When asked about the upcoming 'Volt" at the Detroit Auto Show, Rick Wagoner constantly emphasized that they (GM) need to bring the cost down in order to make this a viable car. Is that all he can think about? bringing costs down? Isn't that thinking what got him in this mess in the first place? I'd rather hire an illiterate bean counter for a piddly amount if this is what he believes that a CEO should be focusing on when developing a new car. Not that it is not important, but certainly he should not make it a public message.
If the company you work for ask you to take a pay cut and then few month's later they lay you off how while you feel?
That is exactly what happened to us in about 1985. The company asked us to open the contract for a wage reduction. It was that or they would have to lay off half the crew. We opened it up and took a $525 per week cut in pay. Five months later they laid off the bottom 4 employees. Cutting the crew in half. There were many Union contracts that got cut worse than ours. The IBEW took a $5 per hour cut in pay. They never did catch up to us. Our cut was hours on our shift. So when things picked up we were back on 10-12 hour days and making good money again. If there is no money something has to give.
>The same thing goes on at Delphi with workers getting done in 4 hours and going home. I have no problem with piece work, as long as QC is maintained. But the UAW would scream if that was implemented.
Tell me about it. They actually make bad parts so that they can be called back on OT to make good parts :sick:
"......Again every thing you have posted is a smokescreen to avoid the issue of UAW running the Domestic auto industry into the toilet."
Did the UAW decide to build the Ciera, and Century, virtually UNCHANGED, from 1982 to 1996 (that's 15, FIFTEEN model years)??? Ah.....nope.
Did the UAW dicide the Chevy Astro was OK as is for 20, that's TWENTY model years???? Again.....noooope.
Did the UAW decide to leave faulty designed rear calipers in the GM10 bodies for 5 years, leading to a class action suit??? Nope, nope, nope.
Did they strike the Fairfax, Ka. (Malibu) plant last year, YES, and shame on them. Shame on them for the 1998 strike as well as striking the Lambda plant last year too.
They do have their fair share of the blame, but I would HARDLY say that THEY (alone) are running the Big 3 into the ground, which is what you are insinuating.
I think one of the reasons that the [non-permissible content removed] 3 aren't as vocal about the bailout as their reps in the Senate are is they know that if you force concessions on the UAW, then the UAW built vehicles become more competitive price-wise. This may force them to try and cut costs (re: wages and bennies, and maybe even lesser quality materials) to maintain their edge, which could have a serious backlash.
"......Market Share is low because vehicles are not competitive."
Would you say that ABC, NBC, and CBS have lost market share because they aren't competitive??? I would say cable turned their industry upside down.
While I agree that the Big 3 have largely ignored their CARS (not trucks), the fact is that people have more choices today.
People tripped all over themselves in the mid '80's to get a Hyundai or a Yugo. Why??? They were CHEAP!!!! That is probably STILL the #1 reason they buy Hyundai's and Kia's today.
I think that one thing that the D3 as a whole and GM in particular don't get is that the competitions is on a 5 year cycle for cars while they are going for refreshes that are longer than that. That gave us a Cavalier that lasted through 4 different Civic and/or Corollas.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
".....It is pandering to the working class voters."
WOW!!!!! Who'd have thought that CONGRESS would actually pander to the people who PUT THEM THERE as opposed to overpaid suits who lobby for special interests and other countries.
They do have their fair share of the blame, but I would HARDLY say that THEY (alone) are running the Big 3 into the ground, which is what you are insinuating.
That is all I was saying that they have to share in the blame. I have implicated management as much or more than the UAW in the demise of the domestic auto industry.
Did the UAW decide to build the Ciera, and Century, virtually UNCHANGED, from 1982 to 1996
I don't know. Did the work rules make it too expensive to upgrade the process for newer better designed models? With 2200 pages of what the workers will and will not do, does present a lot of issues to making changes.
Now that GM is trying to get enough money to pay for parts already delivered and health care for retirees, the UAW is attempting to block the bailout with their "no more concessions" protests. I believe the tax payers in this country are not very sympathetic to the UAW cause. From where I sit the UAW would rather take down GM than give up any of their wages or benefits. They keep saying they gave up all they are going to. Well it does not look like the rank and file have given up much of anything. Giving up wages benefits for new hires is pathetic and selfish if you ask me. The few and the proud that are left have given up nothing. The 65,000 UAW workers that are left are willing to take down the whole industry to maintain their lifestyle. You know the 3 million workers the UAW claims will lose their jobs. I got to tell you most of those jobs are going away no matter what the UAW does. I imagine as many as a third are already part of the recession statistics. If the UAW keeps GM from getting the money they will go down in flames with the rest of the domestic workforce. And then my insinuation will be true.
PS My original post was to DD who continually avoids the UAW issue by throwing in totally irrelevant information.
WOW!!!!! Who'd have thought that CONGRESS would actually pander to the people who PUT THEM THERE as opposed to overpaid suits who lobby for special interests and other countries.
They also bailed out the banks that give them huge donations. They have not bailed out the working class people that have lost their homes. That is because they are not represented by a Union that get special treatment from the Democrats in Congress. If you feel that catering to special interests is the way our government should be run. Then you should be happy about the bailout for the UAW. The little guy that is not rich enough alone or collectively is left out in the cold by our current Congress.
Agree with your comparison to the stodgy T3 networks. NBC is trying to revamp themselves as a politically aligned network along with their cable subsidiaries to gain market. CBS has added Katie. ABC ????.
I watch primarily cable Fox, TLC, History, CNBC, etc.
