Those that blame loss of jobs on NAFTA are not students of History. GM has been building cars and trucks in Mexico and South America for over 80 years.Way before the UAW was even founded. GM was building cars in Argentina as early as 1925.
So are you saying NAFTA, has nothing to do with the job losses in manufacturing??? What economist are you listening too or is that the latest from Rush??? :P
I understand GM, has been building cars in foreign lands for almost a century but that doesn't make it right. If they want us to buy their crap well they need to allow us to export our crap to their country and any trade barrier they place on our goods will be implemeted here on their goods. That would be fair trade. I'm not a strong believer in trade unless it's with a country that has a similar standard of living!!!
I was there only three years. You needed five to get vested. I pursued a different career track after I graduated from college.
The Teamsters haven't struck this particular plant since the early 1970s. The company must be getting a fair shake because they are still there after 34 years. The only time I could've question their judgment was when they defended three employees should have definitely been fired:
There was this one guy who was kind of slow and maybe a bit unpopular. They duct-taped his hands and leg, put him in a box, banded it up, and put the box on a high rack with a forklift truck. After leaving him up there three hours, they brought the box down, released him, but then grabbed him, hung him up on a crane's hook by his belt, and sprayed him with fire extinguishers.
I felt these guys should've been fired for egregious safety violations, the potential harm they could've done to this employee, misuse of company property, and goofing-off in general. They were about to be fired, but the union got them off with a three week suspension without pay.
Certainly you would have to agree that the UAW wages provide more purchasing power to the worker/consumer.
No doubt it's great for the worker and their ability to consume. But due to a variety of reasons ranging from management ineptitude, union inflexibility, to a consumer that doesn't want their product, the big 3 must cut costs where ever they can to survive. They need to get a lot smaller. The fact that my tax money is supporting a company that I wouldn't use my own money to buy a product from really bothers me.
If GM could afford the contracts then we wouldn't be having these discussions.
I felt these guys should've been fired for egregious safety violations, the potential harm they could've done to this employee, misuse of company property, and goofing-off in general. They were about to be fired, but the union got them off with a three week suspension without pay.
Absolutely they should have been fired. Without unemployment benefits too. That type of BS should not have been tolerated. What's really a bunch of BS, is if that poor guy would have been seriously injured or worse yet killed, the company would have been on the hook for a possible lawsuit, disability/workman's compensation expenses. I seriously doubt the union would pony up any funds to help the company pay for the damage caused by employees who should have been terminated immediately. These are the areas I have serious issues with unions.
...that people study about the late 19th/early 20th Century anthracite coal miners in NE Pennsylvania. We are about to revert back to that kind of lifestyle.
Hence Americans should exploit the child labor in these poor countries? Hard to believe that those nuns taught you that.
My god, Dallas. Now you really tick me off. CAN'T YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REALITY, IDEAS, AND SARCASM????????????? First Lemko, and now you. Man what is wrong with you guys....
To make this clear (in case my English really suck): 1) SARCASM: I said "My 12 y.o cousin can do the UAW jobs" Meaning: it really doesn't take much to be as "skilled" as UAW workers.
2) REALITY: I said: "As long as there are poor countries in the world there will always be cheap labor everywhere. " Read carefully: DO YOU SEE THE WORD CHILD LABOR ANYWHERE ON THAT SENTENCE?????
3) IDEAS: I didn't say anything, though I sure as hell will NEVER suggest anyone to resort to underage and underpaid labors.
Another thing, UAW workers are dead-on overpaid. Teachers, homemakers, architects, engineers, now they're underpaid.
Btw, as some of you seem to detest socialism and communism, from what I see that's exactly what the UAW is trying to do. They seem to balk at anyone making more money or getting more benefits and demand that they get the same. When will this end? By the time noone else gets paid more than UAW imo.
UAW is the perfect picture of impossible American dream: to have lots of money with the least effort. Bah!
Those who put no effort deserve to gain none. If the UAW sets the bar for the term "working hard" then the hard workers I know must have worked like slaves.
PS: quoting the bible is inappropritate imo, as using religion to support your post may cause more confrontation than it should. Referring to the 3rd world countries as toilets is another one. Try not to unnecessarily breach sensitive issues, please.
"...And even those great successes could be at least a little bit disputed. Concepts like adequate rest, work safety, pay reflecting qualifications, were bound to happen regardless of unions. Perhaps unions helped them materialize faster..."
I guess, by this reasoning Lincoln just happened to be in the right place at the right time, because slavery was bound to end sometime.
"....I don't really blame unions for what they are - they really do what they think is their mission. It's more politician's fault that they exploit those instincts and set up a system that basically dooms any company that is unionized, especially in the North."
So, rather than play by the rules, companies went South where rules are more hostile towards unions, and wages are lower. Then, when that wasn't good enough, they left the South for another country.
But, did the cost of your clothes, or sneakers go down???? No. Did their profits go up??? Yup.
If so, shouldn't every working person in the United States have that same privileged? Doesn't it seem reasonable that the burger flipper...
I worked at McDonald's while in college. I was a *SKILLED* burger flipper - I also worked the cash windows, drive through, cooked meat, toasted buns, made filet-of-fishes, fries - you name it, I did everything you could do in that store. I suspect that what I did took more skill than a single UAW job, say installing seats. I had a lot of variety and had to use my judgement on many tasks. I figure I should have been earning at least UAW salary and benefits. It's awful how MickyD has been taking advantage of skilled workers. They need a union and our burgers might end up at $10.
".....In Japan, when a production plant need the workers " to do overtime this week to fix quality problems", the workers would just say "lets do it for our company" with no complaints, even the higher ups stayed. They even stayed overtime to practice and improve their skills. Then when said workers retired, they get all sorts of benefits including lifetime healthcare. They demand nothing, but get everything they deserve."
Do, you honestly think that ANYBODY......whether it be Rockerfeller or Vanderbilt, or Jobs or Gates would do this out of the goodness of their hearts??? They'd give them what they deserve alright...... NOTHING.....because that's exactly what a retiree would give them after years of dedicated service like that.
".....Dallas, given the right tools my 12 y.o cousin can do what UAW workers do. "just place the metal plate on the press machine and you're good"
Sounds to me like you'd be FOOLISH enough to let him, too. There are laws that prohibit young children from running machinery like that, for good reason.
People like you have a lot of GALL, UNMITIGATED GALL, to poke fun at someone's job, and the pay they recieve, when you've never done it yourself.
I suppose it's OK for a NON-UAW employee to put lug nuts on a car for $28/hr like they do in Toyotaland????
I suspect that what I did took more skill than a single UAW job, say installing seats. I had a lot of variety and had to use my judgement on many tasks. I figure I should have been earning at least UAW salary and benefits.
So, rather than play by the rules, companies went South where rules are more hostile towards unions, and wages are lower. Then, when that wasn't good enough, they left the South for another country.
Seems to me the companies came IN to the south and built there (Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, BMW, etc.). The Northern companies went OUT from the north to Mexico, Canada, etc (Ford, GM, etc).
Sarcasm often doesn't translate well to the printed word, even with the use of Emotorcons or the /sarcasm hint. So don't get too upset if someone skims your posts too fast - we're just gabbing among friends after all.
They'd give them what they deserve alright...... NOTHING.....because that's exactly what a retiree would give them after years of dedicated service like that.
Cooter, tell that to the UAW. Btw, in case you missed the point, I used that example to point out the different mentality between Japanese and American workers that allowed the company to catch up with Americans, and the companies being grateful enough to give back for those dedication. American workers didnt do that, thus deserve nothing.
