, etc. have pretty high fleet %'s. The Altima is better but still much higher than Accord and higher than Lucerne (different class of course). Is that acceptable? Is 20% the cut off between "smart business" and "rental crap"? Just let me know where we draw the line.

1487

"Sure you can. The Camry is the best selling individual mid-size model, and also happens to be one of the benchmarks. See how easy that was. Not comparing GM to Toyota. Comparing model against model"

I'm still trying to figure out who ever called the prior generation Camry the benchmark in anything but sales. Best sales dont equal benchmark as evidenced by comparing Silverado or Tundra sales to that of the F150. See how easy that was?

The last gen camry was the eptiome of a mediocre car but it didnt matter because its the camry and its the default car choice for many people. The current car at least stands a chance of being considered a benchmark. According to my count it has won one comparo and lost three. Benchmark indeed.

kdshapiro

"I'm still trying to figure out who ever called the prior generation Camry the benchmark in anything but sales."

I'm still trying to figure out who didn't. Seems to me Toyota has figured out how to build a car the masses want. That by definition is a benchmark. The reputation of the manufacturer combined with the reputation of the car equals success.

As you put it, I wish I had a business that has failed as miserably as the Camry. Benchmark indeed!

akirby

Point of clarification: the numbers I posted were Rental Fleet sales only, not total Fleet sales. As was already stated commercial fleet sales are good because they don't flood the used car market with high mileage vehicles like rental fleets do.

The numbers for GM (Impala, Malibu, G6) are only down by 1% -5% for the first half of 2007 (again only talking about rental fleet sales) so while they are reducing rental fleet sales it's not by much.

captain2

and 53%+ of G6 sales to fleets is not a majoriry? must be the new math. actually surprised that number isn't higher. GM as well as the members of the former Big 3 are so immersed in red ink over the last several years that they could accidentally have 20 or 30 more marginally profitable quarters and still not have to pay a dime of income tax as they all strive to close down more US plants putting more Americans out of work, open them in Canada, Mexico, the Orient etc etc. And no 'sales' are 'OK' when it involves losing $2500 on each and every car 'sold' as GM was doing in 2005. And those mfgrs. with the strange sounding names? Talk to those folks that happen to live in Alabama, Ky., Tn., Tx., cALIF. ETC ETC. and ask them about the quality of their schools. Since only you seem to 'know' that Camrys are being given away to rental agencies (7% NOT 53% of production) that fact????? of yours must obviously be reflected in the $10 Billion Toyota made during the same period GM lost that much. Give me (and us) a break!
Congratuations on finally seeing an Accord rental, I saw a red sports car on a rental lot - had something of a prancing horse on it - what are the odds that you could find an Accord about the same time I saw an Enzo? Maybe it was the same rental agency - you think?
and whatever gave you the idea that corporate/muncipal fleet cars don't accumulate miles and don't suffer in resale (generally it's worse), you need to go to an auction or two, because new car dealers and higher end used car lots won't touch 'em - if you are not lucky (or foolish)enough to snare one of these beauties at auction you'll likely find someplace where it says 'your job is your credit', the down payment size is approximately what the guy paid for the silly thing, and boy would that guy just love to repossess it a few payments down the road!

03accordman

First you say enough of this dominance discussion, then you go and write a post on it.

If being a market leader day in and day out does not mean dominance over other manufacturers, I don't know what dominance menas.

Anyway, I am not going to comment on this anymore.

03accordman

"I'm still trying to figure out who ever called the prior generation Camry the benchmark in anything but sales. Best sales dont equal benchmark as evidenced by comparing Silverado or Tundra sales to that of the F150. See how easy that was?"

You don't get it, do you? F150 analogy is irrelevant to Camry.

m1miata

The Altima and Corolla saw some increases in fleet to move stock, as they neared the end of the previous design. Not sure about Corolla, but I am thinking a new '08 is out soon or they will introduce the '09 early on in 2008. The Corolla is aging and with it the higher fleet sales start coming in to view.

