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Comments
m4d: you hit the nail on the head that our union-lovers just cannot comprehend...our cars are better for one reason, and one reason only...the Japanese cars were built so much better in the 80s and 90s, that we saw what junk they were making in Detroit...if not for the Japanese, our 2009 vehicles would have the same junk quality as our 1975 cars, as there would be NO reason to make them any better...competition gives us all better products, and those who don't survive in the capitalistic world deserve to be junked, along with their product...the Big 3 are simply reaping in 2009 what they have been sowing with their junk for 30-plus years, because "Quality was NEVER Job One"...
I agree; any company that I've worked for the assemblers or chemical operators are near the bottom of the totem-pole, pay and skill wise. Where I work there are about 20 grades with janitors being grade 1-2, and operators being grades 2-6. Grade 2-6 pay about $12-$15/hr + benefits; no pension.
Now some people will work these jobs all their lives, but just because they CHOOSE to do so, does not mean they are entitled to a wage that is much higher.
There is every incentive for these people to move into a more skilled position.
However in a union, you typically find the mind-set that "I'm an auto assembler, or a cop, or a toll-taker, and will be for life, and therefore we are entitled to make a wage that will allow us to have an upper middle-class income". Very few of these union folks ever say, "Gee there's nothing in life stopping me from opening my own business and making what I'm worth", or "gee I'll get some real good skills, and get a new career".
The typical union attitude is "I'm going to be a worker in this union for the next 30 years; no one should kick me out of my job, and I'm entitled to above average pay and benefits."
Most workers these days change jobs and careers several times in their lives. the typical union mentality is "for the rest of my life I'm a skilled worker at this plant, and I never want to leave". Not reality!
Who says you can no longer afford the finer things in life on $15/hr You could be a ramen gourmet and an afficianado of fine wines like MD 20/20 and Night Train Express. You'd also have an appreciation for fine cigars like Phillies Blunts and Dutch Masters.
I'd say a lot of those guys who work in non-union shops work there because either the pay is competitive or there's no where else to go. In that case, it's work for a pittance and live a meagre existance or starve in the streets like a dog.
No matter, $18/hour (or equivalent after future failed monetary policy) will be a rare wage in the brave new world being wrought.
Was I more qualified than you??? One could argue that and I didn't make no $38 an/hr. like you!!!!
-Rocky
I don't recall anyone saying that it is a decent wage, but it certainly isn't poverty either if your single or having a working spouse. No doubt you won't have anything extravagant. Considering the avg. household that is a family around here has an average income of $60k/yr those type of wages aren't far from reality with many of these households having 2 incomes to get that average and I don't ever recall seeing someone starving in the streets when I'm in town. That could be coming though.
Why do you assume someone has to live alone? Or just have 1 job? If I made $15 or $18/hr I would certainly live with a girl-friend, or get a multibedroom apartment and live with a few other people. Maybe us spoiled Americans could learn from some of the imigrants who come here, live together, start a restaurant or grocery store, and are doing pretty well in 5 years.
You also seem to be of the opinion that there always has to be someone to give people something and tell them what to do. Meaning if a person doesn't have work, some employer or government needs to take care of them. Why don't you consider that an individual should have some initiative and create their own business and opportunity.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Knox Mine Disaster
2018 430i Gran Coupe
If that is all you can afford on $2600 per month something is wrong. My daughter pays $650 for a BIG 2 bedroom 2 bath apartment in Evansville Indiana. It is bigger and nicer than the apartment she had in San Diego that was $1150 per month plus they charged her a $100 more for having a small dog. No charge where they are now for the dog. Let's see that leaves $1950 for food, utilities, gas, car payment. Still above the poverty level I posted for a family of 5. I could easily get by with that if I was not making 4 mortgage payments right now. I will cut that in half if I ever sell my old house.
Was I more qualified than you??? One could argue that and I didn't make no $38 an/hr. like you!!!!
Not even close. We required 10 years experience in the field with several certifications. You were also paid while going to the academy I assume? So if that is what the pay was, I would imagine that was the going rate. It was Union if I remember correctly. Just as an example my first school in 1963 at Pacific Telephone was 9 months 40 hours per week. My next longest school was 6 months in about 1966. The schools got shorter as the equipment got smarter. It also became easier to fix with computer aided diagnostics. Tell me this. Does it take 3 months of 40 hours training to become a line worker at GM under the UAW contract? If not why is that job worth more than your security job? I will let you in on a secret. My job in CA would be lucky to get $25 per hour after a few years seniority. Location, location, location. GO where the money is. If you must stay in Michigan you will be competing with 100s of 1000s of out of work UAW workers.
