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Comments
In the US, the uninsured and underinsured are usually taken care of regardless of their ability to pay. That's not to say they get regular checkups and other preventive procedures that could nip a serious condition in the bud, but if someone shows up in the ER with a broken arm or complaining of chest pains, they will be seen and taken care of, eventually. When they don't/can't pay, the cost for their care is either picked up by the government or the hospital just eats it, which really means the cost is passed on to all the other paying users in the form of higher rates.
Those over 65 are eligible for Medicare (taxpayer provided) coverage.
Like he said, there is no free lunch.
Our company health care plan pays us $250 a year to join a gym and $150 a year if we don't smoke. What do they know, that we don't know? I'm not saying that we should go the way of Canada as a model for our system. I'm sure we can come up with a leaner/better system. The current system will be taxed to take care of the baby boomer's population as they all go into their golden years. Its absurd to think that more folks will receive health care in the near future. The county hospitals will be mailing out taxpayers bills for those without coverage. A "free clinic" would more cost effective than an emergency room to take care of routine health care issues.
I think that is pretty well established. The question is why should I pay $1500 more for a vehicle because the UAW and GM made a stupid agreement to provide healthcare to retirees? Worse yet, why should tax payer be saddled with that bill when they don't even like GM vehicles?
the Japanese are the longest-lived people in the world -- but guess who pays for healthcare in Japan? The Japanese government.
That may be true. And the Japanese government is in worse financial condition than the USA. Plus if not for the trade imbalance with the USA they would be moving back into the caves. They have nothing to sustain their socialist programs except US. And we are broke.
at more than $7,000 per capita, were the highest in the developed world. Yet despite that level of spending, more than 45 million people in this country are uninsured; more than one million in Michigan.
And, what is your point? Why should I pay for health care for some one that is capable of paying their own? Do you think we should try and bankrupt the country like Iceland, Japan, Germany, UK etc are all headed? Giving every one health coverage for free is NOT sustainable. Several states have tried it and failed. What makes you think the Feds can do any better?
Do we wait until all of the companies are gone before we act?
We let the weak companies die and a stronger company will take its place. We will gain MFG if we are competitive. Not all off shoring has been successful. Much is coming back. Our standard of living will have to be diluted to compete in the World. There is NO OTHER OPTION.... Union entitlement is dead or soon will be.
Wages would be at the market rate and productivity would be rewarded individually in salaries as well as meeting Quality/Productivity goals as a group as a group incentive.
Regards,
OW
Good stuff, indeed.
Regards,
OW
I think that your having to pay for indigents at the local county hospital as it is. Why can't you accept the fact that there is a more cost effective manner. which may reduce your tax bill and or cover more folks?
And the Japanese government is in worse financial condition than the USA.
More due to the fact of the "Lost Decade" and they going through a situation much like ours today. They undertook the same infrastructure project during their bail out years. I forget the title of the book which was espousing our following the Japan model back in the 80s. Its as they were supposedly the ideal form govt.
Do you think we should try and bankrupt the country like Iceland, Japan, Germany, UK etc are all headed?
Define bankruptcy of a country? Since govt's print the money, they can pay. The question is the inflation rate if they over print money and or if the money supply is excessive. Then the purchasing power of such currency is suspect at best. We have done that and will soon see its effects. There is a time lag between a loose money supply policy and when inflation kicks in. Your social security check has a cost of living adjustment and banks will raise interest rates to reflect the factoring in of the rate of inflation. When that day comes, the FED will have to raise interest rates and there will be another time lag to slow down the economy. Remember that inflation is defined as too much money chasing too few goods.
We will gain MFG if we are competitive. Not all off shoring has been successful. Much is coming back. Our standard of living will have to be diluted to compete in the World. There is NO OTHER OPTION.... Union entitlement is dead or soon will be.
This is a come and go situation. The weaker dollar is supposedly going to make exports look more attractive and hence, more manufacturing will move to America. In the end, globalization will make the so called parity of wages a non factor in the moving of corporations. Union entitlement is what? Unions do keep the prevailing wages up and hence even the non union workers benefit. I'm not too sure that our standard of living will be headed south. Sure hope not. Its gotten better for each and every generation as technology gets better and better. At one time 95% of the population was working the farm working, today it takes less than 5% of the population to provide the food. We have a 40 work week. We have all sorts of things to save us time and provide entertainment. It use to take months to get across the ocean, today it can be done in hours. We have hundreds of television channels, internet, IPOD's, movie rentals, cell phones, Video games, and other things to amuse this current generation. Then they have the nerve to say " I'm bored".