There is a difficulty involved for the T3 networks to change themselves and still maintain advertisers which parallels the B3's problems in revamping themselves and adjusting to compete in a new world. Similarly the cable-based companies have fewer controls on what they can and can't do as did the foreign brands coming in with no legacy retired labor force. A very interesting parallel you've brought up. Thanks.
>They were CHEAP!!!!
I believe another factor in the popularity of small, small cars in the 70s and 80s was that they were economical on gas. The term was (is) econoboxes for the little ones.
".....They also bailed out the banks that give them huge donations. They have not bailed out the working class people that have lost their homes."
But, just like the possibility if the D3 don't live up to congress demands the loans can be called in, there lies the possibility that Congress can call in the banks TARP loans if they don't start loaning the money.
AT least GMAC took their $6 bil and started giving it to customers.
If the company you work for ask you to take a pay cut and then few month's later they lay you off how while you feel?
The fools here are hell bound on blaming this nations ills on the UAW. Its a fools errand at best and nothing but a silly argument as we see the imports/transplants suffering. In round one we saw all the asinine loans made that resulted in foreclosures, gee those folks were brilliant. Then we see plant closings which will also result in more foreclosures to those who were worthy of loans, thats going to make things better. Over 70,000 businesses will close this year. Just how many jobs have to be lost before we see this as a national thing? Each stimulus check given has done more to stimulate the economy in China than ours as was intended. Get ready, the first things these families will cut are cell phones and cable TV. Then the next wave brings some more cut backs. People are going to put off cars and homes, until they feel secure in their employment. It stands to reason that the UAW has caused this all and not the jackasses in those banks. Just stating the obvious, that your energy might be better spent on the mega trillion bail out of Wall Street. All I see here is class envy and an ill fated pathetic attempt to vent on the UAW as a scapegoat. We have seen the Wall Street folks reduced to drinking Folgers and Starbucks reserved for the real elitist. Most of those you thought were well off, were nothing but an illusion. Leasing cars and living on the margin, to appear affluent. Phoney people conned/duped the American public. Look at your 401K and tell me that the UAW took it too. Bush/Cheney will be right behind you in the unemployment line (wink) (wink).
Its the economy stupid. If it weren't McCain might be president on the 20th. The first step to recovery is admission. Only a seriously retarded person would heed advise from those who have raped them. The GOP wasn't and never ever be supported by the UAW and or organized labor. You have but days to vent, so enjoy. Save money! Live better!
WOW!!!!! Who'd have thought that CONGRESS would actually pander to the people who PUT THEM THERE as opposed to overpaid suits who lobby for special interests and other countries
On September 22, twenty-five congressional co-sponsors of the measure, including Mike Honda of California, the leading Japanese American in Congress, sent a letter to Hastert and Boehner asking them to bring the resolution to the floor before Congress adjourned for the November elections. But mysteriously, no word was heard from the G.O.P. leadership about when the resolution would be brought to a vote.
Exactly what happened next is not clear, but word on the Hill is that the Bush Administration, Michel, and other Japanese lobbyists went to work on Boehner—and on Hastert, who reportedly is hoping to be named ambassador to Japan after he retires and who made clear that he was unhappy with the resolution.
The measure could conceivably be revived during the upcoming lame-duck session, but for now it looks like Japan has again bought itself victory on the Hill.
I do not beleive that ANYONE here has suggested that the UAW caused the economic slowdown.... but the UAW absolutely contributed to the strangulation of the USAs automobile industry.
It is time to hold you head high, know that you had a pretty good run ... and let the weak companies fail with dignity. Eventually, stronger buisnesses will emerge from the ashes. Hopefully without the burdon of UNIONS dragging them down.
Maybe you could give us a slight hint. What do any of your posts have to do with the problems at the Big 3? Problems that most posters believe the UAW contracts have played some part in causing. Are you so blind that you believe that the UAW is guiltless in the demise of the domestic automakers?
I did not even know that the UAW hired Japanese sex slaves. Was this for a party at their Black Lake resort? Or was it a perk written into one of the 2200 pages of work rules? Or as management knows it, 2200 ways to get out of doing an honest days work?
yankabilly, try to think of things this way: 1) if the workers are really skilled enough, they wouldn't get laid off. If they're skilled enough, as soon as they get laid off they'll get another job easily. 2) If the workers are skilled and aren't overpaid, other companies will gladly take them. 3) If they're smart enough they would've boycott UAW rules that force them to join the union.
Fact is, most UAW workers are lazy and greedy, wanting the pay but not wanting to do the effort. I detest those kind of people, and they all can drop dead, unemployed for all I care.
I worked hard from the bottom and now enjoy the result, payment cuts? never gonna happen to me, not if the company wish to keep one of it's top employees :P . Compared to them yes I dare say I'm Superman :shades:
*This does NOT mean I blame UAW for our economy or for GM getting screwed. Both GM management and UAW share the guilt for GM's current state. It's not GM's fault the economy is messed, however it's also not the economy's fault Gm gets messed up.
Agreed. If you want the best truck buy a D3 vehicle. If you want the best car you need to buy a foreign nameplate.
Agreed, with slight change: if you want the best small truck buy a Frontier or Tacoma. As for larger trucks, anyone who thinks Nissan Titan is better than F150 or Silverado better get his/her brain checked.
