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In lean terms, that adds up to the wastes of time, flexibility, and resources. With longer distance and lead time, production plans need to be frozen sooner (not really a factor if other parts have the same lead time, however). Fuel for trucks and trains is costing more and more which has to add to the final cost of the parts to GM, burning it creates CO2 and particulate emissions and depletes finite stocks of oil. But as most readers know, hourly wages - no longer a dominating cost of production - distracts executives from considering total system cost of a product.
http://leanreflect.blogspot.com/2008/04/auto-production-shifts-to-and-from.html
PS
I have allocated most of my 401K is in FLPSX & FICDX. Yes I got greedy as I was tempted to pull out when the market got to 14,000. I knew that it was due to fall. Oh well, I have time to let it build back up before I am forced to start drawing out. I think they are letting people leave it in for 2009.
The last UAW strike was in 1950. The Teamsters had three strikes in the 1990s (Midwest, Rider and UPS). I think you have your brethren mixed up.
You do know of course that research has shown that it is luck to predict the end of a correction. Was last week's drop the bottom? How about if it goes down another 10%? 50%?. Market timing is idiocy. Just like the UAW.
Yes, the total cost more importantly includes health care and retiree costs like the UAW Ponzi scheme. And flexibility - if work rules limit manufacturing flexibility then that certainly raises the costs tremendously. Between 10 brands and 2000+ pages of work rules, how much money does GM waste that could go into quality parts?
:confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
So the UAW did not strike American Axle last year, or GM in the late 1990's?
What are you talking about? The UAW went on strike in several locations this last year. When I refer to the Teamsters. I only accept responsibility for the bargaining units I was negotiating on. For many years the Alaska Teamsters were totally separate from the International. Our retirement is still Alaska only thankfully. I can understand them striking in the 1990s as that was a very bad time for the USA :shades:
I doubt that a year has gone by that the UAW did not strike somewhere. They would rather stand picket line than work. It is the entitlement mentality. Kind of reminds me of the protests in the Middle East. Most of them are clueless what they are protesting. Just follow the leader. That is the UAW membership.
Its not too hard to be prudent and get advise from many. I never saw the economics of the housing boom. No economic basis whatsoever for that spike in the market. All the baby boomer's had their homes and where this demand was coming from, escaped me. Little did we know about what was driving the housing mania. I did sell my home, rented for three years, and waited to catch the down cycle. Got it too.
The risk of the downside outweighs the risk of the upside in the stock market too. You could see all the folks in the hedge funds heading for safety. It stands to reason that we would be in this down cycle. Guess what? I see no end in sight. Fact is that the housing boom has corrupted the credit markets and spreads it cancer into the entire economy. Or was it the credit market responsible for the housing bust? Dayum if them contrarians weren't right.
An assembly worker makes ~$28/hour
A skilled trades (highest possible wage) makes $33/hour.
So I guess your data is correct but the range is suspect.
http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/ford/hrly/ford_hr02.php
'07 GM contract results
http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/gm/index.php
I'm really sure I read and heard about it many times in the media. So unless all those medias made up the numbers (which I think is impossible) then I believe them.
The suggestion is: "UAW understands what needs to be done, and the companies understand what needs to be done."
The question is: Will they do it???????
A skilled trades (highest possible wage) makes $33/hour"
Okay then to be fair let's all make our comparisons based on the $28/hr range. I did make the calculations in my previous post based on the $28/hr wage and I'm still baffled by the results.
Question: based on the level of skills, education, and responsibility needed for the job, do you really think they're worth $28/hr?
Plus I'm still waiting for ANYONE who can explain to me how UAW workers can ever be considered highly skilled and deserve more pay.
You of course can believe what you want. Misinformation is rampant.
There are 3 sets of numbers thrown about the media and here in the forums. The first is the actual hourly wage that the guy gets in his paycheck. This is the $27 we hear about that is equal with the imports. This number increase with COLA (cost of living allowance-inflation) every year and whatever they can get at contract time.
Then there is the number that includes the beni's each person actually gets like health care, vacation, social security (the employers part), 401 match, education/training, etc. I have seen ~$45 for the UAW and have heard that the imports pay slightly less or the same depending on who calculates it.