There are laws that prohibit young children from running machinery like that, for good reason.
Cooter, you, Dallasdude, and Lemko need to read my post #7669. Come on, it's only a few posts before yours and you seem to conveniently miss it. :P
to poke fun at someone's job, and the pay they recieve, when you've never done it yourself.
Why should I? I visited Fairfax, looked at the way they build those Malibus for hours. I didn't think I'd be able to do it, I KNEW I could do it. Besides, why do I have to? I worked hard (try 12hrs a day, 6 days a week), studied hard (double major in 4 years) all for the sake of getting a good job and a good life. What about them? Do you really think their efforts should worth like $50/hr? That's what architects get and their jobs require much much more education and responsibility.
Btw, you seem to narrowly assume I never did any grunt work. Well, guess what, I spent 2 summer breaks working at a wood cutting factory back in college.
Ah, of course not, Steve. However from the nature of their posts it's obvious that some totally missed the point. I'm just trying to set things straight before it becomes a real misunderstanding.
"Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades"
I felt these guys should've been fired for egregious safety violations
That has been a pet peeve of mine. Wasting Union time and energy protecting workers that clearly do not deserve a good paying Union job. That was one thing I liked about working in the Oilfield. You step out of line and you were on the next plane. No Union on earth has enough resources to fight an Exxon or BP for one employee that deserves to be fired. Of course the oil companies paid well enough that there was little chance of any Union working their way in. The Technicians working for BP made about $35k more per year than I did. Anyone with half a brain is not going to step out of line and lose a job that pays $150k per year working only 26 weeks. Our Union pension was only slightly better than the oil companies. Yes the oil companies still have pension plans. Just flash a Union card around an oil facility and you won't have to worry about management. The trades people will toss you out onto the frozen tundra.
I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government. Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins. Bad news people - it's coming whether we like it or not. The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away." I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the final vote count was tallied..."we really might not do it in a year...or in four..." Where the Hell was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office.
Stop trying to put off the inevitable folks ... That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000... People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits... That job driving that forklift for the Big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year... We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe...
That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home... Let the market correct itself folks - it will. Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna' be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it all, is a nation that appreciates what it has...and doesn't live beyond its means...and gets back to basics...and redevelops the patriotic work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world...and probably turns back to God.
You're absolutely correct. Also study urban sweatshops during the same time period. This is the dream of the free marketeer/globalist posing under the guise of libertarian economics, the same people who have been quietly licking their chops since Kissinger and Nixon worked to open up China.
First of all, let me say that I was responding to the original post as I was reading it. I had 105 posts to read BEFORE I got to 7669. :sick:
"....... Why should I? I visited Fairfax, looked at the way they build those Malibus for hours. I didn't think I'd be able to do it, I KNEW I could do it. Besides, why do I have to? I worked hard (try 12hrs a day, 6 days a week), studied hard (double major in 4 years) all for the sake of getting a good job and a good life. What about them? Do you really think their efforts should worth like $50/hr? That's what architects get and their jobs require much much more education and responsibility."
I don't think watching them for a few hrs. does justice to actually working for them. I'm sure you could do my job, but to actually WORK for Verizon, and do the work is a horse of a different color.
I DO think their efforts should be worth $50/hr ( w/ bennies). I would expect an architect or accountant to make more ( my accountant charges $180 to do my taxes, an hours worth of work). Could their wages be depressed because there are more workers than actual jobs, as more people go to college???
I DO think their efforts should be worth $50/hr ( w/ bennies).
Why? Is it anymore strenuous than hanging sheet rock or pulling weeds? The only reason the D3 UAW workers are making those big bucks are contracts that were negotiated many times under duress. GM management has 6000 dealers they have contracts with to provide vehicles. The UAW knows that and strikes the plants that make the popular vehicles. I would say that is ok except when the company is on the verge of bankruptcy. Then the UAW is shooting themselves in the foot. Or more recent strikes I believe they shot themselves in the head. That would explain why UAW leaders are brain dead. The sooner GM files for C11 and the courts void all contracts the sooner they can get back on the road to profitability and pay US the money they now owe US.
my accountant charges $180 to do my taxes, an hours worth of work)
I know several accountants and none make anywhere near that amount per hour. I The average accountant makes nowhere near $100k/yr. Your accountant probably has several hours behind the scenes on catching up with tax code changes. If he/she charges flat rate for a 1040, one may take an hour and the next could take 3 for the the same $180.
The marina that works on my boat charges $75/hr, the mechanic is probably lucky to get 1/2 of that.
I "worked" for my father when I was 7 years old in his auto parts store and machine shop...he was really babysitting me to give my mother a break, hence the "quotes"...but I moved parts from one end of the store to be put on shelves...as I learned to read better I put the parts on the shelves, and started checking the deliveries off the invoices...then I was pulling parts orders for the countermen who took the orders from customers...at 15 I was placed in the machine shop, learning to cut drums and discs, overhaul starters and alternators, remove bearings from axles, work the lathe, perform valve jobs...at 18 I was moved to the counter, taking and pulling orders...my two younger brothers followed that same track behind me...while I no longer work in the auto trade, I did start to learn about business at a young age...while I was not worked to death, I simply cannot be against teaching something useful to a child, as I was starting to learn at age 7...
BTW...we were open a half day on Saturday (8-1) and a full day in the week (8-5:30)...I was paid $1.00 for a Saturday (between age 7-9) and, if school was closed, I got $2.00 for a full day...during Xmas, a full week and I was paid $10.00, plus the $1.00 for Saturday, for a grand total of $11.00...BIG BUCKS!!!!!...you want to know what WEALTHY is???...a nine year old with $11.00 in his pocket!!!!!
Further, I saw what the Teamsters and their strikes did to my father's little shop (sorry gagrice, other than that we are friends) and I learned my disdain for unions...later, working for Dad in the 70s, I saw the junk the Big 3 made, but did not understand the UAW...then, living in Detroit in the 80s, I got firsthand knowledge of the UAW attitude, and finally understood why the Big 3 made such outstanding JUNK for the last 10 years (the 70s) and why the union was worthless...once I bought my first Honda in 1985 it was an epiphany, and I knew WHY we made the junk, and I place it all at the feet of the UAW...management designs the ugly cars, but the UAW makes it into the junk it is...missing bolts, extra screws, windows missing parts, loose seats and squeaking dashboards are simply rotten manufacturing people who don't give a sh** about what they make...
The death of the UAW will be the rebirth of the Big 3...
Who are you guys kidding? The only architects who actually make $50+ per hour is if you either: A. Own your own firm or B. Are in a very high position in a well known firm. How do I know this - because I am an architect. I went to school and received both an Associates in Architectural Engineering and a Bachelor's of Architecture, and have worked in architecture for the past 12 years+. My latest firm did about 85% Federal Government projects and I started working for them because they paid the highest salary out of all the firms that I interviewed with...and at no point, did I pull in more than $36 per hour - and I was at the higher range for all of my college mates. UAW workers, from what I read, make much more than that and have WAAAY less formal education than me, less stress, and I'm sure they're not required to take 9 exams to get licensed including an Oral Exam (in California) in which you're grilled with about 1 - 3 hrs worth of questions by 3 licensed Architects...and on top of that Architects have to complete continuing education credits every year!