Apperently you did not start from the very bottom. After serving in the army stayed here in KY and found a job in a non-union as a dich digger makeing $7.00 per hr went to school to become a welder and making $10.00 per hr. Worked in fab. shop doing many Govt. contracts. Were I should have been paid B-wage for working on Govt. jobs and they were also using me also a minority hire. Then when the Govt. jobs were done I was laid off. Was called back a week later was asked to take a $1 pay cut and to travel and I said yes. Went to job site was talking to head welder and he told me there are good welders around here but not for $9 per hr. the comany was trying to find out HOW LOW CAN I GO on there pay untill I have to pay them a good wage. It went on like this for two weeks then they paid them the wage that they were asking for $12 per hr I went and asked to be paid the same wage as them and they said no! and if I asked again I would be let go. With a child on way said just kept my mouth shut and went on. Then when that job was done was let go. Next Govt. job came was back in shop at $10 per hr. That's when my oppinions about unions changed. A wage is set and thats what every one is paid.
the comany was trying to find out HOW LOW CAN I GO on there pay untill I have to pay them a good wage. It went on like this for two weeks then they paid them the wage that they were asking for $12 per hr I went and asked to be paid the same wage as them and they said no!
This is how things work for most of us, why are you surprised. It's the reason you might shop at 1 grocery store over another, haggle over the price of a car or a house, or negotiate your pay.
I have no union, work with other engineers who make different amounts, but am content with what I make. How can that be - because the basis of getting paid what you're worth is the ability to say to your current employer - "I don't like my pay and I'm leaving for better pay at Company BCD". If you can't do that then you're either making the maximum you're worth, OR being paid too much, since you can't find other work paying the same.
Similarly what a house or car is worth = what someone is willing to pay for it at any given time.
So you don't want to be paid what you are actually worth at that moment - you want to be paid more, you want to be paid as much as people who others say are better welders than you. Obviously if these guys were willing to pay them $12/hr and threaten you being fired if ask again, they simply didn't think you were that good. They might have been wrong, but it's their prerogative to think that, as it's yours to think you are the best welder in the Solar System and "should" be paid $100/hr.
Your work is a merchandise that was simply worth less than you think it was - just the same as a used car dealer sets their asking price at $10K and agrees on $6K. As you don't want the government to make you pay 10 grand for that used car, somebody else should not be compelled (read coerced) to pay you $12/hr just because you say so. Ultimately, they offered you took it, end of story.
All most unions want is package mediocrity and coerce employers to pay for it as it were top notch performance with no option of actual verification (try to fire some union drunk who show up hour late and has to be cleaned after every single time). Pay this guy as he were master of universe just because I say so, or else. No, thanks.
It was an attempt to get socialized medicine. Envisioned by Harry Truman in 1945 and signed into law by LBJ in 1965. It ended up covering Social Security recipients. It is not free just less expensive than other insurance coverage. I pay $96 per month taken out of my SS. It is mandatory coverage. You also need supplemental coverage which can cost as little as $30 per month and go over several hundred. For those of you keeping count. Out of those 20 years that Congress fought against socialized medicine, the Republicans only controlled the House and the Senate two times. So the Democrats fought against universal health care as much as the Republicans. Same as in 1993-94 when Hillary tried getting it past a Democrat controlled Congress.
Here is the big question. Why, if Universal Health Care is SOOO important to the UAW, do they not want their retirees going on Medicare at age 65?
All most unions want is package mediocrity and sell it as a top notch performance with no option of actual verification. Pay this guy because I say so, or else. No, thanks.
What you have pointed out has killed most of the trade unions in CA. Non-Union contractors come in and underbid the Union contractor for two simple reasons. The Non-Union contractor can change the going rate of pay to match the market without opening a Union contract. They can also weed out the non producers and keep the best workers on payroll. My wife's steel company was Union until her step son took over the business in the early 1990s. That was a bad time for building and he found he had no flexibility to lay off the less productive workers. The bidding became so critical you could not compete as a Union contractor and survive. So he shut down and re-opened as non union. Most of the good workers came to work for him at the same pay & benefits as when they were Union. Just no work rules to deal with. That is what GM needs to do in a bankruptcy. Get rid of the UAW and its 2200 pages of repressive work rules.
If you can't do that then you're either making the maximum you're worth, OR being paid too much, since you can't find other work paying the same.
It is simple supply and demand. Rocky always pointed to my $38 per hour as a reason that a UAW worker should get $30 per hour. That IS pure idiocy. The reason I got what I did was a willingness to work away from home and family. I lived in a 10X12 room for half the year and ate in a cafeteria. It sounds like a great job. We had many people work in the Arctic one shift and not come back. They did not want to leave the wife and kids for 3-6 weeks at a time. If I had quit and gone to work in CA doing the same work, I would have been lucky to get $25 per hour with no pension. If a person thinks they are worth more than they are getting paid. Find someone that will pay that price and quit where you feel underpaid. That is the beauty of a system like ours. Unions can rob us of our individuality by bringing the good producers down to the level of the poor producers. That is where the UAW, AMA, NEA and many Civil Service Unions are right now.
yankabilly, try to think of things this way: 1) if the workers are really skilled enough, they wouldn't get laid off. If they're skilled enough, as soon as they get laid off they'll get another job easily. 2) If the workers are skilled and aren't overpaid, other companies will gladly take them. 3) If they're smart enough they would've boycott UAW rules that force them to join the union.
15 or so years ago, we were going through a consolidation in the defense industry. The VP of our division went to the IBEW and IUE asking for concessions to help manage costs. These were not wage or benefit reductions, but rather he just wanted a relaxation of the work rules so workers could be more easily moved around to meet the demands of the program.
Well, the unions (a lot like the UAW, it seems), balked at this, so the VP played hardball. He just told 'em if he didn't have the flexibility in the unionized workforce he needed here, he would just move the work elsewhere where the unions did not exist. Since we already had mfg plants in Texas and Puerto Rico, they knew he was not bluffing. He got what he wanted, and the result is that the jobs stayed in the area.