When I was making $15-$18 an hour, I WAS living alone.
Or just have 1 job?
Back then I was working a second part-time job...and I still am!
I would certainly live with a girl-friend
Good luck finding a girlfriend at $15-$18 an hour! Women aren't interested in poor schmucks living on the ragged edge of poverty. Even if you did find an enlightened woman who wasn't interested in your money, you will soon find she's an expensive luxury and that it would be more cost-effective to live alone. If you have two jobs, you'll be too busy to spend any time with her and she'll become resentful of your "workaholic lifestyle."
Living with others is OK as long as you're all close friends and can trust one another. I wouldn't take a chance on strangers who might bring all manner of evil into your home - i.e. drugs and thugs.
Maybe us spoiled Americans could learn from some of the imigrants...
And live 20 to a house in squalid conditions!
...start a restaurant or grocery store, and are doing pretty well in 5 years.
While ignoring the reality these new immigrants who do so are given massive tax breaks not given to American-born citizens. Even with the tax breaks most fail. Many of these so-called industrious immigrants end up on the wrong end of a felon's pistol. Come to Philly some time and you'll hear plenty of stories of immigrant shopkeepers gunned down by some thug. A lot of these immigrant shopkeepers also fail to report all their income to the IRS and take massive amounts of cash home with them rather than banking it. Some enterprising thugs followed a Korean owner of a beauty products store home and killed him in a violent home-invasion robbery using this knowledge.
Why don't you consider that an individual should have some initiative and create their own business and opportunity.
Oh, there are PLENTY of guys who do this. They're commonly known as "drug dealers."
Some deductions will be taken out of that $2600 such as Fed tax (not much), state, FICA etc, plus insurance etc, so say that $2600 is $2000/mo bring home. Still enough around here to live on.
Remember Rock is up there in UAW country where an apartment which is $650 around here in central Illinois and southern Indiana might be $1500/mo in Michigan after the UAW surcharge is levied LOL. But I know Rock is exaggerating a bit because my BIL & SIL bought a nice new small 3 bedroom house in a town about 20 miles south of Grand Rapids for roughly $130k about 2 years ago and neither my BIL or SIL make anywhere near UAW wages in their respective jobs. Their house payment is under $1k/mo. Two people making 30-40k each, can comfortably afford that type of payment. No, it's not extravagant, but it's nice and they are comfortable..
Oh that's right, anyone who lives outside the big city is an ignorant hick.
I don't call an apartment complex with indoor pool, on a lake, with a huge workout facility, tennis courts, starting at $449 per month modest. For that kind of complex in San Diego you will pay over $1000 for a studio. It sounds like people in Michigan are just spoiled having everything handed to them on a silver platter. Now that the money is all gone, the UAW wants the rest of US to bail you out and keep that lifestyle going. :sick:
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I always moved to a place I wanted to live and then found a job. I guess if you're an autoworker, your options are a bit more limited.
"Terms of the $17.4 billion in emergency loans given to General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM) and Chrysler LLC in December include presenting plans to the government that show "financial viability" by Feb. 17, The Detroit News reported Tuesday.
The terms allow the government to rescind the loans if the acceptable plans are not submitted. But, Gettlefinger said the companies have yet to meet with the union, although the terms of the loans also stipulate the companies are to seek concessions from major stakeholders."
Auto companies pressed to meet deadline
So, who's dragging their feet?
From what I hear California has a large tax rate which causes overpricing on everything. But I hear it is the place for illegal aliens to go because of all the free stuff. Not many illegal aliens here.
The way you always talk about Philly, I have no idea why you or anyone else would consider living there. No doubt an average to below average wage in a large city means basically scraping by. Move away from the cities and cost of living drops dramatically.
I've lived in 5 different states over the past 6 years in several different metro areas. Get away from the big cities and you still can get a nice house for well under $200k.
We sold a very nice 5 bedroom 3000sqftl ranch (finished living area with finished basement) with a safe room (tornado/storm room) custom landscaping, sprinkler system, cat 5 wiring and sound through entire house, 3 car garage with a/c in 3rd bay, 1/3 acre lot with rod iron fence on an 18hole golf course two years ago for $190k in Wichita, Ks. Some of the smaller ranches were under $140k. Sure Wichita isn't the most glamorous place, but it is a city of 400k people with things to do other than wrestle cows. When we lived there it was like living for free as our income was more than we paid for the house. Man I miss those days.
The wages at the airplane manufacturers were/are in the $15-20/hr range and people could maintain a decent lifestyle with the associated cost of living. Those are union jobs BTW.