My thoughts on the UAW - get rid of them - they are what makes the Big 3 charge more for their crappy vehicles to pay the high salaries for UAW management. I'm not saying that the UAW workers are lazy and don't deserve their due salaries...but my thought is that with the Union, it tends to help UAW workers become lazy because they're not overly hungry for a paycheck - how are they held accountable for their crappy work? Most Americans want to buy American, for good reason, but unfortunately they tend to get crappy cars for the money they've paid. Get rid of the UAW and the Big 3 should be able to sell better cars at a lower price and still pay the "good, hard-working" laborers a decent salary.
HERE HERE!!!! I agree 100% with dallasdude1 in regards to UAW workers being overpaid! I fit into the architect category, am damn good at what I do, and still don't make even close to what UAW workers (who have less education and training than I have) make.
I don't think he expected to create an uproar; he just expected to resist the pressure of the peer group. Amazingly well-written for someone who doesn't know the difference between "speaking his peace" and "speaking his piece." His shop is about 20 minutes away.
I'd vote for him: "Most of the correspondence has been positive and many are even calling for Knox to run for office."
Instead of setting the bar for a "livable wage", the UAW has set artifically high wages which cannot be maintained in todays econemy.
What if Wall*Mart paid $50/hour to their people? Some would applaud that as being a GREAT way to go... but in reality, the prices of their products would have be so high to pay those wages that noone would shop there. At the end of the day, Wall*Mart would go out of buisness and EVERYONE that works there would lose their job.
This is the situation where the UAW has postured the American automakers.
In reality, the encoemy is a balancing-act between wages/cost-of-living. If either side of this gets out of balance, things go wrong. In the case of the UAW and the US automakers, the scale is overweighed on the side of salary and benifets thus making the products overpriced for the market.
The MARKET cannot be changed... but the salary/benifets can. To any reasonable person, the corrective action is obvious.
American engineers would not work 320 hours a month.
That is less than 75 hours a week. I know people that are salaried that work that much and more. They are commonly referred to as workaholics. Even in the 1960s the supervisors were expected to work a lot more than 40 hours per week. That made their hourly pay less than the people under them. The very reason I refused management positions. You want me to work 60 hours a week and wear a stinking suit for less than I am making now? Are you crazy? And of course they would give you the working your way up the ladder BS. Which I knew was not going to happen without a degree.
Why I find the current UAW wages out of line is thus. When I made about $10k per year in the late 1960s a dentist made about $60k per year. OK. he has a doctorate that took a minimum of 6 years if he was real bright. For the sake of argument we say that the UAW worker is skilled. His base yearly wage is $62k plus. That means for parity from the 1960s the dentist would be making $600k per year. Now I happen to be friends with my dentist and he made less last year than I made the last year working in the Arctic. Our friend Oscar the fork lift operator that was filing for bankruptcy when they cut his OT was making more than my dentist. My dentist has been in practice in the same building for 31 years. He is a year younger than me and cannot afford to retire until his son can take over the practice. So you want to talk about parity. I would say that most doctors that DD loves to disparage do not make enough for the $100s or $1000s that it costs them to get through Med school. And our friend the architect that makes less per hour than a UAW lug nut assembler. UAW WORKERS AT the D3 are overpaid. They have been for 30 or more years. I blame most of it on the greed at the top. They were not willing to stand up to the UAW thugs and now GM is ready for the trash heap of history.
Gary, awhile back you posted your Bell System paycheck. If you stayed, and retired today with your 48 years from Verizon (which is in parts of Cal.), you would have been making $1375 a week, would get about $3300/month for a pension, plus your BSSP/401k, and healthcare.
Now, are these payments in line with what prices are now, as opposed to 44 years ago when you were making $100/wk? I can't say.
What I think is most important is, is that their standard of living the same as it was in 1965? Is the plasterer's or landscaper's standard of living the same as it was in 1965? I think it should be.
BTW, if you made $10K a year in the late '60's and $62K today, your $60K dentist should be at $360,000, not $600K.
If you read my response to Gary, my point was that it is only fair to MAINTAIN a certain standard of living, no matter what your chosen profession.
So, do you think you make an equivalent salary, as compared to architects from 45 years ago??? If not, why??? As I posted in the post you are replying to, is it possible that there are more people vying for your job ( graduating from college as architects) than 45 years ago, thereby supressing wages???
"Bob, you gave up honest labor to become a lawyer and yet you complain about UAW workers?"
Yes, I found I could not afford to buy a car made by overpaid UAW workers...the "dollar per half day" would buy me two comic books (1 Superman and 1 Batman) and an ice cream cone...the "2 dollars per full day" was great, until I had to pay for gasoline (35 cents per gallon) and pay for the date (dinner and a movie, plus popcorn)...all this and I was just 9 years old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...maybe I should retroactively sue my father for running a sweatshop.........:):):):):)
So, yeah, I gave up honest work to become a liaroops, I mean, lawyer (I gotta pay attention to my spelling and pronunciation)...
Now, with Dad's shop closed, I gotta look for some real work so I can look myself in the face and try and earn my keep...
All I do now is file those silly papers in bankruptcy Court so people can give up their houses and go homeless or live with Mom and Dad...that is, THEIR Mom & Dad, not my Mom and Dad...
If you stayed, and retired today with your 48 years from Verizon
Darn good question that I have asked myself many times. Two fellow workers at Pacific Telephone were bought out early and just picked up odd telco jobs to supplement the small pension they got. I was ready to buy a house when RCA called and offered me the Alaska job in 1970. That $25k house today is worth minimum $600k. So that would have been a plus. As it is I did not get anything for my 9 years service at Pac Tel. It was 15 years vesting at the time. So my pension from the Teamsters is about 20% higher with NO health care. I do have a 401k also from my company that has lost about 40% the last year. It will likely go to my children. I do not see taking out more than is mandatory at age 70.
What I think is most important is, is that their standard of living the same as it was in 1965?
I can tell you my standard of living is higher now. I was living in a shack in 1970 for $60 per month rent. No AC and only a wood stove for heat. Very basic. I don't think that most of the gardeners living in the canyons around San Diego have a very high standard of living.
You are right about my calculations on the Dentist pay. I would imagine most are making similar to my dentist. They have not kept up with the UAW line worker. I can tell you that skilled people in So CA in general do not make what a UAW line worker makes. Journeyman carpenters are real lucky to get $20 per hour. Right now they are lucky to find any work. Very few make under $12 per hour. It seems that $100 per day is a common amount. It is mostly set by the 1000s of illegals hanging out at Home Depot each morning. When the Border Patrol drives up they scatter to the wind. I have never hired one. They must get work as most are gone by noon. When they all get legal status I would expect them to bring the price of labor down more, across a wider area of the USA. If GM survives they will have a whole big pool of willing workers to take the place of the UAW workers once the contracts are gone. Then we will see honest supply and demand working in the Auto Industry. Not the overinflated UAW wages currently being paid. That goes for Civil service workers that have had it made also. Many places are cutting wages and jobs on city, county and state level. CA needs to get rid of about 100k University staff. Problem is they get rid of the workers and keep the administration. So it is not just the UAW that will be suffering.
I have a question. How do you get paid by people that are broke and filing bankruptcy? I realize if you are UAW you have a legal trust that pays for your attorney fees. We had that in the Teamsters at one time. One of the many benefits we lost.
"......It seems that $100 per day is a common amount. It is mostly set by the 1000s of illegals hanging out at Home Depot each morning."
See, that doesn't help matters. They, much like what you say of the UAW employees, also manipulate the wages paid. Even if they do get legal status, none of them have any allegance to the USA, unlike immigrants who came before them. I would assume, living so close to home, that many of them would take advantage of their legal status and work here, but live there, where $100/day offers a better standard of living.
Is that fair to the $20/hr journeyman if someone who really doesn't belong here undercuts their wage??? I mean, is that any less insulting to those carpenters as UAW workers making their wage is insulting to the architect who makes the same, even though the architect is educated???
The long term affects of the UAW's way have changed the course of business for not only the auto workers but also the postal workers. Two of the largest unions in the states who promote...... (acutually self promote) dishonesty and theft are losing jobs. Finally the the sick leave and injury comp records for these two unions are being investigated by the IG. I now own a toyota and my wife owns a honda...but more importantly, our children are probably going to look at these models as well...the trend builds...
Fintail, it amazes me just how many folks are talking with paper you know what's on the economy. As you said the pseudo-capitalist/free-marketeer is the enemy of this country!!!
As you said the pseudo-capitalist/free-marketeer is the enemy of this country!!!
You and fintail know that is senseless garbage. Our own widespread technology is the cause. We have spread our opulence around the world via satellite TV. How do you expect someone that watches what is going on with our sports and Hollywood to react to America. They want what we have taken for granted. The UAW is a prime example of that mentality. GM and the UAW ASSUMED they would keep gaining market share. So they start this Ponzi scheme to pay the health care of the retirees on the backs of the current workers. What they did not expect is the stupid American buying public to actually abandon them just because they were offering crap for vehicles.
The guy living in a tar paper shack in Tijuana sees the wealth just across the border. If it was me I would sneak across to get in on the big bucks. Well now we have 30 million illegals all taking the jobs many Americans did not want. That meant those Americans are looking to make as much as they can. They see the UAW and supply of labor soon outweighs the demand. Add to that the lame leadership of the UAW that keep telling the less than bright line workers they can win this battle. Well Rocky they have lost. Face it, the UAW has driven most of the good paying jobs out of the country. And the workers that are left have chased off the customers with substandard workmanship. Less than 200k autoworkers in the UAW. Where once there was nearly a million and a half. You think the workers have gotten the picture? They have priced themselves out of a job. No line worker in the world is worth $73 per hour or even $50 without the retirees weighing them down. They can thank the UAW leadership for screwing up their lives.
If any of the D3 go bankrupt, here are the salaries for the auto assemblers you will need in the Detroit area to help you run the plant you could buy from the previous owners that overpaid their union staff....or you could invest in robots.
".....Well Rocky they have lost. Face it, the UAW has driven most of the good paying jobs out of the country."
How so??? If the transplants are paying close to (80-90%) what UAW workers make, and they are gaining market share, then the jobs are still here, just not union.
"..... Well now we have 30 million illegals all taking the jobs many Americans did not want. That meant those Americans are looking to make as much as they can."
First of all, I think there are a good number of Americans who would be willing to do the work, it's just that because they DON'T live in a tarpaper shack, they CAN'T do it for minimum wage.
Secondly, at least the UAW USES the law to their advantage to "artificially" drive up wages, while those employers BREAK the law by hiring illegals to "artificially" drive down wages. BIG difference.
Hey Hoopboy, I WILL have a beer, an AMERICAN beer, Sam Adams. Not that cheap German S%^T you drink.
How so??? If the transplants are paying close to (80-90%) what UAW workers make, and they are gaining market share, then the jobs are still here, just not union.
Several BIG differences. The Non union shops are not tied to a Ponzi scheme to pay for past sins as the D3 and the UAW have concocted. Everyone involved says that is about $1500 per car built. That can mean the difference between including leather, great audio and a NAV in the import vehicle. So a stripped Malibu costs GM as much to build as a loaded Camry. The imports do not put up with work rules that are disruptive to a smooth running operation.
they DON'T live in a tar paper shack, they CAN'T do it for minimum wage.
$15 per hour is not minimum wage or even close to minimum wage. That is 17% higher than the average starting salary for a school teacher with at least a bachelors degree. If the UAW was serious about keeping jobs in the USA they should have cut everyone back to $15 per hour and given GM a chance to survive. I just cannot believe the mentality that thinks an unskilled job on a manufacturing line is worth $50 per hour with benefits. Makes NO sense at all. Except for the guy raking in the big bucks with NO education. The UAW jobs do not offer any incentive for the workers to get an education to better themselves. They already have an entry level job that pays more than 90% of the college grad jobs in the country. When they get laid off it is much more devastating than the guy making minimum wage. Over a million UAW workers have lost their fat cat jobs over the last 30+ years. That should tell them something. They are NOT WORTH $30 per hour.
Secondly, at least the UAW USES the law to their advantage to "artificially" drive up wages, while those employers BREAK the law by hiring illegals to "artificially" drive down wages. BIG difference.
There you nailed it. The UAW wages are artificially high for the skills needed to do the job. It is no harder or more skill required, than the guy building me a cement block wall that is straight. And workers are stumbling over each other to get those jobs at $15 per hour.
Companies that knowingly hire illegals should be prosecuted. Though from what I understand the Feds are not very much help in determining if the illegal is using phony papers. When you send in taxes and SS payments to the Feds they should know if that is a phony SS ID number. There are many cases of them collecting for years to non existent SS numbers, and duplicate numbers.
First of all, I think there are a good number of Americans who would be willing to do the work, it's just that because they DON'T live in a tarpaper shack, they CAN'T do it for minimum wage.
I have thought some more about that statement. According to my calculations a person making $15 per hour should be able to qualify for a $150k mortgage payment. Even in over priced San Diego that will get you a dandy condo. I would imagine in Michigan you can buy a small palace for $150k right about now. I know a guy I work with has been trying to sell his Dad's place in Mayville Michigan for 3 years. Last I heard he was down to $110k. That is a 4 BR house on 5 acres. A new hire at GM under the UAW contract should be doing VERY WELL at $15 per hour. No tears should be shed if the old timers get cut back 50% on wages. They had a good run and it is OVER!
With income streaming in a torrent out of hard working laborers pockets into the coffers of the top 5% of income earners globally; why do some of our corrupt body-snatched government representatives begrudge U.S. union (UAW) autoworkers on the production lines of Ford, GM, or Chrysler their $54,000 (2007) for a 2000-hour work year? This yearly rate equates to approximately $27 per hour which was even less than the $30 per hour earned by production workers at Toyota in 2007 when you include the bonus paid by this foreign owned firm.
Essentially, it is maligned extreme capitalist propaganda that is at the heart of the misconception that foreign owned auto companies pay their production workers substantially less than workers employed by the U.S. auto companies. The only foreign automotive company that was paying significantly less by about $10 - $15 per hour was Hyundai located in Alabama in so desolate a place that only “Big Foot” lived their prior to them building their massive facility. Most other foreign auto manufacturers pay production wages close to parity with their U.S. automotive competitors.
One reason for production wages not differing significantly between foreign and U.S. auto companies is because the United Auto Workers (UAW) union has created an undeclared wage floor across the U.S. automotive industry simply by having members that have a voice – this has been described as the “union threat effect”. Unionized workers in the auto industry receive fair wages and fringe benefits because they can collectively negotiate with the U.S. carmakers; projecting one voice. Their strength is in their unity behind a common cause of receiving more than just a fair wage but also a certain modicum of job security and freedom from arbitrary corporate rules & edicts. All of these direct benefits fought for by UAW line workers in U.S. auto production facilities ‘spill over’ into the rest of the industry by creating a level of apprehension in foreign auto firms made palpable by the very real UAW organizing efforts at these foreign owned production facilities. These ongoing efforts by the UAW to organize the foreign automotive line workers is the only reason U.S. foreign autoworkers receive a wage that is comparable to their brothers at the Big 3. If the UAW was to vanish tomorrow (some lobbyist beholden Senator’s were hoping to achieve this), the foreign automotive manufactures would join their capitalist brethren in the constant income ‘milking’ of the wages of their workers in order to feed their insatiable greed addiction.