On another note, this same VP noted that he never noticed the workers on the floor or the maintenance staff (unionized) leaving for greener pastures. He concluded that things for them must be pretty comfy (wages and bennies above the industry norm) for them to stay. On the other hand, professionals (engineers) were leaving all the time for better paying positions, so the company put more money into the raise pool for the professionals to keep they around. This was a good example of items 1 and 2 in your post.
That is where the UAW, AMA, NEA and many Civil Service Unions are right now.
I have a close friend that is a teacher and is in their union. I learned long ago not to talk to her about unions and someone who has tenure. She's very good at what she does, has won numerous teaching awards, and makes less than some tenured teachers who keep a bottle in their top desk drawer.
That is what the unions have done to her school district.
They are on Medicare at age 65. Is somebody saying different?
Was that part of the 2007 contract concessions? What was all the flap about viagra and retirees? Is it the supplemental that is costing GM a bundle? Or do the retirees pay their own supplemental, as most of US retirees? Something is costing GM $1500 per car related to the retirees health care. Or Wagoner and Gettlefinger are not being honest.
I'd never claim myself to have started from the very bottom. You're missing the real point. The point is, putting enough effort (read: work hard) and keep improving yourself (brains, skills, etc) makes you a valuable asset, which means the upper guys will want to keep you as long as they can. If you put mediocre to so-so effort and wish to get better pay, just drop dead.
What's real sad is many Americans think they deserve more than what they get. UAW is a great example for this, not all of them of course, but many of them keep putting mediocre effort while thinking they deserve more and more pay. This type of people will fail, they always do, because the world isn't nice and only those who work hard can survive, period.
This is why UAW and many other unions fail, they get too lazy and greedy to the point their lifestyles make no sense anymore.
That is what the unions have done to her school district.
My ex wife that is a very good teacher felt the same way about the NEA. She finally left the public school system and took a huge cut in pay to teach in a private Christian school. Better discipline and parental involvement.
I do understand the dilemma that a long time teacher faces in many parts of the country. The parents do not teach their children any respect for authority and it shows in the children from Kindergarten on. My sister in law went back to teaching when her son headed to college. She is going to retire early after this school year. She is tired of K-3rd grade kids kicking, spitting and punching her with no recourse allowed. The principle's hands are tied and parents do nothing. I'd knock the little suckers across the room and end up in jail. I could not be a teacher in our public school system today.
Oh, and the NEA does nothing to protect teachers that try to discipline rowdy children. Not sure what they are good for except as a huge political lobby group. I doubt the leadership in the NEA is any better than the UAW. Just smarter.
Personally I find union workers a bunch of spoiled lazy bums. I won't expect medicare and whatever else from the employer. I'd work even harder, expect bigger pay for my effort, and make sure I have enough to take care of myself until I die without having to rely on, beg, or demand from my employers.
That's the kind of mindset you need to have to succeed.
As of 2009 all salaried retirees over 64 are on medicare and they are responsible for the additional premiums to improve it to whatever they improve it to. Not sure what that is or how much it cost. Does anyone know what they pay over medicare and what it gets you?
For the Hourly GM pays what ever it cost to get the insurance over medicare. As of a couple years ago it was no copays or any cost at all to the retiree. Now the extra insurance requires some copay and max cost. To me it is pretty minimal so the insurance must be pretty high. And GM pays the whole bill for those who retired and are under 65. (remember the UAW has 30 and out and many took it with the buy outs).
In an effort to reduce costs by $1 billion per year, GM and the United Auto Workers (UAW) agreed that retired hourly workers would start paying monthly contributions, deductibles and copayments for medical services up to $370 per year for individuals and $752 for families.
It's a no-brainer move. Eliminate UAW and pay fair wages that reflect the market to the best workers so the cars they build are the highest quality in the world..
That's interesting - my sister in law went from a year at a private Christian school to the public schools and has been there for some 30 years now. Same hassles for lots more money basically.
A friend of mine just became a Teamster in another school district, doing support work. He notices a definite lackadaisical attitude where he is. He's got better health insurance but he's paying more in union dues that he was paying for health insurance at his last job. He's not impressed.
For the Hourly GM pays what ever it cost to get the insurance over medicare.
I know I pay $30 per month supplemental insurance with Kaiser. Not sure what my copay is. I think generic drugs are $5- $10. I have not used the services thankfully. I do know friends that have Blue Shield of CA pay $175 each for supplemental. So it varies depending on the coverage.
(UAW) agreed that retired hourly workers would start paying monthly contributions, deductibles and copayments for medical services up to $370 per year for individuals and $752 for families.
If I had stayed on COBRA with the Teamsters it was around $950 per month. Our copay was 30% with 70% covered up to $1000 per year. Not great coverage so when my bank ran out I went to Kaiser. I paid $273 per month and paid all cost up to $4000 then I was covered. That was the cheapest per month coverage to cover me in case of catastrophic illness. I had one eye exam that cost me $90. I should get a physical as it has been a couple years so I will know what that cost. While under the Teamster plan a physical cost me $30 for the office visit and over $300 for my part of all the blood tests they do. I thought that was a big rip-off. Probably sold my blood after they tested it :sick:
I also started at the bottom. I was in the mail room at Pacific Telephone starting in 1961. $62.50 per week. By 1963 I had worked into a technician job with lots of schools. The better the score the better chance of getting more schools. I worked with a guy that had never gone past the first school. He was near retirement and had run frame jumpers for 30 some odd years. I did not know there was a Union for over a year. Then the CWA guy asked if I wanted to join. I hesitated as I did not see the advantage to belonging. When they came to my rescue from an incompetent supervisor I realized they were there for a purpose and became a member. As you can see from this 1965 pay stub, we paid health care of about 7.5% of our gross pay. I also opted for them to take out 12% of my gross pay for the AT&T stock offering. That left my wife and I $63.50 per week to live on. I was putting her through college at the time.