Then there is the number that includes all the retirees beni's such as pension and health care that are already out there. That number is bandied about at ~$75 / hour and I would imagine is much more than the imports since they have relatively few (5 years ago Toyota had 5 or so retirees).
What is the average salary of UAW?
(Labor cost is not anything like the same as salary. Labor cost includes, for example, all payments to all ex-workers who have since retired averaged only over those currently working. Since the retirees paid into their pension this isn't really a valid measure of actual company expenses nor salary.)
The average UAW worker, average mid level not entry level, makes $28 an hour or about $58,000 a year.
According to Forbes:
Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)
GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)
Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)
Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)
I think my pay, albeit slightly lower than what I think it "should be" (by couple of dollars/hour perhaps), is totally adequate to have a comfortable life - and it was such already at my starting levels (everything above $30/hour is already "gravy" to me). From where I stand, $28/hour to a high school dropout (or C minus graduate) plus all other "goodies" and 1.5-2.0 OT rate is simply outrageus. Period.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The problem is with some of the UAW workers who have not taken a pay cut. The problem is that the transplants have been able to undercut the pay scales and the price of their products because they don't have, and won't have, the cost of retirees and healthcare for all. There needs to be some kind of equalizing cost for the transplants. The etymology of the problem involves the dumping of products by Japan as a way of establishing a market and undercutting the existing manufacturers back in 80s and 90s.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yes the number that the worker cares about and the UAW quotes is the lower number, which is what they get now. This is because of the self-interst you have of course in what you are receiving to survive now. That is understandable.
For the other 299 million people in the country the number that is of relevance is the higher number including the pension costs. Why? Because we judge what is fair, and what the D3 wages can be, by how much profit/loss the D3 have! It is the total wages that is important, not just the direct hourly pay. TOTAL COST. As long as the D3 put REAL $ towards something that is the REAL COST.
If GM is losing money it can either not afford the number of workers it has, or it needs to reduce their pay until they return to profitability. Or if the UAW can convince GM to cut costs otherwise - that's fine with me too.
How would something like that work?
Should our government hit them with tariffs. Should there be a tax on every car they sell here that could be passed along to the D3 to help them deal with their problems?
I can't even imagine the cost of a new D3 vehicle, if the transplants were not here.
Keep mismanaging, keep knuckeling under to UAW demands, keep paying ridiculous compensation to upper management. Keep building cars with an 80K mile life expectancy? Not to worry, the D3 are the only game in town. Americans are in love with their cars and will pay whatever we charge, for whatever we choose to build !
We live in a capitalistic society. Free enterprise?
I dare say that if any one of us came up with a way to build a 50" high quality "Widget", pay the employees a reasonable wage for their skill levels and sell it for $600 and still make a profit, we would feel it unfair for the government to insist the playing field be leveled to help the established to continue selling their's for $1000.
In reality, there are D3 cars that compete in price with the transplants. Still they lose market share. :confuse:
The transplants hire a lot of people. Not just in the automotive industry.
If we need to level the playing field, perhaps it should be on goods coming into this country. Not on the goods built in this country by American workers.
Kip
I think you are assuming that the imports are running the same Ponzi scheme for health care the UAW and the D3 agreed to. I would guess the imports do not pay health care for retirees. Most companies, Unions and civil service have eliminated health care benefits for retirees. Just because the UAW and the D3 screwed up and miscalculated the future cost of health care should not be a burden to the tax payers. My sister in law is retiring next summer. She has 10 years as a teacher and gets a pension and no health care. Not sure when the state dropped that benefit from their plan. Pension and their benefits should have all been set aside during their time on the job. Only the Feds can afford that kind of Ponzi scheme. At least I hope it lasts till I kick the bucket.
Plus I'm still waiting for ANYONE who can explain to me how UAW workers can ever be considered highly skilled and deserve more pay.