With no union (UAW) floor for automotive industry line worker wages the remaining foreign firms would be free to work their workers harder (increasing productivity) for less money. This is no different than what the average non-unionized worker across all industries has been experiencing from 2000 to 2007 - for their hard work putting in more hours and working more efficiently non-unionized workers have received a ‘just’ reward from their employers in the form of declining wages. The differential between what non-unionized workers would have received in wages given their breathtaking productivity increases (over this period) and the meager wage that they actually received was pilfered away by their employers to buy more houses, cars, planes, and worthless investment securities. In fact, the top 1% of households tripled their incomes by 228% while middle income workers only increased their household income by a paltry 21% equating to a less than 1% year-in-year-out increase from 1979 to 2005.
So why is it important to continue to enhance the incomes of elite capitalist pirates at the expense of hard working Americans who have gone into debt just to maintain their prior modest standard of living? If we take into consideration that unionized workers have experienced less wage inequality than non-unionized workers from 1979 – 2007 it becomes apparent that the union workers wage is more comparable to the wage that a non-unionized worker would have received if his voice had been merge in solidarity with the voices of other subjugated laborers. Keep this in mind when you’re envious of the wages and fringe benefits received by unionized workers – they fight every day to receive a fair wage from employers who drain the global economy dry of income in order to build a mountain of wealth that can be used to control our politicians, lives, and insure their place (reduce income-class mobility) within the world plutocratic dictatorship. These plutocrats who are holdbacks from their aristocratic fellows from centuries ago don’t care whether you the laborer lives or dies your just a ‘widget’ to be used and thrown away at their whim – a means to an end to acquire more and more wealth.
With more than 1 in 4 U.S. workers in 2007 earning wages that were at the poverty level (further fueled by increased wage deceleration across all professions) what we least need now is to reduce the wages of U.S. autoworkers to a level below all but the wage rate paid by Hyundai to its U.S. line workers. Of course, there are a few lobbyist beholden body-snatched government representative’s that require that their payback feeding tubes continue to flow with pilfered booty from their business elite masters – they must obey their master’s edicts and destroy all traces of unionism within the United States. Unions are the only bulwark to a fair wage, good working conditions, and a voice that workers around the world have in their fight to eliminate labor exploitation prevalent in this globalized cheaper labor sourced plutocracy.
B.S. in Economics, Careers that I've held: Accountant, Senior Financial Analyst, Software Engineer III - (Boeing FCS Program, and Phantom Works project), Senior Software Developer - (Pearson, LLC)
Comments
-Rocky
So are you saying NAFTA, has nothing to do with the job losses in manufacturing??? What economist are you listening too or is that the latest from Rush??? :P
I understand GM, has been building cars in foreign lands for almost a century but that doesn't make it right. If they want us to buy their crap well they need to allow us to export our crap to their country and any trade barrier they place on our goods will be implemeted here on their goods. That would be fair trade. I'm not a strong believer in trade unless it's with a country that has a similar standard of living!!!
-Rocky
-Rocky
The Teamsters haven't struck this particular plant since the early 1970s. The company must be getting a fair shake because they are still there after 34 years. The only time I could've question their judgment was when they defended three employees should have definitely been fired:
There was this one guy who was kind of slow and maybe a bit unpopular. They duct-taped his hands and leg, put him in a box, banded it up, and put the box on a high rack with a forklift truck. After leaving him up there three hours, they brought the box down, released him, but then grabbed him, hung him up on a crane's hook by his belt, and sprayed him with fire extinguishers.
I felt these guys should've been fired for egregious safety violations, the potential harm they could've done to this employee, misuse of company property, and goofing-off in general. They were about to be fired, but the union got them off with a three week suspension without pay.
No doubt it's great for the worker and their ability to consume. But due to a variety of reasons ranging from management ineptitude, union inflexibility, to a consumer that doesn't want their product, the big 3 must cut costs where ever they can to survive. They need to get a lot smaller. The fact that my tax money is supporting a company that I wouldn't use my own money to buy a product from really bothers me.
If GM could afford the contracts then we wouldn't be having these discussions.
Absolutely they should have been fired. Without unemployment benefits too. That type of BS should not have been tolerated. What's really a bunch of BS, is if that poor guy would have been seriously injured or worse yet killed, the company would have been on the hook for a possible lawsuit, disability/workman's compensation expenses. I seriously doubt the union would pony up any funds to help the company pay for the damage caused by employees who should have been terminated immediately. These are the areas I have serious issues with unions.
My god, Dallas. Now you really tick me off. CAN'T YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REALITY, IDEAS, AND SARCASM????????????? First Lemko, and now you. Man what is wrong with you guys....
To make this clear (in case my English really suck):
1) SARCASM: I said "My 12 y.o cousin can do the UAW jobs"
Meaning: it really doesn't take much to be as "skilled" as UAW workers.
2) REALITY: I said: "As long as there are poor countries in the world there will always be cheap labor everywhere. "
Read carefully: DO YOU SEE THE WORD CHILD LABOR ANYWHERE ON THAT SENTENCE?????
3) IDEAS: I didn't say anything, though I sure as hell will NEVER suggest anyone to resort to underage and underpaid labors.
Another thing, UAW workers are dead-on overpaid. Teachers, homemakers, architects, engineers, now they're underpaid.
Have I made myself clear enough????????
Btw, as some of you seem to detest socialism and communism, from what I see that's exactly what the UAW is trying to do. They seem to balk at anyone making more money or getting more benefits and demand that they get the same. When will this end? By the time noone else gets paid more than UAW imo.
UAW is the perfect picture of impossible American dream: to have lots of money with the least effort. Bah!
Those who put no effort deserve to gain none. If the UAW sets the bar for the term "working hard" then the hard workers I know must have worked like slaves.
PS: quoting the bible is inappropritate imo, as using religion to support your post may cause more confrontation than it should. Referring to the 3rd world countries as toilets is another one. Try not to unnecessarily breach sensitive issues, please.
"...And even those great successes could be at least a little bit disputed. Concepts like adequate rest, work safety, pay reflecting qualifications, were bound to happen regardless of unions. Perhaps unions helped them materialize faster..."
I guess, by this reasoning Lincoln just happened to be in the right place at the right time, because slavery was bound to end sometime.
"....I don't really blame unions for what they are - they really do what they think is their mission. It's more politician's fault that they exploit those instincts and set up a system that basically dooms any company that is unionized, especially in the North."
So, rather than play by the rules, companies went South where rules are more hostile towards unions, and wages are lower. Then, when that wasn't good enough, they left the South for another country.
But, did the cost of your clothes, or sneakers go down???? No. Did their profits go up??? Yup.
I worked at McDonald's while in college. I was a *SKILLED* burger flipper - I also worked the cash windows, drive through, cooked meat, toasted buns, made filet-of-fishes, fries - you name it, I did everything you could do in that store. I suspect that what I did took more skill than a single UAW job, say installing seats. I had a lot of variety and had to use my judgement on many tasks. I figure I should have been earning at least UAW salary and benefits. It's awful how MickyD has been taking advantage of skilled workers. They need a union and our burgers might end up at $10.
Do, you honestly think that ANYBODY......whether it be Rockerfeller or Vanderbilt, or Jobs or Gates would do this out of the goodness of their hearts??? They'd give them what they deserve alright...... NOTHING.....because that's exactly what a retiree would give them after years of dedicated service like that.
".....Dallas, given the right tools my 12 y.o cousin can do what UAW workers do. "just place the metal plate on the press machine and you're good"
Sounds to me like you'd be FOOLISH enough to let him, too. There are laws that prohibit young children from running machinery like that, for good reason.
People like you have a lot of GALL, UNMITIGATED GALL, to poke fun at someone's job, and the pay they recieve, when you've never done it yourself.
I suppose it's OK for a NON-UAW employee to put lug nuts on a car for $28/hr like they do in Toyotaland????
LMAO :P :P :P Good point.
Seems to me the companies came IN to the south and built there (Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, BMW, etc.). The Northern companies went OUT from the north to Mexico, Canada, etc (Ford, GM, etc).
Cooter, tell that to the UAW. Btw, in case you missed the point, I used that example to point out the different mentality between Japanese and American workers that allowed the company to catch up with Americans, and the companies being grateful enough to give back for those dedication. American workers didnt do that, thus deserve nothing.
There are laws that prohibit young children from running machinery like that, for good reason.
Cooter, you, Dallasdude, and Lemko need to read my post #7669. Come on, it's only a few posts before yours and you seem to conveniently miss it. :P
to poke fun at someone's job, and the pay they recieve, when you've never done it yourself.
Why should I? I visited Fairfax, looked at the way they build those Malibus for hours. I didn't think I'd be able to do it, I KNEW I could do it.
Besides, why do I have to? I worked hard (try 12hrs a day, 6 days a week), studied hard (double major in 4 years) all for the sake of getting a good job and a good life. What about them? Do you really think their efforts should worth like $50/hr? That's what architects get and their jobs require much much more education and responsibility.
Btw, you seem to narrowly assume I never did any grunt work. Well, guess what, I spent 2 summer breaks working at a wood cutting factory back in college.
Others like to create an uproar. Here's a tidbit:
"Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades"
That has been a pet peeve of mine. Wasting Union time and energy protecting workers that clearly do not deserve a good paying Union job. That was one thing I liked about working in the Oilfield. You step out of line and you were on the next plane. No Union on earth has enough resources to fight an Exxon or BP for one employee that deserves to be fired. Of course the oil companies paid well enough that there was little chance of any Union working their way in. The Technicians working for BP made about $35k more per year than I did. Anyone with half a brain is not going to step out of line and lose a job that pays $150k per year working only 26 weeks. Our Union pension was only slightly better than the oil companies. Yes the oil companies still have pension plans. Just flash a Union card around an oil facility and you won't have to worry about management. The trades people will toss you out onto the frozen tundra.
I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government. Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins. Bad news people - it's coming whether we like it or not. The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away." I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the final vote count was tallied..."we really might not do it in a year...or in four..." Where the Hell was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office.
Stop trying to put off the inevitable folks ... That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000... People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits... That job driving that forklift for the Big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year... We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe...
That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home... Let the market correct itself folks - it will. Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna' be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it all, is a nation that appreciates what it has...and doesn't live beyond its means...and gets back to basics...and redevelops the patriotic work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world...and probably turns back to God.
"....... Why should I? I visited Fairfax, looked at the way they build those Malibus for hours. I didn't think I'd be able to do it, I KNEW I could do it.
Besides, why do I have to? I worked hard (try 12hrs a day, 6 days a week), studied hard (double major in 4 years) all for the sake of getting a good job and a good life. What about them? Do you really think their efforts should worth like $50/hr? That's what architects get and their jobs require much much more education and responsibility."
I don't think watching them for a few hrs. does justice to actually working for them. I'm sure you could do my job, but to actually WORK for Verizon, and do the work is a horse of a different color.
I DO think their efforts should be worth $50/hr ( w/ bennies). I would expect an architect or accountant to make more ( my accountant charges $180 to do my taxes, an hours worth of work).
Could their wages be depressed because there are more workers than actual jobs, as more people go to college???
Why? Is it anymore strenuous than hanging sheet rock or pulling weeds? The only reason the D3 UAW workers are making those big bucks are contracts that were negotiated many times under duress. GM management has 6000 dealers they have contracts with to provide vehicles. The UAW knows that and strikes the plants that make the popular vehicles. I would say that is ok except when the company is on the verge of bankruptcy. Then the UAW is shooting themselves in the foot. Or more recent strikes I believe they shot themselves in the head. That would explain why UAW leaders are brain dead. The sooner GM files for C11 and the courts void all contracts the sooner they can get back on the road to profitability and pay US the money they now owe US.
I know several accountants and none make anywhere near that amount per hour. I The average accountant makes nowhere near $100k/yr. Your accountant probably has several hours behind the scenes on catching up with tax code changes. If he/she charges flat rate for a 1040, one may take an hour and the next could take 3 for the the same $180.
The marina that works on my boat charges $75/hr, the mechanic is probably lucky to get 1/2 of that.
BTW...we were open a half day on Saturday (8-1) and a full day in the week (8-5:30)...I was paid $1.00 for a Saturday (between age 7-9) and, if school was closed, I got $2.00 for a full day...during Xmas, a full week and I was paid $10.00, plus the $1.00 for Saturday, for a grand total of $11.00...BIG BUCKS!!!!!...you want to know what WEALTHY is???...a nine year old with $11.00 in his pocket!!!!!
Further, I saw what the Teamsters and their strikes did to my father's little shop (sorry gagrice, other than that we are friends) and I learned my disdain for unions...later, working for Dad in the 70s, I saw the junk the Big 3 made, but did not understand the UAW...then, living in Detroit in the 80s, I got firsthand knowledge of the UAW attitude, and finally understood why the Big 3 made such outstanding JUNK for the last 10 years (the 70s) and why the union was worthless...once I bought my first Honda in 1985 it was an epiphany, and I knew WHY we made the junk, and I place it all at the feet of the UAW...management designs the ugly cars, but the UAW makes it into the junk it is...missing bolts, extra screws, windows missing parts, loose seats and squeaking dashboards are simply rotten manufacturing people who don't give a sh** about what they make...
The death of the UAW will be the rebirth of the Big 3...
Am I on topic?????
My thoughts on the UAW - get rid of them - they are what makes the Big 3 charge more for their crappy vehicles to pay the high salaries for UAW management. I'm not saying that the UAW workers are lazy and don't deserve their due salaries...but my thought is that with the Union, it tends to help UAW workers become lazy because they're not overly hungry for a paycheck - how are they held accountable for their crappy work? Most Americans want to buy American, for good reason, but unfortunately they tend to get crappy cars for the money they've paid. Get rid of the UAW and the Big 3 should be able to sell better cars at a lower price and still pay the "good, hard-working" laborers a decent salary.
I don't think he expected to create an uproar; he just expected to resist the pressure of the peer group. Amazingly well-written for someone who doesn't know the difference between "speaking his peace" and "speaking his piece." His shop is about 20 minutes away.
I'd vote for him: "Most of the correspondence has been positive and many are even calling for Knox to run for office."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What if Wall*Mart paid $50/hour to their people? Some would applaud that as being a GREAT way to go... but in reality, the prices of their products would have be so high to pay those wages that noone would shop there. At the end of the day, Wall*Mart would go out of buisness and EVERYONE that works there would lose their job.
This is the situation where the UAW has postured the American automakers.
In reality, the encoemy is a balancing-act between wages/cost-of-living. If either side of this gets out of balance, things go wrong. In the case of the UAW and the US automakers, the scale is overweighed on the side of salary and benifets thus making the products overpriced for the market.
The MARKET cannot be changed... but the salary/benifets can. To any reasonable person, the corrective action is obvious.
Bob, you gave up honest labor to become a lawyer and yet you complain about UAW workers? :P
That is less than 75 hours a week. I know people that are salaried that work that much and more. They are commonly referred to as workaholics. Even in the 1960s the supervisors were expected to work a lot more than 40 hours per week. That made their hourly pay less than the people under them. The very reason I refused management positions. You want me to work 60 hours a week and wear a stinking suit for less than I am making now? Are you crazy? And of course they would give you the working your way up the ladder BS. Which I knew was not going to happen without a degree.
Why I find the current UAW wages out of line is thus. When I made about $10k per year in the late 1960s a dentist made about $60k per year. OK. he has a doctorate that took a minimum of 6 years if he was real bright. For the sake of argument we say that the UAW worker is skilled. His base yearly wage is $62k plus. That means for parity from the 1960s the dentist would be making $600k per year. Now I happen to be friends with my dentist and he made less last year than I made the last year working in the Arctic. Our friend Oscar the fork lift operator that was filing for bankruptcy when they cut his OT was making more than my dentist. My dentist has been in practice in the same building for 31 years. He is a year younger than me and cannot afford to retire until his son can take over the practice. So you want to talk about parity. I would say that most doctors that DD loves to disparage do not make enough for the $100s or $1000s that it costs them to get through Med school. And our friend the architect that makes less per hour than a UAW lug nut assembler. UAW WORKERS AT the D3 are overpaid. They have been for 30 or more years. I blame most of it on the greed at the top. They were not willing to stand up to the UAW thugs and now GM is ready for the trash heap of history.
Now, are these payments in line with what prices are now, as opposed to 44 years ago when you were making $100/wk? I can't say.
What I think is most important is, is that their standard of living the same as it was in 1965? Is the plasterer's or landscaper's standard of living the same as it was in 1965? I think it should be.
BTW, if you made $10K a year in the late '60's and $62K today, your $60K dentist should be at $360,000, not $600K.
If you read my response to Gary, my point was that it is only fair to MAINTAIN a certain standard of living, no matter what your chosen profession.
So, do you think you make an equivalent salary, as compared to architects from 45 years ago??? If not, why??? As I posted in the post you are replying to, is it possible that there are more people vying for your job ( graduating from college as architects) than 45 years ago, thereby supressing wages???
Yes, I found I could not afford to buy a car made by overpaid UAW workers...the "dollar per half day" would buy me two comic books (1 Superman and 1 Batman) and an ice cream cone...the "2 dollars per full day" was great, until I had to pay for gasoline (35 cents per gallon) and pay for the date (dinner and a movie, plus popcorn)...all this and I was just 9 years old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...maybe I should retroactively sue my father for running a sweatshop.........:):):):):)
So, yeah, I gave up honest work to become a
liaroops, I mean, lawyer (I gotta pay attention to my spelling and pronunciation)...Now, with Dad's shop closed, I gotta look for some real work so I can look myself in the face and try and earn my keep...
All I do now is file those silly papers in bankruptcy Court so people can give up their houses and go homeless or live with Mom and Dad...that is, THEIR Mom & Dad, not my Mom and Dad...
Darn good question that I have asked myself many times. Two fellow workers at Pacific Telephone were bought out early and just picked up odd telco jobs to supplement the small pension they got. I was ready to buy a house when RCA called and offered me the Alaska job in 1970. That $25k house today is worth minimum $600k. So that would have been a plus. As it is I did not get anything for my 9 years service at Pac Tel. It was 15 years vesting at the time. So my pension from the Teamsters is about 20% higher with NO health care. I do have a 401k also from my company that has lost about 40% the last year. It will likely go to my children. I do not see taking out more than is mandatory at age 70.
What I think is most important is, is that their standard of living the same as it was in 1965?
I can tell you my standard of living is higher now. I was living in a shack in 1970 for $60 per month rent. No AC and only a wood stove for heat. Very basic. I don't think that most of the gardeners living in the canyons around San Diego have a very high standard of living.
You are right about my calculations on the Dentist pay. I would imagine most are making similar to my dentist. They have not kept up with the UAW line worker. I can tell you that skilled people in So CA in general do not make what a UAW line worker makes. Journeyman carpenters are real lucky to get $20 per hour. Right now they are lucky to find any work. Very few make under $12 per hour. It seems that $100 per day is a common amount. It is mostly set by the 1000s of illegals hanging out at Home Depot each morning. When the Border Patrol drives up they scatter to the wind. I have never hired one. They must get work as most are gone by noon. When they all get legal status I would expect them to bring the price of labor down more, across a wider area of the USA. If GM survives they will have a whole big pool of willing workers to take the place of the UAW workers once the contracts are gone. Then we will see honest supply and demand working in the Auto Industry. Not the overinflated UAW wages currently being paid. That goes for Civil service workers that have had it made also. Many places are cutting wages and jobs on city, county and state level. CA needs to get rid of about 100k University staff. Problem is they get rid of the workers and keep the administration. So it is not just the UAW that will be suffering.
See, that doesn't help matters. They, much like what you say of the UAW employees, also manipulate the wages paid. Even if they do get legal status, none of them have any allegance to the USA, unlike immigrants who came before them. I would assume, living so close to home, that many of them would take advantage of their legal status and work here, but live there, where $100/day offers a better standard of living.
Is that fair to the $20/hr journeyman if someone who really doesn't belong here undercuts their wage??? I mean, is that any less insulting to those carpenters as UAW workers making their wage is insulting to the architect who makes the same, even though the architect is educated???
-Rocky
You and fintail know that is senseless garbage. Our own widespread technology is the cause. We have spread our opulence around the world via satellite TV. How do you expect someone that watches what is going on with our sports and Hollywood to react to America. They want what we have taken for granted. The UAW is a prime example of that mentality. GM and the UAW ASSUMED they would keep gaining market share. So they start this Ponzi scheme to pay the health care of the retirees on the backs of the current workers. What they did not expect is the stupid American buying public to actually abandon them just because they were offering crap for vehicles.
The guy living in a tar paper shack in Tijuana sees the wealth just across the border. If it was me I would sneak across to get in on the big bucks. Well now we have 30 million illegals all taking the jobs many Americans did not want. That meant those Americans are looking to make as much as they can. They see the UAW and supply of labor soon outweighs the demand. Add to that the lame leadership of the UAW that keep telling the less than bright line workers they can win this battle. Well Rocky they have lost. Face it, the UAW has driven most of the good paying jobs out of the country. And the workers that are left have chased off the customers with substandard workmanship. Less than 200k autoworkers in the UAW. Where once there was nearly a million and a half. You think the workers have gotten the picture? They have priced themselves out of a job. No line worker in the world is worth $73 per hour or even $50 without the retirees weighing them down. They can thank the UAW leadership for screwing up their lives.
Floor Assembler I - $24K - $30K
Floor Assembler III - $34K - $48K
$11/hr - $23/hr.