My question? What did a UAW UNSKILLED autoworker make in 1965 with 4 years service? Oh and I had just bought a brand new Toyota Landcruiser in 1964. I wanted a Datsun Patrol or a Jeep. Both were more than the Toyota.
when unions start thinking that the benefits they receive is a privilege, and not a birth right.
Ah, yes, but when will that happen? Or to be exact, will it ever happen?
Survival of the Fittest is rule Number ONE...
Unions, after so many years of pampering seem to conveniently forget this basic rule of life :P When will these people learn that there is no shortcut in life?
So, will autoworkers in foreign brand car plants in US select UAW for representation when card check is implemented by Congress and Obama? Or, will they instead select Teamsters or some other?
She is tired of K-3rd grade kids kicking, spitting and punching her with no recourse allowed. The principle's hands are tied and parents do nothing. I'd knock the little suckers across the room and end up in jail. I could not be a teacher in our public school system today.
When I entered grade school in the mid-60's we were afraid to poke fun at our teachers. And this is what we've come to? I think that insecurity is driving kids that won't shut up and let teachers teach.
I think the UAW is insecure, too, enough so that they don't mind helping to bankrupt the Company that employs them. Really, that is an example of a huge consolidization that is out of control and one that has passed by their usefulness to theirselves, their Company and to society in general.
It starts with moronic kids like in the quote above. :sick:
Wasn't that the Cutlass Supreme??? The Cutlass Ciera soldiered on until 1996, when it was replaced by the Cutlass that was on the same platform as the 1st gen Malibu, wasn't it???
Comments
When asked about the upcoming 'Volt" at the Detroit Auto Show, Rick Wagoner constantly emphasized that they (GM) need to bring the cost down in order to make this a viable car. Is that all he can think about? bringing costs down? Isn't that thinking what got him in this mess in the first place? I'd rather hire an illiterate bean counter for a piddly amount if this is what he believes that a CEO should be focusing on when developing a new car. Not that it is not important, but certainly he should not make it a public message.
That is exactly what happened to us in about 1985. The company asked us to open the contract for a wage reduction. It was that or they would have to lay off half the crew. We opened it up and took a $525 per week cut in pay. Five months later they laid off the bottom 4 employees. Cutting the crew in half. There were many Union contracts that got cut worse than ours. The IBEW took a $5 per hour cut in pay. They never did catch up to us. Our cut was hours on our shift. So when things picked up we were back on 10-12 hour days and making good money again. If there is no money something has to give.
Tell me about it.
They actually make bad parts so that they can be called back on OT to make good parts :sick:
Did the UAW decide to build the Ciera, and Century, virtually UNCHANGED, from 1982 to 1996 (that's 15, FIFTEEN model years)??? Ah.....nope.
Did the UAW dicide the Chevy Astro was OK as is for 20, that's TWENTY model years???? Again.....noooope.
Did the UAW decide to leave faulty designed rear calipers in the GM10 bodies for 5 years, leading to a class action suit??? Nope, nope, nope.
Did they strike the Fairfax, Ka. (Malibu) plant last year, YES, and shame on them. Shame on them for the 1998 strike as well as striking the Lambda plant last year too.
They do have their fair share of the blame, but I would HARDLY say that THEY (alone) are running the Big 3 into the ground, which is what you are insinuating.
I think one of the reasons that the [non-permissible content removed] 3 aren't as vocal about the bailout as their reps in the Senate are is they know that if you force concessions on the UAW, then the UAW built vehicles become more competitive price-wise. This may force them to try and cut costs (re: wages and bennies, and maybe even lesser quality materials) to maintain their edge, which could have a serious backlash.
Would you say that ABC, NBC, and CBS have lost market share because they aren't competitive??? I would say cable turned their industry upside down.
While I agree that the Big 3 have largely ignored their CARS (not trucks), the fact is that people have more choices today.
People tripped all over themselves in the mid '80's to get a Hyundai or a Yugo. Why??? They were CHEAP!!!! That is probably STILL the #1 reason they buy Hyundai's and Kia's today.
I think that one thing that the D3 as a whole and GM in particular don't get is that the competitions is on a 5 year cycle for cars while they are going for refreshes that are longer than that. That gave us a Cavalier that lasted through 4 different Civic and/or Corollas.
WOW!!!!! Who'd have thought that CONGRESS would actually pander to the people who PUT THEM THERE as opposed to overpaid suits who lobby for special interests and other countries.
Shame on them.
I forgot about that one. "G" bodies went 9 yrs ('78-'87). Lemko's Park Ave went from '86-'96.
That is all I was saying that they have to share in the blame. I have implicated management as much or more than the UAW in the demise of the domestic auto industry.
Did the UAW decide to build the Ciera, and Century, virtually UNCHANGED, from 1982 to 1996
I don't know. Did the work rules make it too expensive to upgrade the process for newer better designed models? With 2200 pages of what the workers will and will not do, does present a lot of issues to making changes.