I think time for bargaining is past. If the bondholders accept a 50% reduction that is what GM and Chrysler should tell the UAW. We want 50% or we file for bankruptcy. If the UAW refuses. Shut er down. We will see how interested the UAW is in keeping the Auto industry in the USA alive. For one thing it would bring all the workers back to an even wage. That to me is important for harmony in a Union. Why should only the new hires sacrifice?
It appears that your definition of "aspirations" is a flat out demands of getting more regardless of reality around, just because you say so, or because somebody told you in a newsletter that you are entitled to get more no matter of your skills, qualifications, or actual value. Just because. That is not aspiration - that is free lunch.
I define aspirations by wanting to learn, getting education, in other words bettering myself to become more valuable in eyes of potential employer (just by a plane fact that nobody else can do what I can do). Aspiration is a single mother working two jobs so her son can go to law school and become president - even if I wouldn't vote fo the guy, I certainly respect that aspiration, not just simple "gimmie, gimmie, gimmie", whether coming from a lug nut assembler or a CEO.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
But I think you're missing the point that I and many others here are making is that if you decide to stop education at high school, not go out on your own and see what you're skills are worth, and decide to do an assembly job, you should be happy to get a median wage; certainly you shouldn't expect to get above average wages comparable to teachers or nurses, and other professions that require years of college.
I feel the UAW jobs, with some exceptions, are low skilled positions and should be paid as such. Seeing minimum wage is $7.XX/ hr and the average wage in the country is about $20/hr, then I feel slightly less than average would be the right wage for the average UAW worker's skills. $15-$20/hr, with no pension or retiree health care is about the going rate.
People want to raise their families and spend time with them rather than working their butts off 75+ hrs a week AND CONSTANTLY going to school to upgrade their "marketability just for the vague possibility that some hypothetical employer may see value in them. What happens more often is the person who does so may actually get that cherished job, but soon burns out or is callously thrown aside by that employer for whatever reason it feels.
You also seem to forget that most Edmunds posters who are pro-union actually are well-educated people who have achieved some measure of success. We're not a bunch of uneducated beer-swilling mullet-coiffed slobs who are more concerned about who wins next week's game than our own careers.
Union folks are blind, literally blind, to the fact that most of us started out working for meager wages, lived simply (one bedroom apartment, NOT on the 18th hole), and ate salads 5-6 days a week...it is the sacrifice one makes while one develops skills to earn more as you get older...BUT, if you are one who decides NOT to improve your skills, then, frankly, you DESERVE minimum wage, or less, for the rest of your life...if you sweep the floor for 30 years, you barely deserve COLA...no, I am NOT denigrating the work ethic of the person who sweeps the floor for 30 years, but I will dispute the VALUE that they should be paid, as it is about as unskilled as one can get...if that is where they stop improving themselves, then all they will ever afford is a basement one-room apartment, and that is their lot in life...
But don't try to tell me that because they did it for 30 years the job is worth $50K, because it simply is not...
Our UAW cheerleaders siply have no idea about starting at the bottom and WORKING your way up...
gagrice, you spoke of much schooling you had as you went thru life, improving your skills...that is what I mean, plus you took the risk and went away to Alaska because the pay was better...you took risks, you altered your life to improve yourself and go where the money was...these UAW clones just want to plop their collective a**es in one palce, improve not one whit, and make $60K yearly, because they deserve it...
Reality for the UAW will be hell, but I would guess that within one generation, that "entitlement DNA" will evolve out and normalcy will emerge...
No normal employer will pay $60K for someone to sweep the floor, and it's high time the UAW figured out they ain't worth it for what they do...
Obama may love his unions, but he can't make us buy their cars...if no one buys the green junk they are about to make, the Big 3 will continue to shrink until even a Democrat will realize that permanent layoffs are the only way to save the companies...
I am sure the dinosaurs fought their inevitable extinction, but, in the end, you cannot stop the oncoming train...
But, lemko, if that is what the world is coming to due to competition, how else can we adapt, except by making a choice and accepting the opportunity cost???...stay at home and sacrifice upgrading skills and possibly a better lifestyle, or continue to upgrade but less time at home???...the only difference in the income is that the person who chooses family (a good choice, I might add) must simply face the fact that the BIG house and fleet of cars, all that consumer junk, will not be his in this life...living without a plasma TV isn't bad, unless you work at Best Buy trying to sell them...:):):):):)...
I remember that TV show. Ozzie and Harriet. With few exceptions I have not known many single working parent homes over the last 40 years. I will agree that it is preferable for mom to stay home with the kids. My wife stayed home till both my children were in School, then she went back to teaching. How many people do you know today or even in the last 10 years that mom stayed home and dad could support the family in the style that you would consider good? I just don't see that happening except for those on welfare.