If any of the D3 go bankrupt, here are the salaries for the auto assemblers you will need in the Detroit area to help you run the plant you could buy from the previous owners that overpaid their union staff....or you could invest in robots.
You choose.
Regards,
OW
How so??? If the transplants are paying close to (80-90%) what UAW workers make, and they are gaining market share, then the jobs are still here, just not union.
"..... Well now we have 30 million illegals all taking the jobs many Americans did not want. That meant those Americans are looking to make as much as they can."
First of all, I think there are a good number of Americans who would be willing to do the work, it's just that because they DON'T live in a tarpaper shack, they CAN'T do it for minimum wage.
Secondly, at least the UAW USES the law to their advantage to "artificially" drive up wages, while those employers BREAK the law by hiring illegals to "artificially" drive down wages. BIG difference.
Hey Hoopboy, I WILL have a beer, an AMERICAN beer, Sam Adams. Not that cheap German S%^T you drink.
Several BIG differences. The Non union shops are not tied to a Ponzi scheme to pay for past sins as the D3 and the UAW have concocted. Everyone involved says that is about $1500 per car built. That can mean the difference between including leather, great audio and a NAV in the import vehicle. So a stripped Malibu costs GM as much to build as a loaded Camry. The imports do not put up with work rules that are disruptive to a smooth running operation.
they DON'T live in a tar paper shack, they CAN'T do it for minimum wage.
$15 per hour is not minimum wage or even close to minimum wage. That is 17% higher than the average starting salary for a school teacher with at least a bachelors degree. If the UAW was serious about keeping jobs in the USA they should have cut everyone back to $15 per hour and given GM a chance to survive. I just cannot believe the mentality that thinks an unskilled job on a manufacturing line is worth $50 per hour with benefits. Makes NO sense at all. Except for the guy raking in the big bucks with NO education. The UAW jobs do not offer any incentive for the workers to get an education to better themselves. They already have an entry level job that pays more than 90% of the college grad jobs in the country. When they get laid off it is much more devastating than the guy making minimum wage. Over a million UAW workers have lost their fat cat jobs over the last 30+ years. That should tell them something. They are NOT WORTH $30 per hour.
Secondly, at least the UAW USES the law to their advantage to "artificially" drive up wages, while those employers BREAK the law by hiring illegals to "artificially" drive down wages. BIG difference.
There you nailed it. The UAW wages are artificially high for the skills needed to do the job. It is no harder or more skill required, than the guy building me a cement block wall that is straight. And workers are stumbling over each other to get those jobs at $15 per hour.
Companies that knowingly hire illegals should be prosecuted. Though from what I understand the Feds are not very much help in determining if the illegal is using phony papers. When you send in taxes and SS payments to the Feds they should know if that is a phony SS ID number. There are many cases of them collecting for years to non existent SS numbers, and duplicate numbers.
I have thought some more about that statement. According to my calculations a person making $15 per hour should be able to qualify for a $150k mortgage payment. Even in over priced San Diego that will get you a dandy condo. I would imagine in Michigan you can buy a small palace for $150k right about now. I know a guy I work with has been trying to sell his Dad's place in Mayville Michigan for 3 years. Last I heard he was down to $110k. That is a 4 BR house on 5 acres. A new hire at GM under the UAW contract should be doing VERY WELL at $15 per hour. No tears should be shed if the old timers get cut back 50% on wages. They had a good run and it is OVER!
Source: salary.com
Regards,
OW
Essentially, it is maligned extreme capitalist propaganda that is at the heart of the misconception that foreign owned auto companies pay their production workers substantially less than workers employed by the U.S. auto companies. The only foreign automotive company that was paying significantly less by about $10 - $15 per hour was Hyundai located in Alabama in so desolate a place that only “Big Foot” lived their prior to them building their massive facility. Most other foreign auto manufacturers pay production wages close to parity with their U.S. automotive competitors.
One reason for production wages not differing significantly between foreign and U.S. auto companies is because the United Auto Workers (UAW) union has created an undeclared wage floor across the U.S. automotive industry simply by having members that have a voice – this has been described as the “union threat effect”. Unionized workers in the auto industry receive fair wages and fringe benefits because they can collectively negotiate with the U.S. carmakers; projecting one voice. Their strength is in their unity behind a common cause of receiving more than just a fair wage but also a certain modicum of job security and freedom from arbitrary corporate rules & edicts. All of these direct benefits fought for by UAW line workers in U.S. auto production facilities ‘spill over’ into the rest of the industry by creating a level of apprehension in foreign auto firms made palpable by the very real UAW organizing efforts at these foreign owned production facilities. These ongoing efforts by the UAW to organize the foreign automotive line workers is the only reason U.S. foreign autoworkers receive a wage that is comparable to their brothers at the Big 3. If the UAW was to vanish tomorrow (some lobbyist beholden Senator’s were hoping to achieve this), the foreign automotive manufactures would join their capitalist brethren in the constant income ‘milking’ of the wages of their workers in order to feed their insatiable greed addiction.
With no union (UAW) floor for automotive industry line worker wages the remaining foreign firms would be free to work their workers harder (increasing productivity) for less money. This is no different than what the average non-unionized worker across all industries has been experiencing from 2000 to 2007 - for their hard work putting in more hours and working more efficiently non-unionized workers have received a ‘just’ reward from their employers in the form of declining wages. The differential between what non-unionized workers would have received in wages given their breathtaking productivity increases (over this period) and the meager wage that they actually received was pilfered away by their employers to buy more houses, cars, planes, and worthless investment securities. In fact, the top 1% of households tripled their incomes by 228% while middle income workers only increased their household income by a paltry 21% equating to a less than 1% year-in-year-out increase from 1979 to 2005.
So why is it important to continue to enhance the incomes of elite capitalist pirates at the expense of hard working Americans who have gone into debt just to maintain their prior modest standard of living? If we take into consideration that unionized workers have experienced less wage inequality than non-unionized workers from 1979 – 2007 it becomes apparent that the union workers wage is more comparable to the wage that a non-unionized worker would have received if his voice had been merge in solidarity with the voices of other subjugated laborers. Keep this in mind when you’re envious of the wages and fringe benefits received by unionized workers – they fight every day to receive a fair wage from employers who drain the global economy dry of income in order to build a mountain of wealth that can be used to control our politicians, lives, and insure their place (reduce income-class mobility) within the world plutocratic dictatorship. These plutocrats who are holdbacks from their aristocratic fellows from centuries ago don’t care whether you the laborer lives or dies your just a ‘widget’ to be used and thrown away at their whim – a means to an end to acquire more and more wealth.
With more than 1 in 4 U.S. workers in 2007 earning wages that were at the poverty level (further fueled by increased wage deceleration across all professions) what we least need now is to reduce the wages of U.S. autoworkers to a level below all but the wage rate paid by Hyundai to its U.S. line workers. Of course, there are a few lobbyist beholden body-snatched government representative’s that require that their payback feeding tubes continue to flow with pilfered booty from their business elite masters – they must obey their master’s edicts and destroy all traces of unionism within the United States. Unions are the only bulwark to a fair wage, good working conditions, and a voice that workers around the world have in their fight to eliminate labor exploitation prevalent in this globalized cheaper labor sourced plutocracy.
B.S. in Economics, Careers that I've held: Accountant, Senior Financial Analyst, Software Engineer III - (Boeing FCS Program, and Phantom Works project), Senior Software Developer - (Pearson, LLC)