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I notice when he's asked a direct question he brings up Congress, bankers, history, philosophy, phases of the moon, economic theories, political theories, why everybody else are a bunch of crooks, etc., without answering the question in regards to the UAW. As if multiple wrongs of others make the UAW right.
I am gladly paying $22,000.-- for my Honda Element!!! It is solid as a tank and will easily go 300,000 miles. After a nightmare experience with a ford and a gm product I have 4 HONDAs decorating my driveway, and all are nothing but maintenance and driving!!!! In '97 I wanted to give the domestic industry a shot at it with a lincoln continental. This is (was) the worst POS ever hanging around my property! When I asked ford to stand straight for their flag ship brand, I was told to f... off! NEVER again will a ford product be seen in my driveway!!!
BTW: I could easily buy a matched set of MBZs or BMWs, but I am of the opinion that Honda is the best value for the $$$$ spent! ...my opinion, of course!
A similar pattern of authoritarian control and stubbornness marked Ford's attitude toward his workers. The $5 day that brought him so much attention in 1914 carried with it, for workers, the price of often overbearing paternalism. It was, moreover, no guarantee for the future; in 1929 Ford instituted a $7 day, but in 1932, as part of the fiscal stringency imposed by falling sales and the Great Depression, that was cut to $4, below prevailing industry wages. Ford freely employed company police, labour spies, and violence in a protracted effort to prevent unionization and continued to do so even after General Motors and Chrysler had come to terms with the United Automobile Workers. When the UAW finally succeeded in organizing Ford workers in 1941, he considered shutting down before he was persuaded to sign a union contract.
http://www.forbes.com/2008/02/29/resale-value-autos-cars-forbeslife_cx_jm_0229re- sale.html
As if multiple wrongs of others make the UAW right.
The UAW is its membership and are not a for profit organization. They/we protect the rights of workers. Point is that the UAW is its membership and not some monster from another planet.
About the Texas AFL-CIO
The Texas AFL-CIO is a state federation of labor unions representing 220,000 members in Texas. We advocate for working people -- union and non-union alike -- in the political and legislative arenas. We provide support for unions in organizing new members and we coordinate a variety of community service, volunteer and educational programs.
Delegates at the Texas AFL-CIO Constitutional Convention govern the state federation. The policies set forth at our conventions are carried out by the officers of the Texas AFL-CIO – currently, President Becky Moeller, Secretary-Treasurer Paul Brown and a 56-member Executive Board. The Texas AFL-CIO’s Committee on Political Education (COPE) makes statewide political endorsements at its conventions in January of even years.
The Texas AFL-CIO works closely with Central Labor Councils (CLCs) around the state. The councils are part of the national AFL-CIO. The Texas AFL-CIO also works closely with constituency groups representing Hispanics, African-Americans, Asian-Americans, women and retirees affiliated with organized labor. The federation also works with a variety of allies, including members of Working America, which allows non-union members to become active in the labor movement.
All AFL-CIO unions in Texas pay per capita dues to their national organizations, which in turn pay per capita dues to the national AFL-CIO. But affiliation with the Texas AFL-CIO and other state federations is voluntary.
Membership tends to fluctuate within a relatively narrow range, mirroring the economy. Texas AFL-CIO membership was slightly more than 150,000 at the time of the merger between the AFL and CIO in the mid-1950s. It peaked at more than 290,000 at the start of the Reagan presidency in 1981, then dropped dramatically during the oil bust of the 1980s. In 1990, membership was 203,400; in 1995, it was 197,462.
These figures tell only part of the story. Texas has substantial union membership that does not affiliate or pay dues to the Texas AFL-CIO. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says that if you add non-affiliates, about 500,000 union members work in Texas. In addition, more than 100,000 more workers are covered by collective bargaining agreements but decline to pay for their union representation in this “right-to-work-for-less” state; nevertheless, unions are obligated by law to represent those workers in contract talks and grievance procedures.
Texas has more than 1,300 local unions. The largest Texas AFL-CIO affiliates in the state (memberships above 5,000) are the Communications Workers of America, Texas AFT, American Federation of Government Employees, United Steel Workers, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Fire Fighters, United Auto Workers, Transport Workers Union, International Association of Machinists and United Transportation Union.
Generally speaking, public employee unions have experienced the strongest growth in recent years, but building and construction trades unions and some service unions remain engaged in promising organizing campaigns. The numbers reflect the national shift toward a service and information economy and the growing importance of public employee unions. Besides AFSCME and AFGE, the CWA numbers include the Texas State Employees Union. Some medical professionals, including podiatrists, doctors and nurses, have joined unions. Organizers continue to see health care and low-wage professions like hotel workers as a major target; high tech industry remains on the horizon. Recent changes in organized labor’s policy toward immigrant workers have made low-wage “day workers” and others at the bottom of the economic rung a prime target for organizing.
As for geography, we count our members in Central Labor Councils, which are sometimes not neatly located in one city. The ones with 5,000 or more members include: Austin, Coastal Bend, Dallas, El Paso, Galveston, Harris County, Sabine Area, San Antonio, Smith County, and Tarrant County.