I will agree some of the UAW jobs are relatively easy but if you put in perspective of who they work for and the income they generate for the company they are only 8.4% of the cost. Now you label all UAW jobs as easy. I have no doubt that you or your average engineer could not set-up, fix, let alone know how to turn on the machine my father worked on at Delphi. It would take 6 months of OJT to learn most of his job. Some of you act like your average H.S. drop-out slob off the street and could replace any UAW worker on any job which I'm here to tell you that is simply not true and quit believing everything you read from the media because it might not be the truth. I've worked enough jobs in the manufacturing sector and have been inside a couple of the D3 facilities in my lifetime to know the difference. I also will say some of you had semi-skilled jobs as you call them and made more money than UAW workers yet you trash them because of a false perception. Instead of trying to run your fellow american in the ground over jealousy or what not.... why don't you take a stand and write your congress men and women to pass EFCA, get rid of NAFTA, fix Currency Manipulation, pass a domestic content law, then just maybe the good paying jobs that ya'll are so upset that a few have will be available once again
Rocky
P.S. Gagrice, if you sincerely believe that $15 bucks an/hr. is a great livable wage you my friend have some serious issues....What would $15 an/hr. get you in Washington, Fintail????.....A cardboard box, a drum/barrel and some matches by some bridge??? Geeeeeeeeeeeeeze!!!!!!!!!!
Fairly common ailments in labor intensive jobs. Let me ask you this. If you were not making so much pay for those menial repetitive jobs, would you have tried to get some education and a less strenuous occupation? Digging ditches was fine when I was 15 to 18 years of age at minimum wage. I knew that was not what I wanted to be doing in 20 years. So I opted for another line of work. UAW pay scales have the addictive element to them that tells the guy putting on lug nuts, you will never make this kind of money with a college degree. Then when you are 50 and all busted up it is too late to get out of the addiction. Sadly the UAW is proud of stealing the youth of so many people that probably had the potential to be more than a lug nut assembler.
Then you have the guy with an IQ around 100 that is making $100k per year with lots of OT. He leverages that out to the max on a McMansion, cabin by the lake a couple Caddies and a mothorhome. Then when times are slow and the OT disappears he loses most of the stuff he should have never bought. That is what the UAW has done for unskilled labor in this country. And people making less are not feeling sorry for you all.
That is exactly what has happened in the EU. To a lesser extent here with the illegals coming in to take the jobs. I don't think you want to follow the EU model. Better start making babies and get them educated for the challenges of tomorrow.
-Rocky
$15/hour is low - nobody argues that, but I know plenty of people who lived on that. In fact, ask any post-doctoral fellows (yes - people with PhD) at any university. Most live on that for two-to-five years until they are able to get a permanent position. It's all matter of expectations.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-Rocky
You my friend have been spoiled with your high paying government job in TX. Now that reality is setting in I would think you would be happy with $15 per hour. I have posted the facts. Teachers starting pay is under $30k per year. Most start with a big government loan to pay back. If you cannot live on $31k per year to start you are living WAY above your means. Nearly 50% of the population makes that or less. That is 3 times more than the poverty level pay of $10k for a single person. It is a decent wage for an UNSKILLED person. It will not be enough for him to get lax and think he has it made. That is the problem with UAW jobs. They should be entry level for most people. Unless you want to be slinging fenders at 65 years of age. Actually I think you are looking at 68 before SS kicks in. I worked with a guy for 37 years that could not afford to retire until he was 75 years old. He had a high maintenance young wife and a daughter spending his $100k per year. You really need to get away from the corrupting UAW mentality. It is not healthy and will keep you down for life. I bet your dad will tell you that as well.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/08Poverty.shtml
I have no problem with the working man. I was fortunate to get a lot of schools paid for by my company. That was no thanks to the Teamsters. It was a business decision made by Pacific Telephone, RCA and AT&T. They wanted me to be able to maintain the equipment they were buying. Now the training is nothing. They hand you a CD and tell you to learn from a computer. Company training has gone to the dogs in my opinion.
I am not down on the workers, I am down on the UAW for using strikes to get more for the working man than they should have for the job they do. You seem to think a lug nut assembler deserves $30 per hour when the guy at your local Good Year store does essentially the same thing for $10 per hour. That is a disparity that cannot be sustained. The UAW workers have been losing jobs by the 1000s. You cannot blame it on every thing but their being overpaid for what they do. You live in an unrealistic environment. It may have worked out for grandma and your dad. The D3 no longer have a monopoly on cars.
"As the U.S. auto industry undergoes a restructuring process, this alliance has the potential to preserve a wide range of choices for U.S. consumers, as well as good-paying manufacturing jobs for our communities," said Gettelfinger.
Chrysler announced early this morning a deal with Fiat that gives the Italian automaker a 35% stake in Chrysler in return for sharing technology, manufacturing and management"
Gettelfinger vows UAW support for Chrysler-Fiat alliance (Detroit News)
New discussion just started up:
Chrysler Allies With Fiat
And I would not guess what the imports do. Why be uninformed when you can just look for it?
In the United States, retirees of the Japanese companies pay part of their health care costs. And the Japanese companies' pension obligations are a fraction of that of the American carmakers.
While G.M. paid $5.4 billion last year for the health care of its 141,000 workers, 449,000 retirees and their dependents, Toyota said in its 2005 annual report that its obligations to cover the health care expenses for its retirees "are not material."
A 62-year-old retiree with 25 years at the company would pay $70. Toyota also requires retirees to pay part of their premiums, based on years of service.
In general, these retirees are cut off from the company health plan when they turn 65, and receive instead a lump sum with which they can buy supplementary insurance to Medicare. Honda is alone among the big three Japanese carmakers to still offer a defined-benefit pension guaranteeing a monthly check to newly retired workers in the United States.
Those would be the facts. The avg HS grad makes about $30k a year. My sister has a Master's and is a 3rd grade teacher with nearly $50k in student loans and barely makes $35k/yr in her 3rd year. Now her husband has a bachelor's in construction management and makes 4 times that amount so she's not hurting. BTW, She lived for several years in downtown Chicago making $40k/yr just out of college before she was married and got by, no she didn't own a car, and yes she had a roommate, but she wasn't starving or living in a box.
I know lots of people getting by just fine making under $50k/yr. They don't support 4 people or live in a $300k house with two $30k cars, but they survive and actually save money. This is in the midwest where you still can get a decent house for under $150k or rent for under $1k/mo.
I don't have current info, but found that the avg. manufacturing hourly wage in 2003 was $15.64/hr.
That is so funny! When I read that, coffee almost came out of my nose. Just when I think I've seen everything...
Face it: you're just a commitment-phobic confirmed bachelor with a thousand reasons for not tying the knot. Tomorrow's excuse will probably invoke global warming or the rings of Saturn.
ROFLMAO!!
He just has a darker outlook than I do. I have great hope and expectations for my daughters' futures. Their are still more opportunities today for the upcoming generation than any before it.
BTW. Union membership in the US has never been higher than 33.5% and that was in the 40's during the war effort. It's not like everyone in the 50's & 60's had a union job with an ironclad retirement like many on this thread seem to think. Growing up around the union jobs in the midwest is far from the reality of endured by the rest of the country.
That's the beauty of taking the liberty of cherry picking the data. We all tend do it, it's the easiest way to make a point.
Kip, the problem with this idea is: if the govt put tighter limitations on imports it'll NEVER raise their quality. The workers and companies will feel they're protected thus can make whatever they want no matter how crappy because the customers will have to buy it anyways.
Both companies and workers, UAW included, will never improve because they have no reason to.
This is the risk of capitalism, and you can't just take the good and leave the bad.
I know of the experts' existence. I agree some of those jobs require more, and I agree that those jobs that require REAL skills and education deserve better pay. However the majority aren't.
If turning on a machine requires 6 month of training, I'm sorry if I'm being rude but either the workers aren't smart enough or the trainers can't teach worth crap even for their lives.
Plus, seriously, bud, if you think $15/hr is unliveable, then you're the one with issues. Either you are spoiled or you set the standards for ultra-expensive metros like NY or NJ. There are plenty, and I mean plenty people in th smaller cities and towns who live by that kind of wage with no problems. There were times when I had to live with $18/hr and I went through it just fine. If you think liveable means you should be able to feed 3 kids and your wife while you enjoy cable and new cars then I have to say you're spoiled, totally.
Another question, if the non-union wages aren't liveable, why would the workers even accept them? We can't always blame the illegal immigrants. A lot of those non-union workers are American too, and if they're not satisfied, why don't they join unions??? Makes little to no sense to me.