Now that GM is trying to get enough money to pay for parts already delivered and health care for retirees, the UAW is attempting to block the bailout with their "no more concessions" protests. I believe the tax payers in this country are not very sympathetic to the UAW cause. From where I sit the UAW would rather take down GM than give up any of their wages or benefits. They keep saying they gave up all they are going to. Well it does not look like the rank and file have given up much of anything. Giving up wages benefits for new hires is pathetic and selfish if you ask me. The few and the proud that are left have given up nothing. The 65,000 UAW workers that are left are willing to take down the whole industry to maintain their lifestyle. You know the 3 million workers the UAW claims will lose their jobs. I got to tell you most of those jobs are going away no matter what the UAW does. I imagine as many as a third are already part of the recession statistics. If the UAW keeps GM from getting the money they will go down in flames with the rest of the domestic workforce. And then my insinuation will be true.
PS
My original post was to DD who continually avoids the UAW issue by throwing in totally irrelevant information.
They also bailed out the banks that give them huge donations. They have not bailed out the working class people that have lost their homes. That is because they are not represented by a Union that get special treatment from the Democrats in Congress. If you feel that catering to special interests is the way our government should be run. Then you should be happy about the bailout for the UAW. The little guy that is not rich enough alone or collectively is left out in the cold by our current Congress.
I watch primarily cable Fox, TLC, History, CNBC, etc.
There is a difficulty involved for the T3 networks to change themselves and still maintain advertisers which parallels the B3's problems in revamping themselves and adjusting to compete in a new world. Similarly the cable-based companies have fewer controls on what they can and can't do as did the foreign brands coming in with no legacy retired labor force. A very interesting parallel you've brought up. Thanks.
>They were CHEAP!!!!
I believe another factor in the popularity of small, small cars in the 70s and 80s was that they were economical on gas. The term was (is) econoboxes for the little ones.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I need help on this one: were the changes in the Civic/Corolla primarily sheet metal or were the underpinnings modified in those changes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But, just like the possibility if the D3 don't live up to congress demands the loans can be called in, there lies the possibility that Congress can call in the banks TARP loans if they don't start loaning the money.
AT least GMAC took their $6 bil and started giving it to customers.
The Cutlass/Regal/Grand Prix came out in 88 on the new GM10 chassis. The old A cars were kept for rentals and low priced mid cars.
The fools here are hell bound on blaming this nations ills on the UAW. Its a fools errand at best and nothing but a silly argument as we see the imports/transplants suffering. In round one we saw all the asinine loans made that resulted in foreclosures, gee those folks were brilliant. Then we see plant closings which will also result in more foreclosures to those who were worthy of loans, thats going to make things better. Over 70,000 businesses will close this year. Just how many jobs have to be lost before we see this as a national thing? Each stimulus check given has done more to stimulate the economy in China than ours as was intended. Get ready, the first things these families will cut are cell phones and cable TV. Then the next wave brings some more cut backs. People are going to put off cars and homes, until they feel secure in their employment. It stands to reason that the UAW has caused this all and not the jackasses in those banks. Just stating the obvious, that your energy might be better spent on the mega trillion bail out of Wall Street. All I see here is class envy and an ill fated pathetic attempt to vent on the UAW as a scapegoat. We have seen the Wall Street folks reduced to drinking Folgers and Starbucks reserved for the real elitist. Most of those you thought were well off, were nothing but an illusion. Leasing cars and living on the margin, to appear affluent. Phoney people conned/duped the American public. Look at your 401K and tell me that the UAW took it too. Bush/Cheney will be right behind you in the unemployment line (wink) (wink).
Its the economy stupid. If it weren't McCain might be president on the 20th. The first step to recovery is admission. Only a seriously retarded person would heed advise from those who have raped them. The GOP wasn't and never ever be supported by the UAW and or organized labor. You have but days to vent, so enjoy. Save money! Live better!
On September 22, twenty-five congressional co-sponsors of the measure, including Mike Honda of California, the leading Japanese American in Congress, sent a letter to Hastert and Boehner asking them to bring the resolution to the floor before Congress adjourned for the November elections. But mysteriously, no word was heard from the G.O.P. leadership about when the resolution would be brought to a vote.
Exactly what happened next is not clear, but word on the Hill is that the Bush Administration, Michel, and other Japanese lobbyists went to work on Boehner—and on Hastert, who reportedly is hoping to be named ambassador to Japan after he retires and who made clear that he was unhappy with the resolution.
The measure could conceivably be revived during the upcoming lame-duck session, but for now it looks like Japan has again bought itself victory on the Hill.
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2006/10/sb-cold-comfort-women-1160006345
http://books.google.com/books?id=YC2sViQysogC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=at+one+time+th- e+japanese+lobby+was+the+biggest&source=web&ots=ZBbDMHaExO&sig=dLYIvF9tAyqKmxbEl- OfuefEuNvk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
It is time to hold you head high, know that you had a pretty good run ... and let the weak companies fail with dignity. Eventually, stronger buisnesses will emerge from the ashes. Hopefully without the burdon of UNIONS dragging them down.
Unions have outlived their usefulness!
I did not even know that the UAW hired Japanese sex slaves. Was this for a party at their Black Lake resort? Or was it a perk written into one of the 2200 pages of work rules? Or as management knows it, 2200 ways to get out of doing an honest days work?
Absolutely. There are more choices and the major networks have not kept up.
While I agree that the Big 3 have largely ignored their CARS (not trucks), the fact is that people have more choices today.
Agreed. If you want the best truck buy a D3 vehicle. If you want the best car you need to buy a foreign nameplate.
1) if the workers are really skilled enough, they wouldn't get laid off. If they're skilled enough, as soon as they get laid off they'll get another job easily.
2) If the workers are skilled and aren't overpaid, other companies will gladly take them.
3) If they're smart enough they would've boycott UAW rules that force them to join the union.