I never said rental is crap. I assume that some is, and some is not. You tend to keep using words which demean your cars, I thought you liked. I do think it can ruin the image though, if all you see driving the G6 are those on vacation. Ponitac will likely ax the G6 altogether, or at the least change it to RWD from Australia. The New Malibu is the great hope of Epsilon. The Aura is a flop sales wise. All they need in the Saturn line was to import the Opels as Opels with as much Euro left in them as possible. The Aura XR, BTW is a sporty and shall we say fun little GM car, and worthy of comparison testing with the best of the best in its class. That said, the New Malibu with the 3.6 will be very much the same car. Just give us a couple good mid-sized. From SAAB all the way downward to G6, there are just too many Epsilons, with more on the way.

How is the health of SAAB these days? Are the buyers new buyers, or are the old loyalist buying cars like the 9-3? Is the 9-3 a SAAB?
L

captain2

I dont base what cars I like on rental sales numbers
now this ican actually understand and agree with - until the point that i want to trade it in and get hit squarely in my back pocket.

urnews

the "puddle lights" that are built into our 2007 AWD SEL Fusion's outside rear-view mirrors (which also have heating elements in them). These handy lights illuminate downward, lighting the ground around the bottom of the door. They come on when the key fob is used to unlock the door. Nice feature.

Like so many others, I am tired of reading about "benchmarks" and the never-ending debate about what the sales figures mean.

Our Fusion also has a six-speed automatic transmission that is ultra smooth yet downshifts rapidly when you need extra "go" for merging or passing. It's really sweet.

m1miata

What you all think about the Cadillac CTS '07 if discounted say $5K off? I am thinking there is an opportunity for some people to get a Cadillac for below $30K. And the new '08 may be parked right next to it, so you can compare. To each his own, but I am still liking the original look. The car is a mid-size, as in slightly smaller than an Accord '07, so it can be included here as a car of discussion. I hear of monster priced FWD cars in this class, now topping the $30K, so why not consider the CTS. They look hot in red. The white and off white looks good too. OK, a lot of different colors, as it wears most of them well, though I am thinking the silver is not a bright enough silver.
gotta run now... or walk that is, Loren

Karen_S

Now that sounds like a great idea for a blog! Those who wish to continue to expound on that subject can go to their CarSpace page and create a blog. Comments can be posted there. :shades:

thegraduate

Do you recall seeing camrys for rent 3 or 4 years ago? I dont.

Yep. I specifically remember them in our area - most were Gold Camry LEs.

thegraduate

Oh thank you THANK YOU. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can we get back to the meat of this discussion; the VEHICLES and not their sales numbers, etc.?

pat

The purpose of this discussion really isn't to debate benchmarks, fleet sales, manufacturers' moves and missteps, etc. The Auto News board and/or blogs are the best places for that sort of thing.

We are supposed to be comparing the features and the attributes of the actual vehicles in this class. Karen has made a terrific suggestion and I hope those of you who are interested in these side topics will follow through.

I have to tell ya - my mother used to say she'd argue with a gatepost if only the gatepost would talk back. I think some of you guys must feel the same! :sick: :P

(get us back in the groove, grad - or anyone!)

andres3

Someone would offer to buy 400,000 Passats to illustrate to you that even though VW doesn't have the capacity to make them right now, they would in an awful hurry if they had 400,000 guaranteed sales.

The reason they don't have the capacity is because they don't have the demand for it!

jeffyscott

Our Fusion also has a six-speed automatic transmission that is ultra smooth yet downshifts rapidly when you need extra "go" for merging or passing. It's really sweet.

I switched from manual to automatic when I got my mazda6 and have been pretty happy with the functioning of the auto. Mine is a 5 speed, because I have the 4 cyl...but it drops down 2 gears really quickly when you step on it, too.

The other thing I like is it will go to redline before upshifting when you are flooring it. Does the 6 speed in the fusion do that, also?

