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Comments
Wow, Lemko, I guess things do change rapidly in the last 8 years. Come on, bud, I was still an elementary student 20 yrs ago.
Decent??? I thought we're talking about LIVEABLE??? Hell $18/hr was pretty liveable where I grew up with their crazy 8% sales tax.
Of course, if you live on such wage remember this: don't even think of getting married and have kids. I personally believe marriage and kids are strictly only for those who can afford it. Not being able to feed your family is a shame I'd never be able to live with.
Car sales are down dramatically in Europe, too, and there is talk about European manufacturers needing a bailout. Sales in Japan have been flat for years, and have actually been declining recently, because younger people simply cannot afford to buy a new car. Honda, Toyota and Nissan depend heavily on the U.S. for auto sales, because of the slump in their home market.
rockylee: I'm not afraid to be called a socialist because I think working people should have rights.
They have plenty of rights in the U.S. Based on your comments regarding the UAW, what you want is for them to have the "right" to pull down their current wage and benefit package, regardless of whether their employers can afford to pay it. But never fear, taxpayers have the "right" to make up the difference, via government subsidies, even if said taxpayers have decided that they would rather buy something else.
If people wanted to support GM, Chrysler and the UAW, they could buy a BRAND-NEW vehicle, without any incentives, from said companies. How many want to do this? Check out long-term market share trends for your answer to that one.
Our UAW cheerleaders siply have no idea about starting at the bottom and WORKING your way up...
Wow, Bob. You really kicked these guys in the nut with your post. :P
Steve, that's the problem. They knew that without the union they'd have to actually earn their pay. Their faults: greed and sloth.
They merely want to live at LEAST as well as their fathers and grandfathers did with one good union job and have a wife who can stay home and properly raise her children if she so chooses.
Lemko, I don't blame anyone for wanting that. However, if their lifestyles can't afford it they shouldn't have gotten married in the first place.
Simply put I don't blame them for wanting to do the best for their family (IF that's really the reason), but the method is just wrong. Honestly all this "entitlement mentality" is idiotic.
I'm also surprised by the other mentality: if you're not born in the working class family then you don't understand their harsh life. Bah....
Also, for those who got no clue on how to start anything with no money, I started at campus cafetaria and turoring to raise some cash. Then once I had enough I started an online shop selling cutprice textbooks and computer parts. Though it didn't seem much at first, I was able to pay for my meals and apartment rent this way.
The chances are out there, whether you're willing to work for it or not is up to you. I mean, come on, I was born in the upper middle class family yet I could still find a way to get cash, why can't you?
This is the mentality missing in the UAW, years of pampering and self entitlement errode them from any sensible logic and creative mind. And they wonder why they're not respected and still think they deserve more?............
Now, back on topic. :shades:
So how come you aren't Michael Dell? Or maybe you are.
Just because someone is a member of the UAW, it doesn't follow that they don't work hard. Putting on lug nuts all day would be hard work. Now, you can argue about how much that's worth, but the lug nut fitter has a union to help those negotiations.
Nobody thinks they DESERVE a $500K home. However, what I noticed from late 2002 till the housing bubble burst was that nobody would build a starter home. Even if you could find someone to, the land (around here, in RI) was at LEAST $200K in of itself.
One thing I remember was a talk show host telling a housing advocate who was clammoring for more affordable housing too bad, let the market dictate the housing price, and not force lower prices by mandate. 4 months later, he was screaming and ready to spill the name of a local contractor who had promised him an estamate on a modest addition, but blew him off. More than likely, the contractor was innundated with work on McMansions, and this modest job wasn't worth it, so the market actually screwed him.
Now, to tie this in, I don't believe UAW employees are looking at buying houses in excess, but I believe they should be able to afford a MODEST (1100 sf) ranch and be able to afford something they build once every 5 years, as well as save for retirement, if we see pensions go by the board. THAT'S not a McMansion, or a ski boat, or a 40' tag-along.
Everybody preaches self-restrained as long it's the other guy doing that self-restrain, not me. When it comes to my contract - no than it's "management's problem". I don't mean to say it's unique to unions. We have CEOs with exactly same attitude of bonuses without any performance attached, or companies putting pricing on their product knowing it may cost them sales tomorrow and forever, banks giving loans to deadbeats just because it was making profit at the time, etc.