Hawaii has that. It takes forever to see a Physician's Assistant. Rather than wait 30 days I went to a pay clinic and it cost me $30 to see a real Dr. I had an infection around some stitches and did not think it wise to wait 30 days. Kona in the early 1980s did not have a hospital with ER. I think that a government sponsored free clinic would be a horrible idea. If people cannot pay why should the tax payers pay for them? Many just have other priorities. You don't work you starve. Same should go for medical, housing, electricity etc. We cannot subsidize all those that are unwilling to work.
Yes, when a guy comes into ER with a gunshot wound or knifing from a drug deal gone bad. If he does not have insurance boot him out. Saving him is weakening the gene pool. 911 calls should be able to determine if the caller has insurance. No insurance no response. Why is that so hard for you to accept? I know why because your UAW background is one of entitlement. You are entitled to a high standard of living whether you work or not. Whether you contribute to America or just sit in a rubber room eating donuts and reading the funny papers. Weeding out the non productive people in society is not a bad thing. If a person is injured defending our country I believe we have the responsibility to take care of him. I don't feel that way about someone that made the decision to do drugs and is dying as a result. Much of the $7000 per capita is used to take care of people that have screwed up their own lives and expect the rest of US to pay. The UAW has contributed to screwing up the Domestic auto industry and I do not feel at all compelled to bail them out. They did not put their life on the line to protect me. I would not have shut off the veterans electricity up in Michigan. Sounds like a real compassionate state. In Alaska they cannot cut off your heat until warm weather comes around.
There are many Americans who are self employed and in very small businesses who have been buying their own health insurance for years. Some of these, such as barbers, hairdressers, landscapers, independent mechanics, flooring contractors, etc, have to buy their own health insurance. Would guess that many of these have less yearly income than UAW workers. If many self-employed Americans already budget and buy their own insurance, so too can UAW workers. Then, GM and the other 2 can claim that their costs to produce cars are at parity with the foreign brands in the US.
You are dreaming if you think these spoiled UAW guys would settle for any kind of universal health care. I have not read anything about any country where the level of care is matched by ours in the USA. Just like the UAW we are spoiled by getting appointments on a timely basis. Though it has gotten worse. I did call Kaiser for a physical last Wednesday and was in for all the preliminary tests and blood work last Friday. Surprised me and it only cost $20. My last physical under the Teamsters was $300 for just the blood work. So there is room for improvement in our health care providers. Free is bad. A small charge is better and gives people a sense of paying their own way.
Those who can't pay are not obviously UAW members and or their family. Since, they have insurance. So what its one of those children who wasn't aborted? Say a two year old. who had a mother who heeded the compassionate conservative advise and gave birth? Then what? Or if the Social Security/Medicare was abolished and Madoff took all of your pension/401K and you were penniless? Then what?
That would be a game changer and all of the sudden the transplants/imports would be having to compete on a level playing field. The UAW would be on offense and they would be on defense as the American spirit would be felt around the nation.
You are confusing coincidence with correlation... The attached link says that the reason Japanese people live longer is because they eat so much fish..... Maybe the government should just order you to eat fish twice a day !
http://umhc.com/Newsletters.asp?PageID=P09474
??? Are you dreaming Steve? Is this all some kinda Dallas? From 2003:
In the pages of Solidarity, the UAW’s magazine, and recently at the Detroit Economic Forum, UAW head Ron Gettlefinger spoke bluntly about the significance of health care.
“A lot of people are curious about how we are going to solve the problem of rising health care costs during this year’s auto talks,” Gettlefinger told the Detroit Economic Club. “The answer is we’re not. It’s a national problem that demands a national solution.”
Gettlefinger and the UAW have long stood by the demand for a universal, comprehensive single-payer health care program. “You can’t fix the health-care crisis at the bargaining table,” Gettlefinger insisted.
http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/3363/
I thought that was GOD's job? So what makes you so productive? What did you produce this year? Last year? Last five years?
Another thought. If we had universal health care it would also benefit the foreign auto makers in the USA. We would be in the same situation. Better quality from the import brands via lower wages. You can bet if GM was to get a windfall by unloading health care costs, the UAW would be striking to get that money in wages.
You must know that is not true. GM and the domestics have so many more employees than the imports that it would make a huge difference. Now I am talking more than the people at the plants. The Engineering/corporate staffs are so much larger for the domestics because most of the imports counterparts are in Japan.
Joe the plumber said about $150,000 is the wages of the small plumbing contractor. Then if they didn't have to dole out the $700 a month for insurance they would get a large raise from national health care. Did you ask them if they were for national health care?
Fact is that employers are for national health care as they have seen the obscene rise of insurance premiums.
I would go back to work. Like my step dad that had to drive school bus at 75 years old because he could not survive on his SS. People are living longer they should work longer. I would have stayed working. The simple truth my retirement was more than I was making on the job. Kind of a no brainer for me. I have a friend that put in so many hours by 52 he had a bigger retirement than his wages as an Operating Engineer. I have no problem going back to work at 65 if I needed to survive. I have no cola on my pension so who knows what the future may bring.
That should be obvious. They know that the working class will pay the bill with higher taxes. Only the rich and the poor will benefit from universal health care. The working stiff will get shafted and have worse health care than they have now. That includes the misguided UAW people that think there is a free lunch.
I never said/argued it was their health care that provided them this longevity, but rather that they were living longer and hence cost the "system" more as a whole. Besides, they have to pay and arm and a leg for that steak VETT is eating.
Another point is that there is no waving a magic wand and implementing national health care overnight. Even if you passed legislation tomorrow, it would take roughly 5 years to implement.
1. First the system has to be designed... and there is plenty to be decided. Am I going to have to give up my private insurance? For that matter are UAW workers going to give up theirs and go to the basic minimum insurance?
2. You have to figure out the costs and the share for each taxpayer
3. You have to start collecting those funds.
4. You have to start distributing those funds.
It goes on and on.... Saying " Nationalized Health Care is GM's solution" is a lot like saying "Visualizing World Peace is the Israel's solution". It's probably true but there are a lot of details to sort out before we get there....
Why should we deny them, what they have in the mother land? This isn't some kind of penal colony, is it?
I thought the GM white collars were already paying their own health care. Another thing that has not been pointed out here. Under the Obama plan those working will have to pay a monthly premium. The only free lunch is for those considered poverty level. So the UAW worker will pick up his own health care and a few of the 46 million uninsured. Anyone that thinks otherwise is delusional. My current $126 per month for Medicare, that I paid for during much of my 46 year career, is cheap compared to what Obama will nick the worker bees.
Those old guys from that era were something. They walked to school, 50 miles each way in the snow, up hill both ways.
My dad said it was 6 miles. However he did drive school bus in Roswell NM for minimum wage for a couple years till they moved up with my step sister in Albuquerque. Not everyone was born into the UAW with that golden spoon.
Your first step will be to fight all of those who benefit from a skewed system as is the present system. Managed care will be the 33 cents of each dollar losers. Drug makers will also put up a fight. All parties will have to sit down and agree to something they can live with. Very much like a UAW collective bargaining agreement. I'm sure that it can be tuned and tweaked as needed. The bottom line is to use the system in a manner which better utilizes resources and limits waste.
Either GM managements are dumb or they think we're dumb. When they announced that Saturn stays for anothe 3 years, I believe the right translations is: we're unable to find a buyer for the brand, or we're trying to make it look as if we're getting stronger so hopefully potential consumers can be fooled by that.
My nephew lives in Canada. He works with Husky Machine Tools out there. Last year he came to visit me and discover opportunities out in the DFW area. He got about 5 calls daily for an interview. After going through all of them, he decided not to move to the US because after taking into consideration Salary +medical insurance, etc he figured he was better off in Canada.
Regards,
OW
There is more than enough waste to offset the indigent population. A third of each dollar already goes to managed care, which adds no value whatsoever. This compared to the 14 cents which Medicare spends on administrative is just the beginning of the savings.
You have to look it as a service and never-mind the GOD like image of doctors. It comes down to supply and demand as every other service in the economy. Fact is that when medicine was socialized in Great Britain, doctors started migrating to America. It was called the brain drain. They came here for the money. So just do away with the persona that these folks care more about you than their money. In fact they have a lobby to watch out for their special interests, as do the drug companies, and managed care. All we need is some time to get past this baby boomer generation, which if left unchecked will tax the system and the taxpayer to no end. This is evident in the social security system and has little to do with indigents (drug dealers or not) costs. Most of these youth indigents are for the most part young and in relatively good health. However, there will be some situations in which this young indigent population uses the medical services, but as a percentage of GNP they are negligible in comparison to the geriatric population.
I highly doubt any manufacturing will consider America a first choice even with the weaker dollar. Labor costs are just way too high compared to many other countries. Weakening dollar is insignificant, unless US is their only market or a major market with no other major alternative. I believe this is why more and more manufacturers move to China despite the weaker dollar, the market is narrowing here, while costs keep creeping up. Totally ineffective and inefficient.
What do you mean union entitlement is what? Do you see more and more non-union workers demanding the same pay as the unions'? If so, then prepare for US to become even less competitive and appealing to many. Honestly I don't see the UAW doing any good for this country, but maybe that's just me.
Our standard of living may not be heading south now, but if US really wish to become a globally competitive market once again like it or not we're going south in standards. We just have to, there's no way to both increase our standard (via increasing minimum wage, etc...) and become competitive at the same time.
Besides, what do you see as our current living standards? The UAW standards? As more and more UAW workers file for bankruptcy it's so darn obvious that their "living standard" is actually "living dream".
Do anyone still insist on living the American dream? If so then I'm out of words for them. :sick:
Excellent idea with only one major problem: the government can't afford it, not with trillions of debt in their hands :sick:
Note that the UAW currently demands that GM (and the other domestic automakers) supplement Medicare coverage with costly company provided plans. There is no reason to believe that the UAW will not continue this demand if nationalized care is enacted. The cost gap will thus still be present - just smaller.
Unions were intially opposed to the Hillary Clinton plan because it specificially forbade any entity from purchasing supplemental insurance (as the Canadian national plan did, until some Canadians sued for the right to purchase private insurance - and won).
Not me! I gave up on the American dream and am working 24/7 for 25 cents an hour and living on rice and water and sleeping on a flattened cardboard box under I-95.
Dallas: I thought that was GOD's job? So what makes you so productive? What did you produce this year? Last year? Last five years?
Life does the weeding out, as god intended imo. And from what I see the natural selection says it's time for UAW to extinct. When something is too tainted, no matter how pure it used to be, there is only death ahead. UAW may have started with goodwill in their mission, but not anymore. It's been long tainted by greedy and lazy people slowly infecting others and dishing out those who're immune. Productivity is doomed under their "care", as well as competitiveness and improvement.
It's no use asking others to show you how competitive they are. Competitive is different by each work's standards, and surely you're not trying to level them all together right?
The transplants certainly did move here. You forget we are the number one consumer nation. The weak dollar also means that imports will be more expensive. I'm looking at the long run. Right now, the world has the flu, as America has sneezed first.
Do you see more and more non-union workers demanding the same pay as the unions'?
Its no secret, well it was, until a Toyota leak about their looking at resetting the hourly wages way below the UAW. The fact is that in order to keep the union out, they have to meet some unwritten standard in the hourly wage. Then too they have competition from other companies for workers. To assume they have total control of wages is just refuting the economic law. Almost like telling an employee that he/she has no right to apply across the street. Like everything in a capitalist system, price/wage is the rationing mechanism.
Our standard of living may not be heading south now, but if US really wish to become a globally competitive market once again like it or not we're going south in standards.
Again, we are the number one consumer nation on the planet and Japan is number two. That is we are the consumers too. So what we opt for in the market place is what it is. If you kill the wage earner and or their ability to buy, then you have a problem. So to lower the standard of living for the American public is the same as lowering the American publics purchasing power. Then there is technology which always surprises as the mechanization of the farm is evident eons ago. Indoor plumbing, silverware, microwave ovens, washer/dryer, and so much more. How did they ever manage back way then?
As more and more UAW workers file for bankruptcy it's so darn obvious that their "living standard" is actually "living dream".
Your confused, Bill Gates, is living the dream. Thats the American dream and we all have that chance/opportunity in this country. Thats why this country is great. From humble beginnings a man/woman can aspire to great things. The Goolge's boys did the same. T Boon Picken did it too. Warren Buffet is certainly in that group. The list is endless.
To assume that two cars, a boat, and a middle class home is the American dream is just not going to make it so. However, it is a good standard of living and we should aspire to move all Americans into this middle class status. I'm certain that will be the norm in future generations.
Sure, Dallas. The things is Bill and many others on the list have something many others dont, let's see: umm, talent? true skills? higher education? You're giving too high of an example there.
My belief is they're not living a dream, it's their reality now. A dream is just a dream, and honestly not too many people can achieve what those people you mentioned did. Yes it all started with a dream, but only a select few will ever be there, that's life.
"To assume that two cars, a boat, and a middle class home is the American dream is just not going to make it so. However, it is a good standard of living and we should aspire to move all Americans into this middle class status. I'm certain that will be the norm in future generations."
Then our future generation is going down the drain in mentality. They'll be even more spoiled than current generation, which leads to total social destruction imo.
I sure as hell will never aspire to move everybody to this status. It's meant for those who earn it, period. My norm is: the moment you think you're entitled for something without earning it, it's the end of your motivation.
You reckon that we was better off as slaves/indentured servants? Them radical ideas of the UAW had wasn't suppose to last but a year, two years tops. How do you figure? The master got the workers to get rid of the institution by and for the workers? Hmmm!!! Oh well, I'm off to the company store....Walmart
Bill Gates and Mike Dell dropped out of college. They still had their vision and aspired to change the world. They merit what they got. I don't envy them for their good fortune. Fact is we should strive to do what we see fitting as long as it doesn't hurt anyones "pursuit of happiness" in life and if the money comes, so be it.
Where on earth did that come from? In Ohio my wife's coworkers were paying hundreds as their 20% of healthcare coverage.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My, my. You're missing the point again, it doesn't have to be all of the above I mentioned. Gates and Dell dropped out of college, but they have talent and true skills, something not everyone got. Some have talent, others have brains or skills.
"Fact is we should strive to do what we see fitting as long as it doesn't hurt anyones "pursuit of happiness" in life and if the money comes, so be it."
You can't, one's pursuit of happiness will most likely, at least once, crush someone else's pursuit. That's life, harsh, I know, but reality is always harsh.
Put it this way, indirectly the pursuit of assembly workers for even higher pay have crushed the engineers' dream of better pay for their efforts. Or when a company relocate to the south for lower operational costs, it's crushed the dreams of the workers up north.
To equalize everyone's level of pursuit, I don't mean to attack you or anything, but don't you think you're starting to sound like a socialist there?
You still think what was the intent 70 years ago matters? Still fighting against the Vanderbilts and other tycoons? Well that's fine if you or the UAW wants to. get all you can from GM, Ford and Chrysler. Basically bankrupt them as far as I care... oh sorry you've already done that. Not satisfied with that, an economic storm now arrives (bad timing for the D3 and UAW), and now you want the average working man to subsidize your above-average living standard?!
What the UAW and the decisions of the D3 management have done is spend too much. The safe has been emptied over the years, and now no one will loan this group more $ because they are spending more then they take in, and show no motivation or competence in reversing this overspending.
Again you fail to recognize that the UAW/D3 issue is exactly that. You guys can negotiate all you want, and can move the money from the left pocket to the right pocket to the back pocket. I really don't care what the D3 does with their income. The rest of us have a problem when everyone involved in the UAW/D3 "household" come begging for money from the rest of us. Then we say you're taking too much.
If my neighbors have $5,000/month income, and the kids get $500/month allowance and hobby-money, but their bills are $6,000 month, then I'm not feeling obligated to loan them money. Too bad if the parents spend $5,500 and the kids "expect" to get $500/month. That issue is for them to work out, not me. I'd suggest to that family that as a group they need to sit down asap and cut their costs to $5,000/month. If the family can't agree and fight each other, then they go bankrupt.
If the pursuit of the engineers to better compensation is the issue, they need to go elsewhere, since this is a free market for labor. They should have joined the UAW when they were benefiting from the UAW contracts, the employer matching the prevailing rate for a given area. Now they are being cut, mercilessly. Hope they saved up those union dues, because they need them now. Its pathetic that they cry now and we can see that they failed to look ahead. If they were covered under a collective bargaining agreement ("contract") this wouldn't be an issue, because now we know that the "company" isn't above cutting anyones compensation. Now that the economy is bad they want protection. Oh, please, they are but employee's at will. They had a chance/opportunity to get representation and know what we know now they certainly wish they had. Hind sight is 20-20 and these folks made a mistake and now are having to pay for their mistake.
Should you say that those engineers should join UAW, that means it's no longer free will, and you'd crush the happiness of those who don't want to join.
Plus, like it or not in the end the UAW DOES crush other's pursuit in the process of getting to their goals, you can't deny it anymore. In the free market trampling on others is unavoidable, and your support for UAW simply contradicts your own ideals. What happened to pursuit your happiness as long as it doesn't crush others'?
This is the point I'm trying to make, you said everyone should be aspired to pursue their happiness without crushing other people's pursuit, which means you actually support this idea. However at the same time you bank on UAW to gain more while crushing engineers' goals. I told you this is impossible, and judging from your own post I believe I'm right.
How do you support something that contradicts your own ideals? Makes no sense to me.
You need to vent to the proper folks who got us into this whole mess. Oh, I forgot, we the taxpayers/voters/UAW send them their pink slips. Besides, I'm in aerospace/defense, and business is great. However, I'm not too stupid to see the mess deregulation has caused. I'm also smart enough to realize that the UAW isn't the only one in the middle of this entire Wall Street disaster. The consumer isn't buying. The fewer consumers, the less buying, the slower the recovery. So now more than ever we need to stay away from the consumers pocket and remove any panic about future unemployment. We need to see that the UAW is a good target for all of your woes and the corporate media outlets want it that way.
What the UAW and the decisions of the D3 management have done is spend too much. The safe has been emptied over the years, and now no one will loan this group more $ because they are spending more then they take in, and show no motivation or competence in reversing this overspending.
The UAW derives its income from dues paying members and the auto makers/shareholders call the shot as to what is wise on spending on autos making. You fail to see, that the UAW signed a contract. They didn't hold a gun to managements head and or twist managements arm. They did it of their own free will, both parties. Again your venting to the wrong people. Its not the negotiators job to look out for the companies best interest, just the UAW memberships best interest. trust me the companies have very able folks looking out for their interests, because they have deep pockets.
Again you fail to recognize that the UAW/D3 issue is exactly that. You guys can negotiate all you want, and can move the money from the left pocket to the right pocket to the back pocket. I really don't care what the D3 does with their income. The rest of us have a problem when everyone involved in the UAW/D3 "household" come begging for money from the rest of us. Then we say you're taking too much.
Did you have any input into the Wall Street bail out? I thought not, so why should the UAW pay for the bail out Wall Street got? If you got an STD from Wall Street, The entire nation will soon get the very same STD.
If my neighbors have $5,000/month income, and the kids get $500/month allowance and hobby-money, but their bills are $6,000 month, then I'm not feeling obligated to loan them money. Too bad if the parents spend $5,500 and the kids "expect" to get $500/month. That issue is for them to work out, not me. I'd suggest to that family that as a group they need to sit down asap and cut their costs to $5,000/month. If the family can't agree and fight each other, then they go bankrupt.
You got the issue is for them to work out. Its the first thing you say that makes any sense. However, your missing the point that you pay in either case. If a company folds. Someone, the taxpayers get to pay for their, (UAW membership/suppliers/all those whom they buy from) unemployment benefits, pensions, and medical expenses at the county hospital. They just make you pay either way, bail out or no bail out. The fewer auto companies out there, the less consumer has, the less competition, the more the consumer pays. You even fail to see that some have called for an "orderly bankruptcy". What other kinds are there?
And somebody earlier in this thread was asking why more young people don't chose engineering as a career. It's like you said - the company is cutting because it can and the employee has little recourse short of moving on. When enough people do that, the company may change it's way of thinking.