Clear enough.
Having to commute does suck. My MIL works downtown Chicago and commutes to NW Indiana. When it snows or their is a wreck, her commute can easily be 3 hours to drive 45 miles. No thanks.
Regards,
OW
I think that's the very reason the UAW members are trying so hard to hang onto what they have They negotiated hard so they wouldn't have to earn what the rest of the world does. I don't know how you can fault them for that.
Well, I don't - as long as I'm not forced to help foot the bill for an industry bailout.
Remember - I wasn't allowed to sit at the table when these wages & benefits were negotiated, so it's wrong to pick my pockets now to pay for them. As far as I'm concerned, that's a state-sanctioned mugging.
Education has been depreciated, become more valuable now, but wait 10 years and you'll be offshored.
The greatest entitlement mentalities I see are in the corporate world, especially the financial industry, and in the public sector - a huge union based system few dare to criticise.
I feel sorry for you "po" folks. :P
That is where your sense of "knowing" people comes in. You should have the ability to befriend the right kind of people. If not, you will have a lot of trouble in your work life and your personal life since you will also not be able to decide upon a girlfriend or a wife for that matter.
I don't think anyone is faulting them for negotiating a good wage for themselves. I know that I am not. It is the fact they feel they deserve to maintain that wage with the company going broke. They want the rest of us to subsidize their opulent lifestyle. Like we did for the bankers and insurance moguls. I am against bailing out any of them. I do think they are on very shaky grounds promising money to retirees on future profits. That sounds like Madoff and his scheme. Keep taking in more money and paying off past investors.
steve: I don't fault them for WANTING it...I fault them for EXPECTING it as though they have the Divine Right of Kings...no matter how you slice it, we have a little (or not so little) fantasyland in UAW-Michiganland where the unskilled worker (there is no other way to term it, as the work is unskilled labor) managed to get paid a great multiple of what they would be worth in any other industry in any other circumstance...due to import competition, the gravy train, while slowly ending over the last 20-plus years, is finally gasping its last breath...the cat is out of Pandora's box, and the rest of the nation (who probably average $10-15 per hour) cannot see bailing out folks who are inherently worth $7-10 per hour making $30-plus per hour...
Their stupid restrictive work rules, shoddy workmanship (we should have had CTS and Malibu quality 20 years ago, not suddenly in 2008), drunkeness, absenteeism, sabotaging, and simple incompetence have brought (or helped to bring) the Big 3 to their knees, and now they act as tho they have NO IDEA how they got there...John Barleycorn Must Die, and so must the UAW...
Strong opinionated thoughts to follow shortly...
with GM to build Toyota products in California. The joint venture began in 1984 when the US
created an import tariff on foreign pickup trucks. The joint venture with GM allowed Toyota
to avoid the tariff and build up a base in the U.S. NUMMI is still an active venture that
currently produces the Toyota Tacoma, Toyota Corolla and the Pontiac Vibe lines of vehicles.
However, Toyota now assembles cars on its own in the U.S. at plants of its own in Kentucky,
Indiana, and Texas. Some parts for the cars, such as engines, are manufactured in Toyota
plants in Alabama, West Virginia and Long Beach, California.
So Toyota came to America (transplant factory) in 1984. So how many UAW represented workers could they have at this plant? I bet they get retirement medical benefits.
http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/research/educators/060322_28a/
Toyoda, who holds a master's degree in business administration from Babson College in the U.S., has overseen Toyota's China operations, Japan sales and the Internet business. Previously, he served as vice president at New United Motor Manufacturing Inc., a Fremont, California-based joint venture between Toyota and General Motors Corp. (NYSE: GM), giving him key experience in the U.S.
At his news conference, Toyoda sent a message about job protection, stressing that he wanted to be "a president who was close to the workers."
Like other Japanese automakers, Toyota has been reducing temporary workers at its auto plants in Japan to curb production amid the global recession.
The use of such workers had been illegal in manufacturing in Japan until 2004, but their numbers have grown in recent years at all Japanese automakers as a way to cut costs and adjust production.
But the thousands of temporary workers who have lost their jobs are emerging as a major social problem - partly because Japan, a corporate culture that promised lifetime employment for decades, wasn't prepared to deal with them.
"When a person is employed at a company, that person should feel at the end that it was a good life. It should be a place you would want for those who are close to you, like family," he said, while stopping short of promising no layoffs. "Stabilizing employment is very important."
Until last year, Toyota's sales had been booming because of its reputation for mileage and quality.