Just as an opposite example of real self-restrained. Caterpillar cuts pays of everybody with rule the more you make, the higher the cut, even percentagewise. So, now we are talking real self-restrain. Lug nut assembler takes 10-15% cut, floor manager, 20%, plant principal 30%, vice-pres 40% and CEO 50%. Can Detroit do it? I doubt it. Wouldn't even not cross their minds.
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If you have two incomes at say $20/hour (that's more than a floor sweeper, but less than say an engineer) that is 2*$41K that would probably afford you just that somewhere outside of most expensive cities. Add a little overtime from here and there and you live OK. I know, I did - my starting engineering pay was $21/hour and I was alone. So what are we talking about? No, for Rocky et al. "middle class" is 2500 sq ft house and a Cadillac, not what you just said. Big difference.
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When a company is global last I checked - Ford - GM - Chrysler were all global companies with global products, you have a global work force.
I'm a tech guy and my company is Global meaning if there is a guy in say Romania who can do my job better and for less than me - chances are he will get my job and I'll get walking papers. The UAW is not imune to this no matter how absurd they get with their kickbacks and benifits. The Auto companies face ups and downs like the rest of the worlds companies and if the workers cannot shift and change with the needs of the company either the company goes out of business or the workers are replaced with one's that can shift and change as needed.
I don't care if you build cars for a living - make maytag washing machines or write software code for products used by the US military - if your skill set can be found some place else for better quality and less cost? You need to find a way to make your skill set the best choice. Draining your employer's ability to remain competitive with absurd benifits does not solve the issue.
The largest issue we have here is that to many people think they are due or have a right to something be it high pay for little skill so they can buy things they feel they are owed. Or they feel that if they get laid off they deserve to get paid anyway.
The UAW laid off worker 70% pay thing blew me away who in world gets paid 70% of their income after getting laid off? Oh wait right UAW people.
I have 4yrs of college - 15yrs of top professional experience and when I got laid off - I was given a check that was 1 months pay for each year I worked at the company (this was very generous) though two months pay doesn't go far when it generally takes 9-12 months for someone like me to find a new job. Thats where things like savings - alternate skills and other income sources come into play.
SAVINGS!! - hello one thing Americans don't do is Save money. UAW has its issues but they are all Americans who have similar financial practices as everyone else.
Ok, so what's the difference between 2x$20 or a $28/hr UAW employee and his wife working full time for $12 at the grocery store (also a union job)? Household income is the same.
But I agree. Middle class was NEVER about a 2500 sf house. Just a starter cape when you got married. in a few yrs., kids. A few yrs. later, raise the dormers. A couple years later, a 1 car garage. You do what you can, and sub out the rest.
Extras (camper) start out as a used pop-up (great way to save money on vaca, BTW). When that wears out then an 18 ft tag-along.
In other words, you build up to these things as your salary gets better and payments become more manageable. You don't expect it from day 1.
However, there is no shame in blue collar making $28/hr after several yrs. of hard work with your nose to the grindstone.
That is another reason why I sympathize w/the workers more. I believe that most of GM's problems are the lack of refinancing their debt, as opposed to extra costs with unionized employees. That may have been the business plan. Instead of paying for things, use debt to pay for things and use cash on hand for investing. Well, when BOTH things go sour, you end up w/ less cash, and debt you can't refinance, and now you burn through cash to pay bills AND debt.
I don't believe for a minute that your bosses (more than likely your boss' boss' boss)
are concerned if Romania boy can do the job better than you, but can he do it reasonably as well. Then, if he makes 1/5 th your salary, it's bye bye watkins!!!
Personally, I don't want to do business w/ a company that is that callous about it's US employees.
Let's face it, NOBODY in the US could compete, even at MIN. WAGE, with 3rd world employees at 3rd world wages.
With a global company, Asians should take care of Asians, Euros, Euros, and we take care of US.
My company is where it is because they run a tight ship. And you bet your pennies my boss and even the CEO looks at the numbers and says why in the hell are we paying this guy X when Sam over here in Romania can do it for less? By the way my company builds the systems that provide Business intelligence on the level that lets CEO's know when things are out of whack on the balance sheet.
We have about 100,000 employees all over the world and most will tell you it is hard working for a company that is consistantly staying sharp on its costs. But when it comes down to hard times and you still have a job you are quite proud of the fact that your company just saved 45 million dollars this year by limiting travel and changing the system used for issuing new employee network passwords. Lots of people kept their jobs because of that savings.