In the past I had read about automatics that limit the revs to around 5000...that was for the Contour. I assume that was a common practice. I am curious to know if it still is?

akirby

Please stop.

louiswei

This is actually the Australian Toyota Aurion.

I know a 350HP FWD sedan is pointless but I like it. Probably the best looking Camry ever. Toyota NA should offer this one and call it Camry SE TRD.

backy

Someone posted earlier that some mid-sizers have a much lower residual percentage than others. While that is interesting data, it shouldn't be taken by itself.

Example:

Car A (well-equipped V6 mid-sized sedan with alloys, moonroof, ESC, leather etc.): MSRP $28,000, purchase price $26,000, residual after 5 years 33% of MSRP, value after 5 years $9240, loss in value from purchase price $16,760.
Car B (comparably-equipped V6 mid-sized sedan): MSRP $25,000, purchase price $21,000, residual after 5 years 23% of MSRP, value after 5 years $5750, loss in value from purchase price $15,250.

It's not just about percentages... it's about $$$$ out of pocket. The car with the higher residual/resale percentage does not necessarily cost you less in real dollar depreciation.

elroy5

So car A can only be bought for $2,000 off MSRP, but car B can be had for $4,000 off? Easy when you manipulate the figures to favor the less expensive car. And if car A is more disireable, wouldn't it be worth a little more $$$ out of pocket? If I like car A more, I will be inclined to keep it longer, which will make the "true cost to own" lower.

jeffyscott

And what if someone likes car B better, should they be frightened off based on differences in the percentage of depreciation?

He is just pointing out that higher resale value does not automatically mean lower net cost. The example was designed to demonstrate this, why is that a problem?

The point that is being made does not require that one car is discounted more than the other or that the residual value percentage is based on MSRP, rather than actual average selling price. A car that sells for $30,000 and loses 1/4 of that value will cost more than one that sells for $21,000 and loses 1/3.

tlong

BTW, I have seen the Malibu in the flesh at my local autoshow. If you are aware of any glaring issues with the new Malibu let us know since you are convinced that its totally new vehicle that could be a complete disaster.

I didn't say that and it couldn't be farther from the truth, you are wildly exaggerating. I thought you were facts-based?

Please note I dont bash imports, I just state facts that others seem to ignore.

It looks like you weren't sticking to facts. Please work on this.

urnews

That is one bad (as in good) looking Camry, even though I would never buy a Toyota.

tlong

2. The majority of G6s I see are not rentals. You can easily tell if they are rentals by looking at the wheels and the sticker on the back. Rental G6s are not GTs

Just fyi, the rental G6 I had in North Carolina from Alamo during the summer WAS a GT. I wrote a fairly positive evaluation of the car.

elroy5

And what if someone likes car B better, should they be frightened off based on differences in the percentage of depreciation?

If someone thinks car B is better, they should buy car B. That's simple enough, but why does car B have to be discounted twice as much as car A? Let's be fair here, at least.

thegraduate

Question for the audience: Which manufacturer dominates the midsized sedan segment when fleet sales are removed for all? In other words, which manufacturer dominates in sales to the public? Is it GM, Toyota, or Honda?

Oh for the love of Lotus PLEASE don't answer that, audience. This forum is on its way to being shut down with this crap. The host has asked MULTIPLE times to stop this.

m1miata

Look OK, and somewhat like the rest. I take it you have seen the New Malibu photos. Hard to get overly excited these days about any of the new stuff. Is the New Accord out in the showroom yet? I would say the Altima, when new was refreshing as sort of an inexpensive Passat, and the CTS was really something new. Don't know if there is much in the way of new breathtaking stuff. The Milan and to a degree Fusion I kinda like in a way, even with the big butt. Other like the Aura, just fine, with a possibly more exciting version as the New Malibu with its sporty interior. All these seem to blur or is that blend into one. Anyway, the Camry, as shown with a new nose would work wonders. Plastic surgery is so successful these days in nose jobs.
L