Toyota has been on track to dethrone General Motors as the world's No. 1 automaker by annual sales, a title GM held for 77 years, though the weakened state of the global auto industry would make it a hollow victory.
Detroit-based GM is scheduled to give its global vehicles sales tally Wednesday.
For the first half of this year, GM, pummeled by falling U.S. sales and high gas prices, lost the global sales lead to Toyota, by about 277,500 vehicles.
The gap has widened since then. Toyota reported it sold 7.05 million cars worldwide during the first nine months of the year, compared with 6.66 million for GM for the same period.
Watanabe said Toyoda was the best person to lead Toyota.
"We are in a crisis," he said. "We need a new point of view, and an ability to act."
Toyota shares rose 2.3 per cent to 3,100 yen in Tokyo. Toyota said it was announcing a new president before trading closed.
http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/20012009/2/biz-finance-toyota-returns-foundin- g-roots-choosing-new-president.html
Strong opinioned thoughts are most appreciated, especially ones like yours that usually relate to the UAW.
Molds are built to make those plastic parts on a car, mostly the interior of many cars. Then too, injection mold for casting are made. The part is first made of wax in the injection mold. Then many parts or one part are dipped into ceramics and then the wax melted out and hot metal is poured in. In the case of light parts the wax has whats called a gate, the gate is joined to whats called a Christmas tree and then dipped. Large parts like an engine is normally done as a single casting.
Jigs and fixtures are used to hold parts and or secondary machining operation on parts from any or all of the above. A fixture is used to hold an engine block for further machining on a CNC machine at which time boring, milling, drilling.
This is a rather simplistic description that comes from many different specialties in the modern machine shop. Tooling is the backbone of the production process.
In the last 7 years we have done, in automotive engineering terms, what the prior 70 years did. You simply didn't have the technology 20 years ago.
"If you save, you can still live. Amazing. "
I knew we could agree. " The secret to accumulating wealth is to live beneath your means. " B. Baruch You have worked hard as have others, yet you defend a younger generation that demands entitlement. Walter Reuther would be sickened if not downright nauseated.The three goose is damn near cooked, fair pay ok, but just that.Three retiree's gear up for a hit. It's only fair.
I don't know where your writer got his information. The 25% tariff against foreign built trucks was around 20 years before Toyota teamed up with GM.
"The "chicken tax" proclamation signed by President Lyndon Johnson in December 1963. The tax was aimed at Volkswagen, at the time the only automaker importing pickups into the United States. The tax, a 25 percent tariff on imported pickups, was a response to the tripling of taxes in Europe on chickens exported by U.S. farmers."
So there is your history.
But why the success of small Japanese trucks in the US if there was a 25% tariff?
"The solution was to import the cabs and their powertrains but to produce the truck beds domestically, with installation taking place at the ports where the trucks entered the country."
(In this way, they were considered to be US assembled, and not subject to taxation.)
By the time the Japanese began importing trucks into the US, no one really cared about Johnson's 10-year old "chicken tax" aimed at VW, so this creative way around the tariff was ignored.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6674/is_/ai_n26627470
This was a protectionist scheme to prevent Better small PU trucks from entering the US market and taking UAW jobs. It is still in effect. Proving protectionism does not work.
Well speaking of experience of living in the bible belt of Texas, I can tell you first hand unions have little rights and the people are like nervous sheep!!! Also the mentality of the mindless sheep in the rural south is they would take advice from their corporate paid-off preacher or pastor instead of a evil northern union representative of the UAW. I've witness these same sheep be baited with a dollar raise to vote down union representation and the organizers inside the plant be canned for various reasons. Oh you say file a complaint with the NLRB??? We had over 550 NLRB charges against my employer and the State of Texas, did nothing to enforce the laws on the books!!! Yeah, I know I'm just a disgruntled yankee, right and none of this happened!!!! :sick:
-Rocky
I had some sort of training usually once a week after I graduated from the academy!!! Like anything else the more time you put in the more valuable your skill set is....I'm not trying to knock your former profession down gagrice, but am trying to make you aware of how you sound when trying to bash UAW, workers many who like my father had 27 years under his belt and was multi-trained. Also keep in mind working everyday for 8-12 hrs OJT is a lot more educational than showing up at a college to take a course on underwater basket weaving!!! Some of ya'll put so much emphasis on college education which is a joke and put little respect or cedibility on OJT where you actually learn a skill or trade. I also respectfully disagree that your $38 an/hr. job at the telephone company was more valuable than mine because not just anyone can go guard our nations nuclear weapon stockpile yet anyone who is crazy enough to go live in Alaska, with Palin, I guess should be compensated well!!! :P
-Rocky