Your response is a prime example of why many of these companies are getting caught in deep trouble. The finance companies all tanking and in big trouble - the reason why they are in trouble is because upper management didn't have the full picture of their risk or better yet knew about it but didn't do much to fix it before it became an issue. Risk / Cost its all the same in the end knowing whats going out vs coming in doesn't matter what your biz is - if your out of balance on whats going out and whats coming in your toast.
I have 15 team members in India - if it were not for them I wouldn't be able to do my job on a cost level that would be acceptable to my company and I would be out of work.
Every penny counts and the larger the company the more important it becomes.
That is just the problem. The UAW workers believe they have a RIGHT to have a big fancy home a couple cars, boat etc etc. I keep going back to Oscar the Delphi fork lift operator. Now the reason I know that is entry level, is because when I left the mailroom at Pacific Telephone after 6 months I went to the warehouse. And ran a forklift all day loading and unloading big vans. That was 1962 and I was making $66.50 per week. I would imagine the UAW worker back then was about double what I made doing similar work. Now Oscar the Delphi worker that filed for bankruptcy. His excuse. The company cut his OT in 2004 by $16k. He was only making $87,000 after the cut and could not afford the $469k worth of debt. I don't know how much of that was his home from the article. I would hope he did not owe more than $69k in auto loans. Say he owed $400k on his home. I would be willing to bet a $400k home in Michigan would be about a $1.5 million in San Diego. Way out of my league. You want to hear what Oscar says about his problems.
Gray has been losing overtime. His gross pay was cut $16,000 one year, sliding to $87,000, and may dip again because Delphi is considering a Chapter 11 filing.
"You count on something your whole life and then it gets jerked around," Gray said.
Oscar Gray was just one of 46,925 Michigan bankruptcies in 2005.
It sounds to me like a lot of UAW workers feel they are entitled to outrageous wages no matter what the business is doing. Oscar knew that GM was bleeding red ink. Yet he continued to spend like a drunk sailor. Instead of going home when the OT was getting cut and telling his wife we got to cut back, he probably just used the old CC more to make up for lost OT.
And these are the people that want US to bail them out.
Let's face it, NOBODY in the US could compete, even at MIN. WAGE, with 3rd world employees at 3rd world wages.
With a global company, Asians should take care of Asians, Euros, Euros, and we take care of US.
My US based and owned company wouldn't employ nearly as many Americans as we do if we didn't have a global business. To compete with our competitors who are also global and in other countries we need the same global work force.
This is the part people in the US do not understand. You no longer live in the new world sheltered by miles of ocean. You live on earth and yes like it or not you are competeing with everyone. So to take care of Americans - we need to come up with ways to ensure that "Americans" are the leaders in whatever happens to be the top jobs and products. Energy - and basic resources are going to be hot items in the next 30 years. If India is producing more Engineers than the US chances are we will be on the short end of the stick when it comes to great jobs and products.
I think American's have become a little lazy for good reason we've had it good for a long time, but guess what the writing is on the wall and its time to play hard ball again.
I think these examples are great examples of saving money. However, I don't think it's our (USA's) problem to provide work for people in other countries when we have people here out of work, and want to work!!!
I may be oversimplifying, but did you think you would have been out of work LESS than 9-12 months if not for people in other countries???
As I recall from economics, it was darn near impossible to ruin a bank. Imagine bankrupting a bank? So, they stand corrected. Reagan era deregulation has banks acting like brokerage houses and we have to pay for the sins of deregulation. The auto industry is but a ripple, which in turn is felt by the UAW. Then, as we can and will see, this is like an STD which keeps giving and giving. So tell us about your 401K and the insight you gained from economic 101? Supply side and or trickle down, enjoy the golden shower.
Gary, I doubt they made double you back then. "Oscar" made $87K with some OT (the article said he could see it cut more). Today, a Verizon Material handler (that's what they're called now) makes around $1200/wk, which is $62,400 w/ no OT.
That's one example. How many UAW employees owe say $175K on a $250K house, have 1 car payment on a Chevy, a used $7500 boat, and are living well w/in their means. Probably 50 for every Oscar.
Actually we would have gone out of business back in 90's if thats the case.
It's not about who wants to work its about being competitive - you can't be competitive if your product costs 5 times more than your competitors.
You don't buy Geico car insurance because they tell you they only employ Americans- you buy it because they just gave you a policy thats $100 cheaper than everyone else.