Fact is, most UAW workers are lazy and greedy, wanting the pay but not wanting to do the effort. I detest those kind of people, and they all can drop dead, unemployed for all I care.
I worked hard from the bottom and now enjoy the result, payment cuts? never gonna happen to me, not if the company wish to keep one of it's top employees :P . Compared to them yes I dare say I'm Superman :shades:
*This does NOT mean I blame UAW for our economy or for GM getting screwed. Both GM management and UAW share the guilt for GM's current state. It's not GM's fault the economy is messed, however it's also not the economy's fault Gm gets messed up.
Agreed, with slight change: if you want the best small truck buy a Frontier or Tacoma. As for larger trucks, anyone who thinks Nissan Titan is better than F150 or Silverado better get his/her brain checked.
This is how things work for most of us, why are you surprised. It's the reason you might shop at 1 grocery store over another, haggle over the price of a car or a house, or negotiate your pay.
I have no union, work with other engineers who make different amounts, but am content with what I make. How can that be - because the basis of getting paid what you're worth is the ability to say to your current employer - "I don't like my pay and I'm leaving for better pay at Company BCD". If you can't do that then you're either making the maximum you're worth, OR being paid too much, since you can't find other work paying the same.
Similarly what a house or car is worth = what someone is willing to pay for it at any given time.
Your work is a merchandise that was simply worth less than you think it was - just the same as a used car dealer sets their asking price at $10K and agrees on $6K. As you don't want the government to make you pay 10 grand for that used car, somebody else should not be compelled (read coerced) to pay you $12/hr just because you say so. Ultimately, they offered you took it, end of story.
All most unions want is package mediocrity and coerce employers to pay for it as it were top notch performance with no option of actual verification (try to fire some union drunk who show up hour late and has to be cleaned after every single time). Pay this guy as he were master of universe just because I say so, or else. No, thanks.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It was an attempt to get socialized medicine. Envisioned by Harry Truman in 1945 and signed into law by LBJ in 1965. It ended up covering Social Security recipients. It is not free just less expensive than other insurance coverage. I pay $96 per month taken out of my SS. It is mandatory coverage. You also need supplemental coverage which can cost as little as $30 per month and go over several hundred. For those of you keeping count. Out of those 20 years that Congress fought against socialized medicine, the Republicans only controlled the House and the Senate two times. So the Democrats fought against universal health care as much as the Republicans. Same as in 1993-94 when Hillary tried getting it past a Democrat controlled Congress.
Here is the big question. Why, if Universal Health Care is SOOO important to the UAW, do they not want their retirees going on Medicare at age 65?
What you have pointed out has killed most of the trade unions in CA. Non-Union contractors come in and underbid the Union contractor for two simple reasons. The Non-Union contractor can change the going rate of pay to match the market without opening a Union contract. They can also weed out the non producers and keep the best workers on payroll. My wife's steel company was Union until her step son took over the business in the early 1990s. That was a bad time for building and he found he had no flexibility to lay off the less productive workers. The bidding became so critical you could not compete as a Union contractor and survive. So he shut down and re-opened as non union. Most of the good workers came to work for him at the same pay & benefits as when they were Union. Just no work rules to deal with. That is what GM needs to do in a bankruptcy. Get rid of the UAW and its 2200 pages of repressive work rules.
It is simple supply and demand. Rocky always pointed to my $38 per hour as a reason that a UAW worker should get $30 per hour. That IS pure idiocy. The reason I got what I did was a willingness to work away from home and family. I lived in a 10X12 room for half the year and ate in a cafeteria. It sounds like a great job. We had many people work in the Arctic one shift and not come back. They did not want to leave the wife and kids for 3-6 weeks at a time. If I had quit and gone to work in CA doing the same work, I would have been lucky to get $25 per hour with no pension. If a person thinks they are worth more than they are getting paid. Find someone that will pay that price and quit where you feel underpaid. That is the beauty of a system like ours. Unions can rob us of our individuality by bringing the good producers down to the level of the poor producers. That is where the UAW, AMA, NEA and many Civil Service Unions are right now.
1) if the workers are really skilled enough, they wouldn't get laid off. If they're skilled enough, as soon as they get laid off they'll get another job easily.
2) If the workers are skilled and aren't overpaid, other companies will gladly take them.
3) If they're smart enough they would've boycott UAW rules that force them to join the union.
15 or so years ago, we were going through a consolidation in the defense industry. The VP of our division went to the IBEW and IUE asking for concessions to help manage costs. These were not wage or benefit reductions, but rather he just wanted a relaxation of the work rules so workers could be more easily moved around to meet the demands of the program.
Well, the unions (a lot like the UAW, it seems), balked at this, so the VP played hardball. He just told 'em if he didn't have the flexibility in the unionized workforce he needed here, he would just move the work elsewhere where the unions did not exist. Since we already had mfg plants in Texas and Puerto Rico, they knew he was not bluffing. He got what he wanted, and the result is that the jobs stayed in the area.
On another note, this same VP noted that he never noticed the workers on the floor or the maintenance staff (unionized) leaving for greener pastures. He concluded that things for them must be pretty comfy (wages and bennies above the industry norm) for them to stay. On the other hand, professionals (engineers) were leaving all the time for better paying positions, so the company put more money into the raise pool for the professionals to keep they around. This was a good example of items 1 and 2 in your post.
I have a close friend that is a teacher and is in their union. I learned long ago not to talk to her about unions and someone who has tenure. She's very good at what she does, has won numerous teaching awards, and makes less than some tenured teachers who keep a bottle in their top desk drawer.
That is what the unions have done to her school district.