Some of the highlights of our programs include:
Legislation and Politics – We support legislation that benefits union families and the working public at large. We work diligently to defeat harmful legislation, a key pursuit in an era when labor’s friends have not won high office in Texas. We also support political candidates who we perceive will help our cause. Political endorsements are made through our Committee on Political Education. Legislative policies are established through the delegates to our conventions, the United Labor Legislative Committee and our Executive Board. All the governing bodies are representative of our membership. Among labor’s achievements in recent legislative sessions: pay raises for teachers; an electric deregulation bill with pro-worker provisions; a state holiday honoring UFW founder Cesar Chavez; improvements in the workers’ compensation system, a statewide public school employee health care plan, a pay raise for state employees, an increase in the state minimum wage, a hate crimes bill and new bargaining rights for public employees.
Community Services/Volunteers – This department helps working people who are on strike, victimized by disasters or otherwise in need of assistance. Affiliated programs help adults learn to read or offer them guidance if they abuse drugs or alcohol. Our volunteers are a key to maintaining good community relations, helping not only when we promote a political cause, but when we are simply trying to help our neighbors. The Texas AFL-CIO also helps direct the operations of the Workers Assistance Program, a grant-funded, nationally recognized organization that helps workers navigate difficulties in their lives.
Human Relations – This department works on mobilization of working people around the state, organizing actions and maintaining grass-roots contact with a statewide network of activists. The Human Relations department also oversees the Texas AFL-CIO web site, at www.texasaflcio.org.
opeiu298/afl-cio
Ford announced his $5-per-day program on January 5, 1914. The revolutionary program called for a raise in minimum daily pay from $2.34 to $5 for qualifying workers. It also set a new, reduced workweek, although the details vary in different accounts. Ford and Crowther in 1922 described it as six 8-hour days, giving a 48-hour week, while in 1926 they described it as five 8-hour days, giving a 40-hour week. (Apparently the program started with Saturdays as workdays and sometime later made them days off.) Ford says that with this voluntary change, labor turnover in his plants went from huge to so small that he stopped bothering to measure it.
When Ford started the 40-hour work week and a minimum wage he was criticized by other industrialists and by Wall Street. He proved, however, that paying people more would enable Ford workers to afford the cars they were producing and be good for the economy. Ford explained the change in part of the "Wages" chapter of My Life and Work.[18] He labeled the increased compensation as profit-sharing rather than wages.
The wage was offered to employees who had worked at the company for six months or more, and, importantly, conducted their lives in a manner of which Ford's "Social Department" approved. They frowned on heavy drinking, gambling, and what we today would call "deadbeat dads". The Social Department used 50 investigators, plus support staff, to maintain employee standards; a large percentage of workers were able to qualify for this "profit-sharing."
It is no secret that Ford did not think that Unions were good for the country. It turns out he was absolutely correct. His vision of the future UAW was spot on.
Ford was adamantly against labor unions. He explained his views on unions in Chapter 18 of My Life and Work. He thought they were too heavily influenced by some leaders who, despite their ostensible good motives, would end up doing more harm than good for workers. Most wanted to restrict productivity as a means to foster employment, but Ford saw this as self-defeating because, in his view, productivity was necessary for any economic prosperity to exist.
Henry Ford cutting wages in the Depression is very much a parallel to our current situation. Will the UAW give in, or will one or more of the D3 go out of business. I see the ball in the UAW court. If not for the UAW, the D3 could have corrected the imbalance several years ago and not find themselves facing bankruptcy.
Communications – The Texas AFL-CIO publishes a daily e-mail newsletter that is available to union members, retirees and journalists. To subscribe, send name, e-mail address and union or media affiliation to ed@texasaflcio.org. A monthly newspaper contains news on labor events around the state. The federation also issues special publications to promote our cause. As part of our public relations program, we maintain relationships with reporters throughout the state, holding news conferences and interviews to get our points across. The public relations department also helps individual unions with letters to the editor, editorials and honing of messages.
Education and Research – The Texas AFL-CIO prepares and conducts educational programs for affiliates and their members. Topics have included union organizing, labor law, political organizing, workers’ compensation, steward training, grievances and arbitration, communications, the Americans With Disabilities Act and job training. On request, we will address other topics as warranted. The legal workshop offers college course credit as part of the National Labor College at the AFL-CIO. The Education Department also administers an annual scholarship program in which at least 20 (closer to 30 in recent years) graduating high school seniors who are children of union members receive $1,000 scholarships.
Legal Counsel – The Texas AFL-CIO retains an outstanding law firm -- Provost Umphrey LLP, headed by Walter Umphrey -- that provides full-time support and information on labor laws, government regulations, campaign and lobbying laws and other topics that unions face every day. The Texas AFL-CIO legal director addresses legal issues for unions across the state and is a respected lobbyist on behalf of working people.
opeiu298/afl-cio
The $5 day that brought him so much attention in 1914 carried with it, for workers, the price of often overbearing paternalism. It was, moreover, no guarantee for the future; in 1929 Ford instituted a $7 day, but in 1932, as part of the fiscal stringency imposed by falling sales and the Great Depression, that was cut to $4, below prevailing industry wages. Ford freely employed company police, labour spies, and violence in a protracted effort to prevent unionization and continued to do so even after General Motors and Chrysler had come to terms with the United Automobile Workers.
Henry Ford was a complex personality. Away from the shop floor he exhibited a variety of enthusiasms and prejudices and, from time to time, startling ignorance. His dictum that "history is more or less bunk" was widely publicized, as was his deficiency in that field revealed during cross-examination in his million-dollar libel suit against the Chicago Tribune in 1919; a Tribune editorial had called him an "ignorant idealist" because of his opposition to U.S. involvement in World War I, and while the jury found for Ford it awarded him only six cents. One of Ford's most publicized acts was his chartering of an ocean liner to conduct himself and a party of pacifists to Europe in November 1915 in an attempt to end the war by means of "continuous mediation." The so-called Peace Ship episode was widely ridiculed. In 1918, with the support of Pres. Woodrow Wilson, Ford ran for a U.S. Senate seat from Michigan. He was narrowly defeated after a campaign of personal attacks by his opponent.
In 1918 Ford bought a newspaper, The Dearborn Independent, and in it published a series of scurrilous attacks on the "International Jew," a mythical figure he blamed for financing war; in 1927 he formally retracted his attacks and sold the paper.
Does the TX AFL-CIO have ANYTHING to do with the current crisis in the auto industry? Or just a means of taking up a lot of space? At least with Rocky we get his UAW biased opinions most of the time. Not a cut and paste of irrelevant drivel.
What prevailing wage? There was 25% unemployment. I would think a job paying anything would beat being unemployed at that time. It comes back to the current crisis. Does the UAW want to preserve jobs or stick by their contracts until all lose out?
As far as Ford's views on WW1 & WW2, there are many that share those views. FDR purposely got us into WW2 as a means of ending the depression. I am sure Fintail is better equipped to argue that subject.
Its called the American dream. Envy is what the corporate owned media is counting on. They seek to foster public opinion in order to bring in their agenda. If you get yourself a union and quit worrying about what others are getting, you would be ahead. One only need to recall that during hard time, such as now, unions gather momentum. If you think that the big business aristocracy has your best interests in their heart, think again, they have no interest in your well being. After the masses began to read, no thanks to the big business aristocracy, they came up with other tools to control public opinion. Owning the mass media and public relations have served them well.
the UAW needs a dose of reality, and now is the time
Thats what they told the folks in the Carolina's as they shipped their jobs overseas. Then they get two transplants, to fill the void, of hundreds of thousands of jobs, with a couple of thousand jobs. Then they have the gall to blame illegal immigration as the evil behind their unemployment. The fact is that less than 2% of the states population is Hispanic and now they have run out of unemployment benefits to those who have and are losing employment. Either their governor is that stupid or he is in on it. Faced with the dose of reality that you claim the UAW needs. How could so many be so foolish? Lets see how they voted this past election? Do you think they feel they were hoodwinked?
Absolutely, an injury to one is an injury/insult to all. My union brothers and sisters are family. There are so many union folks out there and you try to single out, the UAW, as the evil one's. We look at it as your going after all unions in the grand scheme of things to come.
DD, you have to be a UAW paid infiltrator.
I'm still awaiting my wages.
UAW as it really is. A major cause of the current downfall of GM and Chrysler.
Are we now omitting Ford? Aren't they UAW?
So all of these have a common factor. They are all UAW. Hence, one could, as you have done very well, single out the CEO as the major difference, between the well operated Ford and the poorly operated GM/Chrysler.
If these people really saved 2 years or more, they wouldn't be filing for bankruptcy or keep screaming that they're taking a hard blow due to the new wage.
If these people really saved that much, why are they still declining pay cuts when it's the only way to survive?
You're with UAW, while I have no clue how much you saved but making payments on 3 mortgage is no small issue. This shows that UAW workers are very generously paid. Well paid people yet at the same time most are living a life way beyond their reach. Hence when the turmoil hits them they go bankrupt right away, what happened to their savings?
I'm sorry but I dont think it makes sense.
http://books.google.com/books?id=P84JAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=wage+at+coal+m- - ines+in+1914&source=web&ots=w8GtnswVI2&sig=SdRfeS1IaRfzm5uo4lzGICjfgvQ&hl=en&sa=- - X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA13,M1
The quote you gave showed a fundamental misunderstanding of economics. The dollar value was not constant. Car prices went from $500 in 1929 to $180 in 1932. There was obvious monetary contraction going on. $4 in 1932 could buy more of most stuff than $7 in 1929 . . . just like a gallon of gasoline cost more than $4 a year ago, but only $1.70 now. Because of this kind of monetary fluctuation, wages have to fluctuate with it, or jobs get eliminated because companies can't afford to pay the old bubble peak wages due to consumers unwilling to pay the old bubble peak prices.
Inability to adjust prices down quickly enough is the reason why there is massive unemployment at economic down turns. Unions exacerbate the problem by insisting on labor price inflexibility.
MIT.
In any case, glad you read up on what Gresham's Law is. Don't you see the analogous situation in labor pricing? If we arbitrarily command (by fiat) that all workers shoud be paid the same regardless the productivity of each, the "good ones" who are worth more will exit the system, and the "bad ones" who are worth less than the command price will have an incentive to stay.
In any case, gold standard or any standard is not pre-requisite for Gresham's Law. GL applies any time there is a discrepancy between command value vs. intrinsic value. The pre-1965 90% and pre-1971 40% silver coins have disappeared from the circulation, so have the pre-1982 copper pennies in recent years. Ironicly, this current monetary contraction is so severe that the pre-1982 copper penny's metal value is falling below the command value again in the last few weeks, for the first time in over a decade.
That is a lot of bunk. If that was the case you would not have NLRB elections were 2 or more unions compete for the same workers. I happen to be a victim of just that kind of brotherhood. I signed an IBEW card in 1970. I ended up a Teamster as they slid in and wined and dined enough telco operators to steal the election from the IBEW. I then got involved in the Teamsters and watched the Operating engineers weasel into the Teamster's territory and they both ended up losing the NLRB election. Your simplistic view of Union labor is laughable. After you are affiliated with 3 different Unions over 46 years, get back to me with your Utopian view of Union brotherhood. Why is the UAW into aircraft industry. There are several related Unions representing different aspects of the industry. It is because the UAW is like an octopus, stealing workers anywhere they can. Which Union did the UAW crush to get the black jack dealers in Las Vegas?
Are we now omitting Ford? Aren't they UAW?
I will include them when Ford begs for my tax dollars as the GM & Chrysler along with the UAW. Congress is not worried about the domestic auto industry. They are weighing the value of supporting the UAW. Quite frankly your 400k votes are meaningless.
Its called the American dream"
Dallas, in case you didn't notice it's impossible to become reality, that's why it's called a DREAM.
"Envy is what the corporate owned media is counting on. They seek to foster public opinion in order to bring in their agenda. If you get yourself a union and quit worrying about what others are getting, you would be ahead. "
It's the total opposite. Envy is what UAW is counting on to make strikes and demand more. They'll never quit envying what others are making.
If one gets into the union and quit worrying about what others make then it'll be the end of competition, the end if improvement, which will result in the end of rising quality. They'll never be ahead.
I sure as hell don't want such incompetence in US.
You have been arguing that unions give workers higher wage, haven't you? Then how come they haven't saved a year's cost of living or more after decades under "UAW protection"? "Two years" is part of "a year's cost of living or more." Do I have to explain what "or more" means? Do I have to remind you that you were the one saying we only need to look at one year, when it was asked whether you were so pessimistic about UAW member's employability that they might stay unemployed for the rest of their lives.
Many of you seem to think that we're blaming it all on UAW. No, as I said so many times before both the UAW and the management are responsible for their mess. Now the real problem is the taxpayers who aren't involved are forced to support them by the means of bailout.
Ford still have my support as the only domestic automaker with no bailout in hand, however if the UAW, by any reason ask for government support that'll end my support as well.
The GM bankruptcy (if it comes to being) is but just, one bankruptcy, since they have the "separate entity" status to limit the liability to GM and not to the shareholders assets. Your way ahead of the game. Many UAW represented worker may be living check to check. They may file for bankruptcy and or be foreclosed upon. My thinking is that those will come in the near future and add to the already supply of foreclosures. Not to mention the unemployment rolls.
If these people really saved that much, why are they still declining pay cuts when it's the only way to survive?
Nothing has been proposed to the membership as I see it or to my knowledge. They have yet to vote on any proposal whatsoever.
You're with UAW, while I have no clue how much you saved but making payments on 3 mortgage is no small issue. This shows that UAW workers are very generously paid. Well paid people yet at the same time most are living a life way beyond their reach. Hence when the turmoil hits them they go bankrupt right away, what happened to their savings?
Everyone is not in the same boat as to assets. Then again, if you see the turmoil as an opportunity to buy a home/auto, there has never been a better time. My case is that wise investments prior to the current melt down, put me a favorable position. I'm not alone and many will and have come out to do bottom fishing.
GM is twisting in the breeze, saying it won't make it through year end without help, but the Bush administration, which has been liberal with aid to anyone who can pretend to be remotely connected to the financial system, has been consistently tightfisted about helping anyone who probably didn't vote Republican, such as auto-workers and people who lost their homes (recall various Republican initiatives to scrub people who had lost their homes from voter rolls).
Despite the fact that most voters would find GM workers more deserving than investment bankers (at a minimum, they could not be deemed to have created the mess they are in, or have brought down the entire economy along with them), there is an important issue not getting enough attention: the problems with bankruptcy laws.
These laws will cause others (including many autoworkers) into more bankruptcies. Suppliers and even more will feel the ripple effect. Then the workers of these other companies will in turn file for bankruptcy. When do we say that GM is too big to allow to go under? I feel that this is not the time to play politics and if we do so, it would prolong the current crisis. Not to mention what would have happened if the banks were allowed to liquidate. Lets just see if this so call "orderly bankruptcy" is a possibility? Just how many companies and people does it effect? What are the effects of displacement and dislocation of companies of this size?
Naturally, with the way things go at UAW I seriously doubt any of those new owners will ever agree to the UAW wage standard. If the UAW refuse to negotiate further I dare bet those companies will set the new plants down south where unions have no power.
Another possible outcome is the death of UAW. As more and more leave the UAW membership to get a job the UAW may experience a slow agonizing death.
We're in deep trouble and UAW expect us to help revive the economy. Well, the UAW simply forgets that it has the power to help as well, either they forget or they simply want everyone else to make sacrifices except UAW.
1. The high interest debts will be written down. So the company will be much more viable.
2. If parts of the company does get liquidated, the resources and labor will be freed up for other opportunities.
Does the higher wage fuel this economy and that of other nations? Absolutely and therefore its a good thing.
Then how come they haven't saved a year's cost of living or more after decades under "UAW protection"?
How do you know they haven't? I'm UAW and have more than that saved.
"Two years" is part of "a year's cost of living or more." Do I have to explain what "or more" means?
Or more means that we will be in this more than two years, and if we use your logic that we walk away from our obligations, such as a mortgage, this would never ever end. You, sir, frighten me. Your outlook is that of one which would make things worse and in no time the same banking institutions would be back fro more bail-out money, since they are getting homes back at an alarming rate. So, I see your solutions as problematic at best.
Do I have to remind you that you were the one saying we only need to look at one year, when it was asked whether you were so pessimistic about UAW member's employability that they might stay unemployed for the rest of their lives.
After unemployment runs out, they are excluded from being counted as far as the unemployment rate is concern? Are those who are under employed, such as working for Walmart less than 40 hours, included in the unemployment rate?
Hardships brings the best and worst of them. It shows the world whether they really have what it takes to survive or not. Those who don't will be forced to improve or wither and die.
I believe the death of UAW and other unions will do the same. We will see these if overly spoiled and kool-aided bunch can actually develop themselves and live on without the protection of the union, independent one may say. Those who can't are the ones I refer to as no good, it's by-bye to them. Or at least there's still the infrastructure works for them. :P
People deserve nothing unless they earn it, and I've yet to see UAW do that. Death imo will fix this. I believe this is the only way to make these people competent again, not rising minimum wage (that will spoil them even more).
No, not at all. High nominal wage level is an impediment to economy (that's why businesses have been fleeing high wage areas). High productivity is what lifts both economy and the standard of living. High productivity leads to high wages, not vice versa. If you believe printing paper money alone brings prosperity, you can look to Zimbabwe for counter-example.
"How do you know they haven't? I'm UAW and have more than that saved. "
Then what's to complain about being given a push to find new jobs?
"You, sir, frighten me."
Reality is a pretty frightening place :-) I'm not at all suggesting what homeowners should do, but merely predicting what they would do to take care of their own family. You know what's even more frightening? If and when the government does the ultimate bailout, nationalizing all the big banks, it will be politically infeasible to foreclose, and people will stop paying mortgage altogether . . . regardless whether they can afford it or not. That's just reality . . . as real as if domestic carmakers kept making inferior products, people would buy imports. I'm sure that was a frightening thought to many UAW dreamers a few decades ago, and they chose to ignore that eventuality.
"After unemployment runs out, they are excluded from being counted as far as the unemployment rate is concern? Are those who are under employed, such as working for Walmart less than 40 hours, included in the unemployment rate? "
Are you saying that's all UAW members good for? That no re-organized carmaker or new carmaker or any maker of anything else would ever hire an ex-UAW member?
While I agree that everyone is different in assets, it simply means they need to manage those savings based on their different needs. Or they simply need to save even more.
Say a UAW worker makes the $28/hr wage, but is married with 3 kids. He saved just as much as the next UAW guy, but the next guy is married with no kids at all. Crisis hits, and UAW guy#1 drowns in debt, while #2 still survive. Is that our problem? Do we need to simpathize with them? Hell no. In this example, if you can't afford having kids then DON'T.
They're adults, they chose their lifestyle and now reap what they sow. Simply put, the lesson is if you can't keep up don't even step up. Sensibilities seem to fly out the window as too many people choose to live a dream. And then reality hits..... :sick:
1. The high interest debts will be written down. So the company will be much more viable.
2. If parts of the company does get liquidated, the resources and labor will be freed up for other opportunities.
Those employees were "demanding" too much for jobs that are not "worth" the cost? Who determiness what the "worth" is? Consumers. What it boils down to is that consumers want autos cheap and they don't really give a crap what the standard of living is for the people who make them.
As a society, we have decided there is little we can do to get consumers to pay more on behalf of the employees who produce their goods. But we also recognize that we cannot have a functioning and civil society in which auto workers get paid only what unfettered market forces will deliver to them. So we let them unionize, which is their way of extracting a bigger share of the economic pie than they would otherwise be able to extract.
You can be offended by this notion, but unions are hardly the only devices by which workforce participants battle for bigger slices of pie than they would reap in a perfectly efficient labor market. CEOs achieve the same thing by way of the disgraceful corporate governance practices we use. Hedge fund managers basically sucker people into paying them on an absurd compensation scheme. These people also demanded way too much for jobs that are not worth the cost. Yet we are told we are not supposed to begrudge them their wealth because they earned it in the free market. We are supposed to ignore the fact that that market was not really free. Meanwhile you would have us be enraged at the union workers who are basically doing just the same thing, but coming out of it with far less wealth, and whereas the CEO deserves his deal with the golden parachute, the union worker is screwing us all over?
You say unions started for a good reason. What was that reason? Was it not that labor was unable to achieve acceptable living standards when it was every man for himself? Is that not true today? Looks to me like it is.
And look at what the result of that has been over decades: households went from one earner to two earners to two earners plus borrowing on their credit cards and taking out subprime mortgages in order to maintain a reasonable standard of living. Our society let them borrow because we wanted them to spend so that someone else somewhere else in the economy could make money. We know that the net result of that was an increasing share of that money ended up in the hands of the very wealthy. Now the debtors are saying, guess what, you won't let us extract enough wages out of the economy to make a living, so f- you, we are not going to pay our mortgage and our credit card bills.
Banning the unions won't solve the underlying problem, which is basically income inequality has gotten out of hand and it can no longer be masked by letting people borrow to sustain their standard of living.
I don't know what the answer is. There are too many auto workers and their wages are indeed too high to be competitive. But those people have to be allowed to extract a living out of our economy, do they not? If someone follows the rules and works hard, shouldn't they be able to have a reasonable standard of living in the richest country that has every existed on the planet?
I have always been a believer in free market and the invisible hand and low taxes and all the rest. But now I look at what is happening in the economy, and I contemplate the reallocation of resources that is going to have to take place in the coming recession, and I see some problems that look very intractable for the free market to solve on its own, unless we as a society are willing to just allow the least skilled among us to live in poverty and squalor as they compete with one another for the crumbs we are willing to throw to them to make our cars and other stuff for us, and I just don't think that's the kind of country we want to be, nor is it sustainable in a free nation.
Regards,
OW
Kids or no kids, some folks just live beyond their means. They fail to save for any reason. These folks will be in dire straits even if GM remains solvent. There are many folks who are employed and just don't think about the future. I, myself, can't see why they don't think as I do. We should acknowledge that good hard working people have no ability to manage money and are forced to seek protection under bankruptcy. Having seen this first hand, I have no solution, other than putting them on a budget as the bankruptcy court/trustee does. Hence, their right to self determination ends. However, this is not mutually exclusive to UAW workers. Many find themselves in poor financial condition, from all walks of life. Why ever did the banks and credit card companies ever lure these folks into borrowing? There is always going to be some bad debt in any economy and its just taken into account. That and the fact that interest rates factor in a certain percentage of bad debt within an economy. We failed to factor in the current enigma or at least its size and we find this nation in very hot water.
Prudent or not prudent we will all suffer from miscalculations of few. As the inventory of homes increases, and interest rates as low as possible, price is what has to go down to lure buyers. So, the value of your home and mine decline to the point that price meets demand.
Regards,
OW
The UAW is its membership and are not a for profit organization. They/we protect the rights of workers. Point is that the UAW is its membership and not some monster from another planet.
#1 -C11 is NOT going under...it's coming out from under.
#2 - The UAW will die a hard death...as a membership organization. Watch and see.
Regards,
OW
Only if you had a JOB. This leads to the question of the entire society reducing its wages. Only because half of the pay could buy us just as much. FORGET it this is no race to the bottom and we don't need to compete with obscene wages of the third world. Please, explain to these folks that they would be as well off if they had their wages slashed in half. Did the banks reduce mortgage/car payments in half also? Maybe, we should pay the bank interest to hold our money?
The transplants build plants and hire non-union because it is financially prudent for them to serve this market.
Say B-Bye to your Union Fellowship.
Regards,
OW
Old banks with idiots will fail and go away. New banks will take over the mess. Relax.
Regards,
OW
Is that the school which allows freshmen to not count their grades into GPA? does MIT stand for Made In Taiwan? Does a GED from MIT count as more than a GED from another institution?
glad you read up on what Gresham's Law is.
Psst, I didn't read up on Gresham's Law. I took economics at the University of Texas. We don't want old tried and true laws twisted into any fashion here in the south. Its true about what Orwell said and lexicon of the language being twisted to mean the opposite. Thats how the word liberal became something bad, when prior it was free marketers/free trade. Just how do you suppose the UAW came to be something bad to the society?
If we arbitrarily command (by fiat) that all workers should be paid the same regardless the productivity of each, the "good ones" who are worth more will exit the system, and the "bad ones" who are worth less than the command price will have an incentive to stay.
So, if I do twice as much as my peer on the job, will management pay me twice as much? They are in fact only paying for one set of benefits and therefore much better off as they having to hire two employees to equal my production.
So f I can work circles around my other UAW factory worker, why should I? Will the Union fight for double the salary because I can eliminate one or even 2 of my disinterested counterparts?
Fughedaboudit! I slow down to the going rate! That's progress for ya!
Regards,
OW
I didn't think it would happen in my lifetime, an African American as president. If that isn't the American dream or nightmare if your among the GOP, what is?
They'll never quit envying what others are making.
At most non union and union plants the pay is kept secret and discussion about pay are not topics of conversation. For the same reason we have a problem here about what others get, envy.
predicting what they would do to take care of their own family
This all reeks of another great depression. Then your predicting that the banks will have to ask for more in bail-outs?
Are you saying that's all UAW members good for? That no re-organized carmaker or new carmaker or any maker of anything else would ever hire an ex-UAW member?
No, I personally believe that China will come in and see this as an opportunity to buy the plants at a fire sale. Besides, they were very prudent to invest in T-bills as the fools let their money ride on the market. Just who do you thik the UAW members are? They are no different that you or I. But, all I was saying is that the 7% unemployment is not the truth, when it excludes two groups of people whom are either unemployed and or under employed.
If consumers are forced to overpay for cars, they will have less money left to pay for the fruits of other people's labor. As simple as that. UAW demanding higher wages is in effect ripping off other workers in other industries. Price mechanism is a matter of everyone voting with his/her wallet regarding what's more important. Union is about coercing someone else to pay more; like your contempt for consumer choice indicated.
[But we also recognize that we cannot have a functioning and civil society in which auto workers get paid only what unfettered market forces will deliver to them. ]
Speak for yourself please. I never recognized such nonsense. Why should cab driver be unprotected? Why should horse cab drivers be unprotected?
"CEOs achieve the same thing by way of the disgraceful corporate governance practices we use. Hedge fund managers basically sucker people into paying them on an absurd compensation scheme. "
Yes, I'm against high pay for CEO's of government agencies. Hedge funds do not manage tax money. I'm against bailout of hedge funds too. If UAW can con people into paying out of their own pockets instead of trying to get tax money, I'd have no problem with UAW.
[You say unions started for a good reason.]
I Never said such a thing. Sorry.
[Now the debtors are saying, guess what, you won't let us extract enough wages out of the economy to make a living, so f- you, we are not going to pay our mortgage and our credit card bills. ]
Yep, tough luck on the creditors who lent to the borrowers. The very justification for the high interest rate on unsecured loans is that this kind default risk exist. So, it's time for the creditors who were the enablers of irresponsible borrowing to pay up.
[Banning the unions won't solve the underlying problem]
Union members are free to maintain their club at their own expense if they wish, just stop brandishing the baseball bats, and stop occupying plants when the property owners ask them to leave.
[I don't know what the answer is. . . .If someone follows the rules and works hard, shouldn't they be able to have a reasonable standard of living in the richest country that has every existed on the planet? ]
Yes, from a competing employer. Just like Ford had to wage in 1914 to more than double the unionized coal mine wages in order to keep his workers. Workers had alternatives at other factories, that's why they left Ford after finding out how demanding and boring it was to work on the moving production line. Ford's method was more productive, so he could afford to pay more . . . more than double the prevailing wage, even compared to the unionized coal mines at that time.
". . . unless we as a society are willing to just allow the least skilled among us to live in poverty and squalor as they compete with one another for the crumbs we are willing to throw to them . . ."
Keep that thought in mind when the next time replacement workers show up to take a job that pays more than their previous job would. The story that unions keeping workers out of poverty and squalor is a fiction; the reality is that unions try to keep non-union workers in poverty and squalor by physically threat and intimidate replacement workers who are chumping at the bits for an improvement in living standard.
"I have always been a believer in free market and the invisible hand and low taxes and all the rest."
I doubt that very much, given your contempt for consumer choice, and given your ealier glorifed recollection of government agencies having invented everything. Don't take me wrong, it's not an insult to you personally. Most people coming out government schools probably think the same way too . . . it takes time and exposure to the reality to get many of the misconceptions corrected.
I've seen people who lived trough the great depression. They seem to be tight misers and generally wouldn't fuel an economy.
People deserve nothing unless they earn it, and I've yet to see UAW do that. Death imo will fix this. I believe this is the only way to make these people competent again, not rising minimum wage (that will spoil them even more).
I agree to some extent. However, I've worked with many that through of their own are burden to society. The mentally challenged, I've seen in the Special Olympics, come to mind as wards of our society. Surely you have some compassion and some heart?
Yes, and it's hardly a prediction, as they are asking more this weekend . . . probably an ongoing process until we either cut off the bailout, or the bailout reach $10-20 trillion! The UK bailout tag is already in excess of double their country's GDP. I'm talking about Britain here, not some third-world country. Bailouts create new problems that will require further bailouts. Italian soft cheese makers are asking for bailouts after hard cheese makers got the bailout and bid up milk prices. That's the hopeless nature of government bailouts; also called central planning.
"Just who do you thik the UAW members are? They are no different that you or I. "
Precisely! They are individual human beings perfectly capable of doing the calculation on what's best for him/herself. If I'm a productive person and can make more than union pay, I would look for job elsewhere. If on the other hand, the union pay guarantees a pay that is higher than anywhere else either due to my own lack of skills or lack of work ethics, I'd stay. Wouldn't you do the same?
Exactly. See my post about his style. He posts long philosophical diversions, never answering the actual question. The "diversion" tactic is common when one really has no argument.
Interesting thought! Goldfinger himself, perhaps!
And agreeing to a wage cut in keeping with monetary contraction would have a much better chance of keeping the job indeed.
"This leads to the question of the entire society reducing its wages. Only because half of the pay could buy us just as much. FORGET it this is no race to the bottom and we don't need to compete with obscene wages of the third world."
This has nothing to do with race to the bottom or the third world. To give you a magnitude comparison: our stock market was down close to 50% at the November trough, and market clearing prices for cars are probably down 30% or so (with cars that previously sold for $15k liquidating for $11k or so) . . . back in 1929-32, the stock market lost close to 90% peak to trough, and cars previously sold for $500 were only clearing for $180, close to a 60% drop. Nominal wage cuts had to be done in severe monetary contractions like that; the alternative is joblessness indeed.
"Did the banks reduce mortgage/car payments in half also?"
That's why over-extending oneself in borrowing is a terrible idea. On the other hand, the lenders who lent to weak borrowers and did not have enough collateral also paid the price for their bad business decisions.
"Maybe, we should pay the bank interest to hold our money?"
As well should in a full-reserve banking system, as we would pay a storage fee. In a fractional-reserve system we are paid interest because the bank is out there taking risks "multiplying" money in a bubble. When the bubble bursts, watch out below. It's a little like renting out the lawnmower for fee; yes, for a time your neighborhood may feel like there are more than one lawnmower, many lawns look pretty and you are collecting a fee for it. One day, the lawnmower is going to come back broken, and there is no working lawnmower in the neighborhood. Just make sure you have collected enough fees to pay for a new one.
Rather silly to have those in the same sentence. You fail to see that the company signed the very same contract which the union did. They had no gun to their head and or no one was twisting their arm. This was choice and your all for not living up to one choices, such as the mortgage contract, as you abdicate personal responsibility.
Why should cab driver be unprotected? Why should horse cab drivers be unprotected?
They can if they so choose to.
If UAW can con people into paying out of their own pockets instead of trying to get tax money, I'd have no problem with UAW.
So is the UAW going to declare bankruptcy? No, they are solvent. Its just not kosher to big other sub sets of folks into the problems of the one. GM is a separate entity as defined by law. So should we bring suppliers or others too?
Yep, tough luck on the creditors who lent to the borrowers.
Great, so is there an end to all of this?
Union members are free to maintain their club at their own expense if they wish
Has it ever been at another's expense?
Just like Ford had to wage in 1914 to more than double the unionized coal mine wages in order to keep his workers
Just who is going to buy these cars? All of the jobs/capital will move to their most efficient use (China) and you will be left with a third world economy at best. We currently buy the most autos on the planet as a nation.
the reality is that unions try to keep non-union workers in poverty and squalor by physically threat and intimidate replacement workers who are chumping at the bits for an improvement in living standard.
Where ever did you get this? Its almost comical.
Most people coming out government schools probably think the same way too . . . it takes time and exposure to the reality to get many of the misconceptions corrected.
So tainted milk or some other tort by private industry is not too big a deal? I hear that some of those in China will be executed for their transgressions, is that true?
GM management signed the agreement under threat of a plant shutdown. Baseball bats and guns probably had something to do with the succession of GM management being so spineless and seemingly incompetent in dealings with UAW. The ultimate victims are UAW members, especially retirees, though, as companies are limited liability entities, and they can go bankrupt and have all their liaibilities removed.
"So is the UAW going to declare bankruptcy? "
Is it? Have you seen its balance sheet?
"Great, so is there an end to all of this? "
Can be reduced, but not an end, as people are human beings, and make mistakes. Having the lender suck up and pay for its own mistakes however is a strong incentive not to make the same kind of mistakes again next time.
"Just who is going to buy these cars? All of the jobs/capital will move to their most efficient use (China) and you will be left with a third world economy at best. We currently buy the most autos on the planet as a nation. "
Did New York City starve to death after Manhatten farm lands were abandonned due to cheap import food from the midwest via the Erie Canal? There are many things that Chinese don't do well. Besides, you can't be arguing that their currency is artificially low and accuse them of having extremely low living standards at the same time. The purchase-power parity income of a worker working for GM China is actually not much lower than that of the transplants in the US. That's why the production lines were able to attract college graduates as line workers.
"Where ever did you get this? Its almost comical. "
Do you deny that UAW have always been vehemently against "scabs"? Do you deny that "scabs" show up because the job pays more than their previous jobs? Use some logic please. "Scabs" are people too, and perfectly capable of analysing for their own benefit, just like UAW members can, and you and I can.
"So tainted milk or some other tort by private industry is not too big a deal? I hear that some of those in China will be executed for their transgressions, is that true?"
China has an FDA that employs 200,000 bureacrats, about 1000 times that of the USFDA. Yes, unlike our former FDA head serving jail time, theirs was executed. The crimes had nothing to do milk per se, both were taking bribes from drug companies. It seems to me, the bigger the regulating agency, the more unsafe the products are. Not entirely illogical, as regulators are much more susceptible to bribes than consumers are when making choices spending their own money.
Like I mentioned before, I'm not into personal insults. You asked the specific question, and I gave the specific answer, in as few letters as possible.
"So, if I do twice as much as my peer on the job, will management pay me twice as much? They are in fact only paying for one set of benefits and therefore much better off as they having to hire two employees to equal my production. "
In the absence of UAW pay scale, you should talk to your management and demand higher pay, with a higher pay offer from a different employer in your pocket. I pay my productive workers much more than the less productive ones. That's the only way to keep them from jumping ship.