Seriously people find me one person that says they'll pay more money for the same exact product selling for less just because the company only has American's running it.
You better also be concern about sales. If you have no customers and or less customers, your looking at those employees as a cost. Consumer staples are the customary investments during recession/depression and even then they just seek to stay afloat in wait for better times. The UAW/GM are in the auto business and housing/auto industries are the first to go into hence, the first to come out of recession/depression. Look for this sign prior to investing/expanding.
I took me years with a college degree to make over 80K. Shoot my engineer buddy said he didn't make much more than the bumper dudes. You wonder why American Auto isn't competitive?
My current car has 150,000 miles on it - assembled in Indiana - non Domestic company. There wasn't a 4dr built that could match it on price and value. Guess what those people in Indiana that built my car were not UAW either. They made less than UAW people - shoot they made less than a 4 yr college grad.
All comes back to cost - and competitive products.
Caterpillar likely lured to Seguin by cheaper labor
And it looks like the lug nut guys get laid off, not pay cuts:
More Cuts at Caterpillar
If your a lug nut guy now - you should have been sorting out a plan on what to do next before the guy in China figured out how to spin the lug nuts on faster and cheaper than you.
You think the MBA - harvard people are just going to work every day collecting a paycheck and not thinking about their next move so they don't get replaced or phased out? Hell no!!
I'll tell you the one and single thing that makes the MBA brain iack's different from the rest of us. They never stop thinking about their next idea or job/skill.
If your bolting bumpers on cars for 25 years it can be brain numbing work and understandable why you never moved to something else but the guy in Korea or Mexico isn't going to give a hoot, he has a job! and one that pays better than planting rice.
In addition to a drop in overtime pay, annual cash bonuses paid by Detroit automakers to factory workers have declined in recent years as profits have decreased or disappeared. At Ford, where bonuses averaged $6,700 as recently as 2000, profit-sharing payouts averaged $600 for 2004.
Lavish lifestyles persist
Despite the loss of time-and-a-half pay, some Michigan autoworkers continue to live large.
Many bankrupt autoworkers own two homes -- one is usually up north -- which means multiple mortgages. Most have two or more cars and sometimes a boat or snowmobile payment, according to information culled from cases filed by autoworkers in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in the Eastern District of Michigan.
The Detroit News reviewed 88 Chapter 7 and Chapter 13 bankruptcy cases filed by UAW Legal Services in the past six months. Of those, 23 were active autoworkers who didn't appear to have catastrophic medical bills based on the creditors listed.
Many broke autoworkers have tens of thousands of dollars worth of credit card debt. Target, Best Buy and Home Depot are common creditors seeking payment.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0509/18/A01-318432.htm
There is more to this story:
One assembly line worker at GM's Pontiac truck plant said he saw his annual income drop by $20,000 -- not an uncommon occurrence -- last year as demand for full-size pickups softened. "Overtime was always there, man. Maybe it would go away for a month or so, but it would always come back," said the autoworker.
When the 15-year GM veteran's overtime was cut early last year, the autoworker ran up $65,000 in credit card debt to pay for items such as his monthly satellite dish subscription. He took out cash advances to meet his mortgage payment for his Leelanau County cottage and his payments on two pickups. His overtime never came back, and in February, he filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy. He's $320,000 in debt.
Why should the rest of US bail these people out? The UAW is the only reason they are throwing money at GM.
Word is that these aren't even close and or in the same league as American engineers. They claim auto mechanics as engineers. Then there is the fact that they send folks here for their education. Even Dr Toyoda was educated here in the states.
Thinking that American's are all that and that no one can do better is what got us in our current spot to start with. By the way statistically per college programs this is a very big issue that has lots of people concerned including our GOV.
Yes they would......IF you or your competitors weren't allowed to hire non-Americans to do business here. I assume that your company doen't sell a product (like a car or sneakers) but a service that uses proprietary info. and intellect. There are tarrifs on products, but no tarrif on intellect.
If your company hires all Americans today and charged $100 for your service, and then outsourced 35% of it's work overseas, I doubt that price would drop. Your company would pocket the extra dough, much like Nike does w/ their sneakers.
I do agree that we have to do a better job encouraging our children to enter challenging fields like engineering and such, but if they do, all that does is exacerbate the problem. MORE qualified people for the same # of jobs.
We should be worried about ourselves first, them second. Out of contry hires (for work here) should be the last one in and first ones to go.
If we only sold to US companies and only had US employees we would be small and non competitive on a global scale and considering that the US is a very small market compared to Say China - Japan - and Europe we would not be a industry leader would we? How would my company be compeitive in China when our competitors have cheaper labor than our US only employees?
The concept of a global company and product regardless of what product it is- tends to be hard for many people to understand.
During the period when the US dollar was tanking my company would have had to lay off thousands of US workers if we were not a leader in our product in overseas markets. But we were so we actually hired Americans when many "American" companies were in a world of hurt.
We can't be a leader in overseas markets with out our American skill set or our cheaper labor skill set in say India. It's not an either or choice - you either have a competitive product with a combination of talents for the right cost or you don't. Global companies can't do that if they are told who they can and can't employ.
Check again - China owns more of the US debt than any other country. Why on earth would you not want American companies doing all they could to be competitive in China selling to China based companies?
That can't happen if you tell an American company they can only employ Americans. If you tell China sorry you can sell your products to Americans unless you only employ Americans - China will be more than happy to say Oh well in that case - that American Company that Employs thousands of Americans - can't sell their product here either. All of a sudden my company looses a huge market yet our global competitors still can sell in China. My company eventually can't compete with the competitors given they have more income and resources to develop better products and my "American" company goes out of business no more Americans employed by my company.
ROFL. Best joke of the day.
According to the article he was making $87k when he filed for bankruptcy. He had lost $16k in OT the prior year. So he was making $103k per year operating a fork lift. Now I don't have a problem with him making that much or more. Same with the Verizon warehouseman that makes $1200 per week. That is supply and demand. Problem is Delphi and GM were going broke and had to cut wages. Now you tell me where a UAW forklift operator is going to make $103k to maintain his opulent lifestyle when GM goes broke? When I did that job for $66.50 per week that was just a bit over minimum wage. I would bet that most people around here hiring someone to work in a warehouse driving a forklift is not going to pay over about $12 per hour right today. So that would be the going rate. If the company is union and someone else comes in to compete that is not. Guess who is going out of business. It is competition Right here in America that is going to kill these high paid UAW jobs.
How many UAW employees owe say $175K on a $250K house, have 1 car payment on a Chevy, a used $7500 boat, and are living well w/in their means. Probably 50 for every Oscar.
I am sure you are right. And when they get cut from $30 per hour to $20 per hour they will survive.
I just find it unconscionable that an 18 yr old could spend upwards of $175-200k for a college education (BS or MS), only to be cut off at the knees because we have this unknown need to "import" intellect via telecommunications, thus allowing us to pay these outsourced employees pennies on the dollar, leaving our kids (and likely our gov't) w/ 6 figure tuition bills.
The people I have on my team who are based in India most of them are former call center people who have moved up to roles that still are not roles a College grad in the US would do.
Find me a college grad in the US who feels like outsourced jobs is why they don't have a job and I can give you 100 reasons they don't have a job after 10 minutes talking with them.
I met a CEO on a flight two weeks ago. We talked the whole flight - the landing actually interupted our discussion. He was from Sweden living in the US. His company was based in Sweden. I asked him if he had American employees. He said yes many though he said the only American employees he hires are ones with international experience given they travel just as much as all of his other non American employees.
Outsourcing does change the job options but thats why we go to college. It gives us a wider range of options and teaches or should teach one to think of all the angles.
A family member worked for a call center he lost his job when it was moved to India. So guess what he found a job teaching india call center trainees how to talk with American customers.
He found a job working for a German Company - guess what they pay him in Euro. He bought a house on the money he made when the Euro was stronger than the Dollar. He outsourced him self to another country - two can play that game.
Absolutely they will. All the more why I think that "Oscar" is a bad example. There are nitwits all over trying to live off the OT. It's foolish.
".....When I did that job for $66.50 per week that was just a bit over minimum wage."
IIRC, you said you had 6 mo. in the company?? If so, the Verizon employee at the same pay rate would be at about $10/ hr. It's just that at top pay, it would be $1200.
".....I would bet that most people around here hiring someone to work in a warehouse driving a forklift is not going to pay over about $12 per hour right today."
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Whether working in a warehouse, or a yard, operating a forklift takes a lot of responsibility and skill. I wouldn't be surprised if you needed a heavy equiptment operator's license in some cases. I know I wouldn't want to have to answer why my coworker was dead under a pallet full of stock that wasn't loaded properly on the pallet before I picked it up.
If those folks down in Bentonville Arkansas don't use you as a supplier. Its all over!
One of Wal-Mart’s many idiosyncrasies is that it bases itself not in New York City, Chicago or some other center of commerce but here in Bentonville, Arkansas, population 19,730, one of the least accessible places in the United States. Everybody who does business with Wal-Mart—which seems to be everybody—sooner or later has to make the pilgrimage, which generally involves at least one plane change and a night in a stripmall motel.
The most striking thing about present-day Bentonville is the invisibility of minorities. The town, it’s hard not to notice, is whiter than a 1950s sitcom.
"Buyers at other companies always want to be wined and dined. They want a weekend at this golf resort or tickets to this ball game, " he says. "Wal-Mart says, `We don't need any of that crap. Just give us the lowest price you can sustain every day.' You cant buy a cup of coffee for a Wal-Mart buyer, and they take that [non-permissible content removed] seriously."
In the men's department of the Bentonville Wal-Mart I find Bugle Boy shorts from China, Wrangler soccer shorts from Bangladesh, Puritan sleep sets from El Salvador and golf shirts from Israel, all at incredibly attractive prices. There are Simply Basic shorts from Mexico and Simply Basic golf shirts from Honduras, Hanes boxers from the Dominican Republic, Snoopy running shorts from Cambodia, Racing Champion jackets from Macao and a Team Starter Arkansas Hogs T-shirt with a label that, hanging in a Wal-Mart in Bentonville, Arkansas, makes my head swim: HECHO EN PAKISTAN.
Wal-Mart buyers, with the power to make or break a brand, are royalty to consumer-products companies, but most qualify for the job only after serving six months on the floor of a store.
What I am hoping is that every Wal-mart manager be dragged into the backwoods of Bentonville, Arkansas and given the full-on “Deliverance” experience.
Maybe at Harvard or Yale, but a bachelor's degree at most state schools can be had for around $50k, that includes room and board. Go to a local community college and it's probably half the cost of a large state university.
Grad school is definitely expensive and that's where a lot of people really rack up the school expenses.
Actually, with their endowments, if you are smart enough to get in, you may pay less than half their $40k tuition.
Nevertheless, the rate of return on that investment should be good, and not jeopardized by cut rate, 3 rd world wages.
Its amazing how few CEO's have MBA's. Besides, its no secret they are still living on the ill-gotten gains. However, they will need to look for their next mark, as soon as they blow and plunder the bail out booty.
Nevertheless, the rate of return on that investment should be good, and not jeopardized by cut rate, 3 rd world wages.
True. Of course, who know how much of the endowments are left.
I did not work with union guys myself, but I know those who did and they all say it's generally pure nightmare from standpoint of job being done in the same century, or from of "it's not my job" attitude. I think that's what really killed UAW and other unions in court of public opinion and that's why they have such hard time to get any real sympathy.
I must also say that a lot of people have misconception about who "middle class" really is. As much as pains me to say, IMHO a floor sweeper, or lug installer are not middle class. An experienced and skilled auto mechanic (not every guy in a shop, just ones who can actually do something on your engine or tranny), a carpenter or iron worker (not any one, just those who could take drawings and actually build forms or lay rebar on their own), those guys I could call middle class. Pretty much top 20-25% of their trades. I know everybody thinks they are top 25%, but that doesn't make them so. The rest could aspire to be some day, maybe - many will not get there.
To belong in the middle your have to be better in something than all other bunch of people, through education, qualifications, or experience, skills, abilities. Something that makes you more desirable than bunch of other guys - perhaps even more than desired, necessary to do a given job. It's simple, in order to be in the middle, somebody has to be below. Calling yourself middle class doesn't make you such.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
And CAT is not asking for "loan", its dividend is still intact, but the stock price did take a 50% cut from its highs so nobody is getting fat. Yes it hurts, but it hurts everybody, but in exchange there are no questions their survival, at least not for forseable future. Things could get worse, but chances are they'll get better before.
On the other hand GM lugnut guy has his contract and employment guarantees that may soon be worth less than the paper it's written on. Unless he of course bands together with Gettelfinger, Wagoner, Barney Frank and new Mr. President and they all decide that Mr. lugnut installer's lifestyle is too important. Then next year Mr. Dino will get his annual tax bill with a few additional surcharges, such contrbutions to Mr. Lugnut boat payment, Mr. Wagoner's jet fund, Mr. Frank's reelection committee, etc. - that's on top of already paid AIG/Fannie/Freddie/Citi et al that Mr. Dino grudgingly is already paying. IF not direct bill, there will be other ways of "compelling" Mr. Dino - they'll all find a way. :mad:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
That's what many scientists and politicians are suggesting in the wake of an October report by the highly regarded National Academies. Its numbers are startling: China adds 600,000 new engineers a year; the US, only 70,000. Even India, with 350,000 new engineers a year, is outdoing the US, the study suggests.
But that gloomy assessment depends on how one defines engineers: Those with at least four years of college training? Or do their ranks include two-year graduates of technical schools and even, in China's case, auto mechanics?i>
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1220/p01s01-ussc.html
LOL, well in that case, I should be considered an engineer, I often "Rube Goldberg" stuff around the house and in the garage
That happens to Union and non-union alike. A fellow was killed on the jobsite we were installing phones in. A big diesel engine was being lifted and it slid off the forks and killed the guy on the ground. The operator had lots of experience and was in the 302 Operating Engineers Union. My boss at Pac Tel was promoted after he drove the forklift off the dock. He was too dangerous to be allowed to operate. When I worked AT&T Alascom the warehousemen were only $2 per hour under the Technicians. I can tell you it was always a bone of contention at contract time. They were considered the only REAL Teamsters. They rode on our shirt tails.
It all gets back to one thing. If GM and Chrysler were making money no one would give a rip how much the UAW workers make. They are broke and want US to support their lifestyle. I don't think you are going to find many Americans that would vote for a bailout for the auto industry. And they feel the UAW are a part of that failure to compete.
That's when one should realize the absurdity of the economic model being embraced. By that logic, why not go into the kindergarten, and dumb down all the kids who can count, so they don't grow up to be competition to existing workers?
Economy is not about doling out jobs by god-like government officials. Economy is about productivity. Living standard is dependent on productivity. Education leading to productive skills is a good thing: as the workers then become more productive. The nutjobber who has been turning lugnuts for 25 years probably shouldn't expect his living standard improving much unless he is turning much more lugnuts each hour than he did 25 years ago. If everyone sticks to his or her job for 25 years, the improvement in living standard would be exactly zero for 25 years. Would you like that? For one thing, you wouldn't be typing on a computer connected to the internet; interneted computer did not exist back then, for the average consumer anyway. Someone had to be laid off from some other jobs to make masses of internet-connected computers available; many someone's, as numerous unproductive industries and unproductive companies went out of business, releasing their employees for more productive companies and industries.
Price is not determined by production cost. Price is determined by supply and demand. If you think a company outsourcing is pocketting all the gain from outsourcing, then you need to put together a copycat company doing the same thing, hopefully even doing better, to get a slice of the pie. Additional companies engaged in oursourcing competing for consumer dollar are what will make outsourcing savings accrue to consumers. That means, the barrier to outsourcing should be lowered, in order to promote competition among outsourcers. Beaureacrats regulating trade would only benefit incumbent big companies at the expense of consumers, by reducing competition.
The purpose of a job is to get income to buy things (otherwise, you can come work for me for no pay, if you are more interested in having a job than having a pay). The pay, money itself is meaningless without purchasing power. In other words, the purpose of doing a job is to be able to get goods and services in return for your own labor output. Banning outsourcing, banning automation, banning people smarter than yourself and banning people who work harder than yourself will inevitably lead to higher prices and less choices for your own "money" from the job, thereby incrementally doing away the reason for having a job to begin with; on top of that, the bureaucrats necessary to enforce the various bans will not be producing anything, and will have to be supported by workers like yourself.
Perhaps the answer should be less expensive education? Sure, many cab drivers in 1905 had a big chunk of sunken capital in their horse-drawn cabs, but that's not a good reason to ban cars. If knowledgeable workers are a plus (and they are), then importing knowledge workers without having to spend the resources to pay for their entire education is a huge gain for the domestic economy.
It is the job of the student and his/her parents to make sure that they money they put into education is well invested. One can spend $100K+ spending four years studying small scale beer making or a single species of spider; doesn't mean there should be a guaranteed job after graduation for either the party animal or the bookworm.
Yes, I agree, college education should be less expensive. The credit crunch can do wonders in shrinking the higher-ed price bubble, so long as the government stay out of it instead of thinking up more subsidies to drive up price.