Here is the big question. Why, if Universal Health Care is SOOO important to the UAW, do they not want their retirees going on Medicare at age 65?
I do not understand. They are on Medicare at age 65. Is somebody saying different?
Was that part of the 2007 contract concessions? What was all the flap about viagra and retirees? Is it the supplemental that is costing GM a bundle? Or do the retirees pay their own supplemental, as most of US retirees? Something is costing GM $1500 per car related to the retirees health care. Or Wagoner and Gettlefinger are not being honest.
You're missing the real point. The point is, putting enough effort (read: work hard) and keep improving yourself (brains, skills, etc) makes you a valuable asset, which means the upper guys will want to keep you as long as they can. If you put mediocre to so-so effort and wish to get better pay, just drop dead.
What's real sad is many Americans think they deserve more than what they get. UAW is a great example for this, not all of them of course, but many of them keep putting mediocre effort while thinking they deserve more and more pay. This type of people will fail, they always do, because the world isn't nice and only those who work hard can survive, period.
This is why UAW and many other unions fail, they get too lazy and greedy to the point their lifestyles make no sense anymore.
My ex wife that is a very good teacher felt the same way about the NEA. She finally left the public school system and took a huge cut in pay to teach in a private Christian school. Better discipline and parental involvement.
I do understand the dilemma that a long time teacher faces in many parts of the country. The parents do not teach their children any respect for authority and it shows in the children from Kindergarten on. My sister in law went back to teaching when her son headed to college. She is going to retire early after this school year. She is tired of K-3rd grade kids kicking, spitting and punching her with no recourse allowed. The principle's hands are tied and parents do nothing. I'd knock the little suckers across the room and end up in jail. I could not be a teacher in our public school system today.
Oh, and the NEA does nothing to protect teachers that try to discipline rowdy children. Not sure what they are good for except as a huge political lobby group. I doubt the leadership in the NEA is any better than the UAW. Just smarter.
That's the kind of mindset you need to have to succeed.
For the Hourly GM pays what ever it cost to get the insurance over medicare. As of a couple years ago it was no copays or any cost at all to the retiree. Now the extra insurance requires some copay and max cost. To me it is pretty minimal so the insurance must be pretty high. And GM pays the whole bill for those who retired and are under 65. (remember the UAW has 30 and out and many took it with the buy outs).
In an effort to reduce costs by $1 billion per year, GM and the United Auto Workers (UAW) agreed that retired hourly workers would start paying monthly contributions, deductibles and copayments for medical services up to $370 per year for individuals and $752 for families.
For some reason the UAW and many other Unions believe they can change the basic rules of nature. Survival of the Fittest is rule Number ONE...
Regards,
OW
A friend of mine just became a Teamster in another school district, doing support work. He notices a definite lackadaisical attitude where he is. He's got better health insurance but he's paying more in union dues that he was paying for health insurance at his last job. He's not impressed.
Back in the good old days, UAW strike in '36-'37 changed workers' lives across USA (USA Today)
Then I moved up in value to the industry.
Regards,
OW
I know I pay $30 per month supplemental insurance with Kaiser. Not sure what my copay is. I think generic drugs are $5- $10. I have not used the services thankfully. I do know friends that have Blue Shield of CA pay $175 each for supplemental. So it varies depending on the coverage.
(UAW) agreed that retired hourly workers would start paying monthly contributions, deductibles and copayments for medical services up to $370 per year for individuals and $752 for families.
If I had stayed on COBRA with the Teamsters it was around $950 per month. Our copay was 30% with 70% covered up to $1000 per year. Not great coverage so when my bank ran out I went to Kaiser. I paid $273 per month and paid all cost up to $4000 then I was covered. That was the cheapest per month coverage to cover me in case of catastrophic illness. I had one eye exam that cost me $90. I should get a physical as it has been a couple years so I will know what that cost. While under the Teamster plan a physical cost me $30 for the office visit and over $300 for my part of all the blood tests they do. I thought that was a big rip-off. Probably sold my blood after they tested it :sick:
I also started at the bottom. I was in the mail room at Pacific Telephone starting in 1961. $62.50 per week. By 1963 I had worked into a technician job with lots of schools. The better the score the better chance of getting more schools. I worked with a guy that had never gone past the first school. He was near retirement and had run frame jumpers for 30 some odd years. I did not know there was a Union for over a year. Then the CWA guy asked if I wanted to join. I hesitated as I did not see the advantage to belonging. When they came to my rescue from an incompetent supervisor I realized they were there for a purpose and became a member. As you can see from this 1965 pay stub, we paid health care of about 7.5% of our gross pay. I also opted for them to take out 12% of my gross pay for the AT&T stock offering. That left my wife and I $63.50 per week to live on. I was putting her through college at the time.
My question? What did a UAW UNSKILLED autoworker make in 1965 with 4 years service? Oh and I had just bought a brand new Toyota Landcruiser in 1964. I wanted a Datsun Patrol or a Jeep. Both were more than the Toyota.
Ah, yes, but when will that happen? Or to be exact, will it ever happen?
Survival of the Fittest is rule Number ONE...
Unions, after so many years of pampering seem to conveniently forget this basic rule of life :P When will these people learn that there is no shortcut in life?
When I entered grade school in the mid-60's we were afraid to poke fun at our teachers. And this is what we've come to? I think that insecurity is driving kids that won't shut up and let teachers teach.
I think the UAW is insecure, too, enough so that they don't mind helping to bankrupt the Company that employs them. Really, that is an example of a huge consolidization that is out of control and one that has passed by their usefulness to theirselves, their Company and to society in general.
It starts with moronic kids like in the quote above. :sick:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick